Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - Re: RV Safety Record (marknlisa@hometel.com)
2. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: RV Safety Record (Ron Lee)
3. 07:14 AM - Sorry, couldn't resist (Wheeler North)
4. 10:58 AM - Re: RV Safety Record (Dave Nellis)
5. 11:07 AM - Re: RV Safey Record (glen matejcek)
6. 01:44 PM - Accident one fatal (bert murillo)
7. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: RV Safety Record (Scott)
8. 04:55 PM - Re: Sorry, couldn't resist (Dave Nellis)
9. 05:05 PM - Re: Accident one fatal (WILLIAM AGSTER)
10. 05:14 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (smoothweasel@juno.com)
11. 05:44 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Ron Lee)
12. 06:04 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Kevin Horton)
13. 08:00 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (smoothweasel@juno.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> wrote:
>What is it, specifically, that appalls you about the experimental
>accident rate?
Scott,
>From what position are you arguing? From the tone of your questions and comments
it seems you believe nothing should (or can) be done about the accident rates
in the experimental community.
Simply arguing experimental aircraft are riskier than certified aircraft (so we
should EXPECT more accidents?) is a red herring -- and one that leads down a
regulatory path we might wish to avoid. For I'll suggest if we, as a community,
don't take care of the situation, big brother will do it for us. Now that is
truly a scary thought...
Further, I'll suggest if inexperienced pilots are flying challenging, high-performance
experimental aircraft beyond their skill level, WE (the experimental aviation
community) are partly to blame. How many of us personally knows someone
in this situation? What have you done about it?
Personally, I find ANY (that would be even one -- singular) PREVENTABLE accident
APPALLING.
I believe what Ron is trying to say is we should, and yes, CAN do more to reduce
the number of PREVENTABLE experimental aviation accidents. And we should at
least attempt to implement a solution -- one we choose ourselves; one we can live
with -- before those-who-know-more-about-flying-than-we-do implements one
for us. What so you suppose the FAA-approved training program would look like
for an "experimental" private pilot certificate? Better yet, what do you say we
just get rid of experimental aviation all together? I mean those aircraft are
just too "risky" for ordinary people to be flying...
Whether any of us chooses to believe it or not, we have already started down that
path. In another post yesterday RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com> said,
"Fly (sic) is a privilege not a right." If what Rick says is true, flying is
not a right but a privilege, who grants the privilege? How long before it becomes
a "privilege" for which we must get permission to take a walk thru a National
Forest, or build a house on our own property, or own a handgun to protect
our loved ones and property? Oops, too late...
I wonder what Orville and Wilbur would have said about the "privilege" to fly?
Our Government is already far more involved in our personal lives than it should
be. The only way to prevent further incursions into our personal FREEDOM to
enjoy experimental, recreational aviation is to prove to the wider, non-flying
community we are professional enough to police ourselves.
I, for one, agree with Ron; we should, and can, do something about reducing the
number of PREVENTABLE accidents. As our representative organization, EAA is the
right place to start. If you think we should be doing more to police ourselves,
send EAA the message accident prevention should be its number one priority.
Regards,
Mark Sletten
Lancair Legacy FG
P.S. Now Ron, about those fiberglass airplanes... ;-)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
> P.S. Now Ron, about those fiberglass airplanes... ;-)
Nothing wrong with fiberglass airplanes...as long as they don't hit RVs.
This is not bashing fiberglass airplanes since they are perhaps the
highest performance (say cruise speed) aircraft around. That accident
in Florida I think was one of the worst GA accidents I have every seen.
I don't know if it was preventable. Most likely it was and it was a matter
of a chain of events that ultimately resulted in three deaths. Hopefully
the
NTSB analysis will provide clear information on why a go-around that may
have been attempted went so wrong.
We had two people die in an RV crash last year I think near Denver. I have
not seen a final report but getting too slow in the pattern is a possible
factor.
I have taken multiple AOPA on-line courses. The weather one is very
educational for people who might choose to use weather info to skirt
between building storm cells.
Folks who are not trained in mountain flying are well advised to get such
training or take the AOPA mountain flying course. We lost an RV somewhere
in southern NM or Texas not long ago. The reported winds in that area
of mountains was reported to be very high (60 knots?). I know enough
to avoid mountain flying in those conditions.
