Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:35 AM - headset wiring (Robin)
2. 06:37 AM - microphone wiring to plug (Robin)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: headset wiring (Charlie England)
4. 07:13 AM - Re: microphone wiring to plug (Charles Kuss)
5. 07:35 AM - RV7A OVERHEATING (smoothweasel@juno.com)
6. 08:15 AM - F-601TD (Dave Stuebner)
7. 08:49 AM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Kevin Horton)
8. 08:52 AM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Kevin Horton)
9. 09:36 AM - AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (SCOTT SPENCER)
10. 09:41 AM - Re: headset wiring (Vanremog@aol.com)
11. 10:12 AM - Re: microphone wiring to plug (Charles Kuss)
12. 10:45 AM - Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (John W. Cox)
13. 11:48 AM - ADs (Wheeler North)
14. 03:04 PM - Re: Do AD's really apply? ()
15. 03:26 PM - Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (JFLEISC@aol.com)
16. 03:33 PM - Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (Dan Reeves)
17. 04:56 PM - Two New Lists Added to the Matronics Lineup! (Matt Dralle)
18. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (Ron Lee)
19. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (Ron Lee)
20. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (Bob J.)
21. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (RALPH HOOVER)
Message 1
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I have an older Telex headset that is mono and only has two wires for
the speakers and two wires for the microphone. I have the speakers wired
up and they work fine.
The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder
connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location
for these two wires for it to work..
Robin
Message 2
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| Subject: | microphone wiring to plug |
The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder
connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location
for these two wires for it to work..
Robin
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: headset wiring |
Robin wrote:
> I have an older Telex headset that is mono and only has two wires for
> the speakers and two wires for the microphone. I have the speakers
> wired up and they work fine.
> The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder
> connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location
> for these two wires for it to work..
> Robin
The tip is intended to carry the Push-To-Talk line.
The ring is mic audio 'hi' or 'positive' or '+'.
The sleeve is 'lo' or 'return' or 'ground', depending on who writes the
docs.
If you have an inline portable PTT switch, when you push the button, the
tip is connected to the sleeve (pulling the PTT sense line in the radio
to near zero volts), telling the radio to go into transmit mode.
Charlie
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: microphone wiring to plug |
Robin
You need to purchase the correct plug. The plug you
have is for stereo headphones. You need a "mono" plug.
Charlie Kuss
--- Robin <rivet-smasher@comcast.net> wrote:
> The microphone has two wires but the plug has
> three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring,
> Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these
> two wires for it to work..
> Robin
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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| Subject: | RV7A OVERHEATING |
Hello all, It's been a long time since i have found time to read "the li
st". I have been helping a friend finish a rv-7a and test fly it. It h
as a new superior 360 parallel valve engine, Hartzell blended airfoil pr
op, the oil cooler is the one that comes with the finishing kit and is m
ounted on the firewall with a 3.5 in scat duct going to it (with no shar
p bends in the duct). the cowl air exit is the standard size. ie. no ext
ra openings.
His problem is over heating oil. With 52 deg. F. Outside air crusing at
24 in map. and 2350rpm on the prop the oil will run about 220-225deg F.
The CHT runs about 360-370 deg. F. The engine now has 30hr or more on
it.
Will the Oil temp drop any more with "break in"? Should it have more ex
it air leaving the cowl....some have suggested installing "luvers" on th
e botom of the cowl to help with that...?
Also the airplane cruises at the above power setting at 8000ft at 164kn
TAS he thinks this is a little slow...... Is this what most of you are
seeing with the same engine/prop combo???
btw i tried to search the archives on this but didnt find the specific i
nfo..........probably dont know how to look it up right...
Thanks for any thoughts
Weasel RV-4 400hr
_____________________________________________________________
Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you thin
k.
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Message 6
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What piece of material is F-601TD made from? I see a a F-601Z on my
packing list as a builder part, made from AS3-063x2 1/4x10, but it is
grossly oversized.
Dave
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
On 29-Mar-08, at 10:28 , smoothweasel@juno.com wrote:
> Hello all, It's been a long time since i have found time to read
> "the list". I have been helping a friend finish a rv-7a and test
> fly it. It has a new superior 360 parallel valve engine, Hartzell
> blended airfoil prop, the oil cooler is the one that comes with the
> finishing kit and is mounted on the firewall with a 3.5 in scat duct
> going to it (with no sharp bends in the duct). the cowl air exit is
> the standard size. ie. no extra openings.
