---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/05/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:35 AM - Re: Say What? (Jim Sears) 2. 03:56 AM - Re: Lyco announces use of autogas (Michael W Stewart) 3. 05:11 AM - Re: Say What? (Tim Bryan) 4. 06:37 AM - Re: Lyco announces use of autogas (Tracy Crook) 5. 06:48 AM - Re: Say What? (linn Walters) 6. 09:39 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Charles Kuss) 7. 09:58 AM - Re: Say What? (Brian Meyette) 8. 11:42 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Tracy Crook) 9. 12:21 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Brad Templin) 10. 12:49 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (scott bilinski) 11. 01:09 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Dale Ensing) 12. 01:14 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (smitty@smittysrv.com) 13. 02:32 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (linn Walters) 14. 02:52 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (JFLEISC@aol.com) 15. 09:05 PM - Re: Say What? (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:35 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What? Gee, golly. I've been flying on mogas since 1986. The big difference is that the manufacturer is actually saying it can run on it, now. I don't know what one has to do to prove fuel meets their standard; but, it may be a nothing thing to do. I also don't know what their feelings are concerning mogas with a little ethanol in it. I guess I've flown over 1900 logged hours behind engines running on auto gas. My airplanes haven't crashed and burned, yet. With the price of gas, these days, manufacturers have to do something to make it easier for us. Otherwise, their market will shrink more than it already has. I've logged very little time in my RV, this year. I've used the money saved to help feed our other vehicles. Selling my RV may be my next move. At $30+ per hour fuel cost, it's getting a bit out of line for my meager fixed income. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor ----- Original Message ----- From: Vanremog@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM Subject: RV-List: Say What? Lycoming announces this. Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will do. The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more. This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List:Lyco announces use of autogas From: Michael W Stewart Seems odd they would not also include the 0/io 540s while they are at i t. Mike Vanremog@aol.com Sent by: owner-rv-list-ser To ver@matronics.com rv-list@matronics.com cc 06/05/2008 02:40 Subj ect AM RV-List: Say What? Please respond to rv-list@matronics .com Lycoming announces this. Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availabil ity of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 product lines. Ian Wals h, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no degradation in eng ine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. Tha t is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify that t hey are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will do. The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provide s an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO- 360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more. This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Floren ce" on AOL Food. ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:06 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Say What? Hi Jim, I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in your RV-6. Do you check for ethanol first? Are you using premium? Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to use this without concern? I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to be comfortable using auto fuel. I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB 100 hours now _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sears Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:27 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What? Gee, golly. I've been flying on mogas since 1986. The big difference is that the manufacturer is actually saying it can run on it, now. I don't know what one has to do to prove fuel meets their standard; but, it may be a nothing thing to do. I also don't know what their feelings are concerning mogas with a little ethanol in it. I guess I've flown over 1900 logged hours behind engines running on auto gas. My airplanes haven't crashed and burned, yet. With the price of gas, these days, manufacturers have to do something to make it easier for us. Otherwise, their market will shrink more than it already has. I've logged very little time in my RV, this year. I've used the money saved to help feed our other vehicles. Selling my RV may be my next move. At $30+ per hour fuel cost, it's getting a bit out of line for my meager fixed income. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor ----- Original Message ----- From: Vanremog@aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM Subject: RV-List: Say What? Lycoming announces this. Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will do. The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more. This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:21 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List:Lyco announces use of autogas Finally, sanity prevails. It's always been that easy. Only bureaucrats, myths, sacred cows and perhaps a lobbyist or two stand in the way of this change. It only took $130 bbl. oil to pressure them to do the right thing. Tracy Crook On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Michael W Stewart wrote: > Seems odd they would not also include the 0/io 540s while they are at it. > Mike > > > [image: Inactive hide details for Vanremog---06/05/2008 03:24:12 > AM---Lycoming announces this.]Vanremog---06/05/2008 03:24:12 AM---Lycoming > announces this. > > > *Vanremog@aol.com* > Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > 06/05/2008 02:40 AM Please respond to > rv-list@matronics.com > > > To > > rv-list@matronics.com > cc > > > Subject > > RV-List: Say What? > Lycoming announces this. > > Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability > of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines *announced*this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded > automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 > product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told * > AVweb* the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the > fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no > degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to > make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this > fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets > certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not > estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a > paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI > automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in > the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must > verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded > auto gas will do. > > The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an > alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of > leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360 > engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, > and more. > > This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? > > > *N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)* > > > ------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. *Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food* > . > * > > ==================================== > ?