---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/29/08: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:35 AM - headset wiring (Robin) 2. 06:37 AM - microphone wiring to plug (Robin) 3. 07:13 AM - Re: headset wiring (Charlie England) 4. 07:13 AM - Re: microphone wiring to plug (Charles Kuss) 5. 07:35 AM - RV7A OVERHEATING (smoothweasel@juno.com) 6. 08:15 AM - F-601TD (Dave Stuebner) 7. 08:49 AM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Kevin Horton) 8. 08:52 AM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Kevin Horton) 9. 09:36 AM - AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (SCOTT SPENCER) 10. 09:41 AM - Re: headset wiring (Vanremog@aol.com) 11. 10:12 AM - Re: microphone wiring to plug (Charles Kuss) 12. 10:45 AM - Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (John W. Cox) 13. 11:48 AM - ADs (Wheeler North) 14. 03:04 PM - Re: Do AD's really apply? () 15. 03:26 PM - Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (JFLEISC@aol.com) 16. 03:33 PM - Re: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER (Dan Reeves) 17. 04:56 PM - Two New Lists Added to the Matronics Lineup! (Matt Dralle) 18. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (Ron Lee) 19. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (Ron Lee) 20. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (Bob J.) 21. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Do AD's really apply? (RALPH HOOVER) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:18 AM PST US From: "Robin" Subject: RV-List: headset wiring I have an older Telex headset that is mono and only has two wires for the speakers and two wires for the microphone. I have the speakers wired up and they work fine. The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these two wires for it to work.. Robin ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:53 AM PST US From: "Robin" Subject: RV-List: microphone wiring to plug The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these two wires for it to work.. Robin ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:21 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: headset wiring Robin wrote: > I have an older Telex headset that is mono and only has two wires for > the speakers and two wires for the microphone. I have the speakers > wired up and they work fine. > The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder > connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location > for these two wires for it to work.. > Robin The tip is intended to carry the Push-To-Talk line. The ring is mic audio 'hi' or 'positive' or '+'. The sleeve is 'lo' or 'return' or 'ground', depending on who writes the docs. If you have an inline portable PTT switch, when you push the button, the tip is connected to the sleeve (pulling the PTT sense line in the radio to near zero volts), telling the radio to go into transmit mode. Charlie ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:21 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: microphone wiring to plug Robin You need to purchase the correct plug. The plug you have is for stereo headphones. You need a "mono" plug. Charlie Kuss --- Robin wrote: > The microphone has two wires but the plug has > three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring, > Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these > two wires for it to work.. > Robin Looking for last minute shopping deals? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:07 AM PST US From: "smoothweasel@juno.com" Subject: RV-List: RV7A OVERHEATING Hello all, It's been a long time since i have found time to read "the li st". I have been helping a friend finish a rv-7a and test fly it. It h as a new superior 360 parallel valve engine, Hartzell blended airfoil pr op, the oil cooler is the one that comes with the finishing kit and is m ounted on the firewall with a 3.5 in scat duct going to it (with no shar p bends in the duct). the cowl air exit is the standard size. ie. no ext ra openings. His problem is over heating oil. With 52 deg. F. Outside air crusing at 24 in map. and 2350rpm on the prop the oil will run about 220-225deg F. The CHT runs about 360-370 deg. F. The engine now has 30hr or more on it. Will the Oil temp drop any more with "break in"? Should it have more ex it air leaving the cowl....some have suggested installing "luvers" on th e botom of the cowl to help with that...? Also the airplane cruises at the above power setting at 8000ft at 164kn TAS he thinks this is a little slow...... Is this what most of you are seeing with the same engine/prop combo??? btw i tried to search the archives on this but didnt find the specific i nfo..........probably dont know how to look it up right... Thanks for any thoughts Weasel RV-4 400hr _____________________________________________________________ Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you thin k. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigjRkllMv4ZGFXw1J0mnPH 95dNcFS3uxBE5YnuT7oNq7kzGL/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:05 AM PST US From: "Dave Stuebner" Subject: RV-List: F-601TD What piece of material is F-601TD made from? I see a a F-601Z on my packing list as a builder part, made from AS3-063x2 1/4x10, but it is grossly oversized. Dave ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:36 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7A OVERHEATING On 29-Mar-08, at 10:28 , smoothweasel@juno.com wrote: > Hello all, It's been a long time since i have found time to read > "the list". I have been helping a friend finish a rv-7a and test > fly it. It has a new superior 360 parallel valve engine, Hartzell > blended airfoil prop, the oil cooler is the one that comes with the > finishing kit and is mounted on the firewall with a 3.5 in scat duct > going to it (with no sharp bends in the duct). the cowl air exit is > the standard size. ie. no extra openings. > > His problem is over heating oil. With 52 deg. F. Outside air > crusing at 24 in map. and 2350rpm on the prop the oil will run about > 220-225deg F. The CHT runs about 360-370 deg. F. The engine now > has 30hr or more on it. > > Will the Oil temp drop any more with "break in"? Should it have > more exit air leaving the cowl....some have suggested installing > "luvers" on the botom of the cowl to help with that...? > > Also the airplane cruises at the above power setting at 8000ft at > 164kn TAS he thinks this is a little slow...... Is this what most > of you are seeing with the same engine/prop combo??? > > btw i tried to search the archives on this but didnt find the > specific info..........probably dont know how to look it up right... > > Has the oil temperature sender been calibrated? You can put it in a pot of boiling water to check its accuracy, keeping in mind that the boiling point changes slightly with altitude. Has the tachometer been calibrated? I agree that the TAS sounds a bit low. How have you determined TAS? If you used IAS corrected for altitude and temperature, it is possible that there are errors in the airspeed system, and/or the indicated OAT. How much EGT rise can you get in cruise if you lean from full rich? At the cruise condition you mention, how many degrees rich or lean of peak EGT were you? What manifold pressure do you get at full throttle at 8000 ft? -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:45 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7A OVERHEATING On 29-Mar-08, at 10:28 , smoothweasel@juno.com wrote: > Also the airplane cruises at the above power setting at 8000ft at > 164kn TAS he thinks this is a little slow...... Is this what most > of you are seeing with the same engine/prop combo??? > One more thing - Please confirm that all the fairings and wheel pants are installed. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:13 AM PST US From: SCOTT SPENCER Subject: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER ARE AD's APPLICABLE TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT? After listening to all sides of this argument for the last period of time, I sought to find out the real answer. I feel that I did. It lies in Paragraph 8 in FAA Advisory Circular AC39-7C dated 11/16/95 -it is the latest version and supercedes AC 39-7B, Airworthiness Directives, dated April 8, 1987. THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY HERE. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/ea051001b2ce246e862569b500508099/$FILE/AC39-7C.pdf http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/EA051001B2CE246E862569B500508099?OpenDocument&Highlight=experimental An excerpt from the above AC follows: EXCERPT ************************************************* 8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make and model set forth in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of the airworthiness certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness certification information are used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on applicability by specifying the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there is no reference to serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples of AD applicability statements: a. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes, certificated in any category." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes of the model listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. b. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 Serial Numbers 15-1081 through 15-1098." This statement, or one similarly worded, specifies certain aircraft by serial number within a specific model and series regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. c. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series aircraft certificated in all categories excluding experimental aircraft." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes except those issued experimental airworthiness certificates. d. "Applicability: Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes; Cessna Models 150, 170, 172, and 175 series airplanes; and Piper PA-28-140 airplanes; certificated in any category, that have been modified in accordance with STC SA807NM using ABLE INDUSTRIES, Inc., (Part No. 1234) muffler kits." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes listed when altered by the supplemental type certificate listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. e. Every AD applies to each product identified in the applicability statement, regardless of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements of the AD. For products that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that performance of the requirements of the AD is affected, the owner/operator must use the authority provided in the alternative methods of compliance provision of the AD (see paragraph 12) to request approval from the FAA. This approval may address either no action, if the current configuration eliminates the unsafe condition; or, different actions necessary to address the unsafe condition described in the AD. In no case, does the presence of any alteration, modification, or repair remove any product from the applicability of this AD. Performance of the requirements of the