Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:38 AM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (linn Walters)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: Award Winning Planes (Bob)
3. 07:05 AM - Re: Award Winning Planes (Ed Anderson)
4. 08:01 AM - Re: Award Winning Planes (Ollie Washburn)
5. 08:02 AM - Re: Vaporlock for Fuel Injected Engines (Bob)
6. 08:40 AM - Re: Hanger Interior Design Help (J Riffel)
7. 09:11 AM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (Bob J.)
8. 09:16 AM - Re: Award Winning Planes (Rick Galati)
9. 09:24 AM - Re: Award Winning Planes (Ron Lee)
10. 09:36 AM - Re: Award Winning Planes (John Cox)
11. 09:40 AM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (linn Walters)
12. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Award Winning Planes (Ron Lee)
13. 10:40 AM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (J. Mcculley)
14. 11:15 AM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (John Morgensen)
15. 11:21 AM - RV-8(A) Drawing Revisions (Garey Wittich)
16. 03:16 PM - Re: RV-8(A) Drawing Revisions (Scott)
17. 03:38 PM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (JFLEISC@aol.com)
18. 05:06 PM - Sun-n-Fun 08' been there done that :-) (Bobby Hester)
19. 06:17 PM - Re: vaporlock clairfication (Bob J.)
20. 07:55 PM - Aircraft Beacon - LED (Ernie & Margo)
21. 07:56 PM - Re: Vaporlock for Fuel Injected Engines (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
22. 08:14 PM - Re: Aircraft Beacon - LED (Charlie England)
23. 08:48 PM - Re: Re: RV Safety Record ()
24. 10:42 PM - Re: Vaporlock for Fuel Injected Engines (Kelly McMullen)
25. 10:43 PM - RV Safety record (Jerry Springer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
J. Mcculley wrote:
>
> Linn, which type of engine driven fuel pump do you have with the PS-5
> carb--gear type or diaphragm?
It's a diaphragm type, but higher pressure ..... 12-15 Lbs if I remember
right (happening less often).
FWIW, the typical 'vapor lock' occurs when the diaphragm pump tries to
suck a 'load', creating a lower pressure at the inlet of the pump which
causes the hot liquid fuel to vaporize. Once this vapor is in the pump,
it won't be expelled since the diaphragm just compresses the gas and
relaxes .... the gas won't open the reed valve because there is higher
pressure on the outlet. If you can pressurize the system with another
pump ..... electrical boost or backup fuel pump ..... then that pump
should be able to force fresh fuel through the system. Putting the aux
fuel pump inside the cabin at the lowest point provides natural head
pressure (due to gravity) so the electrical pump doesn't cavitate like
the engine driven one can. I don't have enough experience to understand
why injected engines have so much trouble when starting hot. I guess
I'm going to get a real education when the -10 is flying!!!
Good question though .... I forgot about my 'different' engine driven pump.
Linn
do not archive
>
>
> Jim
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> linn Walters wrote:
>
>> Charles Heathco wrote:
>>
>>> To clarify, re vaporlock, I have a standard carb. 320 150 hp. I had
>>> the carb OH, but first had the problem prior to. The lines are in
>>> fire sleve. Charles heathco
>>
>>
>> Charlie, I missed the original vaporlock post, but will comment
>> anyway so this may be a waste of bandwidth. I have heard of RVs with
>> vapor lock problems, and am not sure why it happens. I fly mogas in
>> my Pitts, and even in the summer in FL have never had a smidgen of a
>> problem .... even with fast turn around fuel stops. The big
>> difference in my installation ..... I have a PS-5 pressure
>> carbureator. And I don't have any firesleeved hoses in the cowl.
>> Don't flame me .... I just haven't gotten around to doing it, not
>> that I don't want to do it.
>>
>> I wish I could figure out the WHY of some mogas vaporlock, but since
>> I don't have the problem ..... I can't fix it. Maybe we can have
>> some really frank discussion about the problem here and get to the
>> bottom of it. Has anyone cured the problem in another way besides
>> mixing or going to 100LL 100% of the time???
>> Linn
>> do not archive
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Award Winning Planes |
>......plane was among the winners of the group's Outstanding
>Homebuilt Aircraft award.
A pilot who had just taken off from Lakeland Linder Airport (LAL) was
killed Sunday morning when his Lancair Legacy crashed less than one mile
west of the runway
This was the third EAA Award winning aircraft for workmanship that
has crashed right after winning the award that I know of. One would
think that an aircraft that wins an award for craftsmanship would not
crash due to mechanical difficulty, and that only leaves as the
cause of the crash!??
What's the deal? Are these airplanes judged on paint scheme alone,
or do the judges really look deep into the aircraft plumbing, wiring,
control systems, engine setup etc.?
