Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Rick Galati)
2. 05:53 AM - Re: Rudder Trim (Kelly Patterson)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Ollie Washburn)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (sheldon barrett)
5. 06:53 AM - nose gear mod (Charles Heathco)
6. 06:54 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Sam Buchanan)
7. 08:56 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Konrad L. Werner)
8. 09:13 AM - Re: nose gear mod (Konrad L. Werner)
9. 09:13 AM - WOW - What a difference (joelrhaynes@aol.com)
10. 09:14 AM - trim tab (Wheeler North)
11. 09:25 AM - Trim Tab (Paul Besing)
12. 09:27 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Paul Besing)
13. 09:33 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 02/14/08 (Glen Matejcek)
14. 09:33 AM - Re: Rudder trim tab (Glen Matejcek)
15. 09:40 AM - Re: WOW - What a difference (Tim Bryan)
16. 10:06 AM - Re: nose gear mod (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
17. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 02/14/08 (Terry Watson)
18. 10:54 AM - Re: nose gear mod (Greg Young)
19. 11:09 AM - Re: WOW - What a difference (linn Walters)
20. 11:34 AM - Re: nose gear mod (Kevin Horton)
21. 11:57 AM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (John Danielson)
22. 12:17 PM - Re: WOW - What a difference (Tracy Crook)
23. 12:43 PM - Re: WOW - What a difference (Tim Bryan)
24. 01:26 PM - Re: WOW - What a difference (linn Walters)
25. 01:45 PM - nosegear clarification (Charles Heathco)
26. 03:08 PM - Rudder trim tab material (PeterHunt1@aol.com)
27. 03:34 PM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Randy Lervold)
28. 06:06 PM - FW: Re: Cowl Fasteners (John Barrett)
29. 06:06 PM - Re: Cowl Fasteners (John Barrett)
30. 06:22 PM - Flighttime Radio Show (Brian Kraut)
31. 07:41 PM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
32. 08:05 PM - Re: nose gear mod (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
33. 09:09 PM - Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? (Ed Holyoke)
34. 09:27 PM - Re: Re: Cowl Fasteners (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
It has been awhile since I installed this little wedge with double sided carpet
tape per plans and has since been painted over. Works great.
http://tinyurl.com/2rlafg
Message 2
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Paul,
I did what I think is the cleanest installation...
Attach a 'screen door' spring from the rudder pedal to the firewall, on the
pedal that needs a little push. I made up 2 springs about 6" long and
attached them both to my right pedal on the passenger side. You can also
adjust tension by shortening the spring, or drilling another hole. Fly it
until you get the right combo for ball centered. Practically invisible. Same
principle as Van's aileron trim.
Kelly Patterson
RV-6A N716K
PHX, AZ
Time: 10:27:54 PM PST US
From: Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one out of
wood.
A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size and location...pure
luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look very clean and work
well?
How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a solid piece of machined
alluminum,
but not sure how to mount it on the skin.
Paul Besing
RV-4 N73DD
Arizona
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
Use good quality double back tape.
Ollie
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one out of
> wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size and
> location...pure luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look very
> clean and work well? How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a solid
> piece of machined alluminum, but not sure how to mount it on the skin.
>
> Paul Besing
> RV-4 N73DD
> Arizona
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
Paul... I did a aluminium tab on the bottom of the rudder... easy to
adjust... with a shape that gives the plane a little longer look (I
think ha).. However, some say not the best place for the tab
efficiency... See attached shot...
Sheldon
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Besing
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:23 PM
Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one out
of wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size and
location...pure luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look
very clean and work well? How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a
solid piece of machined alluminum, but not sure how to mount it on the
skin.
Paul Besing
RV-4 N73DD
Arizona
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Be a better friend, newshound, and
Message 5
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I have been thinking about this thing and wonder why we cant put the new
fork on the existing rod which would end up giving the same clearance as
if we cut off and inch and rethreaded it?? would change the sitting
angle just barley. Am I missing something here? I havent asked Vans
about this yet, wanted to see if anyone else has thought about this.
Charlie Heathco
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
Paul Besing wrote:
> Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one
> out of wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size
> and location...pure luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would
> look very clean and work well? How did you fasten it? I was
> thinking of a solid piece of machined alluminum, but not sure how to
> mount it on the skin.
Paul, I took the balsa wedge I used for testing and covered it with
black Monokote to match the rudder and RTV'ed it to the rudder. I needed
some Monokote on the plane in honor of my R/C background. ;-)
A few years later after changing wheelpants and gear fairings, the tab
needed to be redone so I bent one out of 0.016 aluminum (formed it with
closed ends and back) and pop riveted it to the rudder. Its been there
for several years now.
