---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/07/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:18 AM - Re: Airflow Fuel Filters (panamared5@brier.net) 2. 06:34 AM - Re: digital true airspeed indicator (Christopher Stone) 3. 07:44 AM - Re: digital true airspeed indicator (David E. Nelson) 4. 08:05 AM - Re: digital true airspeed indicator (Bruce Gray) 5. 09:37 AM - Re: digital true airspeed indicator (Tracy Crook) 6. 10:27 AM - Re: Carb replacement (Carlos Hernandez) 7. 10:37 AM - Digital TAS Indicator/Meter (John Fasching) 8. 10:40 AM - Re: Proseal remover? (jan) 9. 11:36 AM - Re: Airflow Fuel Filters (RICHARD MILLER) 10. 01:39 PM - MX-20 Install manual (Greg Young) 11. 02:39 PM - Re: Proseal remover? (Charles Kuss) 12. 02:40 PM - Alodining Prior to Fuel Tank Sealing was Fw: Re: Proseal remover? (Charles Kuss) 13. 02:57 PM - Re: Airflow Fuel Filters (Don) 14. 04:38 PM - Re: MX-20 Install manual (FASTPILOTRV8) 15. 06:12 PM - Re: sniffle valve in RV 7A (David Cudney) 16. 07:50 PM - Re: sniffle valve in RV 7A (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 17. 08:18 PM - Re: MX-20 Install manual (Greg Young) 18. 10:52 PM - Re: sniffle valve in RV 7A (David Cudney) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Airflow Fuel Filters From: "panamared5@brier.net" On 5/6/2008, "RICHARD MILLER" wrote: airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Are you sure about this? Mine is a metal screen and I clean it each year. I check for wear and tear and after 5 years it looks as good as new. Why change it? Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:44 AM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: Re: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator John... Try http://www.rockymountaininstruments.com/ They have digital display altimeter, VSI ans ASI Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR -----Original Message----- >From: John Fasching >Sent: May 6, 2008 5:40 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator > >Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. > >thanks for a clue. > >John ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:41 AM PST US From: "David E. Nelson" Subject: Re: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator Hi John, You might look at MGL Avionics (http://www.mglavionics.co.za/) and their Smart/Maxi/Infinity Singles. I think they only do IAS, but it never hurts to ask. Good luck, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Fasching wrote: > Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. > > thanks for a clue. > > John > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:23 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator To get TAS you need altitude and temperature. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E. Nelson Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator --> Hi John, You might look at MGL Avionics (http://www.mglavionics.co.za/) and their Smart/Maxi/Infinity Singles. I think they only do IAS, but it never hurts to ask. Good luck, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Fasching wrote: > Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I > want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' > type system. > > thanks for a clue. > > John > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:58 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator This isn't a good answer but I make an engine monitor (EM3) that includes a digital readout of TAS (up to a max of 255 mph). Hmm.. Wonder if there is a market for a standalone instrument of this kind.... Tracy Crook On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:40 PM, John Fasching wrote: > Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a > stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. > > thanks for a clue. > > John > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:39 AM PST US From: Carlos Hernandez Subject: Re: RV-List: Carb replacement Many places still offer this carb such as Aircraft Spruce, Chiefs, Kelly Aerospace and others. Maybe even contact Tempest [owned by Aero Accessories] which purchased the Marvel line from Precision Airmotive. They are now supporting the carb line. Carlos in AZ Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > Howdy all- > > Time to replace Mojos carb- she's presently sporting a Marvel-Schebler > MA-4SPA, pn 10-5009, and it has worn to the point that idle cutoff > isn't. I also suspect there may be other difficulties since I'm > seeing uncharacteristically high EGTs, and enrichening seems to offer > little remedy. > > I know there has been some turmoil of late in the world of > carburetors, but can anyone offer a rock-solid source for a rebuilt > replacement for this item? > > Thanks From The PossumWorks in TN > Mark - do not archive > http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food > . > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Checked by AVG. > -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers Company 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:51 AM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: RV-List: Digital TAS Indicator/Meter Thanks to all for your suggestions. I am going to look into a Rocky Mountains Micro Encoder. The only real TAS (only) that I have seen is the Insight TAS 1000 that was suggested, but I suspect it would cost more than my whole airplane. Thanks for the suggestions/help. I appreciate it. John ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:14 AM PST US From: jan Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection .. :-) ...) & Charles Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely esthetic or is there a technical (chemical) reason why they are use on different parts of the aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the "gold" Alodine quite a lot - prior to painting ... on several parts of the RV I am building. Especially the spar. >From a adhesion point - paint does stick very well to a Alodined surface - Does the maker of ProSeal have any official policy on using Alodine prior to application of its product? Do you know "how many / how widely" the practice of alodining the inside of the tanks are ?? Jan _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22 Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? hi guys jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by the way had to follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear for skins and gold for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water from bad fuel is bad for alum tanks. larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when they start to leak change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take about an hour per tank. about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior to the twin pump setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the pumps, but, big but, do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install one filter per tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at night. remember the airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never like the one filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for an stc for two. airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Larry Bowen wrote: FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to cut a couple of them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. Sometimes second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... -- Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan > wrote: Hi Richard, I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First ... I have bought the domed nut plates... they are used on commercial planes from what I understand ... and should make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse with water ... and scuff the seams is fine ?? Appreciate you comments on this Best regards Jan _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101. static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4 psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds. so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice. after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks types of leaks. seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading. fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines. the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure. the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to. sealant application tricks. clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface. mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps. don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing don't exceed the pot life mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps. use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs. the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly. tips of opening seams sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. removal of sealant scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done. tank testing, quick easy and cheap connect air/nitrogen supply to vent connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly. spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else. sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. rick miller _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and http://www.matronics.com/contribution t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List a>http://forums.matronics.com _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and

Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection  .. J …) & Charles

 

Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely esthetic or is there a  technical (chemical) reason why they are use on different parts of the aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the “gold” Alodine quite a lot – prior to painting … on several parts of the RV I am building. Especially the spar.

 

From a adhesion point – paint does stick very well to a Alodined surface – Does the maker of ProSeal have any official policy on using Alodine prior to application of its product?

 

Do you know “how many / how widely” the practice of alodining the inside of the tanks are ??

 

Jan

 

 

  

 

From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER
Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover?

 

hi guys

 

    jan  i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by the way had to follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear for skins and gold for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water from bad fuel is bad for alum tanks.

 

larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when they start to leak change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take about an hour per tank.

 

about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior to the twin pump setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the pumps, but, big but, do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install one filter per tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at night. remember the airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never like the one filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for an stc for two. airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat

Larry Bowen <larry@bowenaero.com> wrote:

FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to cut a couple of them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up.  Sometimes second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off....

--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan <jan@claver.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Richard,

 

I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First … I have bought the domed nut plates… they are used on commercial planes from what I understand … and should make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks.

 

Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me … I thought cleaning with Aluprep …rinse with water … and scuff the seams is fine ??

 

Appreciate you comments on this

 

Best regards

 

Jan

 

From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER
Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover?

 

Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101.

 

static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4

 psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps.

 

next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds.

 

so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates?  we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice.

 

after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks

 

types of leaks.

 

seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction,  or extreme g loading.

 

fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside.

 

access plate/fitting leaks,  most common. cause improperly applied sealant,  wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines.

 

the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure.

 

the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to.

 

sealant application tricks.

 

clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface. 

 

mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion

 

tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up

 

gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you

 

proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps.

 

don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure.

 

use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing

 

don't exceed the pot life

 

mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps.

 

use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs.

 

the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly.

 

tips of opening seams

 

sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better.

 

removal of sealant

 

scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done.

 

tank testing, quick easy and cheap

 

connect air/nitrogen supply to vent

connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth

loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides

add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly.

spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum.

 

how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else.

sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days.

 

and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps.

