---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/23/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:05 AM - Re: Heat boxes for RV-4 (Paul Besing) 2. 06:37 AM - Step crack (Ron Lee) 3. 10:13 AM - Re: Step crack (Chuck Weyant) 4. 11:02 AM - Re: Step crack (Bret Smith) 5. 11:11 AM - Re: Step crack (Chuck Jensen) 6. 01:01 PM - Re: Step crack (Bob J.) 7. 01:15 PM - Re: Step crack (John W. Cox) 8. 02:49 PM - Re: Step crack (Ron Lee) 9. 06:27 PM - Re: Step crack (David Burton) 10. 06:52 PM - Re: Step crack (Ron Lee) 11. 08:56 PM - Hangar in Socal and Bay area? (Paul Besing) 12. 09:05 PM - "News to me!" (Paul Besing) 13. 09:38 PM - Re: Hangar in Socal and Bay area? (pittss1@aol.com) 14. 11:43 PM - Re: "News to me!" (Doug Gray) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:37 AM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 Yes, definitely good volume. The heat may have a little too much, but it works for sure. The fresh air is a little pre heated though. I suspect its because the hot air doesn't have anywhere to vent off of the Y tube and it's preheating the tube and leaking some hot air into it. Paul Besing ----- Original Message ---- From: "halbenjamin@optonline.net" Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:50:41 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 Hi Paul, Thanks for the update. I'm going to try it as well. Do you get a good volume of air flow? Hal ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Besing Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 > Update....installed and flew the "Y" selector box from Van's. > Works as advertised. I just use one part of it, only using one > cable. The heat works with my robbins muff, but isn't as warm > as I would like. I don't fault the selector box for that, just > the airflow/springs/etc etc that have been in the archives. > Just need the right volume of air/temperature combination. > > Recommend the "Y" box.works perfectly. I can't see a need for > the second valve they include with it. I left mine out. Also, > I have it plumbed directly into my air vents on either side, > just below the panel. > > Paul Besing > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "halbenjamin@optonline.net" > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 8:16:08 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 > > > Thanks Paul. > > > > Hal Benjamin > > Do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Besing > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 12:53 am > Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > Not yet...but it's dead center behind the engine, about 4-6 > > inches from the top of the firewall. That goes into a box on > > the cabin side of the firewall with two outlets going to the > air > > vents. > > I will try to get some pics soon. > > > > Paul Besing > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "halbenjamin@optonline.net" > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 7:42:01 PM > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 > > > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > > > > > I'm working figuring out where to install all this stuff on > the > > firewall, do you have any pictures of your installation? > > > > > > > > Hal > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul Besing > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2008 10:51 am > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat boxes for RV-4 > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > > > Installation was pretty easy. I had a scat tube running from > > > the baffles to the firewall, into a box that splits to two > > scat > > > tubes going to the air vents, just below the panel on either > > > side of the fuselage. I simply plugged that box into the > > > firewall box, connected a cable and the heater tube. Haven't > > > used it yet, so I'm not sure how it's gonna work, but should > > be > > > flying in a few days. > > > > > > My biggest concern is there is no place to vent the heat > > > overboard. It's going to pre heat the mixer tube I imagine, > > > which might effect the temperature of cool air going in.. > > We'll see. > > > > > > Paul Besing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:03 AM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: RV-List: Step crack While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded and somehow have that area reinforced. I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:23 AM PST US From: "Chuck Weyant" Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack This IS a big problem. Van's says they don't hear anything, therefore there isn't a problem as far as they're concerned. I beg to disagree with them. I had one step crack in the same identical spot as yours Lee (I built a 9A). Called Van's, Scott says, "Hmmm, news to me. We haven't heard of any problems with cracks." Next day a fellow "nine" driver came over with TWO cracked steps in hand off his "nine". Said Van's said the same thing to him. He ordered two additional new steps from Van's and sent them pics of the steps. A week later a "Six driver" from the other side of the airport showed up with a cracked step. All this from one little 'ol airport. Not a problem? I took it out and delivered it to a big time welding shop here on the Central Coast (Santa Maria,CA). I asked if it could be repaired, and would he reinforce it somehow? He studied the step and said he wouldn't recommend reinforcing it as making it too stiff might encourage it to crack again even quicker in a different spot. Something to do with the type of steel, thickness, and angles of attachment combined with load forces. Stuff I didn't really understand. He rewelded it from front to aft underside. I had it repowder coated and I reinstalled it. It's been more than a year ago and it's still fine. One thing I do do is to use a stool to gain access to the cockpit while in the hanger avoiding the steps altogether if possible. Chuck RV10 Finishing up the Fuselage. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: RV-List: Step crack While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded and somehow have that area reinforced. I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:29 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack I reinforced the steps in my -9A with .040 inside the fuselage. I attached a photo. However, the cracks you guys are describing are sounding like weld failures. Bret Smith RV-9A "Canopy" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Weyant To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack This IS a big problem. Van's says they don't hear anything, therefore there isn't a problem as far as they're concerned. I beg to disagree with them. I had one step crack in the same identical spot as yours Lee (I built a 9A). Called Van's, Scott says, "Hmmm, news to me. We haven't heard of any problems with cracks." Next day a fellow "nine" driver came over with TWO cracked steps in hand off his "nine". Said Van's said the same thing to him. He ordered two additional new steps from Van's and sent them pics of the steps. A week later a "Six driver" from the other side of the airport showed up with a cracked step. All this from one little 'ol airport. Not a problem? I took it out and delivered it to a big time welding shop here on the Central Coast (Santa Maria,CA). I asked if it could be repaired, and would he reinforce it somehow? He studied the step and said he wouldn't recommend reinforcing it as making it too stiff might encourage it to crack again even quicker in a different spot. Something to do with the type of steel, thickness, and angles of attachment combined with load forces. Stuff I didn't really understand. He rewelded it from front to aft underside. I had it repowder coated and I reinstalled it. It's been more than a year ago and it's still fine. One thing I do do is to use a stool to gain access to the cockpit while in the hanger avoiding the steps altogether if possible. Chuck RV10 Finishing up the Fuselage. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: RV-List: Step crack While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded and somehow have that area reinforced. I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Step crack From: "Chuck Jensen" Chuck, You make a good point. Metals, metallurgy and materials science is far more complex and requires a level of sophistication that even knowledgeable homebuilders and experimenters are unlikely to have. As they say, it is an art all by itself. When done properly the selection of metals, attachment and structure configuration is a dizzying array of possibilities to arrive at a design that is inexpensive, strong, durable and manufacturable. When done well, we never even notice. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Weyant Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack This IS a big problem. Van's says they don't hear anything, therefore there isn't a problem as far as they're concerned. I beg to disagree with them. I had one step crack in the same identical spot as yours Lee (I built a 9A). Called Van's, Scott says, "Hmmm, news to me. We haven't heard of any problems with cracks." Next day a fellow "nine" driver came over with TWO cracked steps in hand off his "nine". Said Van's said the same thing to him. He ordered two additional new steps from Van's and sent them pics of the steps. A week later a "Six driver" from the other side of the airport showed up with a cracked step. All this from one little 'ol airport. Not a problem? I took it out and delivered it to a big time welding shop here on the Central Coast (Santa Maria,CA). I asked if it could be repaired, and would he reinforce it somehow? He studied the step and said he wouldn't recommend reinforcing it as making it too stiff might encourage it to crack again even quicker in a different spot. Something to do with the type of steel, thickness, and angles of attachment combined with load forces. Stuff I didn't really understand. He rewelded it from front to aft underside. I had it repowder coated and I reinstalled it. It's been more than a year ago and it's still fine. One thing I do do is to use a stool to gain access to the cockpit while in the hanger avoiding the steps altogether if possible. Chuck RV10 Finishing up the Fuselage. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: RV-List: Step crack While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded and somehow have that area reinforced. I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:40 PM PST US From: "Bob J." Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack 4130 really is a poor choice of material for the step, the high carbon content of 4130 makes it far less ductile than other common materials such as 304 stainless. In other words, 4130 is far less tolerant of flexing. I have a source that makes streamline tubing out of 304, wouldn't be hard to make the step out of it. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. On Jan 23, 2008 9:33 AM, Ron Lee wrote: > While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount > of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a > crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of > the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. > > Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded > and somehow have that area reinforced. > > I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing > these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. > > Ron Lee > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Step crack From: "John W. Cox" Miles Towner the former Quality Control individual at VANS left when Ken Krueger saw no need for such service. He now works with me at Horizon Airlines in Portland. Eddy Current testing is not difficult to find through GA sources. Sounds like a clear pattern of failed welds is beginning to surface. It beckons the question, "What date was receipt of the step received by the builder". Maybe this is an old issue for parts shipped more than three years ago. John Cox RV10 ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Weyant Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:08 