Sam Buchanan
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
Sheldon,
Where exactly would be the best location for good tab efficiency?
Konrad
----- Original Message -----
From: sheldon barrett
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Paul... I did a aluminium tab on the bottom of the rudder... easy to
adjust... with a shape that gives the plane a little longer look (I
think ha).. However, some say not the best place for the tab
efficiency... See attached shot...
Sheldon
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Besing
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:23 PM
Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one
out of wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size
and location...pure luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look
very clean and work well? How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a
solid piece of machined alluminum, but not sure how to mount it on the
skin.
Paul Besing
RV-4 N73DD
Arizona
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Be a better friend, newshound, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: nose gear mod |
Charlie,
Why would you put the new fork onto the old rod, and therefore giving
you the same clearance as before.... Isn't improving the ground
clearance the entire reasoning behind this modification? You might as
well keep the old fork then too, as you would not gain the desired
effect for dig in-/roll over prevention by just swapping out the fork,
but not the rod. If you don't care about gaining any ground clearance
then why even bother. I am sure that there is a good number of people
out there that did not care about swapping the gearleg & fork as both
work fine. It mainly depends on what surface you land on, and I have
never landed on anything but an asphalt runway which obviously would not
really even need this mod... My 0.02 worth.
Konrad
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Heathco
To: rv-list
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:50 AM
Subject: RV-List: nose gear mod
I have been thinking about this thing and wonder why we cant put the
new fork on the existing rod which would end up giving the same
clearance as if we cut off and inch and rethreaded it?? would change the
sitting angle just barley. Am I missing something here? I havent asked
Vans about this yet, wanted to see if anyone else has thought about
this. Charlie Heathco
Message 9
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| Subject: | WOW - What a difference |
I've been flying my 7A for about 1.5 years and 150 hours.? It remains?unpainted
and the cowl at the time of the first flight was structurally?complete but the
spinner?gap was never to my liking since it was nice at the top (0.25 inch)
but too?wide on the sides and particularly so on the bottom.? My philosophy was
to get it in the air, enjoy flying,?and?take my time in completing the fairings
and final fiberglass finishing before painting (I still like this strategy).?
So over the last few weeks I spent a good 25 hours filling all the pin holes,
re-working the spinner opening with some layups and flox, and getting a nice
coat of primer on the cowl to hold me until the real paint goes on.? The cosmetic
outcome was very nice.? Then I went flying.? Holy s**t, it's a different
airplane.? I picked up 3-4 knots in cruise and my CHTs dropped 20-25 degrees.?
My leaned out cruise CHTs at 2500 rpm and 7500 ft?were 325 deg F yesterday
with the?OAT around freezing.? On a 1500 fpm climb ou
t I did not get above 350 on any cylinder.??Before the changes I would sometimes
need to?push the nose down when I got to around 380 on #3.? The cosmetic outcome
was satisfying enough.??The added performance is gravy.
Joel Haynes
N557XW
Bozeman, MT
________________________________________________________________________
Message 10
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Proseal,
If you make a .020 tab instead you can always adjust it a bit.
And you can make its trailing edge flush with the rudder trailing edge as it
will never need to be bent/adjusted to the other side.
Do bond it across at least one stringer.
Time: 10:27:54 PM PST US
From: Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one out of
wood.
A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size and location...pure
luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look very clean and work
well?
How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a solid piece of machined
alluminum,
but not sure how to mount it on the skin.
Paul Besing
RV-4 N73DD
Arizona
Message 11
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Ya know, I do have some Monokote laying around! Do you have any pics of the new
tab?
Thanks Sam..hope all is well with you.
Paul
----- Original Message ----
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:52:17 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Paul Besing wrote:
> Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one
> out of wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size
> and location...pure luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would
> look very clean and work well? How did you fasten it? I was
> thinking of a solid piece of machined alluminum, but not sure how to
> mount it on the skin.
Paul, I took the balsa wedge I used for testing and covered it with
black Monokote to match the rudder and RTV'ed it to the rudder. I needed
some Monokote on the plane in honor of my R/C background. ;-)
A few years later after changing wheelpants and gear fairings, the tab
needed to be redone so I bent one out of 0.016 aluminum (formed it with
closed ends and back) and pop riveted it to the rudder. Its been there
for several years now.
Sam Buchanan
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
Very nice look...works well I assume?
----- Original Message ----
From: sheldon barrett <sheldonb@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:48:26 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}
Paul... I did a aluminium tab on the bottom of the
rudder... easy to adjust... with a shape that gives the plane a little longer
look (I think ha).. However, some say not the best place for the tab
efficiency... See attached shot...
Sheldon
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Besing
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:23 PM
Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one out of
wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size and location...pure
luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look very clean and
work well? How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a solid piece of machined
alluminum, but not sure how to mount it on the skin.