So I see a possible RV safety course as having two main components.
The first is education and that can be largely handled using the AOPA
online courses.
The second...and hardest... is trying to fix the "judgment" part of the
equation. It does not help for me to know that high winds in the mountains
can cause bad updrafts/downdrafts/turbulence then continue a trip in those
conditions just to get home. You have to be willing to say "this is
unacceptable"
and land (or not start a flight) even if it means you have to pay for a
hotel, lose
a day of work, etc.
This part would probably have to be in a group setting to exchange ideas.
Apparently Cirrus has a good safety program. Based on some of their
accidents,
I see the same sort of education/judgment problems that affect the entire GA
community. Perhaps things can be "borrowed" from them.
This is not rocket science. We don't have to have more fatalities from
flying
into bad weather to learn that it is a bad idea. We just have to reinforce
the
underlying knowledge part and improve on the judgment part to start
reducing accidents.
BTW, flying is a right and I have seen someone post something from a
FAA or similar document to taht effect.
Ron Lee
Message 3
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| Subject: | Sorry, couldn't resist |
Somebody define a "questionable non aviation items?"
Look it up, it's in the dictionary....
"Home Depot"
;{)
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
The Airbus accident was caused by the autoland mode of
the aircraft. It was being used to make an approach
and then the landing was to be aborted. The autoland
mode did not disengage the throttles when the pilot
moved the yoke to disengage autoland. Throttle
increase was minimal when the pilot firewalled the
throttles for the go around. The rest is history.
Dave nellis
--- Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> wrote:
> <acepilot@bloomer.net>
>
> Clarify. Are you saying RV pilots account for a
> major portion of pilot
> error accidents compared to pilots of all other
> experimental airplanes?
> I guess that COULD be true since I suspect that a
> majority of
> experimental aircraft are RVs. How many RVs are
> flying now? 5000?
> That's more than Cessna made of models 120, 140 and
> probably 170 as
> well. Also, if you go through NTSB crash reports of
> commercial
> aircraft, pilot error is often cited as cause or at
> least a contributing
> factor. Humans make mistakes. Period. Take the
> pilot out of the
> equation and put a "perfect" computer in his/her
> place. Oops, forget
> that. Airbus tried that. Remember the Paris Air
> Show when the computer
> landed the Airbus in the woods?
>
> I don't think RV pilots have the market cornered on
> doing things to get
> themselves into trouble. A lot of GA accidents deal
> with VFR flight
> into IFR conditions. Yes, poor decision making
> perhaps, but I feel
> slighted that you think RV pilots are the only ones
> dumb enough to do
> stuff like that...
>
> Maybe I'm taking it all out of context?
>
> Scott
>
>
> Ron Lee wrote:
>
> <ronlee@pcisys.net>
> >
> > I doubt that the RV safety record can ever be
> brought below the general
> >
> >> aviation average, as these are the "sports cars"
> of the general aviation
> >> fleet. Pilots fly them for fun and
> excitement...not just a safe means
> >> of transportation.
> >>
> >
> > Can't agree with you. When 75% or so of accidends
> are due to PILOT
> > ERROR,
> > that can be fixed. I have perhaps 1300 hours in
> my 6A and because it
> > is "sporty"
> > is not an excuse to do stupid things like fly into
> weather, over
> > mountains when the
> > winds are high, stall turning base or any of the
> other pilot error
> > induced accidents.
> >
> > We can and should make things better in the RV
> community.
> >
> > Ron Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Scott
> http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
> Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
> Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
>
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: RV Safey Record |
WARNING: YET ANOTHER AEROBUBBA SAFETY RANT FOLLOWS! SAVE YOURSELF! HIT
DELETE WHILE YOU STILL CAN!
;-)
Wow. I'll start with the easiest one:
>Take the pilot out of the
> equation and put a "perfect" computer in his/her place. Oops, forget
> that. Airbus tried that. Remember the Paris Air Show when the computer
> landed the Airbus in the woods?
Well, I remember the Airbus landing in the woods, but in that case all
seven redundant flight control computers, as well as the autothrottle
computers, were doing precisely what the pilot told them to do. He was
doing (trying to do?) something the plane was never intended to do, and the
situation got away from him and bit him in the butt. Also, there have been
multiple cases where third world operators have gotten into trouble with
'busses because they didn't know how to do what they were trying to do, and
the situation got out of hand. Proper training and understanding would
have prevented 100% of them.
