Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:27 AM - Re: RV Safety Record (marknlisa@hometel.com)
2. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: RV Safety Record (Joshua Siler)
3. 09:27 AM - RV SAFETY RECORD ( AIRBUS) (Bruno)
4. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: RV Safety Record (Ron Lee)
5. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: RV Safety Record (John Morgensen)
6. 12:44 PM - Re: RV Safety Record (Greg Young)
7. 03:43 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (JFLEISC@aol.com)
8. 04:45 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (Kevin Horton)
9. 05:16 PM - Re: Used RV buying best practices? (panhandler1956)
10. 05:16 PM - Re: RV7A OVERHEATING (JFLEISC@aol.com)
11. 05:18 PM - Price Reduced: RV-10 Project For Sale (Eric Parlow)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> said:
> I'm really getting tired of this thread. Yes, most accidents are
> preventable. But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking
> the rap alone. I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on
> 30 years now. Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say
> I'm pretty careful. The majority of my time is in taildraggers without
> electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a
> starter. What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't
> contributed to the dismal accident rate?
Scott,
It is unfortunate you feel unable to engage in a meaningful discussion about this
topic -- I'm sorry if I've said something to offend you.
It appears from your quote above you are taking all these comments personally,
as if people are saying YOU are unsafe. I don't know you, so I can't comment on
your personal flying habits, airmanship or professionalism.
>From my perspective, the majority of comments are directed at the experimental
aviation community as a whole -- not you personally Scott. The suggestion to
read the Nall report and peruse the accident reports is simply a means to prove
what all of us already knows -- the accident rate in the experimental aviation
community is higher than that of the larger GA community.
Granted, some of us are much better at assessing and mitigating risk. If your flying
history matches your claims, you would appear to fall into that category.
My position can best be summed up by a question: What do you do with those 30
years of experience besides keep yourself safe?
I say we, as a segment of the flying community with a common interest, have a duty
to do what we can address an APPALLING situation -- the fact that we experience
PREVENTABLE accidents at a higher rate than the rest of the GA community.
I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who suffer an apparent lack
of skill and judgment, rather than assuming there will always be idiots among
us who kill themselves, let's assume we CAN, as individuals, make a difference
and DO something.
Scott, I'm not trying to "win" an argument with you. In fact, I'm deeply troubled
by the possibility something I've said may have made you want to retreat farther
from getting involved, especially since you seem to have so much to offer.
You've been doing something right for the past 30 years, how can we use what
you've learned to help those who so desperately need it? Please think about
what I've said and consider remaining engaged.
At the risk sounding like a broken record, I urge each of you who even remotely
believes in what I'm saying to contact EAA and make your voice heard. EAA is
our representative organization. It is large and organized. As such, it has the
resources to make an impact. If there is any chance of developing and implementing
a program that can improve our accident record it will start with EAA.
Regards,
Mark
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
Hi all. Kind of off-topic to this thread but certainly on topic for the
question of safety... I was surfing reddit.com today and randomly found a
link with a picture of an RV mid somersault with it's prop in the dirt. Does
anyone know the story behind this picture?
http://img.funtasticus.org/2008/apr/moment1948/moment047.jpg
Josh
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:23 AM, <marknlisa@hometel.com> wrote:
>
> Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> said:
>
> > I'm really getting tired of this thread. Yes, most accidents are
> > preventable. But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking
> > the rap alone. I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on
> > 30 years now. Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say
> > I'm pretty careful. The majority of my time is in taildraggers without
> > electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a
> > starter. What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't
> > contributed to the dismal accident rate?
>
> Scott,
>
> It is unfortunate you feel unable to engage in a meaningful discussion
> about this topic -- I'm sorry if I've said something to offend you.
>
> It appears from your quote above you are taking all these comments
> personally, as if people are saying YOU are unsafe. I don't know you, so I
> can't comment on your personal flying habits, airmanship or professionalism.
>
> >From my perspective, the majority of comments are directed at the
> experimental aviation community as a whole -- not you personally Scott. The
> suggestion to read the Nall report and peruse the accident reports is simply
> a means to prove what all of us already knows -- the accident rate in the
> experimental aviation community is higher than that of the larger GA
> community.
>
> Granted, some of us are much better at assessing and mitigating risk. If
> your flying history matches your claims, you would appear to fall into that
> category. My position can best be summed up by a question: What do you do
> with those 30 years of experience besides keep yourself safe?
>
> I say we, as a segment of the flying community with a common interest,
> have a duty to do what we can address an APPALLING situation -- the fact
> that we experience PREVENTABLE accidents at a higher rate than the rest of
> the GA community.
>
> I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who suffer an
> apparent lack of skill and judgment, rather than assuming there will always
> be idiots among us who kill themselves, let's assume we CAN, as individuals,
> make a difference and DO something.