Paul Besing
RV-4 N73DD
Arizona
Be a better friend, newshound, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 02/14/08 |
Speaking of yaw trim, does anybody know offhand how much stab offsett is now specified
for the RV-8?
Glen Matejcek
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder trim tab |
Hi Paul-
RE:
looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab... ...I was thinking of a solid piece
of machined alluminum,
>but not sure how to mount it on the skin.
I'd be carefull about mounting a mass that far from the hinge line. There's probably
quite a flutter margin available, but it is impossible to know when you
are liable to start nibbling at the edge of the flutter envelope.
FWIW-
Glen Matejcek
Message 15
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| Subject: | WOW - What a difference |
Joel,
To which item do you contribute the CHT temp improvement to? To which item
do you contribute the speed difference to?
Inquiring minds.
My CHT's are never below 380 in cruise and well over 420 in climb out.
Tim
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of joelrhaynes@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: RV-List: WOW - What a difference
I've been flying my 7A for about 1.5 years and 150 hours. It remains
unpainted and the cowl at the time of the first flight was structurally
complete but the spinner gap was never to my liking since it was nice at the
top (0.25 inch) but too wide on the sides and particularly so on the bottom.
My philosophy was to get it in the air, enjoy flying, and take my time in
completing the fairings and final fiberglass finishing before painting (I
still like this strategy). So over the last few weeks I spent a good 25
hours filling all the pin holes, re-working the spinner opening with some
layups and flox, and getting a nice coat of primer on the cowl to hold me
until the real paint goes on. The cosmetic outcome was very nice. Then I
went flying. Holy s**t, it's a different airplane. I picked up 3-4 knots
in cruise and my CHTs dropped 20-25 degrees. My leaned out cruise CHTs at
2500 rpm and 7500 ft&nbs p;were 325 deg F yesterday with the OAT around
freezing. On a 1500 fpm climb out I did not get above 350 on any cylinder.
Before the changes I would sometimes need to push the nose down when I got
to around 380 on #3. The cosmetic outcome was satisfying enough. The added
performance is gravy.
Joel Haynes
N557XW
Bozeman, MT
_____
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
lcmp00050000000003> !
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: nose gear mod |
My understanding, the 1 inch is what will hit the pot hole first,
consequently, after cutting off the existing rod the plane will have one
more inch of clearance. If you hold that nose up you will never have a
problem, that is my assumption, however, I should never assume anything.
Jim
RV9a Builder
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Heathco
To: rv-list
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 8:50 AM
Subject: RV-List: nose gear mod
I have been thinking about this thing and wonder why we cant put the
new fork on the existing rod which would end up giving the same
clearance as if we cut off and inch and rethreaded it?? would change the
sitting angle just barley. Am I missing something here? I havent asked
Vans about this yet, wanted to see if anyone else has thought about
this. Charlie Heathco
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
2/15/2008 9:00 AM
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 02/14/08 |
Glen,
I don't remember how much offset is specified, but I believer I remember
that it has changed since my kit was ordered (1998). I think I recall Kevin
Horton talking about a change in the drawings.
Terry
RV-8A #80729
Still building
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen Matejcek
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 02/14/08
Speaking of yaw trim, does anybody know offhand how much stab offsett is now
specified for the RV-8?
Glen Matejcek
Message 18
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I assume he's talking about putting a spacer above the new nose fork so it
resides at the bottom of the leg/axle giving the same clearance as the
shortened leg but with a higher ground angle due to an effectively taller
nose gear. Seems like a reasonable question but then I don't have a dog in
this fight - I'm doing a -6.
Regards,
Greg Young
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Konrad L. Werner
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: nose gear mod
Charlie,
Why would you put the new fork onto the old rod, and therefore giving you
the same clearance as before.... Isn't improving the ground clearance the
entire reasoning behind this modification? You might as well keep the old
fork then too, as you would not gain the desired effect for dig in-/roll
over prevention by just swapping out the fork, but not the rod. If you don't
care about gaining any ground clearance then why even bother. I am sure that
there is a good number of people out there that did not care about swapping
the gearleg & fork as both work fine. It mainly depends on what surface you
land on, and I have never landed on anything but an asphalt runway which
obviously would not really even need this mod... My 0.02 worth.