>
> His problem is over heating oil. With 52 deg. F. Outside air
> crusing at 24 in map. and 2350rpm on the prop the oil will run about
> 220-225deg F. The CHT runs about 360-370 deg. F. The engine now
> has 30hr or more on it.
>
> Will the Oil temp drop any more with "break in"? Should it have
> more exit air leaving the cowl....some have suggested installing
> "luvers" on the botom of the cowl to help with that...?
>
> Also the airplane cruises at the above power setting at 8000ft at
> 164kn TAS he thinks this is a little slow...... Is this what most
> of you are seeing with the same engine/prop combo???
>
> btw i tried to search the archives on this but didnt find the
> specific info..........probably dont know how to look it up right...
>
>
Has the oil temperature sender been calibrated? You can put it in a
pot of boiling water to check its accuracy, keeping in mind that the
boiling point changes slightly with altitude.
Has the tachometer been calibrated?
I agree that the TAS sounds a bit low. How have you determined TAS?
If you used IAS corrected for altitude and temperature, it is possible
that there are errors in the airspeed system, and/or the indicated OAT.
How much EGT rise can you get in cruise if you lean from full rich?
At the cruise condition you mention, how many degrees rich or lean of
peak EGT were you? What manifold pressure do you get at full throttle
at 8000 ft?
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
On 29-Mar-08, at 10:28 , smoothweasel@juno.com wrote:
> Also the airplane cruises at the above power setting at 8000ft at
> 164kn TAS he thinks this is a little slow...... Is this what most
> of you are seeing with the same engine/prop combo???
>
One more thing - Please confirm that all the fairings and wheel pants
are installed.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 9
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| Subject: | AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER |
ARE AD's APPLICABLE TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT?
After listening to all sides of this argument for the last period of time, I
sought to find out the real answer. I feel that I did. It lies in Paragraph 8
in FAA Advisory Circular AC39-7C dated 11/16/95 -it is the latest version and
supercedes AC 39-7B, Airworthiness Directives, dated April 8, 1987. THERE IS NO
AMBIGUITY HERE.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/ea051001b2ce246e862569b500508099/$FILE/AC39-7C.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/EA051001B2CE246E862569B500508099?OpenDocument&Highlight=experimental
An excerpt from the above AC follows:
EXCERPT
*************************************************
8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying
the
product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies.
Some aircraft
owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with
other than
standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates
in the restricted, limited,
or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make
and model set forth
in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of
the airworthiness
certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness certification
information are
used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on applicability
by specifying
the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there
is no reference to
serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples of
AD applicability
statements:
a. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes, certificated
in
any category." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable
to all airplanes
of the model listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued
to the aircraft.
b. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 Serial Numbers 15-1081
through 15-1098." This statement, or one similarly worded, specifies certain
aircraft by serial
number within a specific model and series regardless of the type of airworthiness
certificate
issued to the aircraft.
c. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series aircraft certificated
in all
categories excluding experimental aircraft." This statement, or one similarly
worded, makes the
AD applicable to all airplanes except those issued experimental airworthiness
certificates.
d. "Applicability: Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes; Cessna
Models 150, 170, 172, and 175 series airplanes; and Piper PA-28-140 airplanes;
certificated in
any category, that have been modified in accordance with STC SA807NM using ABLE
INDUSTRIES, Inc., (Part No. 1234) muffler kits." This statement, or one similarly
worded,
makes the AD applicable to all airplanes listed when altered by the supplemental
type certificate
listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft.
e. Every AD applies to each product identified in the applicability statement,
regardless
of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to
the requirements of the
AD. For products that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that performance
of the
requirements of the AD is affected, the owner/operator must use the authority
provided in the
alternative methods of compliance provision of the AD (see paragraph 12) to request
approval
from the FAA. This approval may address either no action, if the current configuration
eliminates the unsafe condition; or, different actions necessary to address the
unsafe condition
described in the AD. In no case, does the presence of any alteration, modification,
or repair
remove any product from the applicability of this AD. Performance of the requirements
of the
AD is affected if an operator is unable to perform those requirements in the
manner described
in the AD. In short, either the requirements of the AD can be performed as specified
in the AD
and the specified results can be achieved, or they cannot.