>Also, if you go through NTSB crash reports of commercial
> aircraft, pilot error is often cited as cause or at least a contributing
> factor
True. The biggest improvement in air carrier safety occurred through the
late fifties and early sixties. This was due to the conversion to turbine
engines eliminating the reliability issues associated with recips. With
mechanical failures drastically reduced, pilot error became a greater
percentage of accident causation. This lead to a refocusing of accident
prevention to the pilots. Here in GA we still fly recips by and large, and
all the safety training that is now mandatory for 121 is strictly
voluntary, where available, in GA. A while back we had the fatal accident
in LEX. The next one prior, IIRC, was LIT. That's 2 fatals in 3 or 5
years. GA had 216 fatals in 2006. To say that a fatal error by air
carrier crews every couple years is adequate reason to not lift a finger to
help prevent 200+ of our friends from killing themselves each year is...
well, plug in your own adjective.
> Humans make mistakes.
Uh, Yeah...
>Period.
NO! To use a gross example, I knew a couple of guys that thought pretty
highly of their skillsets. They knew other mere mortals flew aerobatics,
and as dedicated macho-stud muffins they just knew they were acro pilots as
well. They just hadn't had the opportunity to demonstrate it. So, they
got in a plane, got it up to cruise, and cranked in full aileron expecting
to get a roll. Of course, what they got was a split S. After having
regained their composure, they decided to try it in a lesser performing
aircraft. Guess what? Same input, same results. And these guys were both
ATPs. Now, people roll planes beautifully every day. What's the
difference? Training. Every day our brothers and sisters are out there
doing things they've never done before without getting any training.
Usually they survive, and frequently they don't even break a sweat.
Sometimes they die. As individuals we don't know what we don't know.
Sometimes we learn the depth and breadth of our ignorance a bit too late.
> A lot of GA accidents deal with VFR flight
> into IFR conditions.
That used to be the leading cause. Now the loss leader is called
'maneuvering flight'. It is the leading killer in all of GA, and has an
especially large lead in killing homebuilders. People are getting in over
their heads, 'just flying around'. And you'd never guess the second most
fatal phase of flight for homebuilts - Take off and climb. Take off and
climb? How do you kill yourself taking off? By not being prepared for the
unexpected. The first 10 hours of a homebuilt's life are it's most
dangerous, and especially the very first flight. Statistically, this is
where you are most likely to get bitten.
Also, some other data points / risk factors about those most likely to be
killed: Private pilot, less than 500 TT, less than 100 time in type, SE
fixed gear, and engine/prop failure. Now, how many of those risk factors
apply to the average guy making the first flight in his RV?
> I don't think RV pilots have the market cornered on doing things to get
> themselves into trouble. Yes, poor decision making perhaps, but I feel
> slighted that you think RV pilots are the only ones dumb enough to do
> stuff like that...
I surely hope you aren't suggesting that because people die in glassairs,
kitfoxes, or whatever, it's okay to kill yourself in an RV. As to the
original poster addressing OUR safety record, well, WE are the audience on
this list. Hopefully there are folks making similar efforts to police the
ranks of the glassair and kitfox lists as well. The only downside to this
effort is that the poster is, de facto, preaching to the choir. The people
we need to be most concerned about don't participate in fora where they
might learn something.
Food for thought: Skydiving was unregulated until enough people exercised
enough bad judgement to bring sufficient attention to the activity in the
public eye to cause restrictive regulations to be enacted. Ditto
ultralights. Do we want to 'mind our own business' while others wreck it
for us, or do we want to lead by example?
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Accident one fatal |
Hi:
The accident in Polk City, Fla. was a Zenith
aircraft.
No details of cause..
Also a recent incident of an RV I believe was an
rv8...Emergency Landing, in Deland.. pilot no
injured, plane serious damage,, Landed on
ravine close to runway 05..this is what I was told
by a pilot, who was at the scene/
Talking about safety, on rv's would be nice
to have a report of the last three years or so..
Maybe the FAA shows that?
I am affraid, General Aviation Continues to be
at the bottom, when it comes to safety record....