Konrad
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Heathco <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:50 AM
Subject: RV-List: nose gear mod
I have been thinking about this thing and wonder why we cant put the new
fork on the existing rod which would end up giving the same clearance as if
we cut off and inch and rethreaded it?? would change the sitting angle just
barley. Am I missing something here? I havent asked Vans about this yet,
wanted to see if anyone else has thought about this. Charlie Heathco
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: WOW - What a difference |
I'm going to guess that the improvement was due to cutting down the air
flow forward and then out of the cowl at the spinner gap. The venturi
effect there is huge! To further seal this area, get some pipe
insulating foam and fit it inside the cowl opening around the crank
..... like a donut with the cut in the foam facing outward. Reinstall
the spinner, paying no mind to the fact that the foam contacts the
spinner. A minute of engine run will trim the foam just fine and really
close off this escape route for cooling air.
Linn
joelrhaynes@aol.com wrote:
> I've been flying my 7A for about 1.5 years and 150 hours. It
> remains unpainted and the cowl at the time of the first flight was
> structurally complete but the spinner gap was never to my liking since
> it was nice at the top (0.25 inch) but too wide on the sides and
> particularly so on the bottom. My philosophy was to get it in the
> air, enjoy flying, and take my time in completing the fairings and
> final fiberglass finishing before painting (I still like this
> strategy). So over the last few weeks I spent a good 25 hours filling
> all the pin holes, re-working the spinner opening with some layups and
> flox, and getting a nice coat of primer on the cowl to hold me until
> the real paint goes on. The cosmetic outcome was very nice. Then I
> went flying. Holy s**t, it's a different airplane. I picked up 3-4
> knots in cruise and my CHTs dropped 20-25 degrees. My leaned out
> cruise CHTs at 2500 rpm and 7500 ft&nbs p;were 325 deg F yesterday
> with the OAT around freezing. On a 1500 fpm climb out I did not get
> above 350 on any cylinder. Before the changes I would sometimes need
> to push the nose down when I got to around 380 on #3. The cosmetic
> outcome was satisfying enough. The added performance is gravy.
>
> Joel Haynes
> N557XW
> Bozeman, MT
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003>!
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: nose gear mod |
The disadvantage with this approach would seem to be that it increases the risk
of landing nosewheel first, rather than on the main gear first. Landing nose
wheel first would seem to be one factor that could lead to failure of the nose
landing gear.
Kevin Horton
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:51:15PM -0600, Greg Young wrote:
> I assume he's talking about putting a spacer above the new nose fork so it
> resides at the bottom of the leg/axle giving the same clearance as the
> shortened leg but with a higher ground angle due to an effectively taller
> nose gear. Seems like a reasonable question but then I don't have a dog in
> this fight - I'm doing a -6.
>
> Regards,
> Greg Young
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Konrad L. Werner
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:11 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: nose gear mod
>
>
> Charlie,
> Why would you put the new fork onto the old rod, and therefore giving you
> the same clearance as before.... Isn't improving the ground clearance the
> entire reasoning behind this modification? You might as well keep the old
> fork then too, as you would not gain the desired effect for dig in-/roll
> over prevention by just swapping out the fork, but not the rod. If you don't
> care about gaining any ground clearance then why even bother. I am sure that
> there is a good number of people out there that did not care about swapping
> the gearleg & fork as both work fine. It mainly depends on what surface you
> land on, and I have never landed on anything but an asphalt runway which
> obviously would not really even need this mod... My 0.02 worth.
> Konrad
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charles Heathco <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>
> To: rv-list <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:50 AM
> Subject: RV-List: nose gear mod
>
> I have been thinking about this thing and wonder why we cant put the new
> fork on the existing rod which would end up giving the same clearance as if
> we cut off and inch and rethreaded it?? would change the sitting angle just
> barley. Am I missing something here? I havent asked Vans about this yet,
> wanted to see if anyone else has thought about this. Charlie Heathco
Message 21
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| Subject: | Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
I used a piece of 0.04 aluminum bent to shape and used carpet tape to
secure it to the rudder. Flew for 300 hrs without a problem.
John L. Danielson
307-266-2524
johnd@wlcwyo.com
WLC, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Very nice look...works well I assume?
----- Original Message ----
From: sheldon barrett <sheldonb@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:48:26 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Paul... I did a aluminium tab on the bottom of the rudder... easy to
adjust... with a shape that gives the plane a little longer look (I
think ha).. However, some say not the best place for the tab
efficiency... See attached shot...
Sheldon
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Besing <mailto:pbesing@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:23 PM
Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trim Tab Material?
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab. I made one out
of wood. A wedge shape. Taped on the rudder and nailed the size and
location...pure luck. Anyway, what have others seen that would look
very clean and work well? How did you fasten it? I was thinking of a
solid piece of machined alluminum, but not sure how to mount it on the
skin.
Paul Besing
RV-4 N73DD
Arizona
_____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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om/Navigator?RV-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref=>
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: WOW - What a difference |
I had the same experience when closing this gap. I had no cooling
improvement due to my very different cooling system (liquid cooled
rotary engine) but I saw a 3 mph increase in cruise speed.