*************************************************
-END OF EXCERPT-
The clincher is the statement: "Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly
assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness
certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted,
limited, or experimental category."
END OF DISPUTE !
(but not necessarily the end of discussion)
The waters do get muddier when figuring out what applies to experimentals, how
to comply, FAA enforcement of compliance and the like, but AD's *do* apply to
us. There is no question of that as I read it.
Scott S.
RV-4, Cessna 140
A&P mechanic 18 years
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: headset wiring |
In a message dated 3/29/2008 6:36:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rivet-smasher@comcast.net writes:
The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder connections on
it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these two wires for
it to work.
===================================================
The proper plug is called a TRS (tip, ring, sleeve) and the mic connections
on a normally wired aircraft are MIC=Ring and MIC_RTN=Sleeve. If you use an
external (inline) Mic key switch then MIC_KEY=TIP.
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 887hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: microphone wiring to plug |
Robin,
Please ignore my earlier advice. I had my head up my
a$$. For some reason, I was thinking that you were
dealing with a headset jack, NOT a microphone jack.
Sorry.
Charlie
--- Charles Kuss <chaskuss@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <chaskuss@yahoo.com>
>
> Robin
> You need to purchase the correct plug. The plug you
> have is for stereo headphones. You need a "mono"
> plug.
> Charlie Kuss
>
> --- Robin <rivet-smasher@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > The microphone has two wires but the plug has
> > three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring,
> > Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these
> > two wires for it to work..
> > Robin
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month
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Message 12
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| Subject: | AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER |
Thanks Scott. And I think even an obtuse thanks to Mike Robertson, to
whom I continue to hold a lot of respect for.
I will query in writing the legal department of the FAA in Washington
through Mike's former (FSDO NM-09) to get my own comfort level higher.
I have heard both sides for years and remain concerned how people can
hold dear to their hearts (and their passions) that our rules do not
apply to them specifically. Somehow "Exceptions and Experimentals" seem
to run on the same logic. Mike used a reference of some update Aircraft
Certification Management Team date April 28-30, 1998.
I concur with your interpretation of AC39-7C and await a clear and
cogent, unambiguous final resolution in writing, (since 1995 was a long
time ago) in the evolution of Experimental Aircraft. I have not found
such with my EAA Headquarters. This issue will play central to the 51%
NPRM on the total overhaul that the FAA is bent on leveling against
OBAM.
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SCOTT SPENCER
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER
ARE AD's APPLICABLE TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT?
After listening to all sides of this argument for the last period of
time, I sought to find out the real answer. I feel that I did. It lies
in Paragraph 8 in FAA Advisory Circular AC39-7C dated 11/16/95 -it is
the latest version and supercedes AC 39-7B, Airworthiness Directives,
dated April 8, 1987. THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY HERE.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.ns
f/0/ea051001b2ce246e862569b500508099/$FILE/AC39-7C.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.ns
f/0/EA051001B2CE246E862569B500508099?OpenDocument&Highlight=experimenta
l
An excerpt from the above AC follows:
EXCERPT
*************************************************
8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's. Each AD contains an applicability statement
specifying the
product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it
applies. Some aircraft
owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to
aircraft with other than
standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness
certificates in the restricted, limited,
or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the
make and model set forth
in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or
category of the airworthiness
certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness
certification information are
used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on
applicability by specifying
the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When
there is no reference to
serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are
examples of AD applicability
statements:
a. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes,
certificated in
any category." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD
applicable to all airplanes
of the model listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate
issued to the aircraft.
b. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 Serial Numbers
15-1081
through 15-1098." This statement, or one similarly worded, specifies
certain aircraft by serial
number within a specific model and series regardless of the type of
airworthiness certificate
issued to the aircraft.
c. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series aircraft
certificated in all
categories excluding experimental aircraft." This statement, or one
similarly worded, makes the
AD applicable to all airplanes except those issued experimental
airworthiness certificates.
d. "Applicability: Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series
airplanes; Cessna
Models 150, 170, 172, and 175 series airplanes; and Piper PA-28-140
airplanes; certificated in
any category, that have been modified in accordance with STC SA807NM
using ABLE
INDUSTRIES, Inc., (Part No. 1234) muffler kits." This statement, or one
similarly worded,
makes the AD applicable to all airplanes listed when altered by the
supplemental type certificate
listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to
the aircraft.