 

 

rick miller

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

 

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________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:43 AM PST US From: RICHARD MILLER Subject: Re: RV-List: Airflow Fuel Filters bob all of the airflows i have worked on had an auto type can inline before the pumps that was the filter i was refering to not the screen. rick "panamared5@brier.net" wrote: On 5/6/2008, "RICHARD MILLER" wrote: airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Are you sure about this? Mine is a metal screen and I clean it each year. I check for wear and tear and after 5 years it looks as good as new. Why change it? Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:08 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RV-List: MX-20 Install manual I need a PDF copy of the installation manual for an MX-20. I bought a demo unit and didn't get the manuals with it. I've found the Pilot's Guide & Quick Reference online but Garmin says the install manual has to be downloaded by a dealer. I tried all the URLs from the archives and tried to guess the name and download it blindly. No luck - it looks like Garmin has truly hidden it this time - unless someone knows more tricks. If anyone has it already or can download it and send it I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks. Regards, Greg Young Cell: 281-844-0987 gyoung@cs-sol.com www.bentwing.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:46 PM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? Jan, The difference between "clear" and "gold" Alodine (or Iridite) is only cosmetic. They add a dye to the "gold" to aid you in knowing when the chromic conversion process has completed. I just did a quick search regarding the application of Pro-Seal or Chem Seal (as supplied by Vans) Here is what I found. http://www.aviationproductsinc.com/Publications/TDS_PDF/TDS_CS3204.pdf http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NR/rdonlyres/22FFA52B-AC2C-4D75-AE20-08E03ACF8EB8/0/asaguide.pdf Both simply stress that the surface be clean. I only know of several sets of fuel tanks which were built locally, which were Alodined prior to sealing. No one has had any sealing problems so far. Charlie Kuss --- On Wed, 5/7/08, jan wrote: > From: jan > Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 1:22 PM > Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection .. :-) ...) > & Charles > > > > Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely > esthetic or is there a > technical (chemical) reason why they are use on different > parts of the > aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the "gold" > Alodine quite a lot - prior to > painting ... on several parts of the RV I am building. > Especially the spar. > > > > >From a adhesion point - paint does stick very well to a > Alodined surface - > Does the maker of ProSeal have any official policy on using > Alodine prior to > application of its product? > > > > Do you know "how many / how widely" the practice > of alodining the inside of > the tanks are ?? > > > > Jan > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > RICHARD MILLER > Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > hi guys > > > > jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by > the way had to > follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear > for skins and gold > for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water > from bad fuel is > bad for alum tanks. > > > > larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when > they start to leak > change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take > about an hour > per tank. > > > > about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior > to the twin pump > setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the > pumps, but, big but, > do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install > one filter per > tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at > night. remember the > airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never > like the one > filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for > an stc for two. > airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, > don't cheat > > Larry Bowen wrote: > > FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to > cut a couple of > them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. > Sometimes > second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... > > -- > Larry Bowen > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan > > wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > > > I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I > have read your > article with great interest. First ... I have bought the > domed nut plates... > they are used on commercial planes from what I understand > ... and should > make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover > the nut plate after > fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. > > > > Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? > That is a new one > to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse with > water ... and scuff > the seams is fine ?? > > > > Appreciate you comments on this > > > > Best regards > > > > Jan > > > > > _____ > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > ] On > Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER > Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, > lets cover fuel > tank 101. > > > > static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape > can hold .5 psi. > dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can > reach 4 > > psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with > checking tanks is the > static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they > need to be > stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. > > > > next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as > it flexes. tearing > the sealant bonds. > > > > so lets assume that you built it close to right and now > want to test it. > water, fuel, any material with the exception of the > original sealant will > contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove > the contaminates? > we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants > we are using are > sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the > testing medium of > choice. > > > > after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal > that had over > twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does > not work and will > result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the > pilot is always > the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support > might take a > little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks > > > > types of leaks. > > > > seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor > construction, or extreme g > loading. > > > > fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading > and flexing of the > structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank > fasteners are to > be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. > > > > access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly > applied sealant, > wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too > long of screw > that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed > orings. rotation > of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two > wrenches when removing > lines. > > > > the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of > structural integrity of > this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where > designed around the > larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and > can be a problem to > break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the > structure. > > > > the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at > fasteners and seams is > to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the > effected area to > draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to > the void. > additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet > helps to. > > > > sealant application tricks. > > > > clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most > primers but loves a > good cleaned alodined surface. > > > > mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps > with adhesion > > > > tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up > > > > gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad > for you > > > > proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill > gaps. > > > > don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. > > > > use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for > fillets and fastener > sealing > > > > don't exceed the pot life > > > > mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale > really helps. > > > > use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 > stuff to be almost > useless for most jobs. > > > > the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank > not globed on the > outside beside it looks ugly. > > > > tips of opening seams > > > > sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the > corners to help > prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. > > > > removal of sealant > > > > scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine > after done. > > > > tank testing, quick easy and cheap > > > > connect air/nitrogen supply to vent > > connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth > > loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a > loop with three feet > high on both sides > > add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one > side then the other. > you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, > fill slowly. > > spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use > hand soap or > aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. > > > > how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything > else. > > sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one > way to track > them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of > the tank it will > show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. > > > > and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. > > > > > > rick miller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > > a>http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:30 PM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Alodining Prior to Fuel Tank Sealing was Fw: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? I am resending this with the subject line changed to aid in easier searching of the archieves. Charlie Kuss --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Charles Kuss wrote: > From: Charles Kuss > Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 5:35 PM > Jan, > The difference between "clear" and > "gold" Alodine (or Iridite) is only cosmetic. > They add a dye to the "gold" to aid you in > knowing when the chromic conversion process has completed. > I just did a quick search regarding the application of > Pro-Seal or Chem Seal (as supplied by Vans) > Here is what I found. > > http://www.aviationproductsinc.com/Publications/TDS_PDF/TDS_CS3204.pdf > > http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NR/rdonlyres/22FFA52B-AC2C-4D75-AE20-08E03ACF8EB8/0/asaguide.pdf > > Both simply stress that the surface be clean. > > I only know of several sets of fuel tanks which were built > locally, which were Alodined prior to sealing. No one has > had any sealing problems so far. > > Charlie Kuss > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/7/08, jan > wrote: > > > From: jan > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 1:22 PM > > Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection .. :-) > ...) > > & Charles > > > > > > > > Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely > > esthetic or is there a > > technical (chemical) reason why they are use on > different > > parts of the > > aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the > "gold" > > Alodine quite a lot - prior to > > painting ... on several parts of the RV I am building. > > Especially the spar. > > > > > > > > >From a adhesion point - paint does stick very well > to a > > Alodined surface - > > Does the maker of ProSeal have any official policy on > using > > Alodine prior to > > application of its product? > > > > > > > > Do you know "how many / how widely" the > practice > > of alodining the inside of > > the tanks are ?? > > > > > > > > Jan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf > Of > > RICHARD MILLER > > Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22 > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > > > > > hi guys > > > > > > > > jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and > by > > the way had to > > follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. > clear > > for skins and gold > > for every thing else. besides i like the color. and > water > > from bad fuel is > > bad for alum tanks. > > > > > > > > larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but > when > > they start to leak > > change them out when you pull the tank. it should only > take > > about an hour > > per tank. > > > > > > > > about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter > prior > > to the twin pump > > setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the > > pumps, but, big but, > > do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. > install > > one filter per > > tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at > > night. remember the > > airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have > never > > like the one > > filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should > apply for > > an stc for two. > > airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, > > don't cheat > > > > Larry Bowen wrote: > > > > FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and > had to > > cut a couple of > > them off because they interfered with the fuel > pick-up. > > Sometimes > > second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... > > > > -- > > Larry Bowen > > Larry@BowenAero.com > > http://BowenAero.com > > > > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > > > I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this > summer. I > > have read your > > article with great interest. First ... I have bought > the > > domed nut plates... > > they are used on commercial planes from what I > understand > > ... and should > > make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then > cover > > the nut plate after > > fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against > leaks. > > > > > > > > Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs > ?? > > That is a new one > > to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse > with > > water ... and scuff > > the seams is fine ?? > > > > > > > > Appreciate you comments on this > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > > Jan > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER > > Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > > > > > Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel > leaks, > > lets cover fuel > > tank 101. > > > > > > > > static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct > tape > > can hold .5 psi. > > dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and > can > > reach 4 > > > > psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with > > checking tanks is the > > static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and > they > > need to be > > stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the > caps. > > > > > > > > next problem is the inherent movement of the structure > as > > it flexes. tearing > > the sealant bonds. > > > > > > > > so lets assume that you built it close to right and > now > > want to test it. > > water, fuel, any material with the exception of the > > original sealant will > > contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we > remove > > the contaminates? > > we don't contaminate in the first place. the > sealants > > we are using are > > sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is > the > > testing medium of > > choice. > > > > > > > > after inspecting aircraft with properly applied > pro-seal > > that had over > > twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing > does > > not work and will > > result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is > that the > > pilot is always > > the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic > support > > might take a > > little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks > > > > > > > > types of leaks. > > > > > > > > seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor > > construction, or extreme g > > loading. > > > > > > > > fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g > loading > > and flexing of the > > structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all > tank > > fasteners are to > > be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. > > > > > > > > access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause > improperly > > applied sealant, > > wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and > sealed. too > > long of screw > > that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, > failed > > orings. rotation > > of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two > > wrenches when removing > > lines. > > > > > > > > the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of > > structural integrity of > > this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where > > designed around the > > larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well > and > > can be a problem to > > break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying > the > > structure. > > > > > > > > the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at > > fasteners and seams is > > to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at > the > > effected area to > > draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant > in to > > the void. > > additional rivets added along seam lines while still > wet > > helps to. > > > > > > > > sealant application tricks. > > > > > > > > clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and > most > > primers but loves a > > good cleaned alodined surface. > > > > > > > > mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface > helps > > with adhesion > > > > > > > > tape applied along side the joints to assist with > clean up > > > > > > > > gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek > is bad > > for you > > > > > > > > proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill > > gaps. > > > > > > > > don't use to much. or you will get a wavy > structure. > > > > > > > > use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b > for > > fillets and fastener > > sealing > > > > > > > > don't exceed the pot life > > > > > > > > mix it right and use the correct proportions a good > scale > > really helps. > > > > > > > > use the longest pot life you can, i have found that > 1/2 > > stuff to be almost > > useless for most jobs. > > > > > > > > the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the > tank > > not globed on the > > outside beside it looks ugly. > > > > > > > > tips of opening seams > > > > > > > > sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round > the > > corners to help > > prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. > > > > > > > > removal of sealant > > > > > > > > scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and > realodine > > after done. > > > > > > > > tank testing, quick easy and cheap > > > > > > > > connect air/nitrogen supply to vent > > > > connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth > > > > loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have > a > > loop with three feet > > high on both sides > > > > add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on > one > > side then the other. > > you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken > here, > > fill slowly. > > > > spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. > use > > hand soap or > > aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. > > > > > > > > how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried > everything > > else. > > > > sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, > but one > > way to track > > them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside > of > > the tank it will > > show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. > > > > > > > > and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > rick miller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > > > > a>http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:37 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Airflow Fuel Filters From: "Don" The filter element does not need to be replaced. Just inspect and clean at your condition inspection. If you need new O-rings, give us a call, the Viton O-rings are a few bucks for the set. Don at Airflow Performance Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181794#181794 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:27 PM PST US From: FASTPILOTRV8 Subject: Re: RV-List: MX-20 Install manual Greg I think I have one but I am not going up to the hangar until Sunday . I you haven't gotten a copy by then call me my cell 847-727-0026 Dane N838RV RV8a In a message dated 05/07/08 15:41:10 Central Daylight Time, gyoung@cs-sol.com writes: I need a PDF copy of the installation manual for an MX-20. I bought a demo unit and didn't get the manuals with it. I've found the Pilot's Guide & Quick Reference online but Garmin says the install manual has to be downloaded by a dealer. I tried all the URLs from the archives and tried to guess the name and download it blindly. No luck - it looks like Garmin has truly hidden it this time - unless someone knows more tricks. If anyone has it already or can download it and send it I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks. Regards, Greg Young Cell: 281-844-0987 gyoung@cs-sol.com www.bentwing.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:13 PM PST US From: David Cudney Subject: Re: RV-List: sniffle valve in RV 7A from Dave Cudney RV 7A struggler > I am getting further along with my project and was just buttoning up > a few odds an ends when I came to the sniffle valve for my IO 369. > On the tail dragger there is not much of a problem routing the drain > line from the sniffle valve --- but on the nose dragger, the nose > gear bracing on the engine mount is in the way. Has any one out > there solved this problem and what did you do? Thanks in advance dave > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:52 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: sniffle valve in RV 7A In a message dated 05/07/2008 8:14:16 PM Central Daylight Time, yenduc@sbcglobal.net writes: Has any one out > there solved this problem and what did you do? On a recently installed valve on an Aerosport IO-360 with AFP injection mounted to forward sump (-7A), I had more of a problem getting the drain tube away from the Vetterman crossovers. I cut the tube from the sniffle valve fairly short (1"?) and soldered a brass 90 deg. fitting to it. The other end of this fitting (from the aviation plumbing aisle at Lowes) provided for connection for a copper tube the same size as from the sniffle valve (1/8"?) using a brass compresion ferule. I installed the valve, then bent/routed a copper tube from the 90 aft, securing it mid-length to the exhaust hangar cross-piece and extended it aft out the air outlet so that when it drips (which it WILL) the fuel will simply drop to the ground rather than down the nose gear fairing and onto the pant. Not sure if this will help with your situation, but it may offer some options... >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:35 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: MX-20 Install manual Thank you all. I got the manual sent to me off list. Even after all these years I still marvel at the speed of response on the lists. Thanks! Regards, Greg Young _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FASTPILOTRV8 Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:34 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: MX-20 Install manual Greg I think I have one but I am not going up to the hangar until Sunday . I you haven't gotten a copy by then call me my cell 847-727-0026 Dane N838RV RV8a In a message dated 05/07/08 15:41:10 Central Daylight Time, gyoung@cs-sol.com writes: I need a PDF copy of the installation manual for an MX-20. I bought a demo unit and didn't get the manuals with it. I've found the Pilot's Guide & Quick Reference online but Garmin says the install manual has to be downloaded by a dealer. I tried all the URLs from the archives and tried to guess the name and download it blindly. No luck - it looks like Garmin has truly hidden it this time - unless someone knows more tricks. If anyone has it already or can download it and send it I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks. Regards, Greg Young Cell: 281-844-0987 gyoung@cs-sol.com www.bentwing.com ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List" alt="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?RV-List .matronics.com" alt="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution" alt="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contrib ution _____ Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com : America's #1 Mapping Site. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:45 PM PST US From: David Cudney Subject: Re: RV-List: sniffle valve in RV 7A Thanks --- I've got one of those aviation plumbing stores close by -- I'll try your method. dave On May 7, 2008, at 7:47 PM, Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 05/07/2008 8:14:16 PM Central Daylight Time, yenduc@sbcglobal.net > writes: > Has any one out > > there solved this problem and what did you do? > On a recently installed valve on an Aerosport IO-360 with AFP > injection mounted to forward sump (-7A), I had more of a problem > getting the drain tube away from the Vetterman crossovers. I cut > the tube from the sniffle valve fairly short (1"?) and soldered a > brass 90 deg. fitting to it. The other end of this fitting (from > the aviation plumbing aisle at Lowes) provided for connection for a > copper tube the same size as from the sniffle valve (1/8"?) using a > brass compresion ferule. I installed the valve, then bent/routed a > copper tube from the 90 aft, securing it mid-length to the exhaust > hangar cross-piece and extended it aft out the air outlet so that > when it drips (which it WILL) the fuel will simply drop to the > ground rather than down the nose gear fairing and onto the pant. > > Not sure if this will help with your situation, but it may offer > some options... > > From The PossumWorks in TN > Mark > http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/ > > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.