Conventional wisdom would indicate that the reduction in drag is due to the
simple reduction of the gap generated turbulance. I don't think this is
correct.
I think the reason for the speed increase is the reduction in the fan of
air spewing out of the gap. The air causes some kind of parasitic drag.
The spinner also acts like a centrifugal pump throwing air out of this gap.
Also, cooling drag is proportional to the number of CFM flowing through the
cooling inlets. Your cooling improvement was probably due to the increase
in pressure in you cooling plenum because the air was not being blead off
through the spinner gap. Even though the airflow through your cylinder
fins increased, the total flow through the inlets was probably decreased -
i.e., lower cooling drag.
Tracy Crook
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:11 PM, <joelrhaynes@aol.com> wrote:
> I've been flying my 7A for about 1.5 years and 150 hours. It
> remains unpainted and the cowl at the time of the first flight was
> structurally complete but the spinner gap was never to my liking since it
> was nice at the top (0.25 inch) but too wide on the sides and particularly
> so on the bottom. My philosophy was to get it in the air, enjoy
> flying, and take my time in completing the fairings and final fiberglass
> finishing before painting (I still like this strategy). So over the last
> few weeks I spent a good 25 hours filling all the pin holes, re-working the
> spinner opening with some layups and flox, and getting a nice coat of primer
> on the cowl to hold me until the real paint goes on. The cosmetic outcome
> was very nice. Then I went flying. Holy s**t, it's a different airplane.
> I picked up 3-4 knots in cruise and my CHTs dropped 20-25 degrees. My
> leaned out cruise CHTs at 2500 rpm and 7500 ft&nbs p;were 325 deg F
> yesterday with the OAT around freezing. On a 1500 fpm climb out I did not
> get above 350 on any cylinder. Before the changes I would sometimes need
> to push the nose down when I got to around 380 on #3. The cosmetic outcome
> was satisfying enough. The added performance is gravy.
>
> Joel Haynes
> N557XW
> Bozeman, MT
> ------------------------------
> !
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | WOW - What a difference |
I am having a hard time visualizing where this pipe foam is being put.
Isn't the flywheel back there also turning? Do you have any pictures of
this installed?
Thanks
Tim
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: WOW - What a difference
I'm going to guess that the improvement was due to cutting down the air flow
forward and then out of the cowl at the spinner gap. The venturi effect
there is huge! To further seal this area, get some pipe insulating foam and
fit it inside the cowl opening around the crank ..... like a donut with the
cut in the foam facing outward. Reinstall the spinner, paying no mind to
the fact that the foam contacts the spinner. A minute of engine run will
trim the foam just fine and really close off this escape route for cooling
air.
Linn
joelrhaynes@aol.com wrote:
I've been flying my 7A for about 1.5 years and 150 hours. It remains
unpainted and the cowl at the time of the first flight was structurally
complete but the spinner gap was never to my liking since it was nice at the
top (0.25 inch) but too wide on the sides and particularly so on the bottom.
My philosophy was to get it in the air, enjoy flying, and take my time in
completing the fairings and final fiberglass finishing before painting (I
still like this strategy). So over the last few weeks I spent a good 25
hours filling all the pin holes, re-working the spinner opening with some
layups and flox, and getting a nice coat of primer on the cowl to hold me
until the real paint goes on. The cosmetic outcome was very nice. Then I
went flying. Holy s**t, it's a different airplane. I picked up 3-4 knots
in cruise and my CHTs dropped 20-25 degrees. My leaned out cruise CHTs at
2500 rpm and 7500 ft&nbs p;were 325 deg F yesterday with the OAT around
freezing. On a 1500 fpm climb out I did not get above 350 on any cylinder.
Before the changes I would sometimes need to push the nose down when I got
to around 380 on #3. The cosmetic outcome was satisfying enough. The added
performance is gravy.
Joel Haynes
N557XW
Bozeman, MT
_____
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
lcmp00050000000003> !
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: WOW - What a difference |
Tim Bryan wrote:
Tim, let me answer last question first ;-)
Do you have any pictures of this installed?
No.
Isn't the flywheel back there also turning?
Yes! At least I hope it is!!! :-P
I think I see your point. If the flywheel doesn't leave enough room
between cowl and flywheel for the foam, you can split the foam in half
and just glue the front piece on. Or you may just let the flywheel
custom fit itself in the foam like the spinner does. This may be
preferable if the 'hole in the donut' is small.
And finally:
I am having a hard time visualizing where this pipe foam is being put.
Bear in mind that I've not seen my -10 cowl yet!!! I've done this on
other airplanes.