AD is affected if an operator is unable to perform those requirements in the manner described in the AD. In short, either the requirements of the AD can be performed as specified in the AD and the specified results can be achieved, or they cannot. ************************************************* -END OF EXCERPT- The clincher is the statement: "Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category." END OF DISPUTE ! (but not necessarily the end of discussion) The waters do get muddier when figuring out what applies to experimentals, how to comply, FAA enforcement of compliance and the like, but AD's *do* apply to us. There is no question of that as I read it. Scott S. RV-4, Cessna 140 A&P mechanic 18 years ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:23 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: headset wiring In a message dated 3/29/2008 6:36:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rivet-smasher@comcast.net writes: The microphone has two wires but the plug has three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring, Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these two wires for it to work. =================================================== The proper plug is called a TRS (tip, ring, sleeve) and the mic connections on a normally wired aircraft are MIC=Ring and MIC_RTN=Sleeve. If you use an external (inline) Mic key switch then MIC_KEY=TIP. N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 887hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:48 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: microphone wiring to plug Robin, Please ignore my earlier advice. I had my head up my a$$. For some reason, I was thinking that you were dealing with a headset jack, NOT a microphone jack. Sorry. Charlie --- Charles Kuss wrote: > > > Robin > You need to purchase the correct plug. The plug you > have is for stereo headphones. You need a "mono" > plug. > Charlie Kuss > > --- Robin wrote: > > > The microphone has two wires but the plug has > > three solder connections on it, Tip, Ring, > > Sleeve.... Which is the proper location for these > > two wires for it to work.. > > Robin > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > browse > Un/Subscription, > FAQ, > > Forums! > > Admin. > > > > > Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text4.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER From: "John W. Cox" Thanks Scott. And I think even an obtuse thanks to Mike Robertson, to whom I continue to hold a lot of respect for. I will query in writing the legal department of the FAA in Washington through Mike's former (FSDO NM-09) to get my own comfort level higher. I have heard both sides for years and remain concerned how people can hold dear to their hearts (and their passions) that our rules do not apply to them specifically. Somehow "Exceptions and Experimentals" seem to run on the same logic. Mike used a reference of some update Aircraft Certification Management Team date April 28-30, 1998. I concur with your interpretation of AC39-7C and await a clear and cogent, unambiguous final resolution in writing, (since 1995 was a long time ago) in the evolution of Experimental Aircraft. I have not found such with my EAA Headquarters. This issue will play central to the 51% NPRM on the total overhaul that the FAA is bent on leveling against OBAM. John Cox ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SCOTT SPENCER Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER ARE AD's APPLICABLE TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT? After listening to all sides of this argument for the last period of time, I sought to find out the real answer. I feel that I did. It lies in Paragraph 8 in FAA Advisory Circular AC39-7C dated 11/16/95 -it is the latest version and supercedes AC 39-7B, Airworthiness Directives, dated April 8, 1987. THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY HERE. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.ns f/0/ea051001b2ce246e862569b500508099/$FILE/AC39-7C.pdf http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.ns f/0/EA051001B2CE246E862569B500508099?OpenDocument&Highlight=experimenta l An excerpt from the above AC follows: EXCERPT ************************************************* 8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make and model set forth in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of the airworthiness certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness certification information are used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on applicability by specifying the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there is no reference to serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples of AD applicability statements: a. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes, certificated in any category." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes of the model listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. b. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 Serial Numbers 15-1081 through 15-1098." This statement, or one similarly worded, specifies certain aircraft by serial number within a specific model and series regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. c. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series aircraft certificated in all categories excluding experimental aircraft." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes except those issued experimental airworthiness certificates. d. "Applicability: Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes; Cessna Models 150, 170, 172, and 175 series airplanes; and Piper PA-28-140 airplanes; certificated in any category, that have been modified in accordance with STC SA807NM using ABLE INDUSTRIES, Inc., (Part No. 1234) muffler kits." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes listed when altered by the supplemental type certificate listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. e. Every AD applies to each product identified in the applicability statement, regardless of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements of the AD. For products that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that performance of the requirements of the AD is affected, the owner/operator must use the authority provided in the alternative methods of compliance provision of the AD (see paragraph 12) to request approval from the FAA. This approval may address either no action, if the current configuration eliminates the unsafe condition; or, different actions necessary to address the unsafe condition described in the AD. In no case, does the presence of any alteration, modification, or repair remove any product from the applicability of this AD. Performance of the requirements of the AD is "affected" if an operator is unable to perform those requirements in the manner described in the AD. In short, either the requirements of the AD can be performed as specified in the AD and the specified results can be achieved, or they cannot. ************************************************* -END OF EXCERPT- The clincher is the statement: "Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category." END OF DISPUTE ! (but not necessarily the end of discussion) The waters do get muddier when figuring out what applies to experimentals, how to comply, FAA enforcement of compliance and the like, but AD's *do* apply to us. There is no question of that as I read it. Scott S. RV-4, Cessna 140 A&P mechanic 18 years ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:39 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: ADs From: "Wheeler North" This seems to come around again and again... Airworthiness Directives apply to what the AD says it applies to,,, period!!! There is no policy, regulation or law that limits this, anywhere, anywhat, anywho, or anyhow. They can, and I have seen them apply to one or any range of any type certificated device or appliance by make, model, month, year, day, serial number, category, airworthiness category, etc. They can also apply to work done by any facility or person whether certified or not. They can also apply to any (RFO) registered flying object or part thereof by N-number or part number, which includes every airborne object except for ice cubes, rocks, ultralights and birds not registered as B1RD or GU11. They can even apply to prior approvals by the FAA themselves. The reason you will see very few AD's in the EXP world is because most require some form of approved procedure or parts, neither of which are possible in the EXP arena because nothing defines this. But make no mistake, an AD that says "This applies to all aircraft that has P/N XZY111 crankshaft installed must comply yadi yadi." it applies to your airplane if that part is installed. Your airworthiness category does not refute this even if it might be next to impossible to prove the part is installed. If you have knowledge it is installed or is likely to be installed you will be committing fraud by claiming it does not apply. In many instances a violation would be difficult to impose, but a civil action would be very easy to argue. W ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:03 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? Bob: If you are a EAA member. Log In and use the search for two letters AD. The first item will be, "Airworthiness Directives & Amateur Built Aircraft." Click on that and read. If you are not a member I'll send it to you. Bob there is an air of prove it, I dare you; I don't believe you? I don't like your tone. I am trying to teach you, but if you are not listening, OK fine have a nice day. I don't care to fight or convince you. First its not hypothetical it's a FACT. The EAA works with the FAA lawyers and are going to Oklahoma and DC all the time. If you don't believe them fine. I have not put up any "opinion", it is legal fact that some how has blown your fuse. I am OK if you disagree, but you have no facts to support your opinion or refute. The prove it part? To prove a negative is like saying prove dogs can't talk. The only regulation you need to meet is in the front of your experimental aircraft's log book and there are no comments about AD's or any other part of the FAR's except the ones noted. Bob, prove AD's must be complied with. You can't. I have read all the regs and talked to the lawyers on this matter, have you? Second there is no legal precedence, no lawsuits or rulings from a judge. If you are foreseeing lawsuits and violations you better comply with all your AD's to be conservative. QUOTE: THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT AND DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD AIRCRAFT Questions? Your protest or challenge is prima facie ridiculous. No proof is needed. Prove it to yourself. Part 23, 39, 43 and so on don't APPLY! Next you will tell me I need a A&P to work on my RV. I gave you the references and you should do your own research and evaluation. I can't do it for you. You will never believe me. I did the leg work and called the EAA and read the Regs. If nothing I said makes sense to you or rings a cord of truth, I'm not going to convince you. No hard