I have some ideas, one is very poor training, and
not taken recurrent reviews etc... I know this to
be a fact, some of these guys, have the mind, that
no one is goint to tell me what to do.... I do what
I want etc....
The other things I feel is cause of such record, is
so increadible, for most people, I do not want to even
mention it...I would be a laghin stock the least...
I wish such experiment could be done....
If we approach our aircraft and our flying seriously
would be a good step forward...this comments that
people fly rv's like sport cars,, right there is
a big problem....an aiplane is not a car period...
I =do not fly my Rv just for fun....I really use
it to go from point A to point B...travelling
is the ultimate goal..just..punching holes in the sky
does this will improve your flying skills?/
Any how, lets prove that Rv pilots are alittle
better than the rest of general aviation....would not
be great, if for 2008 there will not be a single
accident??
See you at Sun and Fun
Robert
rv6a
do nbot archive
__________________________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
This is the only time I'll be replying. I've asked Ron Lee several
times what he finds appaling about experimental accidents as compared to
certified type accidents. He will only respond with "read the Nall
Report" and look through piles of NTSB records. I haven't had time to
read the report in depth, just glanced at it. It says the overall trend
for accidents is going down. Yes, maneuver related incidents are up.
But it looks like that would apply just as much to certified types.
I'm really getting tired of this thread. Yes, most accidents are
preventable. But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking
the rap alone. I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on
30 years now. Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say
I'm pretty careful. The majority of my time is in taildraggers without
electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a
starter. What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't
contributed to the dismal accident rate?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
and do not expect ANY more replies to this thread from me
marknlisa@hometel.com wrote:
>
>Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>> What is it, specifically, that appalls you about the experimental
>> accident rate?
>>
>>
>
>Scott,
>
>>From what position are you arguing? From the tone of your questions and comments
it seems you believe nothing should (or can) be done about the accident rates
in the experimental community.
>
>Simply arguing experimental aircraft are riskier than certified aircraft (so we
should EXPECT more accidents?) is a red herring -- and one that leads down a
regulatory path we might wish to avoid. For I'll suggest if we, as a community,
don't take care of the situation, big brother will do it for us. Now that is
truly a scary thought...
>
>Further, I'll suggest if inexperienced pilots are flying challenging, high-performance
experimental aircraft beyond their skill level, WE (the experimental
aviation community) are partly to blame. How many of us personally knows someone
in this situation? What have you done about it?
>
>Personally, I find ANY (that would be even one -- singular) PREVENTABLE accident
APPALLING.
>
>I believe what Ron is trying to say is we should, and yes, CAN do more to reduce
the number of PREVENTABLE experimental aviation accidents. And we should at
least attempt to implement a solution -- one we choose ourselves; one we can
live with -- before those-who-know-more-about-flying-than-we-do implements one
for us. What so you suppose the FAA-approved training program would look like
for an "experimental" private pilot certificate? Better yet, what do you say
we just get rid of experimental aviation all together? I mean those aircraft are
just too "risky" for ordinary people to be flying...
>
>Whether any of us chooses to believe it or not, we have already started down that
path. In another post yesterday RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com> said,
"Fly (sic) is a privilege not a right." If what Rick says is true, flying is
not a right but a privilege, who grants the privilege? How long before it becomes
a "privilege" for which we must get permission to take a walk thru a National
Forest, or build a house on our own property, or own a handgun to protect
our loved ones and property? Oops, too late...
>
>I wonder what Orville and Wilbur would have said about the "privilege" to fly?
>
>Our Government is already far more involved in our personal lives than it should
be. The only way to prevent further incursions into our personal FREEDOM to
enjoy experimental, recreational aviation is to prove to the wider, non-flying
community we are professional enough to police ourselves.
>
>I, for one, agree with Ron; we should, and can, do something about reducing the
number of PREVENTABLE accidents. As our representative organization, EAA is
the right place to start. If you think we should be doing more to police ourselves,
send EAA the message accident prevention should be its number one priority.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Mark Sletten
>Lancair Legacy FG
>
>
>P.S. Now Ron, about those fiberglass airplanes... ;-)
>
>
>
>
--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Sorry, couldn't resist |
Hey, I shop in the aviation aisle at Home Depot. Lots
of good stuff there. :P
Dave Nellis
--- Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu> wrote:
> <wnorth@sdccd.edu>
>
> Somebody define a "questionable non aviation items?"