>
> Scott, I'm not trying to "win" an argument with you. In fact, I'm deeply
> troubled by the possibility something I've said may have made you want to
> retreat farther from getting involved, especially since you seem to have so
> much to offer. You've been doing something right for the past 30 years, how
> can we use what you've learned to help those who so desperately need it?
> Please think about what I've said and consider remaining engaged.
>
> At the risk sounding like a broken record, I urge each of you who even
> remotely believes in what I'm saying to contact EAA and make your voice
> heard. EAA is our representative organization. It is large and organized. As
> such, it has the resources to make an impact. If there is any chance of
> developing and implementing a program that can improve our accident record
> it will start with EAA.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
--
Joshua Siler
503-819-8919
Message 3
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| Subject: | RV SAFETY RECORD ( AIRBUS) |
Oops, forget
> that. Airbus tried that. Remember the Paris Air
> Show when the computer
> landed the Airbus in the woods?
------------------------------------------------------
By the way the accident didn't happen at the Paris Airshow but in Mulhose.
The computers did not land the A/C in the woods, the pilots did.
That what happen when pilots want to be ''Hot Dogs'' ( Two Check Airmen on top
of that ).Pull the circuit breakers to disengage the computers, end up in Direct
Law ( no stall protection among others) and you have a perfectly serviceable
aircraft in the woods.
After 2000 hrs + on A-320, I learned that the Airbuses are fantastic aircrafts
if flown the way they are supposed to be, like any other a/c.
The pilots (Captain) was charged with manslaughter but the case is still in court
on appeal..
Bruno Dionne
RV-4 (Flying)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
I believe that was in England. I never heard what caused the flip.
Ron Lee
----- Original Message -----
From: Joshua Siler
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV Safety Record
Hi all. Kind of off-topic to this thread but certainly on topic for
the question of safety... I was surfing reddit.com today and randomly
found a link with a picture of an RV mid somersault with it's prop in
the dirt. Does anyone know the story behind this picture?
http://img.funtasticus.org/2008/apr/moment1948/moment047.jpg
Josh
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV Safety Record |
There is a whole sequence of shots for this event. It occurred at a
fly-in in the UK. I don't have a link handy, but the discussion centered
around the nose gear issue on the RV-A models.
john
Joshua Siler wrote:
> Hi all. Kind of off-topic to this thread but certainly on topic for
> the question of safety... I was surfing reddit.com <http://reddit.com>
> today and randomly found a link with a picture of an RV mid somersault
> with it's prop in the dirt. Does anyone know the story behind this
> picture?
>
> http://img.funtasticus.org/2008/apr/moment1948/moment047.jpg
>
> Josh
>
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:23 AM, <marknlisa@hometel.com
> <mailto:marknlisa@hometel.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:marknlisa@hometel.com>
>
> Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net <mailto:acepilot@bloomer.net>> said:
>
> > I'm really getting tired of this thread. Yes, most accidents are
> > preventable. But I just don't see where experimentals need to
> be taking
> > the rap alone. I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming
> up on
> > 30 years now. Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so
> I'd say
> > I'm pretty careful. The majority of my time is in taildraggers
> without
> > electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a
> > starter. What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't
> > contributed to the dismal accident rate?
>
> Scott,
>
> It is unfortunate you feel unable to engage in a meaningful
> discussion about this topic -- I'm sorry if I've said something to
> offend you.
>
> It appears from your quote above you are taking all these comments
> personally, as if people are saying YOU are unsafe. I don't know
> you, so I can't comment on your personal flying habits, airmanship
> or professionalism.
>
> >From my perspective, the majority of comments are directed at the
> experimental aviation community as a whole -- not you personally
> Scott. The suggestion to read the Nall report and peruse the
> accident reports is simply a means to prove what all of us already
> knows -- the accident rate in the experimental aviation community
> is higher than that of the larger GA community.
>
> Granted, some of us are much better at assessing and mitigating
> risk. If your flying history matches your claims, you would appear
> to fall into that category. My position can best be summed up by a
> question: What do you do with those 30 years of experience besides
> keep yourself safe?
>
> I say we, as a segment of the flying community with a common
> interest, have a duty to do what we can address an APPALLING
> situation -- the fact that we experience PREVENTABLE accidents at
> a higher rate than the rest of the GA community.
>
> I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who suffer an
> apparent lack of skill and judgment, rather than assuming there
> will always be idiots among us who kill themselves, let's assume
> we CAN, as individuals, make a difference and DO something.
>
> Scott, I'm not trying to "win" an argument with you. In fact, I'm
> deeply troubled by the possibility something I've said may have
> made you want to retreat farther from getting involved, especially
> since you seem to have so much to offer. You've been doing
> something right for the past 30 years, how can we use what you've
> learned to help those who so desperately need it? Please think
> about what I've said and consider remaining engaged.