Just my opinion, but an EAA award winning aircraft should not crash
on the way home after winning an award for craftsmanship. Winning
the award may be the kiss of death?
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Award Winning Planes |
Bob, I have seen an e mail report indicated that the canopy on the Lancair
may have come open on take off, there were reports of people seeing maps,
etc flying from the cockpit - so could possibly have been a fatal pilot
distraction during a critical flight phase and not due to
mechanical/electrical problem.
Having taken off a bit earlier that Sunday from Sun & Fun, I can tell you
low clouds and scud would not have made it easier - don't know if the
Lancair gotten that much altitude for it to be a factor.
Having had my canopy come open (tilt-up) during take off twice - once did
not ensure the primary lock was engaged and second time a linkage came
undone- I can tell you that the sudden rush of wind and noise can be very
distracting. My procedure is straight ahead until reaching 3000 AGL before
I even think about messing with closing it (but, that Sunday, 3000 AGL would
have put me in the soup) - good advice I learned from others who had been
there before I was.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob" <panamared5@brier.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Award Winning Planes
>
>
>>......plane was among the winners of the group's Outstanding Homebuilt
>>Aircraft award.
>
>
> A pilot who had just taken off from Lakeland Linder Airport (LAL) was
> killed Sunday morning when his Lancair Legacy crashed less than one mile
> west of the runway
>
> This was the third EAA Award winning aircraft for workmanship that has
> crashed right after winning the award that I know of. One would think
> that an aircraft that wins an award for craftsmanship would not crash due
> to mechanical difficulty, and that only leaves as the cause of the
> crash!??
>
> What's the deal? Are these airplanes judged on paint scheme alone, or do
> the judges really look deep into the aircraft plumbing, wiring, control
> systems, engine setup etc.?
>
> Just my opinion, but an EAA award winning aircraft should not crash on the
> way home after winning an award for craftsmanship. Winning the award may
> be the kiss of death?
>
> Bob
> RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Award Winning Planes |
Did you ever consider the fact the pilot might have had a heart attack?
Ollie
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
wrote:
>
> Bob, I have seen an e mail report indicated that the canopy on the Lancair
> may have come open on take off, there were reports of people seeing maps,
> etc flying from the cockpit - so could possibly have been a fatal pilot
> distraction during a critical flight phase and not due to
> mechanical/electrical problem.
>
> Having taken off a bit earlier that Sunday from Sun & Fun, I can tell you
> low clouds and scud would not have made it easier - don't know if the
> Lancair gotten that much altitude for it to be a factor.
>
> Having had my canopy come open (tilt-up) during take off twice - once did
> not ensure the primary lock was engaged and second time a linkage came
> undone- I can tell you that the sudden rush of wind and noise can be very
> distracting. My procedure is straight ahead until reaching 3000 AGL before
> I even think about messing with closing it (but, that Sunday, 3000 AGL would
> have put me in the soup) - good advice I learned from others who had been
> there before I was.
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob" <panamared5@brier.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 10:37 AM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Award Winning Planes
>
>
> >
> >
> > ......plane was among the winners of the group's Outstanding Homebuilt
> > > Aircraft award.
> > >
> >
> >
> > A pilot who had just taken off from Lakeland Linder Airport (LAL) was
> > killed Sunday morning when his Lancair Legacy crashed less than one mile
> > west of the runway
> >
> > This was the third EAA Award winning aircraft for workmanship that has
> > crashed right after winning the award that I know of. One would think that
> > an aircraft that wins an award for craftsmanship would not crash due to
> > mechanical difficulty, and that only leaves as the cause of the
> > crash!??
> >
> > What's the deal? Are these airplanes judged on paint scheme alone, or
> > do the judges really look deep into the aircraft plumbing, wiring, control
> > systems, engine setup etc.?
> >
> > Just my opinion, but an EAA award winning aircraft should not crash on
> > the way home after winning an award for craftsmanship. Winning the award
> > may be the kiss of death?
> >
> > Bob
> > RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock for Fuel Injected Engines |
> I don't have enough experience to understand why injected engines
> have so much trouble when starting hot.
In my IO-360 there are stainless steel fuel lines running from the
fuel distribution spider on top of the engine to each cylinder. When
the aircraft is on the ground the residual engine heat is absorbed by
the fuel in the stainless steel lines and will vaporize.