The cowl should have a round, flat, face that fits between the flywheel
teeth and the spinner. When the cowl is in place, there's a hole where
the crank pokes through ..... between the inlets ...... and this is the
'hole in the donut'. Now, this is where things may get confusing ... in
my mind too. I've never done this to a constant speed prop, so there
may be some difference here, but not much. On the fixed pitch spinner,
the back plate lip bends aft. I'm thinking that on some constant
speeds, the lip points forward. Someone can help me out here!!!
Anyway, the foam has a slit down it lengthwise. Fit it around the 'hole
in the donut' like a huge rubber grommet. Place the spinner back plate
on the prop flange to check for fit. On the cowls I've done this to,
the new 'grommet' fit snugly underneath the lip of the backing plate
..... except where the nutplates were. The first two or three
revolutions relieved that interference! Glue it down with yellow 3m
weatherstrip glue .... monkey snot as somebody previously said!!!
All you need to remember is to slit the foam where the upper and lower
cowl joins!!!
Hope this helps!!!
> I am having a hard time visualizing where this pipe foam is being
> put. Isn't the flywheel back there also turning? Do you have any
> pictures of this installed?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 1:06 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: WOW - What a difference
>
>
>
> I'm going to guess that the improvement was due to cutting down the
> air flow forward and then out of the cowl at the spinner gap. The
> venturi effect there is huge! To further seal this area, get some
> pipe insulating foam and fit it inside the cowl opening around the
> crank ..... like a donut with the cut in the foam facing outward.
> Reinstall the spinner, paying no mind to the fact that the foam
> contacts the spinner. A minute of engine run will trim the foam just
> fine and really close off this escape route for cooling air.
> Linn
>
> joelrhaynes@aol.com <mailto:joelrhaynes@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I've been flying my 7A for about 1.5 years and 150 hours. It
> remains unpainted and the cowl at the time of the first flight was
> structurally complete but the spinner gap was never to my liking since
> it was nice at the top (0.25 inch) but too wide on the sides and
> particularly so on the bottom. My philosophy was to get it in the
> air, enjoy flying, and take my time in completing the fairings and
> final fiberglass finishing before painting (I still like this
> strategy). So over the last few weeks I spent a good 25 hours filling
> all the pin holes, re-working the spinner opening with some layups and
> flox, and getting a nice coat of primer on the cowl to hold me until
> the real paint goes on. The cosmetic outcome was very nice. Then I
> went flying. Holy s**t, it's a different airplane. I picked up 3-4
> knots in cruise and my CHTs dropped 20-25 degrees. My leaned out
> cruise CHTs at 2500 rpm and 7500 ft&nbs p;were 325 deg F yesterday
> with the OAT around freezing. On a 1500 fpm climb out I did not get
> above 350 on any cylinder. Before the changes I would sometimes need
> to push the nose down when I got to around 380 on #3. The cosmetic
> outcome was satisfying enough. The added performance is gravy.
>
> Joel Haynes
> N557XW
> Bozeman, MT
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003>!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>
>http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | nosegear clarification |
I have gotten some emails re the mod (I am on digest only), and since
the replys adress why the mod, and not the orig question, I want to
clarify. The new fork has a shorter front piece which is therefor 1 in
higher from the pavement and I thought maybe one could use the new fork
without cutting off the leg, but I took another look and see the reason
the leg has to be cut off. So disreguard the first mail. I dont intend
to make the mod myself at this time along with several others I know, as
I rarely go into grass, and only if i have looked at it on foot first.
Knock on wood, I have not landed nosewheel first that I can recall since
getting my pvt in 1966, Im counting on maintaining proper flair till Im
too old to whip and ride any more. I have spronged my 6a twice since I
bought it, landing in extreem x-wind, but mains were on first. Charlie
heathco
Message 26
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| Subject: | Rudder trim tab material |
Paul,
Aircraft Spruce sells a nice rudder trim tab made of aluminum. It can be
cut to the length you want and painted. I went to a trophy shop and bought
some two sided tape. Still working great after 300 hours.
Pete in Clearwater
RV-6, Reserve Grand Champion - Kit S 'n F 2006, Outstanding Aircraft -
Homebuilt S 'n F 2007, Third Place Metal, Copperstate 2007
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
> A few years later after changing wheelpants and gear fairings, the tab
> needed to be redone so I bent one out of 0.016 aluminum (formed it with
> closed ends and back) and pop riveted it to the rudder. Its been there for
> several years now. Sam Buchanan
As Sam mentions, things down the road can change which is why I also went
with a bendable tab. Make sure you don't locate it right behind the HS, it
will blank it. Here's my solution...
http://www.romeolima.com/RV3hq/Airframe/DSCN2596.jpg
Randy Lervold
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Re: Cowl Fasteners |
Sending this a second time - didn't see it come up yesterday. I apologize
to all if it's redundant.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Barrett [mailto:2thman@cablespeed.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: Cowl Fasteners
I'm continually surprised that builders want to use individual fasteners
along the composite cowls of their airplanes. Even the certified producers
are going to hinge attachments now. Look at the Columbia. Does anyone know
how the Cirrus does it?