e. Every AD applies to each product identified in the applicability
statement, regardless
of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area
subject to the requirements of the
AD. For products that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that
performance of the
requirements of the AD is affected, the owner/operator must use the
authority provided in the
alternative methods of compliance provision of the AD (see paragraph 12)
to request approval
from the FAA. This approval may address either no action, if the current
configuration
eliminates the unsafe condition; or, different actions necessary to
address the unsafe condition
described in the AD. In no case, does the presence of any alteration,
modification, or repair
remove any product from the applicability of this AD. Performance of the
requirements of the
AD is "affected" if an operator is unable to perform those requirements
in the manner described
in the AD. In short, either the requirements of the AD can be performed
as specified in the AD
and the specified results can be achieved, or they cannot.
*************************************************
-END OF EXCERPT-
The clincher is the statement: "Some aircraft owners and operators
mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than
standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness
certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category."
END OF DISPUTE !
(but not necessarily the end of discussion)
The waters do get muddier when figuring out what applies to
experimentals, how to comply, FAA enforcement of compliance and the
like, but AD's *do* apply to us. There is no question of that as I read
it.
Scott S.
RV-4, Cessna 140
A&P mechanic 18 years
Message 13
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This seems to come around again and again...
Airworthiness Directives apply to what the AD says it applies to,,,
period!!!
There is no policy, regulation or law that limits this, anywhere,
anywhat,
anywho, or anyhow.
They can, and I have seen them apply to one or any range of any type
certificated device or appliance by make, model, month, year, day,
serial
number, category, airworthiness category, etc. They can also apply to
work
done by any facility or person whether certified or not. They can also
apply
to any (RFO) registered flying object or part thereof by N-number or
part
number, which includes every airborne object except for ice cubes,
rocks,
ultralights and birds not registered as B1RD or GU11.
They can even apply to prior approvals by the FAA themselves.
The reason you will see very few AD's in the EXP world is because most
require some form of approved procedure or parts, neither of which are
possible in the EXP arena because nothing defines this. But make no
mistake,
an AD that says "This applies to all aircraft that has P/N XZY111
crankshaft
installed must comply yadi yadi." it applies to your airplane if that
part is
installed. Your airworthiness category does not refute this even if it
might
be next to impossible to prove the part is installed. If you have
knowledge
it is installed or is likely to be installed you will be committing
fraud by
claiming it does not apply. In many instances a violation would be
difficult
to impose, but a civil action would be very easy to argue.
W
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Do AD's really apply? |
Bob:
If you are a EAA member. Log In and use the search
for two letters AD. The first item will be, "Airworthiness
Directives & Amateur Built Aircraft." Click on that and
read. If you are not a member I'll send it to you.
Bob there is an air of prove it, I dare you; I don't
believe you? I don't like your tone. I am trying to
teach you, but if you are not listening, OK fine have
a nice day. I don't care to fight or convince you.
First its not hypothetical it's a FACT. The EAA
works with the FAA lawyers and are going to
Oklahoma and DC all the time. If you don't believe
them fine. I have not put up any "opinion", it is legal
fact that some how has blown your fuse. I am
OK if you disagree, but you have no facts to support
your opinion or refute.
The prove it part? To prove a negative is like saying
prove dogs can't talk. The only regulation you need to
meet is in the front of your experimental aircraft's log
book and there are no comments about AD's or any
other part of the FAR's except the ones noted.
Bob, prove AD's must be complied with. You can't. I have
read all the regs and talked to the lawyers on this matter,
have you?
Second there is no legal precedence, no lawsuits or
rulings from a judge. If you are foreseeing lawsuits
and violations you better comply with all your AD's
to be conservative.
QUOTE:
THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT AND
DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL
SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD
AIRCRAFT
Questions?
Your protest or challenge is prima facie ridiculous. No
proof is needed. Prove it to yourself. Part 23, 39, 43
and so on don't APPLY! Next you will tell me I
need a A&P to work on my RV.
I gave you the references and you should do your own
research and evaluation. I can't do it for you. You will
never believe me. I did the leg work and called the
EAA and read the Regs. If nothing I said makes sense
to you or rings a cord of truth, I'm not going to
convince you. No hard feelings. Fly safe.
The idea of less or no government nanny state hand
holding, especially aviation, blows people away and
they can't deal with it.