There are varied and numerous solutions to this problem some that may
work for you:
1. Install a Purge Valve
2. Use hot starting procedures as outlined in the Lycoming engine manual
3. Reduce injector nozzle size to increase the fuel pressure in the lines
4. Keep the high pressure boost pump on during while engine is
running and you are still on the ground
5. Take the top cowl off and let everything cool off
6. Park aircraft into the wind, open oil dipstick door
7. Install cooling louvers on the top cowl that only open when the
aircraft is not moving
8. Probably some others solutions as well
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Hanger Interior Design Help |
Mike,
I built a shop inside the hangar so I could build all year long. It's
12'x25' and 8' ceilings. I used 2x12s for ceiling so I could have storage
above. Metal racks for parts on 2nd floor with wide steps for carrying
parts. The shop walls Do Not connect to the hangar walls (they're free
standing). If you connect the shop walls to the hangar walls, then it'll
"creek" when the wind blows. It's got a 'window' type heater aircondtioner
(essential here in Texas) in the wall at one end. Cheap ceiling fan in
middle to save $ on ac. The bottom 1/2 is drywall, the top is all pegboard
(easy to hang tools,etc.) The quickstart florencents (for cold
weather) are about 2' from the wall so I don't get shaddows on the benches.
(don't put them down the middle). Put whiteboard at one end so I could keep
notes to myself (I'm old). Airsupply in the middle w/ enough airhose to
reach the ends of the shop. Bench next to airsupply has holder for rivet
gun/drill/squeezer, etc. Quad outlets about ever 6' (never have enough
outlets). Put plastic parts bins for nuts/bolts/etc. on wall. Computer desk
so with my parts inventory.
Mistakes:
1. Even tho I've got double doors in the shop to get the fuse/wings in/out,
I forgot to calculate the width of the gear. So I had start working in main
hangar now that she's up on the gear.
2. Had to add a window toward runway - so I could watch planes.
3. Should have put main hangar light switch next to shop door for when I
leave in the dark.
Hope that helps.
"Jerry"
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
PS-5C's normally have a vapor return line... I've got one in my Rocket but
its not flying yet.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 8:37 AM, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
> J. Mcculley wrote:
>
> >
> > Linn, which type of engine driven fuel pump do you have with the PS-5
> > carb--gear type or diaphragm?
> >
>
> It's a diaphragm type, but higher pressure ..... 12-15 Lbs if I remember
> right (happening less often).
> FWIW, the typical 'vapor lock' occurs when the diaphragm pump tries to
> suck a 'load', creating a lower pressure at the inlet of the pump which
> causes the hot liquid fuel to vaporize. Once this vapor is in the pump, it
> won't be expelled since the diaphragm just compresses the gas and relaxes
> .... the gas won't open the reed valve because there is higher pressure on
> the outlet. If you can pressurize the system with another pump .....
> electrical boost or backup fuel pump ..... then that pump should be able to
> force fresh fuel through the system. Putting the aux fuel pump inside the
> cabin at the lowest point provides natural head pressure (due to gravity) so
> the electrical pump doesn't cavitate like the engine driven one can. I
> don't have enough experience to understand why injected engines have so much
> trouble when starting hot. I guess I'm going to get a real education when
> the -10 is flying!!!
> Good question though .... I forgot about my 'different' engine driven
> pump.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>
> >
> > Jim
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > linn Walters wrote:
> >
> > Charles Heathco wrote:
> > >
> > > To clarify, re vaporlock, I have a standard carb. 320 150 hp. I had
> > > > the carb OH, but first had the problem prior to. The lines are in fire
> > > > sleve. Charles heathco
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Charlie, I missed the original vaporlock post, but will comment anyway
> > > so this may be a waste of bandwidth. I have heard of RVs with vapor lock
> > > problems, and am not sure why it happens. I fly mogas in my Pitts, and even
> > > in the summer in FL have never had a smidgen of a problem .... even with
> > > fast turn around fuel stops. The big difference in my installation .....
I
> > > have a PS-5 pressure carbureator. And I don't have any firesleeved hoses
in
> > > the cowl. Don't flame me .... I just haven't gotten around to doing it,
not
> > > that I don't want to do it.
> > >
> > > I wish I could figure out the WHY of some mogas vaporlock, but since I
> > > don't have the problem ..... I can't fix it. Maybe we can have some really
> > > frank discussion about the problem here and get to the bottom of it. Has
> > > anyone cured the problem in another way besides mixing or going to 100LL
> > > 100% of the time???
> > > Linn
> > > do not archive
> > >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Award Winning Planes |
The crash of the latest award winning aircraft may or may not have been due to
mechanical difficulties. It is always premature to yield to the natural human
urge to engage in idle, free wheeling speculation so soon after a tragic crash.
That said, the photo link clearly shows the condition of the Lancair's tip-up
canopy moments before it went down. It is not speculation, however, to
note that there are anecdotal first person reports that describe a violent downward
pitching moment that will occur if the empennage on the Lancair Legacy is
blanked out by an unsecured tip-up canopy. I'll defer to the specialists at
the NTSB to determine as best it can why the canopy was ajar while the Lancair
was in flight.