This is partly a shameless plug because my company makes and sells Carbinge
graphite piano hinges that are used in so many home builts so be suspicious
of anything I say, but take the time to ask your colleagues who have used
hinges instead of fasteners.
Regards,
John Barrett, CEO
Leading Edge Composites
PO Box 428
Port Hadlock, WA 98339
www.carbinge.com
3:20 PM
9:00 AM
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Fasteners |
>From Ivan Haecker et al:
In a message dated 02/13/2008 12:47:46 PM Central Standard Time,
panamared5@brier.net writes:
Also the hinges all broke in the bottom of the cowl, and
the parts of the cowl where I did use hinges, they are not that user
friendly to the surrounding paint, the cowl, or the ripped up skin
on
my hands and fingers.
>>>
Also consider countersunk 8-32 screws (six each side) for the bottom,
with platenuts mounted on a strip riveted to lower firewall flange. Not
a problem in 450+ hours on my RV-6A.
Mark
*******************
As we have discussed for years on the Lancair Mail List, there are lots of
reasons to avoid screws or camlock type fasteners on composite cowls. Among
the reasons include weight, difficulty of installation, dinging up the
cowling when removing and replacing cowl, appearance, frictional drag and so
on.
So almost all of us on that list agree that hinges are the better way to go.
I would surmise the poster of the above message used aluminum hinges and
bent them tightly around the front turn in the cowl. Perhaps he also had to
place some sort of home made retention system as well to keep the pin from
vibrating forward into the prop while in flight.
We have pretty well perfected the use and installation of graphite hinges
for plastic cowls. The matchup results in easy installation, an attachment
that holds at every point along the cowl instead of at intervals, one that's
very simple and easy to remove and replace. There are no rivet divots in
the paintjob and there won't be any of these working loose as hours pass on
the airframe. We use a product called Carbinge Keepers to avoid a clumsy,
difficult to manage and unsightly retention system for the pins. The
Keepers utilize a recessed allen screw welded to the end of the pin and a
female button that is bonded into the cowl and the pin/screw arrangement
simple is screwed into the button leaving only a depression of less than
1/4" diameter in the forward edge of the cowl on each side. You won't find
any of those who have used this system complaining about dinging up their
fingers or having parts come loose. We have well over 1,000 hours of many
of our installations and we have had no reports of failures or problems
where the installations were done correctly.
Once again this is a shameless plug and I urge all to seek out colleagues
who have used our system. See web site below.
Regards,
John Barrett, CEO
Leading Edge Composites
PO Box 428
Port Hadlock, WA 98339
www.carbinge.com
9:00 AM
Message 30
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| Subject: | Flighttime Radio Show |
Just wanted to remind everyone to listen to the Flighttime Radio Show
tomorrow morning at 10:00 AM Eastern time. www.flighttimeradio.com We are
having an aviation education special this week.
This week we will have KR pilot Kip Lounsbury guest hosting with us. Kip is
a lot of fun and a great story teller.
We are giving away a $49.95 valued ASA Flight Timer 2 and an Aviation
Scholarship Directory to callers this week. You must be listening live for
your chance to call in and win.
Our first guests this week are Judy Rice, President of Careers in Aviation
which is a non-profit group helping to advance the future of aviation
careers by fostering scholarships, connecting students with available
assistance, and encouraging the aviation industry, professional
associations, government agancies, and the educational community to work
together effectively supporting aviation and space career development
programs.
Our second guest is Col. Jack Howell, President of Teens in Flight which is
a non-profit group that provides free flight training and maintenance
scholarships to teens that have lost a parent or had a parent wounded and
disabled in the war on terrorrism or selected "at risk" teens.
Brian Kraut
www.flighttimeradio.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
In a message dated 02/15/2008 8:56:29 AM Central Standard Time,
sbuc@hiwaay.net writes:
Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab.
>>>
Here's hoping someone with a lot more aeronautical knowledge than myself
could specifically quantify this issue. I've watched these trimtab debates for
years here on the 'List and have been unable to understand this phenomenon. In
my possibly skewed way of thinking, an airplane in a given configuration will
seek equilibrium regarding yaw. Pitch and roll are pretty much no-brainers
since we'd like to stay at a desired altitude and heading. But adding some kind
of drag inducing device to the airframe in an effort to keep that little ball
between the lines seems like an attempt to "force" the airplane into an
"unhappy" trim condition.
