Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:35 AM - Re: Say What? (Jim Sears)
2. 03:56 AM - Re: Lyco announces use of autogas (Michael W Stewart)
3. 05:11 AM - Re: Say What? (Tim Bryan)
4. 06:37 AM - Re: Lyco announces use of autogas (Tracy Crook)
5. 06:48 AM - Re: Say What? (linn Walters)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Charles Kuss)
7. 09:58 AM - Re: Say What? (Brian Meyette)
8. 11:42 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Tracy Crook)
9. 12:21 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Brad Templin)
10. 12:49 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (scott bilinski)
11. 01:09 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Dale Ensing)
12. 01:14 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (smitty@smittysrv.com)
13. 02:32 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (linn Walters)
14. 02:52 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (JFLEISC@aol.com)
15. 09:05 PM - Re: Say What? (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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Gee, golly. I've been flying on mogas since 1986. The
big difference is that the manufacturer is actually saying
it can run on it, now. I don't know what one has to do to
prove fuel meets their standard; but, it may be a nothing
thing to do. I also don't know what their feelings are
concerning mogas with a little ethanol in it. I guess I've
flown over 1900 logged hours behind engines running on
auto gas. My airplanes haven't crashed and burned,
yet.
With the price of gas, these days, manufacturers have to
do something to make it easier for us. Otherwise, their
market will shrink more than it already has. I've logged very
little time in my RV, this year. I've used the money saved
to help feed our other vehicles. Selling my RV may be my
next move. At $30+ per hour fuel cost, it's getting a bit out
of line for my meager fixed income.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS
EAA Tech Counselor
----- Original Message -----
From: Vanremog@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM
Subject: RV-List: Say What?
Lycoming announces this.
Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term
availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced
this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded
automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360
product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told
AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the
fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be
no degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork
drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from
the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the
airplane also gets certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh
said, and he could not estimate how long that would take, but said it is
also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific
type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228
(in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to
find, Walsh said, but users must verify that they are getting that
particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will do.
The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and
provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the
continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The
popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft,
including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more.
This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler
Florence" on AOL Food.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: RV-List:Lyco announces use of autogas |
Seems odd they would not also include the 0/io 540s while they are at i
t.
Mike
Vanremog@aol.com
Sent by:
owner-rv-list-ser
To
ver@matronics.com rv-list@matronics.com
cc
06/05/2008 02:40 Subj
ect
AM RV-List: Say What?
Please respond to
rv-list@matronics
.com
Lycoming announces this.
Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availabil
ity
of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced this week that
it
is working to get approval for the use of unleaded automotive gasoline
for
its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 product lines. Ian Wals
h,
general manager for Lycoming Engines, told AVweb the approval will not
require any modification to the engines, the fuel will not need any
additives or special treatment, and there will be no degradation in eng
ine
performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen,"
he
said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners
cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. Tha
t is
up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long
that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The
engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas,
designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.).
This
fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify that t
hey
are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will
do.
The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provide
s an
alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of
leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-
360
engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys,
Diamonds, and more.
This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Floren
ce"
on AOL Food.
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
Message 3
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Hi Jim,
I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in your
RV-6. Do you check for ethanol first? Are you using premium? Did you do
anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to use this without
concern?
I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to be
comfortable using auto fuel.
I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy.
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TB 100 hours now
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sears
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What?
Gee, golly. I've been flying on mogas since 1986. The
big difference is that the manufacturer is actually saying
it can run on it, now. I don't know what one has to do to
prove fuel meets their standard; but, it may be a nothing
thing to do. I also don't know what their feelings are
concerning mogas with a little ethanol in it. I guess I've
flown over 1900 logged hours behind engines running on
auto gas. My airplanes haven't crashed and burned,
yet.
With the price of gas, these days, manufacturers have to
do something to make it easier for us. Otherwise, their
market will shrink more than it already has. I've logged very
little time in my RV, this year. I've used the money saved
to help feed our other vehicles. Selling my RV may be my
next move. At $30+ per hour fuel cost, it's getting a bit out
of line for my meager fixed income.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS
EAA Tech Counselor
----- Original Message -----
From: Vanremog@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM
Subject: RV-List: Say What?