>
> Look it up, it's in the dictionary....
>
> "Home Depot"
>
> ;{)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Accident one fatal |
http://www.rvproject.com/ntsb.html<http://www.rvproject.com/ntsb.html>
Bert, check out the above link from Dan Checkoway's website. It
contains accident info for RV's only and is updated daily.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: bert murillo<mailto:robertrv607@yahoo.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: RV-List: Accident one fatal
<robertrv607@yahoo.com<mailto:robertrv607@yahoo.com>>
Hi:
The accident in Polk City, Fla. was a Zenith
aircraft.
No details of cause..
Also a recent incident of an RV I believe was an
rv8...Emergency Landing, in Deland.. pilot no
injured, plane serious damage,, Landed on
ravine close to runway 05..this is what I was told
by a pilot, who was at the scene/
Talking about safety, on rv's would be nice
to have a report of the last three years or so..
Maybe the FAA shows that?
I am affraid, General Aviation Continues to be
at the bottom, when it comes to safety record....
I have some ideas, one is very poor training, and
not taken recurrent reviews etc... I know this to
be a fact, some of these guys, have the mind, that
no one is goint to tell me what to do.... I do what
I want etc....
The other things I feel is cause of such record, is
so increadible, for most people, I do not want to even
mention it...I would be a laghin stock the least...
I wish such experiment could be done....
If we approach our aircraft and our flying seriously
would be a good step forward...this comments that
people fly rv's like sport cars,, right there is
a big problem....an aiplane is not a car period...
I =do not fly my Rv just for fun....I really use
it to go from point A to point B...travelling
is the ultimate goal..just..punching holes in the sky
does this will improve your flying skills?/
Any how, lets prove that Rv pilots are alittle
better than the rest of general aviation....would not
be great, if for 2008 there will not be a single
accident??
See you at Sun and Fun
Robert
rv6a
do nbot archive
__________________________________________________
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
Just an Update....
We have the rv-7a cooling better and flying at Van's published speeds...
finally.
When i say better thats what i mean its still to be improved on but we c
an manage now.
We found that the air outlet was just to restricted.(training wheel brac
ket, assembly, mess, junk ect.) We intalled 2 "Louvers" under the lower
cowl and let more air out of the bottom of the cowl. Also made sure ther
e was no air bypassing the baffle via intake ramps.
Thanks for all the ideas.
Weasel RV-4 (no training wheel required)
_____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your
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kmkbrNxuYPwTjLMVfMbfRiv4h1/
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
I got about a 10 degree drop with the louvers and also with opening the
cowl a bit.
Last night I saw that Avery Tools sells the louvers.
Ron Lee
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
On 10 Apr 2008, at 00:09, smoothweasel@juno.com wrote:
> Just an Update....
>
> We have the rv-7a cooling better and flying at Van's published
> speeds...finally.
>
> When i say better thats what i mean its still to be improved on but
> we can manage now.
>
> We found that the air outlet was just to restricted.(training wheel
> bracket, assembly, mess, junk ect.) We intalled 2 "Louvers" under
> the lower cowl and let more air out of the bottom of the cowl. Also
> made sure there was no air bypassing the baffle via intake ramps.
>
Congratulations.
At the start, you were unhappy with both the high engine temperatures
and the low TAS. Now you have managed to improve both the cooling
and the speed. How much has the speed increased, and what changes
did you make that affected the speed?
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (FInal Assembly)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
Well its not my airplane but thats beside the point.....just makin it cl
ear that i dont have a "brake steering" RV.....We put the louvers in the
bottom of the cowl and installed a larger oil cooler.
As far as going faster there is a theory that if you block the cowl outl
et off to much you can produce a "bubble" of air at the cowl inlet. This
"bubble" equates to drag. So as you can see opening the outlet (via lou
vers) and removing the "bubble" makes the plane go faster.
Now keep in mind before yall go yellin at me this is just a theory!!!!
u no where i got it joe.
I personaly dont trade stock on that theory. I'm still not sure where t
he speed came from.
Weasel RV-4 408hr
Wanted: RV-8 and a HRII and a RV-10 and a CompAir 10 and a Zero Turn Law
n Mower
do not archive
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