---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/04/08: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Florida Use Tax (Russell Daves) 2. 07:45 AM - Re: Florida Use Tax (mike humphrey) 3. 09:46 AM - Re: Florida Use Tax .... and sales tax (linn Walters) 4. 10:50 AM - Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (Richard Dudley) 5. 11:19 AM - Re: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (Bruce Gray) 6. 12:50 PM - Re: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (Dana Overall) 7. 01:19 PM - Re: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (linn Walters) 8. 02:20 PM - Used RV buying best practices (Larry James) 9. 02:40 PM - Re: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (Charlie England) 10. 02:51 PM - Re: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (Scott) 11. 05:23 PM - Re: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale (Dana Overall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:21 AM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: RV-List: Florida Use Tax For those going to Sun & Fun it does not appear that there is any problem with the Florida use tax. FMI read: http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080328fl.pdf Russ Daves N710RV- Flying RV-10 RV-7 Wings and Tail finished ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:08 AM PST US From: "mike humphrey" Subject: Re: RV-List: Florida Use Tax Yeah, unless you need repair, an officer of a company with 'connection to FL', bought your plane from an individual, believe that they 'don't do ramp checks', etc. etc. In reality, SNF flyers probably will not be affected, but only because the DOR does not want the bad publicity. The response to AOPA's questions actually contradicted the statues on a couple of points. In one instance the response states 'no use tax imposed for non-residents with aircraft less than 6 months old', but the statues actually state that 'a use tax will be imposed if you need repair, training, commercial operation'. The responder actually doesn't understand the statues himself since two different statues contradict each other, and he only sites one statue as the I wonder if other states have similar statues? If so, I pity FL residents that have to temporarily relocate their a/c due to hurricanes, or have their a/c repaired due to hurricane damage, or want to train in another state. But what can you expect from a welfare based state, where there are more people on welfare than working. Here in KY 10% of the population(working) SUPPORT the other 90% of the population(non-working). I bet that it is similar percentages in FL. Tax you to the grave vs. solving the problem-get more people working and stop the unnecessary free handouts. I will now get off my soapbox and return you to your normal broadcast, Mike H ----- Original Message ----- From: Russell Daves To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 7:29 AM Subject: RV-List: Florida Use Tax For those going to Sun & Fun it does not appear that there is any problem with the Florida use tax. FMI read: http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080328fl.pdf Russ Daves N710RV- Flying RV-10 RV-7 Wings and Tail finished ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:29 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Florida Use Tax .... and sales tax FL used to have a true 'use tax' with the attendant sticker in the window of your airplane. Those airplanes tied down outside were easy prey to the tax man when he walked down the line. No sticker??? You got a letter strongly suggesting you get one. The repair, training etc. is subject to FLs 6% sales tax just like everything else. 'Services' used to be exempt, but that changed too. For years the vendors at SNF didn't charge sales tax, but the feds found out and now there's even a FL tax tent!!! Better to pay for your stuff and have them ship it to you after the show, unless shipping will cost more than the 6%. Oh yeah, some counties have an optional, additional penny sales tax. I wasn't even aware that there were statutes on the books for a 'use tax' in FL, probably because it isn't enforced. Buy an airplane from out of state, and they'll send you a letter for the tax after the registration changes. The tax guys get the FAA database and send letters to the new entries ...... probably sorted by date of transaction. If you can show that you paid sales tax to the sellers state, you won't have to pay twice. Linn do not archive. mike humphrey wrote: > Yeah, unless you need repair, an officer of a company with 'connection > to FL', bought your plane from an individual, believe that they 'don't > do ramp checks', etc. etc. In reality, SNF flyers probably will not > be affected, but only because the DOR does not want the bad > publicity. The response to AOPA's questions actually contradicted the > statues on a couple of points. In one instance the response states > 'no use tax imposed for non-residents with aircraft less than 6 months > old', but the statues actually state that 'a use tax will be imposed > if you need repair, training, commercial operation'. The responder > actually doesn't understand the statues himself since two different > statues contradict each other, and he only sites one statue as the I > wonder if other states have similar statues? If so, I pity FL > residents that have to temporarily relocate their a/c due to > hurricanes, or have their a/c repaired due to hurricane damage, or > want to train in another state. But what can you expect from a > welfare based state, where there are more people on welfare than > working. Here in KY 10% of the population(working) SUPPORT the other > 90% of the population(non-working). I bet that it is similar > percentages in FL. Tax you to the grave vs. solving the problem-get > more people working and stop the unnecessary free handouts. > I will now get off my soapbox and return you to your normal broadcast, > Mike H > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Russell Daves > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 7:29 AM > Subject: RV-List: Florida Use Tax > > For those going to Sun & Fun it does not appear that there is any > problem with the Florida use tax. FMI read: > > http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080328fl.pdf > > Russ Daves > N710RV- Flying RV-10 > RV-7 Wings and Tail finished > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:04 AM PST US From: "Richard Dudley" Subject: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale Listers, These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an OBAM/Amateur Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the aircraft by whatever means: electronic transfer, cashier's check, certified check or cash, and that 5+ figure amount is put into your "whatever" account, anything over $10K requires the bank or other financial institution to report it to some federal government agency since there is concern about the cleanliness of the money. My questions are: 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for and reporting the sale amount? A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and parts cost of building? B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? OR C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and the sale price called "ordinary income". Thanks for any experience or insight. Regards, Richard Dudley RV-6A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:02 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale I'm not a lawyer but I believe that the 10k rule applies to cash transactions only. Any other method, check, wire transfer, etc, leaves a paper trail. Which is all the feds are concerned about. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Dudley Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 1:46 PM Subject: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale Listers, These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an OBAM/Amateur Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the aircraft by whatever means: electronic transfer, cashier's check, certified check or cash, and that 5+ figure amount is put into your "whatever" account, anything over $10K requires the bank or other financial institution to report it to some federal government agency since there is concern about the cleanliness of the money. My questions are: 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for and reporting the sale amount? A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and parts cost of building? B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? OR C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and the sale price called "ordinary income". Thanks for any experience or insight. Regards, Richard Dudley RV-6A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:22 PM PST US From: Dana Overall Subject: RE: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale Richard, there is no reporting requirement by banks to the IRS unless it is a cash transaction of 10K or over. Multiple cash transactions in repetiti on that indicate an attempt to circumvent the 10K cash transaction reportin g requirements, will give rise to the bank notifying the IRS. Unless you a re in the business of selling airplanes, there are no income tax implicatio ns attached to the sale of personal property. No need to worry about cost, labor, whatever. Remember, you got what you paid for. I only license to practice in KY. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive From: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net Subject: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale Listers, These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an OBAM/Amateur Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the aircraft by whatever means: electronic transfer, cashier=92s check, certified check or cash, and that 5 + figure amount is put into your "whatever" account, anything over $10K requi res the bank or other financial institution to report it to some federal govern ment agency since there is concern about the cleanliness of the money. My questions are: 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for and reporting the sale amount? A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and parts cost of building? B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? OR C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and the sale price called "ordinary income". Thanks for any experience or insight. Regards, Richard Dudley RV-6A _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_instantaccess_042008 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:17 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale Richard Dudley wrote: > Listers, > > These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an OBAM/Amateur > Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the aircraft by > whatever means: electronic transfer, cashier's check, certified check > or cash, and that 5+ figure amount is put into your "whatever" > account, anything over $10K requires the bank or other financial > institution to report it to some federal government agency since there > is concern about the cleanliness of the money. > This is true only if it's CASH! > My questions are: > > 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? > None ..... well, see below. > 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for and > reporting the sale amount? > My info is old, so check the present validity. If it's cash, you must provide Who you got it from (SS# if possible) and why the transaction was in cash etc. I deal in much larger quantities than 10K, but only in those methods EXCEPT CASH. > A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and parts > cost of building? > I guess if you're telling the IRS that you sold an airplane for profit .... that's your fault. Would you include the sale of a car you fixed up and sold??? I think not. > B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? > I doubt it. > OR > > C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and the > sale price called "ordinary income". > This would be the case if you report it. However, if the transaction method is something other than cash ....... How do they know that you even had an airplane ..... unless you've been deducting it etc.???? > Thanks for any experience or insight. > Well, maybe not experience in selling stuff ..... The only thing I ever got rid of was my first wife, but I do have to file income tax. This posting is for entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as advise on how to maintain or operate an aircraft or any financial transaction. Linn ...... do not archive > > > Regards, > > > > Richard Dudley > > RV-6A > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:39 PM PST US From: "Larry James" Subject: RV-List: Used RV buying best practices I started down the path of buying a flying RV and decided to go another route. After traveling to see a few aircraft and coming away very disappointed, something I found helpful was to ask the owner/builder to take photos of the "worst areas" of the aircraft and send them to me. This helped a bit in my initial screening process. Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:43 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale RE: income tax implications: Aren't you legally obligated to pay either capital gains or income tax on the difference between cost & sale price if you sell for more than you paid. There's even a place on the tax return for 'hobby income'. Whether you choose to do the legal thing or the American thing is another question. ;-) Charlie Dana Overall wrote: > Richard, there is no reporting requirement by banks to the IRS unless > it is a cash transaction of 10K or over. Multiple cash transactions > in repetition that indicate an attempt to circumvent the 10K cash > transaction reporting requirements, will give rise to the bank > notifying the IRS. Unless you are in the business of selling > airplanes, there are no income tax implications attached to the sale > of personal property. No need to worry about cost, labor, whatever. > > Remember, you got what you paid for. I only license to practice in KY. > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:45:43 -0400 > > Listers, > These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an > OBAM/Amateur Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the > aircraft by whatever means: electronic transfer, cashiers check, > certified check or cash, and that 5+ figure amount is put into > your "whatever" account, anything over $10K requires the bank or > other financial institution to report it to some federal > government agency since there is concern about the cleanliness of > the money. > My questions are: > 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? > 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for > and reporting the sale amount? > A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and > parts cost of building? > B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? *OR* > C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and > the sale price called "ordinary income". > > Thanks for any experience or insight. > > Regards, > > Richard Dudley > RV-6A > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:08 PM PST US From: Scott Subject: Re: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale That's why I've heard of a lot of planes being sold for "$1 plus other valuable consideration." Even I wouldn't mind paying tax on a buck ;) (and the other valuable consideration might consist of a verbal "I won't sue you if it falls apart"...) Scott Charlie England wrote: > > RE: income tax implications: > Aren't you legally obligated to pay either capital gains or income tax > on the difference between cost & sale price if you sell for more than > you paid. There's even a place on the tax return for 'hobby income'. > > Whether you choose to do the legal thing or the American thing is > another question. ;-) > > Charlie > > Dana Overall wrote: > >> Richard, there is no reporting requirement by banks to the IRS unless >> it is a cash transaction of 10K or over. Multiple cash transactions >> in repetition that indicate an attempt to circumvent the 10K cash >> transaction reporting requirements, will give rise to the bank >> notifying the IRS. Unless you are in the business of selling >> airplanes, there are no income tax implications attached to the sale >> of personal property. No need to worry about cost, labor, whatever. >> >> Remember, you got what you paid for. I only license to practice in KY. >> >> Dana Overall >> Richmond, KY i39 >> RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying >> O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 >> http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 >> http://rvflying.tripod.com >> do not archive >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> From: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale >> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:45:43 -0400 >> >> Listers, >> These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an >> OBAM/Amateur Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the >> aircraft by whatever means: electronic transfer, cashiers check, >> certified check or cash, and that 5+ figure amount is put into >> your "whatever" account, anything over $10K requires the bank or >> other financial institution to report it to some federal >> government agency since there is concern about the cleanliness of >> the money. >> My questions are: >> 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? >> 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for >> and reporting the sale amount? >> A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and >> parts cost of building? >> B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? *OR* >> C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and >> the sale price called "ordinary income". >> Thanks for any experience or insight. >> Regards, >> Richard Dudley >> RV-6A >> > > -- Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4 Gotta Fly or Gonna Die ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:40 PM PST US From: Dana Overall Subject: RE: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale Guys, I'm not going to get into the regs associated with capital gains but the short answer is NO Heck I guess I will: sec. 183; Reg. 1.183-1-Reg. 1. 183-4 rev ruling 12,170, 12,171-12,176. TOTALLY different than building an airplane for personal use and not real property, engaged the the business of or income producing property. One time sale of a personal property airp lane WILL NOT generate capital gains. What you just referred to is like the ol saying, I heard, from my sister, w ho heard from a worker, who overheard over coffee........... I really shouldn't even be responding to this. Dana Overall...............................CPA.........Certified Pain in th e A%^ this time of year. Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:48:44 +0000 > From: acepilot@bloomer.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale > > > That's why I've heard of a lot of planes being sold for "$1 plus other > valuable consideration." Even I wouldn't mind paying tax on a buck ;) > (and the other valuable consideration might consist of a verbal "I won't > sue you if it falls apart"...) > > Scott > > > Charlie England wrote: > > > > > > RE: income tax implications: > > Aren't you legally obligated to pay either capital gains or income tax > > on the difference between cost & sale price if you sell for more than > > you paid. There's even a place on the tax return for 'hobby income'. > > > > Whether you choose to do the legal thing or the American thing is > > another question. ;-) > > > > Charlie > > > > Dana Overall wrote: > > > >> Richard, there is no reporting requirement by banks to the IRS unless > >> it is a cash transaction of 10K or over. Multiple cash transactions > >> in repetition that indicate an attempt to circumvent the 10K cash > >> transaction reporting requirements, will give rise to the bank > >> notifying the IRS. Unless you are in the business of selling > >> airplanes, there are no income tax implications attached to the sale > >> of personal property. No need to worry about cost, labor, whatever. > >> > >> Remember, you got what you paid for. I only license to practice in KY .. > >> > >> Dana Overall > >> Richmond, KY i39 > >> RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying > >> O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 > >> http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 > >> http://rvflying.tripod.com > >> do not archive > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > >> From: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RV-List: Bank Reports and IRS after Aircraft Sale > >> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:45:43 -0400 > >> > >> Listers, > >> These are questions for anyone who has built and sold an > >> OBAM/Amateur Built Aircraft. Once the buyer has paid you for the > >> aircraft by whatever means: electronic transfer, cashier=92s check , > >> certified check or cash, and that 5+ figure amount is put into > >> your "whatever" account, anything over $10K requires the bank or > >> other financial institution to report it to some federal > >> government agency since there is concern about the cleanliness of > >> the money. > >> My questions are: > >> 1. What sort of information will the seller be required to provide ? > >> 2. What are the IRS implications/requirements for accounting for > >> and reporting the sale amount? > >> A. Is there a requirement to account for the materials and > >> parts cost of building? > >> B. Are the labor hours of building of any consequence? *OR* > >> C. Is the difference between costs of materials and parts and > >> the sale price called "ordinary income". > >> Thanks for any experience or insight. > >> Regards, > >> Richard Dudley > >> RV-6A > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Scott > http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ > Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4 > Gotta Fly or Gonna Die > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. 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