Lycoming announces this.
Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability
of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines
<http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-06-02-08.jsp
> announced this week that it is working to get approval for the use of
unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and
IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told
AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the
fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no
degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to
make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this
fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets
certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not
estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a
paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI
automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in
the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must
verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded
auto gas will do.
The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an
alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of
leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360
engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds,
and more.
This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
_____
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch
<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002>
"Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: RV-List:Lyco announces use of autogas |
Finally, sanity prevails.
It's always been that easy. Only bureaucrats, myths, sacred cows and
perhaps a lobbyist or two stand in the way of this change. It only took
$130 bbl. oil to pressure them to do the right thing.
Tracy Crook
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
wrote:
> Seems odd they would not also include the 0/io 540s while they are at it.
> Mike
>
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Vanremog---06/05/2008 03:24:12
> AM---Lycoming announces this.]Vanremog---06/05/2008 03:24:12 AM---Lycoming
> announces this.
>
>
> *Vanremog@aol.com*
> Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>
> 06/05/2008 02:40 AM Please respond to
> rv-list@matronics.com
>
>
> To
>
> rv-list@matronics.com
> cc
>
>
> Subject
>
> RV-List: Say What?
> Lycoming announces this.
>
> Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability
> of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines *announced*<http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-06-02-08.jsp>this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded
> automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360
> product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told *
> AVweb* the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the
> fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no
> degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to
> make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this
> fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets
> certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not
> estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a
> paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI
> automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in
> the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must
> verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded
> auto gas will do.
>
> The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an
> alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of
> leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360
> engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds,
> and more.
>
> This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
>
>
> *N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)*
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. *Watch "Cooking with Tyler
> Florence" on AOL Food*<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002>
> .
> *
>
> ====================================
> ?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> ====================================
> u>http://forums.matronics.com
> ====================================
> ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
I'm not Jim, but like him have been a mogas user for years.
>
> I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in
> your RV-6.
>
I use mogas in my AA-1B (O-235-C2C) and my Pitts (O-360-A4A). It was
economics in the AA-1B, but it was the lead fouling problem in the
Pitts. For 13 years I hand-propped the Pitts, and lead fouling meant
far more exercise.
>
> Do you check for ethanol first?
>
In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means
we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular
..... both planes will run on regular, but the Pitts will ping on it
when the engine gets hot during aerobatics so I typically use high test
....... and there's alcohol, I can put in my vehicle and search
elsewhere. If I'm looking for high test, then I'll just have to pay the
few pennies for the fuel I tested. Gonna look funny on the credit card.
To further make my life miserable, our governor is working on a bill to
mandate the use of alcohol. Crap!!!
>
> Are you using premium?
>
Only in the Pitts.
>
> Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to
> use this without concern?
>
There should always be concern. Early on (in the early 80's) before the
signage requirement, I got some alcohol laced mogas that went into the
Pitts. It has a PS-5 pressure carburetor that operates on pressure
differences on many diaphragms. The alcohol ate the old black
diaphragms causing them to crack and leak. After spending a lot of my
mogas money on the rebuild (with red silicone diaphragms) the alcohol
problem went away ..... until now.
>
> I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to
> be comfortable using auto fuel.
>
Jim will have to reply to that one (RV-6), but you need to do the soul
searching yourself. In this case your mileage MAY differ. I've known
some RV pilots that had issues with vapor pressure in THEIR airplane.
I've known a whole lot more with NO issues with mogas.
>
> I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy.
>
I think this discussion should be left to the forum. There are a lot
more mogas users out there with experience and opinions that are
invaluable in this discussion. I hope they chime in.
As an aside, the STCs in place for the certified aircraft prohibit
alcohol in the mogas (and Lycoming does too in its new press release)
for good reason. It attacks rubber and is corrosive to aluminum (and
will soften proseal over time). How corrosive I don't know. Hell, air
is corrosive to aluminum!!! Without alcohol (in the fuel, of course!),
I have no qualms about using it ...... and will probably experiment with
high test in my RV-10 when it flies.