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536888751&filename=phpxexrtQ.jpg
Rick Galati
RV-6A "Darla!"
RV-8 RE
A pilot who had just taken off from Lakeland Linder Airport (LAL) was
killed Sunday morning when his Lancair Legacy crashed less than one mile
west of the runway
This was the third EAA Award winning aircraft for workmanship that
has crashed right after winning the award that I know of. One would
think that an aircraft that wins an award for craftsmanship would not
crash due to mechanical difficulty, and that only leaves as the
cause of the crash!??
What's the deal? Are these airplanes judged on paint scheme alone,
or do the judges really look deep into the aircraft plumbing, wiring,
control systems, engine setup etc.?
Just my opinion, but an EAA award winning aircraft should not crash
on the way home after winning an award for craftsmanship. Winning
the award may be the kiss of death?
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Award Winning Planes |
A heart attack is a possibility. An autopsy may determine that. But
the
reality is that pilot actions have a higher probability of being the
cause.
Frankly, mechanical issues have a higher probability than heart attack
in my opinion.
Ron Lee
Did you ever consider the fact the pilot might have had a heart
attack?
Ollie
Message 10
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| Subject: | Award Winning Planes |
Your question merits comprehensive and deep explanation from EAA HQ.
Each year I read all the requirements for grading and then watch the
judges do their dance. How one becomes a judge, what criteria they use,
how they score and how this pattern could become established beckons for
a prompt and thorough answer. Thanks for asking what I was wondering.
I will listen and read with interest.
Pilot motivations, skills, currency and competancy need not be addressed
by the EAA judging competition.
John C.
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bob
Sent: Fri 4/18/2008 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Award Winning Planes
>......plane was among the winners of the group's Outstanding
>Homebuilt Aircraft award.
A pilot who had just taken off from Lakeland Linder Airport (LAL) was
killed Sunday morning when his Lancair Legacy crashed less than one mile
west of the runway
This was the third EAA Award winning aircraft for workmanship that
has crashed right after winning the award that I know of. One would
think that an aircraft that wins an award for craftsmanship would not
crash due to mechanical difficulty, and that only leaves as the
cause of the crash!??
What's the deal? Are these airplanes judged on paint scheme alone,
or do the judges really look deep into the aircraft plumbing, wiring,
control systems, engine setup etc.?
Just my opinion, but an EAA award winning aircraft should not crash
on the way home after winning an award for craftsmanship. Winning
the award may be the kiss of death?
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
Bob J. wrote:
> PS-5C's normally have a vapor return line...
It's not really a vapor return line. It's to return excess fuel to the
tank. The pressure carb is controlled by pressure differentials across
various diaphragms, and the inlet bypass controls the actual fuel
pressure to the carb. I suppose that it would vent vapor when
pressurized though ..... never had the problem.
Linn
> I've got one in my Rocket but its not flying yet.
Once you get it adjusted correctly ...... it's tedious and you really
need the manual ...... it's a good solid carb. Another advantage is
that the butterfly is upstream of the atomized fuel so you don't have
anything to collect carb ice on.
Linn
do not archive
>
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 8:37 AM, linn Walters
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>>
>
>
> J. Mcculley wrote:
>
> <mcculleyja@starpower.net <mailto:mcculleyja@starpower.net>>
>
> Linn, which type of engine driven fuel pump do you have with
> the PS-5 carb--gear type or diaphragm?
>
>
> It's a diaphragm type, but higher pressure ..... 12-15 Lbs if I
> remember right (happening less often).
> FWIW, the typical 'vapor lock' occurs when the diaphragm pump
> tries to suck a 'load', creating a lower pressure at the inlet of
> the pump which causes the hot liquid fuel to vaporize. Once this
> vapor is in the pump, it won't be expelled since the diaphragm
> just compresses the gas and relaxes .... the gas won't open the
> reed valve because there is higher pressure on the outlet. If you
> can pressurize the system with another pump ..... electrical boost
> or backup fuel pump ..... then that pump should be able to force
> fresh fuel through the system. Putting the aux fuel pump inside
> the cabin at the lowest point provides natural head pressure (due
> to gravity) so the electrical pump doesn't cavitate like the
> engine driven one can. I don't have enough experience to
> understand why injected engines have so much trouble when starting
> hot. I guess I'm going to get a real education when the -10 is
> flying!!!