There is no mechanism to MAKE amateur built
experimental planes comply with AD's, except urban
legend and a few FAA/DAR's CYA'ing because it
can't hurt and gives them the feeling of job security.
To be fair, I have been in that position and have not
want to sign something off, certification documents,
analysis or a part 121 flight plan.
Now you tell me how AD's work? You can't. There is
no link to experimental. The Gov is busy trying to
change that, as if other things where not more
important.
Individual news letters from individual FSDO's don't
mean squat; often they are wrong and become a
source of controversy. One FSDO in the middle of no
where wrote a news letter and said AD's apply many
many yrs ago and it floats around. It is wrong. This is
where the EAA lawyers talking to the FAA lawyers
come in. This is not a debate or controversy, its a fact.
Believe what you want, I am OK with that.
I'm not saying you should disregard any or all AD's
out of hand. However if the Ref EAA article is not
good enough for you (I assume you are a member)
and talk to legal they will tell you all the references
and reasons. You apparently don't have trust in my
comments. That is OK, you should research it. Make
yourself happy, all the best.
George
>From: "Bob J." <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply?
>Cite the FAR that says AD's only apply to type
>certificated aircraft. No references to EAA's site, no
>personal opinion, just show us where it says
>experimentals are exempt from AD's. Lets see how
>well your argument hypothetically would hold up in
>court.
>Regards,
>Bob Japundza
>RV-6 flying F1 under const.
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER |
In a message dated 3/29/2008 12:37:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
aerokinetic@sbcglobal.net writes:
8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's
. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the
product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it
applies. Some aircraft
owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft
with other than
standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness
certificates in the restricted, limited,
or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make
and model set forth
in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category
of the airworthiness
certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness
certification information are
used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on
applicability by specifying
the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there
is no reference to
serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples
of AD applicability
statements:
Herein lies the issue. I have received numerous ADs in the mail and I always
check applicability. Sometimes they referred to my wife's Cessna by name. I
have never had one refer to one manufactured by Van's. I made sure by checking
the name of the manufacturer on the airworthy certificate and the airframe
data plate and surprisingly it was much like mine (definitely not Van's). Then
I checked the data plate on the engine to see if the engine was a Lyc or
Cont (as referred to in the AD) and it also didn't apply as the manufacturer
name, as noted on the plate, also was similar to mine, serial #0001. My
conclusion? The AD didn't apply to the experimental I owned but possibly to someone
else's.
Jim
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 16
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| Subject: | AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER |
I dunno,,,seems a little like "poking the bear" to me...
The references sited below are pretty clear. Thanks for tracking these down
by the way!
Pretty soon I'm gonna need a forklift in order to pick up my new FAR book each
year because of all of the clarifications that come down from on high...
Dan
Do not archive
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
Thanks Scott. And I think even an obtuse thanks to Mike Robertson,
to whom I continue to hold a lot of respect for.
I will query in writing the legal department of the FAA in Washington through
Mikes former (FSDO NM-09) to get my own comfort level higher. I have heard both
sides for years and remain concerned how people can hold dear to their hearts
(and their passions) that our rules do not apply to them specifically. Somehow
Exceptions and Experimentals seem to run on the same logic. Mike used
a reference of some update Aircraft Certification Management Team date April 28-30,
1998.
I concur with your interpretation of AC39-7C and await a clear and cogent, unambiguous
final resolution in writing, (since 1995 was a long time ago) in the
evolution of Experimental Aircraft. I have not found such with my EAA Headquarters.
This issue will play central to the 51% NPRM on the total overhaul that
the FAA is bent on leveling against OBAM.
John Cox
---------------------------------
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SCOTT SPENCER
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER
ARE AD's APPLICABLE TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT?
After listening to all sides of this argument for the last period of time,
I sought to find out the real answer. I feel that I did. It lies in Paragraph
8 in FAA Advisory Circular AC39-7C dated 11/16/95 -it is the latest version and
supercedes AC 39-7B, Airworthiness Directives, dated April 8, 1987. THERE IS
NO AMBIGUITY HERE.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/ea051001b2ce246e862569b500508099/$FILE/AC39-7C.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/EA051001B2CE246E862569B500508099?OpenDocument&Highlight=experimental
An excerpt from the above AC follows:
EXCERPT
*************************************************
8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying
the
product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies.