Best of luck Tim ..... and we're all gonna need it in the fuel wars ......
Linn ..... just one data point
>
>
>
> **Tim Bryan**
>
> **RV-6 Flying**
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Tim,
EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits
for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone or email.
I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use.
Charlie Kuss
PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG
with it.
snipped
> In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
> alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
> placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means
> we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular
snipped
Message 7
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The problem I see with this is that it seems to be getting more & more
difficult find auto fuel that isn=92t at least 10% ethanol
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Vanremog@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM
Subject: RV-List: Say What?
Lycoming announces this.
Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term
availability
of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines HYPERLINK
"http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-06-02-08.
jsp
" \nannounced this week that it is working to get approval for the use
of
unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360
and
IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines,
told
AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the
fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be
no
degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill,
to
make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by
this
fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also
gets
certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not
estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a
paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93
AKI
automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814
(in
the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users
must
verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any
unleaded
auto gas will do.
The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides
an
alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of
leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and
IO-360
engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys,
Diamonds,
and more.
This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
_____
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. HYPERLINK
"http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000
2"
\nWatch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
Checked by AVG.
6/4/2008
4:40 PM
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with
the hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant
materials. That's the route I went and except for the open question about
Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no
deterioration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make
my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them
anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket.
If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by
ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or
add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?
Hear-say is all I've heard so far.
Tracy (going flying come what may)
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss <chaskuss@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Tim,
> EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test
> kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone
> or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use.
> Charlie Kuss
> PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in
> MPG with it.
>
>
> snipped
> > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
> > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
> > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means
> > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular
> snipped
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
There is another problem most people don't think about with ethanol. They
use it as the octane booster in the fuel, so if you have any water in the t
anks, it bonds with the water and pulls it out of solution. Now you have fu
el that has a MUCH lower octane rating than it did before. It might be OK
if you're using it on a low compression o-320, but the high compression is
not as tolerant. I've had this problem in my Grumman when I accidentally g
ot some with ethanol and had a little water in one tank. Glad I had 100LL
in the other to switch to, 'cause it was not too happy with it at take off/
climb power!
Brad
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tracy Crook
Sent: Thu 6/5/2008 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with t
he hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant
materials. That's the route I went and except for the open question about
Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no deterio
ration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make my cor
k gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them anyway
so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket.
If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed b
y ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it
or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? Hear
-say is all I've heard so far.
Tracy (going flying come what may)
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss <chaskuss@yahoo.com<mailto:ch
askuss@yahoo.com>> wrote:
kuss@yahoo.com>>
Tim,
EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test
kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by pho
ne or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to us
e.
Charlie Kuss
PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in
MPG with it.
snipped
> In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
> alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
I called the company on my can of Pro-Seal (Flamemaster?)and was told alcoh
ol, auto fuel, JetA, and 100LL-is a non issue.=0A=0A-Scott=0ARV-8a=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryav
iation.com>=0ATo: rv-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:3
9:12 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
=0A=0A=0ANot that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to li
ve with the hand fate deals us.- Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcoh
ol tolerant materials.--That's the route I went and except for the open
question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there.-- So far I have
noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks.- It (or possibly just
time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak.-
Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads-on without gasket.
=0A-=0AIf I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water a
bsorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas wi
thout it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.=0A-=0ADoes an
yone have a link to info on-Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?- Hear-sa
y is all I've heard so far.--=0A-=0ATracy- (going flying come what
may)=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss <chaskuss@yahoo.
o.com>=0A=0ATim,=0A-EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were
offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. C
ontact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's
simple and easy to use.=0ACharlie Kuss=0APS I try to avoid ethanol in my ca
r, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it.=0A=0A=0Asnipped=0A> I
n Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not=0A> alco
hol was present. -Within the last month, pumps started sporting a=0A=0A
====0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Another option to Proseal (polysulfide) is fluorosilicone sealant. I used D
ow Corning 730 solvent resistant sealant on my wing inspection plates and f
uel gauge sender plates. It has held up well on the aircraft over four year
s and the test sample ( two aluminum pieces bonded together submerged in 10
0LL for eight years) still looks good. The resistance to methanol is 0.7 %
volume swell with -3 points change in durometer hardness.