> Good question though .... I forgot about my 'different' engine
> driven pump.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>
> Jim
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> linn Walters wrote:
>
> Charles Heathco wrote:
>
> To clarify, re vaporlock, I have a standard carb. 320
> 150 hp. I had the carb OH, but first had the problem
> prior to. The lines are in fire sleve. Charles heathco
>
>
> Charlie, I missed the original vaporlock post, but will
> comment anyway so this may be a waste of bandwidth. I
> have heard of RVs with vapor lock problems, and am not
> sure why it happens. I fly mogas in my Pitts, and even in
> the summer in FL have never had a smidgen of a problem
> .... even with fast turn around fuel stops. The big
> difference in my installation ..... I have a PS-5 pressure
> carbureator. And I don't have any firesleeved hoses in
> the cowl. Don't flame me .... I just haven't gotten
> around to doing it, not that I don't want to do it.
>
> I wish I could figure out the WHY of some mogas vaporlock,
> but since I don't have the problem ..... I can't fix it.
> Maybe we can have some really frank discussion about the
> problem here and get to the bottom of it. Has anyone cured
> the problem in another way besides mixing or going to
> 100LL 100% of the time???
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Award Winning Planes |
Actually Rick, why the canopy was unlatched may be a minor issue.
Other than some sort
of problem that causes the latch to disengage, it is not a worry item in
my opinion.
What really matters is what happened afterwards. Did the pilot attempt
to close it
in flight and during that attempt do something that caused the crash?
Did the open
canopy cause the crash (unlikely from some of what I have read)? Was
there another
mechanical problem that caused it?
It will be interesting to see what becomes of this investigation.
Ron Lee
I'll defer to the specialists at the NTSB to determine as best it can
why the canopy was ajar while the Lancair was in flight.
Rick Galati
RV-6A "Darla!"
RV-8 RE
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
Yes, the PS-5C has a fuel return line to the fuel tank that flows a
controlled amount of fuel at all times--not just vapor.
The reason I inquired is I have the Lear-Romec gear-type fuel pump that
is mounted directly to the accessory case with only a typical thin
gasket. The degree of heat transfer from the accessory case to the pump
without some form of barrier gasket can cause excessive heating of the
fuel passing through the pump, particularly at low flow rates (near-idle
power) after landing.
Operating the upstream electric boost pump (set at a higher pressure)
delays the vapor formation, but is not the total fix if long duration
ground operation is involved. Additionally, there is the continuing heat
transfer into the fuel after shutdown, causing a hot-start problem for
upwards of 30 minutes later. Operating the boost pump before start
similar to the procedure in an injected installation is somewhat helpful
but the rate of return fuel flow is not enough to be very helpful in
purging and cooling throughout the lines and PS-5C.
My solution was to incorporate a cockpit controlled valve downstream of
the engine fuel pump to allow additional purging and cooling fuel flow
through the pump and lines back to the fuel tank, using the electric
boost pump. This has solved the problem for over 500 hours of operation,
but I'm glad to now know that the diaphragm type engine pump apparently
is not subject to the amount of heat absorption as is the gear type.
There are apparently very few Bendix pressure carbs and Lear-Romec pump
combinations installed in Experimentals.
Jim
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob J. wrote:
> PS-5C's normally have a vapor return line... I've got one in my Rocket
> but its not flying yet.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 8:37 AM, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net
> <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>>
>
>
> J. Mcculley wrote:
>
> <mcculleyja@starpower.net <mailto:mcculleyja@starpower.net>>
>
> Linn, which type of engine driven fuel pump do you have with the
> PS-5 carb--gear type or diaphragm?
>
>
> It's a diaphragm type, but higher pressure ..... 12-15 Lbs if I
> remember right (happening less often).
> FWIW, the typical 'vapor lock' occurs when the diaphragm pump tries
> to suck a 'load', creating a lower pressure at the inlet of the pump
> which causes the hot liquid fuel to vaporize. Once this vapor is in
> the pump, it won't be expelled since the diaphragm just compresses
> the gas and relaxes .... the gas won't open the reed valve because
> there is higher pressure on the outlet. If you can pressurize the
> system with another pump ..... electrical boost or backup fuel pump
> ..... then that pump should be able to force fresh fuel through the
> system. Putting the aux fuel pump inside the cabin at the lowest
> point provides natural head pressure (due to gravity) so the
> electrical pump doesn't cavitate like the engine driven one can. I
> don't have enough experience to understand why injected engines have
> so much trouble when starting hot. I guess I'm going to get a real
> education when the -10 is flying!!!
> Good question though .... I forgot about my 'different' engine
> driven pump.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Jim
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> linn Walters wrote:
>
> Charles Heathco wrote:
>
> To clarify, re vaporlock, I have a standard carb. 320
> 150 hp. I had the carb OH, but first had the problem
> prior to. The lines are in fire sleve. Charles heathco
>
>
>
> Charlie, I missed the original vaporlock post, but will
> comment anyway so this may be a waste of bandwidth. I have
> heard of RVs with vapor lock problems, and am not sure why
> it happens. I fly mogas in my Pitts, and even in the summer
> in FL have never had a smidgen of a problem .... even with
> fast turn around fuel stops. The big difference in my
> installation ..... I have a PS-5 pressure carbureator. And
> I don't have any firesleeved hoses in the cowl. Don't flame
> me .... I just haven't gotten around to doing it, not that I
> don't want to do it.