Some aircraft
owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with
other than
standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates
in the restricted, limited,
or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make
and model set forth
in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of
the airworthiness
certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness certification
information are
used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on applicability
by specifying
the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there
is no reference to
serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples of
AD applicability
statements:
a. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes, certificated
in
any category." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable
to all airplanes
of the model listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued
to the aircraft.
b. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 Serial Numbers 15-1081
through 15-1098." This statement, or one similarly worded, specifies certain
aircraft by serial
number within a specific model and series regardless of the type of airworthiness
certificate
issued to the aircraft.
c. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series aircraft certificated
in all
categories excluding experimental aircraft." This statement, or one similarly
worded, makes the
AD applicable to all airplanes except those issued experimental airworthiness
certificates.
d. "Applicability: Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes; Cessna
Models 150, 170, 172, and 175 series airplanes; and Piper PA-28-140 airplanes;
certificated in
any category, that have been modified in accordance with STC SA807NM using ABLE
INDUSTRIES, Inc., (Part No. 1234) muffler kits." This statement, or one similarly
worded,
makes the AD applicable to all airplanes listed when altered by the supplemental
type certificate
listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft.
e. Every AD applies to each product identified in the applicability statement,
regardless
of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to
the requirements of the
AD. For products that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that performance
of the
requirements of the AD is affected, the owner/operator must use the authority
provided in the
alternative methods of compliance provision of the AD (see paragraph 12) to request
approval
from the FAA. This approval may address either no action, if the current configuration
eliminates the unsafe condition; or, different actions necessary to address the
unsafe condition
described in the AD. In no case, does the presence of any alteration, modification,
or repair
remove any product from the applicability of this AD. Performance of the requirements
of the
AD is affected if an operator is unable to perform those requirements in the
manner described
in the AD. In short, either the requirements of the AD can be performed as specified
in the AD
and the specified results can be achieved, or they cannot.
*************************************************
-END OF EXCERPT-
The clincher is the statement: "Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly
assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness
certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted,
limited, or experimental category."
END OF DISPUTE !
(but not necessarily the end of discussion)
The waters do get muddier when figuring out what applies to experimentals,
how to comply, FAA enforcement of compliance and the like, but AD's *do* apply
to us. There is no question of that as I read it.
Scott S.
RV-4, Cessna 140
A&P mechanic 18 years
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
---------------------------------
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Two New Lists Added to the Matronics Lineup! |
Dear Listers,
I've added two new Email Lists to the Matronics List and Forum lineup today. These
include the Rans-List and RV12-List. Please surf over to the Matronics List
Subscription page and sign up for these new Lists if they are of interest
to you:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Full support on the Forums, List Browse, Archives, etc. is available.
Rans-List:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rans-List
RV12-List
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV12-List
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Do AD's really apply? |
Regardless of who is right, it only makes sense to determine
if an AD is relevant to the safe operation of your aircraft. I
complied with the Vans -A Service Bulletin BEFORE it was
announced. I am of the opinion that if you stay on asphalt
or contract then you may determine that the SB is not relevant
to safe operation of your aircraft.
Ron Lee
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Do AD's really apply? |
"contract" should be "concrete"
Sigh
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Lee
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply?
Regardless of who is right, it only makes sense to determine
if an AD is relevant to the safe operation of your aircraft. I
complied with the Vans -A Service Bulletin BEFORE it was
announced. I am of the opinion that if you stay on asphalt
or contract then you may determine that the SB is not relevant
to safe operation of your aircraft.
Ron Lee
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Do AD's really apply? |
George, it still seems that you haven't bothered to read FAR part 39. AD's
apply to PRODUCTS, not type certificated aircraft. If your experimental
aircraft has a PRODUCT installed that is covered by an AD, sure as the sky
is blue and the night is black that you are required to comply with the AD.
I have a good friend who happens to be DAR #1, who's ratings and
endorsements span across five pilot certificates. He has testified in 27
court cases or administrative law hearings on behalf of the FAA or against
the FAA. He is 27-0 as an expert witness, and travels the world issuing
CofA's for transport-category, warbirds, and expermentals. I would have to
say he knows his stuff. I asked him if he knew of any enforcement actions
related to non-compliance of AD's on experimental aircraft. His response:
"Yes, it is quite frequent." More of his response:
"Read FAR 39. ADs are issued against "products" and not airworthiness
certificates. If an "aeronautical product" has been found to be a
hazard and
FAA issues an AD against it you must comply with the AD. It matters
not what type of Certificate of Airworthiness the aircraft has."