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > ==================================== > u>http://forums.matronics.com > ==================================== > ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ==================================== > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:57 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What? Tim Bryan wrote: > > Hi Jim, > I'm not Jim, but like him have been a mogas user for years. > > I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in > your RV-6. > I use mogas in my AA-1B (O-235-C2C) and my Pitts (O-360-A4A). It was economics in the AA-1B, but it was the lead fouling problem in the Pitts. For 13 years I hand-propped the Pitts, and lead fouling meant far more exercise. > > Do you check for ethanol first? > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular ..... both planes will run on regular, but the Pitts will ping on it when the engine gets hot during aerobatics so I typically use high test ....... and there's alcohol, I can put in my vehicle and search elsewhere. If I'm looking for high test, then I'll just have to pay the few pennies for the fuel I tested. Gonna look funny on the credit card. To further make my life miserable, our governor is working on a bill to mandate the use of alcohol. Crap!!! > > Are you using premium? > Only in the Pitts. > > Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to > use this without concern? > There should always be concern. Early on (in the early 80's) before the signage requirement, I got some alcohol laced mogas that went into the Pitts. It has a PS-5 pressure carburetor that operates on pressure differences on many diaphragms. The alcohol ate the old black diaphragms causing them to crack and leak. After spending a lot of my mogas money on the rebuild (with red silicone diaphragms) the alcohol problem went away ..... until now. > > I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to > be comfortable using auto fuel. > Jim will have to reply to that one (RV-6), but you need to do the soul searching yourself. In this case your mileage MAY differ. I've known some RV pilots that had issues with vapor pressure in THEIR airplane. I've known a whole lot more with NO issues with mogas. > > I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy. > I think this discussion should be left to the forum. There are a lot more mogas users out there with experience and opinions that are invaluable in this discussion. I hope they chime in. As an aside, the STCs in place for the certified aircraft prohibit alcohol in the mogas (and Lycoming does too in its new press release) for good reason. It attacks rubber and is corrosive to aluminum (and will soften proseal over time). How corrosive I don't know. Hell, air is corrosive to aluminum!!! Without alcohol (in the fuel, of course!), I have no qualms about using it ...... and will probably experiment with high test in my RV-10 when it flies. Best of luck Tim ..... and we're all gonna need it in the fuel wars ...... Linn ..... just one data point > > > > **Tim Bryan** > > **RV-6 Flying** > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:47 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Tim, EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use. Charlie Kuss PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it. snipped > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular snipped ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:09 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Say What? The problem I see with this is that it seems to be getting more & more difficult find auto fuel that isn=92t at least 10% ethanol _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vanremog@aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM Subject: RV-List: Say What? Lycoming announces this. Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines HYPERLINK "http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-06-02-08. jsp " \nannounced this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will do. The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more. This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. HYPERLINK "http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000 2" \nWatch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Checked by AVG. 6/4/2008 4:40 PM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:44 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with the hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant materials. That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket. If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? Hear-say is all I've heard so far. Tracy (going flying come what may) On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss wrote: > > Tim, > EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test > kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone > or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use. > Charlie Kuss > PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in > MPG with it. > > > snipped > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not > > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a > > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means > > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular > snipped > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:31 PM PST US From: Brad Templin Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? There is another problem most people don't think about with ethanol. They use it as the octane booster in the fuel, so if you have any water in the t anks, it bonds with the water and pulls it out of solution. Now you have fu el that has a MUCH lower octane rating than it did before. It might be OK if you're using it on a low compression o-320, but the high compression is not as tolerant. I've had this problem in my Grumman when I accidentally g ot some with ethanol and had a little water in one tank. Glad I had 100LL in the other to switch to, 'cause it was not too happy with it at take off/ climb power! Brad _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tracy Crook Sent: Thu 6/5/2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with t he hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant materials. That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no deterio ration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make my cor k gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket. If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed b y ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? Hear -say is all I've heard so far. Tracy (going flying come what may) On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss > wrote: kuss@yahoo.com>> Tim, EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by pho ne or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to us e. Charlie Kuss PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it. snipped > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:14 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? I called the company on my can of Pro-Seal (Flamemaster?)and was told alcoh ol, auto fuel, JetA, and 100LL-is a non issue.=0A=0A-Scott=0ARV-8a=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Tracy Crook =0ATo: rv-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:3 9:12 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? =0A=0A=0ANot that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to li ve with the hand fate deals us.- Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcoh ol tolerant materials.--That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there.-- So far I have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks.- It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak.- Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads-on without gasket. =0A-=0AIf I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water a bsorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas wi thout it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.=0A-=0ADoes an yone have a link to info on-Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?- Hear-sa y is all I've heard so far.--=0A-=0ATracy- (going flying come what may)=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss =0A=0ATim,=0A-EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. C ontact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use.=0ACharlie Kuss=0APS I try to avoid ethanol in my ca r, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it.=0A=0A=0Asnipped=0A> I n Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not=0A> alco hol was present. -Within the last month, pumps started sporting a=0A=0A ====0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:42 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Another option to Proseal (polysulfide) is fluorosilicone sealant. I used D ow Corning 730 solvent resistant sealant on my wing inspection plates and f uel gauge sender plates. It has held up well on the aircraft over four year s and the test sample ( two aluminum pieces bonded together submerged in 10 0LL for eight years) still looks good. The resistance to methanol is 0.7 % volume swell with -3 points change in durometer hardness. Dale Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? He ar-say is all I've heard so far. Tracy (going flying come what may) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:31 PM PST US From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Looking to the future... I have finished my wings and prosealed everything in the tanks. If we are eventually faced with the ethanol mix in the gas, what things need to change in the construction of the fuselage and engine to handle it? I have just started working on my fuselage. Smitty http://SmittysRV.com Original Message: ----------------- From: scott bilinski rv8a2001@yahoo.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? I called the company on my can of Pro-Seal (Flamemaster?)and was told alcohol, auto fuel, JetA, and 100LLis a non issue. Scott RV-8a ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Crook Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:39:12 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with the hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant materials.That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheadson without gasket. If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. Does anyone have a link to info onProseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? Hear-say is all I've heard so far. Tracy (going flying come what may) On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss wrote: Tim, EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use. Charlie Kuss PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it. snipped > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a == -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:03 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Tracy Crook wrote: snip > Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? > Hear-say is all I've heard so far. The only 'real' info I have is from my Grumman Gang ...... the AA-5Xs use proseal in the wet wing much like the RVs. They do leak over time, and in repairing a leaking wing they noticed that the proseal was 'soft' ..... which is good when you're trying to clean the old proseal to fix a leak ..... but not a good thing for the whole tank at once. The owner had used mogas ...... with alcohol as it turned out ..... A definitive point? No, but that's enough info for me. The next time somebody mixes up a batch of proseal, put a dab in some denatured alcohol and let us know what happens. Pure alcohol would be worse on the proseal than rubbing alcohol, I think. Linn > > Tracy (going flying come what may) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:18 PM PST US From: JFLEISC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? In a message dated 6/5/2008 2:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tracy@rotaryaviation.com writes: Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with the hand fate deals us. Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant materials. That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there. So far I have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks. It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak. Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket. If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol? Hear-say is all I've heard so far. I've been using premium auto fuel w/alcohol for about 5+ years in my -4. My 0-360 likes it better than avgas (in both winter and summer). Less fouling and little to no buildup on the exhaust valves. It has been deteriorating the Proseal in the tanks though. Tough call since my left tank was never built right in the first place (bad leaks). Signs of possible leakage on the right. I noticed that on the PPG site the data sheet on the most common Proseal (I forget the number. what 'Spruce sells) has no mention of alcohol resistance. Their Proseal #PS-890 series, however, specifically states 'excellent resistance to....alcohol...). That is what I'll be trying as I reseal my tanks. Will probably not know if it works for another 5 years or so. Jim **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:54 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What? Note that the ASTM std they chose does permit alcohol. Also beware that mogas is a solvent for at least the older varieties of PRC sealant. Some folks that tried using it in older Mooneys soon developed significant fuel leaks. Brian Meyette wrote: > > The problem I see with this is that it seems to be getting more & more > difficult find auto fuel that isnt at least 10% ethanol > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Vanremog@aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:40 AM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV-List: Say What? > > > > Lycoming announces this. > > > > Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term > availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines > **announced** > > this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded > automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and > IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, > told /AVweb/ the approval will not require any modification to the > engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, > and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's > essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He > expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot > implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is > up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how > long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork > issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI > automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM > D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, > but users must verify that they are getting that particular type -- > not just any unleaded auto gas will do. > > The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and > provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the > continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The > popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, > including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more. > > This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? > > > > > > *N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.