Dale
Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? He
ar-say is all I've heard so far.
Tracy (going flying come what may)
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Looking to the future... I have finished my wings and prosealed everything
in the tanks. If we are eventually faced with the ethanol mix in the gas,
what things need to change in the construction of the fuselage and engine
to handle it? I have just started working on my fuselage.
Smitty
http://SmittysRV.com
Original Message:
-----------------
From: scott bilinski rv8a2001@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
I called the company on my can of Pro-Seal (Flamemaster?)and was told
alcohol, auto fuel, JetA, and 100LLis a non issue.
Scott
RV-8a
----- Original Message ----
From: Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:39:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with
the hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol
tolerant materials.That's the route I went and except for the open
question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have
noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just
time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak.
Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheadson without gasket.
If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed
by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it
or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
Does anyone have a link to info onProseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?
Hear-say is all I've heard so far.
Tracy (going flying come what may)
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss <chaskuss@yahoo.com> wrote:
Tim,
EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test
kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by
phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to
use.
Charlie Kuss
PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in
MPG with it.
snipped
> In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
> alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
==
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Tracy Crook wrote:
snip
> Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?
> Hear-say is all I've heard so far.
The only 'real' info I have is from my Grumman Gang ...... the AA-5Xs
use proseal in the wet wing much like the RVs. They do leak over time,
and in repairing a leaking wing they noticed that the proseal was 'soft'
..... which is good when you're trying to clean the old proseal to fix a
leak ..... but not a good thing for the whole tank at once. The owner
had used mogas ...... with alcohol as it turned out .....
A definitive point? No, but that's enough info for me. The next time
somebody mixes up a batch of proseal, put a dab in some denatured
alcohol and let us know what happens. Pure alcohol would be worse on
the proseal than rubbing alcohol, I think.
Linn
>
> Tracy (going flying come what may)
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
In a message dated 6/5/2008 2:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy@rotaryaviation.com writes:
Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with
the hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant
materials. That's the route I went and except for the open question about
Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no deterioration
of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets
for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them anyway so I
prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket.
If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by
ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or
add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?
Hear-say is all I've heard so far.
I've been using premium auto fuel w/alcohol for about 5+ years in my -4. My
0-360 likes it better than avgas (in both winter and summer). Less fouling and
little to no buildup on the exhaust valves. It has been deteriorating the
Proseal in the tanks though. Tough call since my left tank was never built
right in the first place (bad leaks). Signs of possible leakage on the right.
I
noticed that on the PPG site the data sheet on the most common Proseal (I
forget the number. what 'Spruce sells) has no mention of alcohol resistance.
Their Proseal #PS-890 series, however, specifically states 'excellent resistance
to....alcohol...). That is what I'll be trying as I reseal my tanks. Will
probably not know if it works for another 5 years or so.
Jim
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 15
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Note that the ASTM std they chose does permit alcohol. Also beware that
mogas is a solvent for at least the older varieties of PRC sealant. Some
folks that tried using it in older Mooneys soon developed significant
fuel leaks.
Brian Meyette wrote:
>
> The problem I see with this is that it seems to be getting more & more
> difficult find auto fuel that isnt at least 10% ethanol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Vanremog@aol.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV-List: Say What?
>
>
>
> Lycoming announces this.
>
>
>
> Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term
> availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines
> **announced**
> <http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-06-02-08.jsp>
> this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded
> automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and
> IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines,
> told /AVweb/ the approval will not require any modification to the
> engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment,
> and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's
> essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He
> expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot
> implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is
> up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how
> long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork
> issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI
> automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM
> D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said,
> but users must verify that they are getting that particular type --
> not just any unleaded auto gas will do.
>
> The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and
> provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the
> continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The
> popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft,
> including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more.
>
> This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
>
>
>
>
>
> *N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)*
>
>
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