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack This IS a big problem. Van's says they don't hear anything, therefore there isn't a problem as far as they're concerned. I beg to disagree with them. I had one step crack in the same identical spot as yours Lee (I built a 9A). Called Van's, Scott says, "Hmmm, news to me. We haven't heard of any problems with cracks." Next day a fellow "nine" driver came over with TWO cracked steps in hand off his "nine". Said Van's said the same thing to him. He ordered two additional new steps from Van's and sent them pics of the steps. A week later a "Six driver" from the other side of the airport showed up with a cracked step. All this from one little 'ol airport. Not a problem? I took it out and delivered it to a big time welding shop here on the Central Coast (Santa Maria,CA). I asked if it could be repaired, and would he reinforce it somehow? He studied the step and said he wouldn't recommend reinforcing it as making it too stiff might encourage it to crack again even quicker in a different spot. Something to do with the type of steel, thickness, and angles of attachment combined with load forces. Stuff I didn't really understand. He rewelded it from front to aft underside. I had it repowder coated and I reinstalled it. It's been more than a year ago and it's still fine. One thing I do do is to use a stool to gain access to the cockpit while in the hanger avoiding the steps altogether if possible. Chuck RV10 Finishing up the Fuselage. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: RV-List: Step crack While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded and somehow have that area reinforced. I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:46 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack My best recollection is that I installed the step in 2005, probably in the first six months of 2005 Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:46 PM PST US From: "David Burton" Subject: RE: RV-List: Step crack Post us a picture if you can Ron, or anybody else who has had this problem. DaveB RV6 _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:34 AM Subject: RV-List: Step crack While preparing for the condition inspection I noticed an unusual amount of movement in the pilot's side step on my 6A. Checking it out I found a crack on the inside just under the weld that connects the long portion of the step to the plate that attaches to the fuselage. Yesterday I drilled out the rivets and will remove the step to be rewelded and somehow have that area reinforced. I saw another occurrence of this on the Vans website so people installing these steps should consider reinforcing that area before installation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:39 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Step crack Here it is. This is on the inside of the step just under the weld. http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/StepCrack1Small.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:50 PM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: RV-List: Hangar in Socal and Bay area? Hey all...I'm coming to Burbank, California for about 5 weeks. Anyone by chance know of a hangar that might have some space for that period of time? Furthermore, I'm going to be based in Oakland after that, so I'll be looking for hangar in the Bay area as well. Thanks... Paul Besing do not archive Looking for last minute shopping deals? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:28 PM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: RV-List: "News to me!" As much as I love their airplanes, their prices, and generally the company altogether, they do have a tendency to say "never heard of that". I cracked my canopy on my -6A because there is one hole that many, many people have drilled on the side skirt that will crack the canopy. I just didn't think my conditions would crack because of shop temperature, amount of pressure on the curve, etc. Well, it did crack and I wasn't going to have a 3" crack on a brand new airplane. Told van's to make that hole not shown to be drilled on the plans per mine and many other recommendations including George Orndorff, and they acted like I was the first. Same thing with my RV-4 rudder just a couple of weeks ago. The plans do not adjust for the thicker skins and the distance for the stiffeners to the trailing edge is wrong on the plans when you use a .020 skin. They again acted like it was never a problem, but anyone who follows the plans on that drawing with the .020 skin will have the same problem. So, the best we can do is educate Van's the best we can, as we are his real "beta testers". I just wish they would admit flaws sometimes and fix them. Sure would have saved us alot of $$ I'm sure! Paul Besing do not archive Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Hangar in Socal and Bay area? From: pittss1@aol.com tell me more . type of a/c ... who do you fly for... and so on. mike -----Original Message----- From: Paul Besing Sent: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 8:50 pm Subject: RV-List: Hangar in Socal and Bay area? Hey all...I'm coming to Burbank, California for about 5 weeks.? Anyone by chance know of a hangar that might have some space for that period of time?? Furthermore, I'm going to be based in Oakland after that, so I'll be looking for hangar in the Bay area as well. Thanks... Paul Besing do not archive ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: "News to me!" From: Doug Gray On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 20:59 -0800, Paul Besing wrote: > cracked my canopy on my -6A because there is one hole that many, many > people have drilled on the side skirt that will crack the canopy. I > just didn't think my conditions would crack because of shop > temperature, amount of pressure on the curve, etc. Well, it did crack > and I wasn't going to have a 3" crack on a brand new airplane. Told > van's to make that hole not shown to be drilled on the plans Which particular hole is that? Slider or Tipup? Timely info for me. 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