>
> I wish I could figure out the WHY of some mogas vaporlock,
> but since I don't have the problem ..... I can't fix it.
> Maybe we can have some really frank discussion about the
> problem here and get to the bottom of it. Has anyone cured
> the problem in another way besides mixing or going to 100LL
> 100% of the time???
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
Another data point:
STC'd Regular Unleaded Grumman AA1B with O-320 E2D. Auto gas from local
high volume Indian reservation with no ethanol. No vapor lock in ~150
hours using mogas about 2/3 of the time.
John Morgensen
RV9A - fuselage
linn Walters wrote:
> Charles Heathco wrote:
>> To clarify, re vaporlock, I have a standard carb. 320 150 hp. I had
>> the carb OH, but first had the problem prior to. The lines are in
>> fire sleve. Charles heathco
> Charlie, I missed the original vaporlock post, but will comment anyway
> so this may be a waste of bandwidth. I have heard of RVs with vapor
> lock problems, and am not sure why it happens. I fly mogas in my
> Pitts, and even in the summer in FL have never had a smidgen of a
> problem .... even with fast turn around fuel stops. The big
> difference in my installation ..... I have a PS-5 pressure
> carbureator. And I don't have any firesleeved hoses in the cowl.
> Don't flame me .... I just haven't gotten around to doing it, not that
> I don't want to do it.
>
> I wish I could figure out the WHY of some mogas vaporlock, but since I
> don't have the problem ..... I can't fix it. Maybe we can have some
> really frank discussion about the problem here and get to the bottom
> of it. Has anyone cured the problem in another way besides mixing or
> going to 100LL 100% of the time???
> Linn
> do not archive
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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| Subject: | RV-8(A) Drawing Revisions |
Greetings:
I called Vans (Bruce) and they could not help. They
do not have my old Drawings (CIRCA 1999) anymore that
came with the RV8 Emphennage Kit. I am looking for
the LATEST REVISIONS to Drawings 4PP and 5PP (not Dwg
4 and 5).
My Dwg 4PP (Elevator) is Rev 1
My Dwg 5PP (Elevator Trim Tab, etc) has no revision
Does anybody out there have LATER REVISIONS than mine
for Dwg 4PP and 5PP ??
Best to work with the latest drawings.
Appreciate your help, Garey Wittich Santa Monica,
CA
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RV-8(A) Drawing Revisions |
WHAT?!?! They don't have the drawings for a -8? I got a replacement
drawing for the RV-4 wing kit I bought at Oshkosh last year and the kit
was nearly 20 years old! They charged me $3 for the drawing. I emailed
the office staff from the website and she told me mine was available, so
I can hardly imagine them NOT having drawings for the 8s as they are
MUCH newer than the 4s.
Scott
World's OLDEST RV-4 kits ;)
Garey Wittich wrote:
>
>Greetings:
>
>I called Vans (Bruce) and they could not help. They
>do not have my old Drawings (CIRCA 1999) anymore that
>came with the RV8 Emphennage Kit. I am looking for
>the LATEST REVISIONS to Drawings 4PP and 5PP (not Dwg
>4 and 5).
>
>My Dwg 4PP (Elevator) is Rev 1
>My Dwg 5PP (Elevator Trim Tab, etc) has no revision
>
>Does anybody out there have LATER REVISIONS than mine
>for Dwg 4PP and 5PP ??
>
>Best to work with the latest drawings.
>
>Appreciate your help, Garey Wittich Santa Monica,
>CA
>
>
>Be a better friend, newshound, and
>know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
>
>
--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
In a message dated 4/18/2008 12:14:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rocketbob@gmail.com writes:
PS-5C's normally have a vapor return line... I've got one in my Rocket but
its not flying yet.
I like that idea but how do you plumb back to the (selected) tank?
Jim
do not archive
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Sun-n-Fun 08' been there done that :-) |
My internet service at home is down for a couple more week upgrades, so
I'm setting in the parking lot at a car wash doing the wireless thing.
I flew to Sun-n-Fun and have finally got some of the pictures and story
on my web site. I still need to add more, but it should be some good
reading. Click the pictures to see them bigger. The side trip to Cedar
Key was the highlight of the whole trip! If you go down there and do not
check out Cedar Key your missing a lot.