>
> At the risk sounding like a broken record, I urge each of you who
> even remotely believes in what I'm saying to contact EAA and make
> your voice heard. EAA is our representative organization. It is
> large and organized. As such, it has the resources to make an
> impact. If there is any chance of developing and implementing a
> program that can improve our accident record it will start with EAA.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
> --
> Joshua Siler
> 503-819-8919
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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| Subject: | RV Safety Record |
As one who has contributed to the accident stats I have a unique, if
unwanted, perspective of some simple things we can all do. I got a lot of
help in double checking the plane and adding extra padding to the
glareshield. One person though told me afterward that he had noticed black
smoke during my earlier engine starts but didn't say anything. I wish he
had. In talking to Don at AFP it was not the cause but it might have caused
me to step back and run more tests. I also wish someone would have suggested
waiting until morning rather than launching on a 104 degree afternoon. I
thought I was pretty well prepared for my flight but there is always
something more and others' perspectives and observations are valuable. I
don't know if it would have changed the outcome but knowing there was a path
not taken is one of the few things that continues to bug me. Maybe just a
hint is all it takes for someone to rethink their actions and choose a
different path.
I used to be quiet like most. Not any more. I've called the tower when I
thought certain controllers were unsafe. I tell friends (and strangers) when
I see something wearing, when their engine just doesn't sound right or just
when something strikes me as off but I don't know why. I've even nagged them
when they didn't take action I thought they should. I'll weigh in with an
opinion on their judgment calls. So far no one's objected and most are
appreciative of another viewpoint regardless of what they decide to do. I
view my own judgment calls in a different light as well but I'm not immune
so I hope others will do the same for me. Think of what your reaction would
be after something happens. If you think you'd regret not having done or
said something then do it up front.
Regards,
Greg Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> marknlisa@hometel.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:23 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: RV Safety Record
>
>
> Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> said:
>
>
> I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who
> suffer an apparent lack of skill and judgment, rather than
> assuming there will always be idiots among us who kill
> themselves, let's assume we CAN, as individuals, make a
> difference and DO something.
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:07:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
Congratulations.
At the start, you were unhappy with both the high engine temperatures and
the low TAS. Now you have managed to improve both the cooling and the speed.
How much has the speed increased, and what changes did you make that affected
the speed?
10 years of operating air cooled engines on a dynamometer has taught me that
increases in cooling increases volumetric efficiency, thus more power
(astounding differences some times). Could be it.
Jim
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
On 10 Apr 2008, at 18:39, JFLEISC@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:07:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> khorton01@rogers.com writes:
> Congratulations.
>
> At the start, you were unhappy with both the high engine
> temperatures and the low TAS. Now you have managed to improve both
> the cooling and the speed. How much has the speed increased, and
> what changes did you make that affected the speed?
> 10 years of operating air cooled engines on a dynamometer has
> taught me that increases in cooling increases volumetric
> efficiency, thus more power (astounding differences some times).
> Could be it.
Interesting. Do you mean that you actually measured an increase in
the volume of air being inducted, or are you inferring the increase
in volumetric efficiency from a measured increase in power?
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (FInal Assembly)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Used RV buying best practices? |
Good idea Tedd.
I added a couple of points to the wiki:
vans service bulletins and sloshed fuel tanks
--------
Brent O.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176026#176026
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RV7A OVERHEATING |
In a message dated 4/10/2008 7:47:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
Congratulations.
At the start, you were unhappy with both the high engine temperatures and
the low TAS. Now you have managed to improve both the cooling and the speed.
How much has the speed increased, and what changes did you make that affected
the speed?
10 years of operating air cooled engines on a dynamometer has taught me that
increases in cooling increases volumetric efficiency, thus more power
(astounding differences some times). Could be it.
Interesting. Do you mean that you actually measured an increase in the
volume of air being inducted, or are you inferring the increase in volumetric
efficiency from a measured increase in power?
Absolute measured increase in power. Think about it; You can fit more air in
a cold box than a hot one of the same size. Bolye's law.
Jim
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Price Reduced: RV-10 Project For Sale |
RV-10 project for sale.REDUCED TO $99,900 FOR QUICK SALE!
See add in Barnstormers.com and Trade-A-PlaneIncludes all materials to comp
lete a flying plane except engine & prop. Full Garmin WAAS IFR instrument p
ackage. GNS430W, SL30, GTX327, GI-106A, PMA800SR, LifeSaver 4300 AI, CO Mon
itor, BMA EFISone w/ Autopilot and Powerboard. Rudder tim w/ position displ
ay for trims and flaps. ELO Touchscreen monitor w/ switch to display EFIS o
r computer to Co-pilot. All Van's kits including FWF. Accuracy Avionics ove
rhead console and window trim rings. All systems installed including dual b
attery Z-14 FADEC based electrical systems. CAD drawings of all system sche
matics. To finish it needs: engine, prop, interior, paint, ~1000 hours labo
r.
Engine $39,200 (Vans)Prop $6,510 (Vans)Interior $3,182 (Flightline)Paint ~$
8,000 (?) Total ~$56,892 to finish A flying full IFR RV-10 for $156,792!
A few photos attached. ERic--(828) 777-7976Williamsport, PA
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