feelings. Fly safe. The idea of less or no government nanny state hand holding, especially aviation, blows people away and they can't deal with it. There is no mechanism to MAKE amateur built experimental planes comply with AD's, except urban legend and a few FAA/DAR's CYA'ing because it can't hurt and gives them the feeling of job security. To be fair, I have been in that position and have not want to sign something off, certification documents, analysis or a part 121 flight plan. Now you tell me how AD's work? You can't. There is no link to experimental. The Gov is busy trying to change that, as if other things where not more important. Individual news letters from individual FSDO's don't mean squat; often they are wrong and become a source of controversy. One FSDO in the middle of no where wrote a news letter and said AD's apply many many yrs ago and it floats around. It is wrong. This is where the EAA lawyers talking to the FAA lawyers come in. This is not a debate or controversy, its a fact. Believe what you want, I am OK with that. I'm not saying you should disregard any or all AD's out of hand. However if the Ref EAA article is not good enough for you (I assume you are a member) and talk to legal they will tell you all the references and reasons. You apparently don't have trust in my comments. That is OK, you should research it. Make yourself happy, all the best. George >From: "Bob J." >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? >Cite the FAR that says AD's only apply to type >certificated aircraft. No references to EAA's site, no >personal opinion, just show us where it says >experimentals are exempt from AD's. Lets see how >well your argument hypothetically would hold up in >court. >Regards, >Bob Japundza >RV-6 flying F1 under const. --------------------------------- Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:54 PM PST US From: JFLEISC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER In a message dated 3/29/2008 12:37:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aerokinetic@sbcglobal.net writes: 8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's . Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make and model set forth in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of the airworthiness certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness certification information are used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on applicability by specifying the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there is no reference to serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples of AD applicability statements: Herein lies the issue. I have received numerous ADs in the mail and I always check applicability. Sometimes they referred to my wife's Cessna by name. I have never had one refer to one manufactured by Van's. I made sure by checking the name of the manufacturer on the airworthy certificate and the airframe data plate and surprisingly it was much like mine (definitely not Van's). Then I checked the data plate on the engine to see if the engine was a Lyc or Cont (as referred to in the AD) and it also didn't apply as the manufacturer name, as noted on the plate, also was similar to mine, serial #0001. My conclusion? The AD didn't apply to the experimental I owned but possibly to someone else's. Jim **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:55 PM PST US From: Dan Reeves Subject: RE: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER I dunno,,,seems a little like "poking the bear" to me... The references sited below are pretty clear. Thanks for tracking these down by the way! Pretty soon I'm gonna need a forklift in order to pick up my new FAR book each year because of all of the clarifications that come down from on high... Dan Do not archive "John W. Cox" wrote: Thanks Scott. And I think even an obtuse thanks to Mike Robertson, to whom I continue to hold a lot of respect for. I will query in writing the legal department of the FAA in Washington through Mikes former (FSDO NM-09) to get my own comfort level higher. I have heard both sides for years and remain concerned how people can hold dear to their hearts (and their passions) that our rules do not apply to them specifically. Somehow Exceptions and Experimentals seem to run on the same logic. Mike used a reference of some update Aircraft Certification Management Team date April 28-30, 1998. I concur with your interpretation of AC39-7C and await a clear and cogent, unambiguous final resolution in writing, (since 1995 was a long time ago) in the evolution of Experimental Aircraft. I have not found such with my EAA Headquarters. This issue will play central to the 51% NPRM on the total overhaul that the FAA is bent on leveling against OBAM. John Cox --------------------------------- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SCOTT SPENCER Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: RV-List: AD COMPLIANCE -THE FINAL ANSWER ARE AD's APPLICABLE TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT? After listening to all sides of this argument for the last period of time, I sought to find out the real answer. I feel that I did. It lies in Paragraph 8 in FAA Advisory Circular AC39-7C dated 11/16/95 -it is the latest version and supercedes AC 39-7B, Airworthiness Directives, dated April 8, 1987. THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY HERE. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/ea051001b2ce246e862569b500508099/$FILE/AC39-7C.pdf http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/EA051001B2CE246E862569B500508099?OpenDocument&Highlight=experimental An excerpt from the above AC follows: EXCERPT ************************************************* 8. APPLICABILITY OF AD's. Each AD contains an applicability statement specifying the product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) to which it applies. Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make and model set forth in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of the airworthiness certificate issued for the aircraft. Type certificate and airworthiness certification information are used to identify the product affected. Limitations may be placed on applicability by specifying the serial number or number series to which the AD is applicable. When there is no reference to serial numbers, all serial numbers are affected. The following are examples of AD applicability statements: a. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes, certificated in any category." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes of the model listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. b. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 Serial Numbers 15-1081 through 15-1098." This statement, or one similarly worded, specifies certain aircraft by serial number within a specific model and series regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. c. "Applies to Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series aircraft certificated in all categories excluding experimental aircraft." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes except those issued experimental airworthiness certificates. d. "Applicability: Smith (Formerly Robin Aero) RA-15-150 series airplanes; Cessna Models 150, 170, 172, and 175 series airplanes; and Piper PA-28-140 airplanes; certificated in any category, that have been modified in accordance with STC SA807NM using ABLE INDUSTRIES, Inc., (Part No. 1234) muffler kits." This statement, or one similarly worded, makes the AD applicable to all airplanes listed when altered by the supplemental type certificate listed, regardless of the type of airworthiness certificate issued to the aircraft. e. Every AD applies to each product identified in the applicability statement, regardless of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements of the AD. For products that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that performance of the requirements of the AD is affected, the owner/operator must use the authority provided in the alternative methods of compliance provision of the AD (see paragraph 12) to request approval from the FAA. This approval may address either no action, if the current configuration eliminates the unsafe condition; or, different actions necessary to address the unsafe condition described in the AD. In no case, does the presence of any alteration, modification, or repair remove any product from the applicability of this AD. Performance of the requirements of the AD is affected if an operator is unable to perform those requirements in the manner described in the AD. In short, either the requirements of the AD can be performed as specified in the AD and the specified results can be achieved, or they cannot. ************************************************* -END OF EXCERPT- The clincher is the statement: "Some aircraft owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited, or experimental category." END OF DISPUTE ! (but not necessarily the end of discussion) The waters do get muddier when figuring out what applies to experimentals, how to comply, FAA enforcement of compliance and the like, but AD's *do* apply to us. There is no question of that as I read it. Scott S. RV-4, Cessna 140 A&P mechanic 18 years http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution --------------------------------- OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:02 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Two New Lists Added to the Matronics Lineup! Dear Listers, I've added two new Email Lists to the Matronics List and Forum lineup today. These include the Rans-List and RV12-List. Please surf over to the Matronics List Subscription page and sign up for these new Lists if they are of interest to you: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Full support on the Forums, List Browse, Archives, etc. is available. Rans-List: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rans-List RV12-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV12-List Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:07 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? Regardless of who is right, it only makes sense to determine if an AD is relevant to the safe operation of your aircraft. I complied with the Vans -A Service Bulletin BEFORE it was announced. I am of the opinion that if you stay on asphalt or contract then you may determine that the SB is not relevant to safe operation of your aircraft. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:05 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? "contract" should be "concrete" Sigh ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:00 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? Regardless of who is right, it only makes sense to determine if an AD is relevant to the safe operation of your aircraft. I complied with the Vans -A Service Bulletin BEFORE it was announced. I am of the opinion that if you stay on asphalt or contract then you may determine that the SB is not relevant to safe operation of your aircraft. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:10 PM PST US From: "Bob J." Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? George, it still seems that you haven't bothered to read FAR part 39. AD's apply to PRODUCTS, not type certificated aircraft. If your experimental aircraft has a PRODUCT installed that is covered by an AD, sure as the sky is blue and the night is black that you are required to comply with the AD. I have a good friend who happens to be DAR #1, who's ratings and endorsements span across five pilot certificates. He has testified in 27 court cases or administrative law hearings on behalf of the FAA or against the FAA. He is 27-0 as an expert witness, and travels the world issuing CofA's for transport-category, warbirds, and expermentals. I would have to say he knows his stuff. I asked him if he knew of any enforcement actions related to non-compliance of AD's on experimental aircraft. His response: "Yes, it is quite frequent." More of his response: "Read FAR 39. ADs are issued against "products" and not airworthiness certificates. If an "aeronautical product" has been found to be a hazard and FAA issues an AD against it you must comply with the AD. It matters not what type of Certificate of Airworthiness the aircraft has." Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 5:58 PM, wrote: > Bob: > If you are a EAA member. Log In and use the search > for two letters AD. The first item will be, "Airworthiness > Directives & Amateur Built Aircraft." Click on that and > read. If you are not a member I'll send it to you. > > > Bob there is an air of prove it, I dare you; I don't > believe you? I don't like your tone. I am trying to > teach you, but if you are not listening, OK fine have > a nice day. I don't care to fight or convince you. > > First its not hypothetical it's a FACT. The EAA > works with the FAA lawyers and are going to > Oklahoma and DC all the time. If you don't believe > them fine. I have not put up any "opinion", it is legal > fact that some how has blown your fuse. I am > OK if you disagree, but you have no facts to support > your opinion or refute. > > The prove it part? To prove a negative is like saying > prove dogs can't talk. The only regulation you need to > meet is in the front of your experimental aircraft's log > book and there are no comments about AD's or any > other part of the FAR's except the ones noted. > > Bob, prove AD's must be complied with. You can't. I have > read all the regs and talked to the lawyers on this matter, > have you? > > Second there is no legal precedence, no lawsuits or > rulings from a judge. If you are foreseeing lawsuits > and violations you better comply with all your AD's > to be conservative. > > QUOTE: > THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT AND > DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL > SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD > AIRCRAFT > > Questions? > Your protest or challenge is prima facie ridiculous. No > proof is needed. Prove it to yourself. Part 23, 39, 43 > and so on don't APPLY! Next you will tell me I > need a A&P to work on my RV. > > I gave you the references and you should do your own > research and evaluation. I can't do it for you. You will > never believe me. I did the leg work and called the > EAA and read the Regs. If nothing I said makes sense > to you or rings a cord of truth, I'm not going to > convince you. No hard feelings. Fly safe. > > The idea of less or no government nanny state hand > holding, especially aviation, blows people away and > they can't deal with it. > > There is no mechanism to MAKE amateur built > experimental planes comply with AD's, except urban > legend and a few FAA/DAR's CYA'ing because it > can't hurt and gives them the feeling of job security. > To be fair, I have been in that position and have not > want to sign something off, certification documents, > analysis or a part 121 flight plan. > > Now you tell me how AD's work? You can't. There is > no link to experimental. The Gov is busy trying to > change that, as if other things where not more > important. > > Individual news letters from individual FSDO's don't > mean squat; often they are wrong and become a > source of controversy. One FSDO in the middle of no > where wrote a news letter and said AD's apply many > many yrs ago and it floats around. It is wrong. This is > where the EAA lawyers talking to the FAA lawyers > come in. This is not a debate or controversy, its a fact. > Believe what you want, I am OK with that. > > I'm not saying you should disregard any or all AD's > out of hand. However if the Ref EAA article is not > good enough for you (I assume you are a member) > and talk to legal they will tell you all the references > and reasons. You apparently don't have trust in my > comments. That is OK, you should research it. Make > yourself happy, all the best. > > George > > > >From: "Bob J." > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? > > >Cite the FAR that says AD's only apply to type > >certificated aircraft. No references to EAA's site, no > >personal opinion, just show us where it says > >experimentals are exempt from AD's. Lets see how > >well your argument hypothetically would hold up in > >court. > > >Regards, > >Bob Japundza > >RV-6 flying F1 under const. > > ">Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:57 PM PST US From: "RALPH HOOVER" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? FAA Form 8130-6, Application for U.S. Airworthiness Certificate Includes the following certification in section III B Certification Basis. In the EAA's guidance for this form they recommend that the current "AD revision number" be included as well as the compliance block checked. This adds further evidence that AD's need to complied with (not that any more was required) just another data point. AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVES (Check if all applicable AD's are compiled with and give the number of the last AD SUPPLEMENT available in the biweekly series as of the date of application) Ralph & Laura Hoover RV7A N527LR (reserved and registration application filed) Ready for transport to the airport for final assembly. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob J. Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:25 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? George, it still seems that you haven't bothered to read FAR part 39. AD's apply to PRODUCTS, not type certificated aircraft. If your experimental aircraft has a PRODUCT installed that is covered by an AD, sure as the sky is blue and the night is black that you are required to comply with the AD. I have a good friend who happens to be DAR #1, who's ratings and endorsements span across five pilot certificates. He has testified in 27 court cases or administrative law hearings on behalf of the FAA or against the FAA. He is 27-0 as an expert witness, and travels the world issuing CofA's for transport-category, warbirds, and expermentals. I would have to say he knows his stuff. I asked him if he knew of any enforcement actions related to non-compliance of AD's on experimental aircraft. His response: "Yes, it is quite frequent." More of his response: "Read FAR 39. ADs are issued against "products" and not airworthiness certificates. If an "aeronautical product" has been found to be a hazard and FAA issues an AD against it you must comply with the AD. It matters not what type of Certificate of Airworthiness the aircraft has." Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 5:58 PM, wrote: Bob: If you are a EAA member. Log In and use the search for two letters AD. The first item will be, "Airworthiness Directives & Amateur Built Aircraft." Click on that and read. If you are not a member I'll send it to you. Bob there is an air of prove it, I dare you; I don't believe you? I don't like your tone. I am trying to teach you, but if you are not listening, OK fine have a nice day. I don't care to fight or convince you. First its not hypothetical it's a FACT. The EAA works with the FAA lawyers and are going to Oklahoma and DC all the time. If you don't believe them fine. I have not put up any "opinion", it is legal fact that some how has blown your fuse. I am OK if you disagree, but you have no facts to support your opinion or refute. The prove it part? To prove a negative is like saying prove dogs can't talk. The only regulation you need to meet is in the front of your experimental aircraft's log book and there are no comments about AD's or any other part of the FAR's except the ones noted. Bob, prove AD's must be complied with. You can't. I have read all the regs and talked to the lawyers on this matter, have you? Second there is no legal precedence, no lawsuits or rulings from a judge. If you are foreseeing lawsuits and violations you better comply with all your AD's to be conservative. QUOTE: THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT AND DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD AIRCRAFT Questions? Your protest or challenge is prima facie ridiculous. No proof is needed. Prove it to yourself. Part 23, 39, 43 and so on don't APPLY! Next you will tell me I need a A&P to work on my RV. I gave you the references and you should do your own research and evaluation. I can't do it for you. You will never believe me. I did the leg work and called the EAA and read the Regs. If nothing I said makes sense to you or rings a cord of truth, I'm not going to convince you. No hard feelings. Fly safe. The idea of less or no government nanny state hand holding, especially aviation, blows people away and they can't deal with it. There is no mechanism to MAKE amateur built experimental planes comply with AD's, except urban legend and a few FAA/DAR's CYA'ing because it can't hurt and gives them the feeling of job security. To be fair, I have been in that position and have not want to sign something off, certification documents, analysis or a part 121 flight plan. Now you tell me how AD's work? You can't. There is no link to experimental. The Gov is busy trying to change that, as if other things where not more important. Individual news letters from individual FSDO's don't mean squat; often they are wrong and become a source of controversy. One FSDO in the middle of no where wrote a news letter and said AD's apply many many yrs ago and it floats around. It is wrong. This is where the EAA lawyers talking to the FAA lawyers come in. This is not a debate or controversy, its a fact. Believe what you want, I am OK with that. I'm not saying you should disregard any or all AD's out of hand. However if the Ref EAA article is not good enough for you (I assume you are a member) and talk to legal they will tell you all the references and reasons. You apparently don't have trust in my comments. That is OK, you should research it. Make yourself happy, all the best. George >From: "Bob J." >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Do AD's really apply? >Cite the FAR that says AD's only apply to type >certificated aircraft. No references to EAA's site, no >personal opinion, just show us where it says >experimentals are exempt from AD's. Lets see how >well your argument hypothetically would hold up in >court. >Regards, >Bob Japundza >RV-6 flying F1 under const. 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