--
----
Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my flying RV7A web page:
http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhester/MyFlyingRV7A.htm
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: vaporlock clairfication |
I've got one in my Rocket but its not flying yet.
Once you get it adjusted correctly ...... it's tedious and you really need
> the manual ...... it's a good solid carb. Another advantage is that the
> butterfly is upstream of the atomized fuel so you don't have anything to
> collect carb ice on.
> Linn
>
Mine came off of a friend's 200hp RV-8, the builder took it off after a few
hours simply because he didn't want to install a return fuel flow
transducer. It has the red diaphragms and looks like new, and I paid $150.
I have a few Bonanza friends who say they are very trouble-free. I'll have
to get it recalibrated for the 540 but for the price I can't see how I can
go wrong with it.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Aircraft Beacon - LED |
I am planning to install a LED red beacon on the tail of my RV-9A, so
that I will be Night VFR legal.
The archives have nothing on this subject. Perhaps someone has related
experience..
Kuntzlem Electronics sells a small LED beacon that is 1.7 inches in
diameter, 3.5 inches tall and weighs 8.4 oz. It seems that it will be
small enough to look decent on the skinny RV tail. They claim that it
meets FAA requirements. They sell a mounting kit for the fuselage which
probably could be made to work on the tailcone., with a fair amount of
work to flair it nicely.
Has anybody have experience with this or a similar product.? It is
described at www.kestrobes.com.
Thanks for any help.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock for Fuel Injected Engines |
Park aircraft into the wind, open oil dipstick door
>>>
OK- my meager understanding of physics just screams at me to challenge this
one, even though it's been pounded into our collective conscience ever since
the invention of the cowling. Twenty+ Kt wind? Maybe. But I am unconvinced that
the airflow from above/below a just-shut-down engine would have any other
natural tendancy but to RISE through the engine via normal convective action.
Assuming no "wind", air would be greatly encouraged to enter the outlet and exit
the inlets. Buttdraggers would have a rare advantage here. (save the venom,
I gotcha on this one!)
I therefore theorize that positioning most conventionally-cooled flying
machines (most RVs, for example) with their fannies pointed INTO the wind would
benefit from some additonal airflow. Conveniently owning one of these devices,
I
happened to be pondering this situation as I dismounted her one day after
some particularly hot activity. First I pointed her into a prevailing wind of
approximately 10Kt velocity and unscientifically measured airflow by holding my
hand just behind the cowl outlet. Not much going on here. I then danced a
one-eighty with her and again unscientifically held my temp probe (upper 5-digit
extremity) in proximity to her nostrils. Whole lotta hot stuff coming out
here. Pretty much convinced me.
I further postulate that opening mentioned oil door would short-circuit
cooling air through the engine itself, actually reducing airflow to the
engine/spider etc., but most likely helping cool fuel lines & pumps between firewall
and
baffling.
Ye flying greybeards and physics profs, please explain the errors of my
thinking & experimentation...
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips, RV-6A "Mojo"
_http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_
(http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/)
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Beacon - LED |
Ernie & Margo wrote:
> I am planning to install a LED red beacon on the tail of my RV-9A, so
> that I will be Night VFR legal.
> The archives have nothing on this subject. Perhaps someone has
> related experience..
>
> Kuntzlem Electronics sells a small LED beacon that is 1.7 inches in
> diameter, 3.5 inches tall and weighs 8.4 oz. It seems that it will be
> small enough to look decent on the skinny RV tail. They claim that it
> meets FAA requirements. They sell a mounting kit for the fuselage
> which probably could be made to work on the tailcone., with a fair
> amount of work to flair it nicely.
>
> Has anybody have experience with this or a similar product.? It is
> described at www.kestrobes.com <http://www.kestrobes.com>.
>
> Thanks for any help.
Biggest downside is that it's round (draggy).
Charlie
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Re: RV Safety Record |
I spent hours and hours searching the NTSB files. Mostly to see what makes a Lycs
stop running verses alternative engines stop running. That is a diff topic,
but to the point, are home built planes (experimental) safe?
AOPA does put out an analysis of the years accidents. THE TRUTH! Forget opinion
and feelings as a group all experimentals aircraft have a slightly worse record
(normalized for fleet size) than the general fleet. Not bad just not quite
as good as the general fleet.
Why? Well you really need to spend hours looking at every experimental accident
and read them. Like my quest for engine failure info, I learned you have to
read them. It's almost impossible to boil it down to just a number with out some
understanding.
I agree many accidents are preventable. In fact if you maintain your plane, don't
run out of gas, stay current and don't fly into bad weather, your chance
of accident (at least the ones that make up many in the statistics) goes down.
I don't plan on doing any of the things that cause most accidents.