Any ballistic projectile (arrow, for example?) will seek its most efficient
trajectory based on the drag of its components settling on their least
resistance to the airflow and fly a straight as it can, given its profile. Does
this
not apply to airplanes as well? Consider that when too high on final, a
corrective action is often a cross control situation causing the airplane to
descend more rapidly- by adding DRAG. Wouldn't adding a trimtab be similar, even
if
on a much smaller scale?
Are we inducing false efficiency to simply satisfy possible instrument error
(that little ball) on an airframe we may not have perfectly constructed?
Mr Horton & others- your thoughts, please?
Mark Phillips - do not archive
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: nose gear mod |
In a message dated 02/15/2008 1:36:52 PM Central Standard Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
The disadvantage with this approach would seem to be that it increases the
risk of landing nosewheel first, rather than on the main gear first.
>>>
Agreed. The newer models (-7A/-9A) have taller main gear for this very
reason, IMHO.
I've had some experience landing on the nosewheel first in my -6A. Not
pretty. Go around, fer sure...
Mark do not archive
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Tab Material? |
Mark,
I'm not sure about the theory of it, but when the ball is centered our
plane is a little faster and climbs slightly better. I think it's about
not slipping - getting sideways causes drag. In a climb, as I add right
rudder, it climbs better. In a descent, I have to add a little left
rudder as the trim tab is set for cruise speed, and when I do, it goes
faster by a few knots.
Try shooting an arrow that has one feather bigger than the others and
see how straight and fast it flies. We have P-factor and rotating
slipstream effect causing us to yaw. If we don't correct the yaw, we're
flying with a bit of a forward slip.
Pax,
Ed
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 02/15/2008 8:56:29 AM Central Standard Time,
> sbuc@hiwaay.net writes:
>
> Hey all...looking for some bright ideas on a trim tab.
>
> >>>
> Here's hoping someone with a lot more aeronautical knowledge than
> myself could specifically quantify this issue. I've watched these
> trimtab debates for years here on the 'List and have been unable to
> understand this phenomenon. In my possibly skewed way of thinking, an
> airplane in a given configuration will seek equilibrium regarding
> yaw. Pitch and roll are pretty much no-brainers since we'd like to
> stay at a desired altitude and heading. But adding some kind of drag
> inducing device to the airframe in an effort to keep that little ball
> between the lines seems like an attempt to "force" the airplane into
> an "unhappy" trim condition.
>
> Any ballistic projectile (arrow, for example?) will seek its most
> efficient trajectory based on the drag of its components settling on
> their least resistance to the airflow and fly a straight as it can,
> given its profile. Does this not apply to airplanes as well?
> Consider that when too high on final, a corrective action is often a
> cross control situation causing the airplane to descend more rapidly-
> by adding DRAG. Wouldn't adding a trimtab be similar, even if on a
> much smaller scale?
>
> Are we inducing false efficiency to simply satisfy possible instrument
> error (that little ball) on an airframe we may not have perfectly
> constructed?
>
> Mr Horton & others- your thoughts, please?
>
> Mark Phillips - do not archive
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Fasteners |
In a message dated 02/15/2008 8:08:16 PM Central Standard Time,
2thman@cablespeed.com writes:
So almost all of us on that list agree that hinges are the better way to go.
Hi John-
I conditionally respect your attempt to promote your product here- wish I had
something to sell as well! I am confident they are well engineered products
and meet the needs of suitable builders. I must admit I looked at carbinge
while constructing my RV, but considering my limited budget, opted to use the
standard hinges supplied with my kit. Appropriately applied, they have worked
quite to my satisfaction. The use of screws on the bottom cowl to firewall
addresses a common problem with use of aluminum hinge in this area, and it has
worked flawlessly for me. My upper/lower hinge pins insert quite easily through
the firewall- no retention problems and no exposed fasteners, nor any
possibility of prop interference. No failures in 450+ hours of use kinda negates
some of your suggested difficulties using cheap old aluminum hinges and screws.
"weight, difficulty of installation, dinging up the cowling when removing and
replacing cowl, appearance, frictional drag and so on."
Huh? And just what the heck are "rivet divots"? No idea what you're talking
about. Neat thing about the Experimental family- use common sense selecting
products that suit your needs, do what you think is best and let the results
speak for themselves...
Amazing variety of fine feline pelts, no?
Mark Phillips, Columbia, TN
Builder RV-6A "Mojo"- earned Bronze Lindy OSH '05, Sun&Fun Best Metal
Homebuilt '06, Grand Champion SERFI '06
_http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_
(http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/)
do not archive
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
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