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 5:58 PM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bob:
> If you are a EAA member. Log In and use the search
> for two letters AD. The first item will be, "Airworthiness
> Directives & Amateur Built Aircraft." Click on that and
> read. If you are not a member I'll send it to you.
>
>
> Bob there is an air of prove it, I dare you; I don't
> believe you? I don't like your tone. I am trying to
> teach you, but if you are not listening, OK fine have
> a nice day. I don't care to fight or convince you.
>
> First its not hypothetical it's a FACT. The EAA
> works with the FAA lawyers and are going to
> Oklahoma and DC all the time. If you don't believe
> them fine. I have not put up any "opinion", it is legal
> fact that some how has blown your fuse. I am
> OK if you disagree, but you have no facts to support
> your opinion or refute.
>
> The prove it part? To prove a negative is like saying
> prove dogs can't talk. The only regulation you need to
> meet is in the front of your experimental aircraft's log
> book and there are no comments about AD's or any
> other part of the FAR's except the ones noted.
>
> Bob, prove AD's must be complied with. You can't. I have
> read all the regs and talked to the lawyers on this matter,
> have you?
>
> Second there is no legal precedence, no lawsuits or
> rulings from a judge. If you are foreseeing lawsuits
> and violations you better comply with all your AD's
> to be conservative.
>
> QUOTE:
> THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT AND
> DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL
> SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD
> AIRCRAFT
>
> Questions?
> Your protest or challenge is prima facie ridiculous. No
> proof is needed. Prove it to yourself. Part 23, 39, 43
> and so on don't APPLY! Next you will tell me I
> need a A&P to work on my RV.
>
> I gave you the references and you should do your own
> research and evaluation. I can't do it for you. You will
> never believe me. I did the leg work and called the
> EAA and read the Regs. If nothing I said makes sense
> to you or rings a cord of truth, I'm not going to
> convince you. No hard feelings. Fly safe.
>
> The idea of less or no government nanny state hand
> holding, especially aviation, blows people away and
> they can't deal with it.
>
> There is no mechanism to MAKE amateur built
> experimental planes comply with AD's, except urban
> legend and a few FAA/DAR's CYA'ing because it
> can't hurt and gives them the feeling of job security.
> To be fair, I have been in that position and have not
> want to sign something off, certification documents,
> analysis or a part 121 flight plan.
>
> Now you tell me how AD's work? You can't. There is
> no link to experimental. The Gov is busy trying to
> change that, as if other things where not more
> important.
>
> Individual news letters from individual FSDO's don't
> mean squat; often they are wrong and become a
> source of controversy. One FSDO in the middle of no
> where wrote a news letter and said AD's apply many
> many yrs ago and it floats around. It is wrong. This is
> where the EAA lawyers talking to the FAA lawyers
> come in. This is not a debate or controversy, its a fact.
> Believe what you want, I am OK with that.
>
> I'm not saying you should disregard any or all AD's
> out of hand. However if the Ref EAA article is not
> good enough for you (I assume you are a member)
> and talk to legal they will tell you all the references
> and reasons. You apparently don't have trust in my
> comments. That is OK, you should research it. Make
> yourself happy, all the best.
>
> George
>
>
> >From: "Bob J." <rocketbob@gmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply?
>
> >Cite the FAR that says AD's only apply to type
> >certificated aircraft. No references to EAA's site, no
> >personal opinion, just show us where it says
> >experimentals are exempt from AD's. Lets see how
> >well your argument hypothetically would hold up in
> >court.
>
> >Regards,
> >Bob Japundza
> >RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
> ">Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Do AD's really apply? |
FAA Form 8130-6, Application for U.S. Airworthiness Certificate Includes the
following certification in section III B Certification Basis. In the EAA's
guidance for this form they recommend that the current "AD revision number"
be included as well as the compliance block checked. This adds further
evidence that AD's need to complied with (not that any more was required)
just another data point.
AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVES (Check if all applicable AD's are compiled with and
give the number of the last AD SUPPLEMENT available in the biweekly series
as of the date of application)
Ralph & Laura Hoover
RV7A N527LR (reserved and registration application filed)
Ready for transport to the airport for final assembly.