However the HOT sporty homebuilt does have a tendency or lend it self to higher
risk flying, acro, high speed buzz jobs and formation flying. Yes ACRO and
formation flying his less tolerance to mistakes and errors. They can be done safely,
but these Ops have higher risk. If you don't think about the risk, try
to mitigate the risk for these kinds of operations you should not do them or you
will be a statistics.This applies to every day flying as well.
There is nothing inherently dangerous about homebuilts but some homebuilts, like
Lancair IV's with higher wing loading and stall speeds of a WWII fighter take
more disciplined, flying by the numbers. Also an engine failure is more likely
going to hurt due to the higher stall speed and the kind of material the
airframe is made from. RV's are fairly safe due to the low stall speed and metal
structure that absorbs energy. However the RV is not an over built "Bush" airframe
with a steel truss tube frame either. Having a buble canopy, flips can
cause egress issues.
RV takes displine and its not a low speed trainer with IRON WORKS landing gear
for ham handed flying. If flown properly its as safe (safer in my opinion) than
any GA plane. Of course the engine and airframe need to be maintained properly.
Bottom line of course home built planes are safe, but the real factor is inbetween
our ears.
---------------------------------
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock for Fuel Injected Engines |
After flying a 200hp Mooney(IO360-A1A) with a Skytec starter for 10
years(~600 hours), whatever problems existed with the old Prestolite
starters are virtually eliminated. The Skytec cranks engine plenty fast
enough. The Mooney uses retard breaker mag with shower of sparks vibrator.
I just advance the throttle an 1/8th inch beyond where it was at
shutdown(1000rpm), and leave the mixture at idle cutoff.
Crank, and if it hasn't started firing after 6 blades, slowly advance
the mixture until it does fire.
Has worked very consistently for me, whether a 5 min shutdown or 2 hour
shut down, or anything in-between. Very rare to need to make second
attempt or go to flooded start routine.
Given that most of my flying is in Aridzona, ALL starts other than the
first one of the day are hot starts.
=-O
Bob wrote:
>
>
>> I don't have enough experience to understand why injected engines
>> have so much trouble when starting hot.
>
> In my IO-360 there are stainless steel fuel lines running from the
> fuel distribution spider on top of the engine to each cylinder. When
> the aircraft is on the ground the residual engine heat is absorbed by
> the fuel in the stainless steel lines and will vaporize.
>
> There are varied and numerous solutions to this problem some that may
> work for you:
> 1. Install a Purge Valve
> 2. Use hot starting procedures as outlined in the Lycoming engine manual
> 3. Reduce injector nozzle size to increase the fuel pressure in the
> lines
> 4. Keep the high pressure boost pump on during while engine is
> running and you are still on the ground
> 5. Take the top cowl off and let everything cool off
> 6. Park aircraft into the wind, open oil dipstick door
> 7. Install cooling louvers on the top cowl that only open when the
> aircraft is not moving
> 8. Probably some others solutions as well
>
> Bob
> RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | RV Safety record |
Just curious if anyone received this pdf file I posted a while back to
the list from Ron Wanttaja?
All the talk of RV safety and not one comment on his research comparing
RV's to other homebuilt
safety. Maybe pdf files do not come through or maybe no one can open it.
Let me know.
Jerry Springer
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:24:42 -0700, Jerry Springer wrote
>> Can can I post this on the RV-List?
>> There is a discussion going on there about how to make the RV flying
>> community safer and how to compare RV accidents to the rest of the
>> homebuilt accident rates. Someone ask how to break the RVs apart from
>> the rest of the homebuilt accident statistics. I would like to point people
>> to your article or maybe you could help us out some way with RV accident
>> statistics.
>
> Jerry
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I give talks to the local EAA chapters that go further than the articles.
Attached is a page from my presentation where I discuss RV accident causes and
compare them to the overall statistics. The data is based on accidents from
1998 through 2004, inclusive.
"General Pilot Error" is basically mistakes in the stick-and-rudder skills;
"SALA" stands for "Stupidity at Low Altitude," buzzing, flying up box canyons,
etc. In my presentations, I use a red star to call attention to interesting
results, such as the RV's higher rate in what I call 'cross-country' accidents.
The lower rate of pilot error accidents may well be due to the higher general
experience level of RV pilots, as shown by the median pilot hours.
During the subject period the annual fleet accident rate for all homebuilts was
about 0.94% (e.g., almost one out of every 100 homebuilts crashes in a given
year) and the RV fleet accident rate was almost identical (0.90%). In contrast,
the Glasair rate was 1.11%, The overall rate for all N-numbered aircraft was
0.63%, so homebuilts have a rate about 50% higher than the overall fleet.
I'm currently adding 2005 and 2006 data to my database, and will be updating the
graphs accordingly. Don't expect them to change too much, but you never
know....
Ron
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