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob J.
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply?
George, it still seems that you haven't bothered to read FAR part 39. AD's
apply to PRODUCTS, not type certificated aircraft. If your experimental
aircraft has a PRODUCT installed that is covered by an AD, sure as the sky
is blue and the night is black that you are required to comply with the AD.
I have a good friend who happens to be DAR #1, who's ratings and
endorsements span across five pilot certificates. He has testified in 27
court cases or administrative law hearings on behalf of the FAA or against
the FAA. He is 27-0 as an expert witness, and travels the world issuing
CofA's for transport-category, warbirds, and expermentals. I would have to
say he knows his stuff. I asked him if he knew of any enforcement actions
related to non-compliance of AD's on experimental aircraft. His response:
"Yes, it is quite frequent." More of his response:
"Read FAR 39. ADs are issued against "products" and not airworthiness
certificates. If an "aeronautical product" has been found to be a
hazard and
FAA issues an AD against it you must comply with the AD. It matters
not what type of Certificate of Airworthiness the aircraft has."
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 5:58 PM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bob:
If you are a EAA member. Log In and use the search
for two letters AD. The first item will be, "Airworthiness
Directives & Amateur Built Aircraft." Click on that and
read. If you are not a member I'll send it to you.
Bob there is an air of prove it, I dare you; I don't
believe you? I don't like your tone. I am trying to
teach you, but if you are not listening, OK fine have
a nice day. I don't care to fight or convince you.
First its not hypothetical it's a FACT. The EAA
works with the FAA lawyers and are going to
Oklahoma and DC all the time. If you don't believe
them fine. I have not put up any "opinion", it is legal
fact that some how has blown your fuse. I am
OK if you disagree, but you have no facts to support
your opinion or refute.
The prove it part? To prove a negative is like saying
prove dogs can't talk. The only regulation you need to
meet is in the front of your experimental aircraft's log
book and there are no comments about AD's or any
other part of the FAR's except the ones noted.
Bob, prove AD's must be complied with. You can't. I have
read all the regs and talked to the lawyers on this matter,
have you?
Second there is no legal precedence, no lawsuits or
rulings from a judge. If you are foreseeing lawsuits
and violations you better comply with all your AD's
to be conservative.
QUOTE:
THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT AND
DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL
SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD
AIRCRAFT
Questions?
Your protest or challenge is prima facie ridiculous. No
proof is needed. Prove it to yourself. Part 23, 39, 43
and so on don't APPLY! Next you will tell me I
need a A&P to work on my RV.
I gave you the references and you should do your own
research and evaluation. I can't do it for you. You will
never believe me. I did the leg work and called the
EAA and read the Regs. If nothing I said makes sense
to you or rings a cord of truth, I'm not going to
convince you. No hard feelings. Fly safe.
The idea of less or no government nanny state hand
holding, especially aviation, blows people away and
they can't deal with it.
There is no mechanism to MAKE amateur built
experimental planes comply with AD's, except urban
legend and a few FAA/DAR's CYA'ing because it
can't hurt and gives them the feeling of job security.
To be fair, I have been in that position and have not
want to sign something off, certification documents,
analysis or a part 121 flight plan.
Now you tell me how AD's work? You can't. There is
no link to experimental. The Gov is busy trying to
change that, as if other things where not more
important.
Individual news letters from individual FSDO's don't
mean squat; often they are wrong and become a
source of controversy. One FSDO in the middle of no
where wrote a news letter and said AD's apply many
many yrs ago and it floats around. It is wrong. This is
where the EAA lawyers talking to the FAA lawyers
come in. This is not a debate or controversy, its a fact.
Believe what you want, I am OK with that.
I'm not saying you should disregard any or all AD's
out of hand. However if the Ref EAA article is not
good enough for you (I assume you are a member)
and talk to legal they will tell you all the references
and reasons. You apparently don't have trust in my
comments. That is OK, you should research it. Make
yourself happy, all the best.
George
>From: "Bob J." <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply?
>Cite the FAR that says AD's only apply to type
>certificated aircraft. No references to EAA's site, no
>personal opinion, just show us where it says
>experimentals are exempt from AD's. Lets see how
>well your argument hypothetically would hold up in
>court.
>Regards,
>Bob Japundza
>RV-6 flying F1 under const.
">Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost.
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