Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:13 AM - Lycomings and auto fuel. (jakent@unison.ie)
2. 04:53 AM - Re: Lycomings and auto fuel. (RV6 Flyer)
3. 05:50 AM - Re: Say What? (Tim Bryan)
4. 06:01 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Tim Bryan)
5. 06:08 AM - Ethanol (Charles Heathco)
6. 07:02 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Dale Ensing)
7. 07:35 AM - Re: Ethanol (Ralph E. Capen)
8. 08:14 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (glen matejcek)
9. 08:38 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Charles Kuss)
10. 10:45 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (smitty@smittysrv.com)
11. 01:23 PM - Re: Ethanol (JFLEISC@aol.com)
12. 01:47 PM - Re: Ethanol (JFLEISC@aol.com)
13. 02:02 PM - Re: Ethanol (linn Walters)
14. 02:22 PM - Re: Ethanol (Steven Reynard)
15. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Tracy Crook)
16. 06:21 PM - Re: Say What? (John Cox)
17. 07:28 PM - Re: Say What? (Charlie England)
18. 07:29 PM - Re: Ethanol (Charlie England)
19. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Charlie England)
20. 07:53 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper))
21. 09:55 PM - Re: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Kelly McMullen)
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Subject: | Lycomings and auto fuel. |
How about the O-320 and IO-320 ? Will they be included?
John Kent EI-DIY (RV-4)
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Subject: | Lycomings and auto fuel. |
The TCDS (Type Certificate Data Sheet) E-274 already lists many of the O-320 160
HP engines as certificated on "91/96" "Minimum grade aviation gasoline" with
a note to "See latest revision of Lycoming Service Instruction 1070 for alternate
fuel grades".
These engines were certificated on a lower octane fuel than were the 360 engines.
Once they get the longer stroke same bore engines out of the way, it should
be easy for them to follow on with the 320 engines.
See TCDS E-286 for info on the 180 HP 360 engines.
The FAA listing of TCDS can be found at:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
2,100 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
----------------------------------------
> From: jakent@unison.ie
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:09:37 -0400
> Subject: RV-List: Lycomings and auto fuel.
>
>
> How about the O-320 and IO-320 ? Will they be included?
> John Kent EI-DIY (RV-4)
>
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Message 3
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Hi Linn,
Great info to ponder, Thanks for your comments!
Do Not Archive
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TB almost 100 hours now
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What?
Tim Bryan wrote:
Hi Jim,
I'm not Jim, but like him have been a mogas user for years.
I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in your
RV-6.
I use mogas in my AA-1B (O-235-C2C) and my Pitts (O-360-A4A). It was
economics in the AA-1B, but it was the lead fouling problem in the Pitts.
For 13 years I hand-propped the Pitts, and lead fouling meant far more
exercise.
Do you check for ethanol first?
In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not alcohol
was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a placard that
said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means we have to test
for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular ..... both planes
will run on regular, but the Pitts will ping on it when the engine gets hot
during aerobatics so I typically use high test ....... and there's alcohol,
I can put in my vehicle and search elsewhere. If I'm looking for high test,
then I'll just have to pay the few pennies for the fuel I tested. Gonna
look funny on the credit card.
To further make my life miserable, our governor is working on a bill to
mandate the use of alcohol. Crap!!!
Are you using premium?
Only in the Pitts.
Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to use
this without concern?
There should always be concern. Early on (in the early 80's) before the
signage requirement, I got some alcohol laced mogas that went into the
Pitts. It has a PS-5 pressure carburetor that operates on pressure
differences on many diaphragms. The alcohol ate the old black diaphragms
causing them to crack and leak. After spending a lot of my mogas money on
the rebuild (with red silicone diaphragms) the alcohol problem went away
..... until now.
I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to be
comfortable using auto fuel.
Jim will have to reply to that one (RV-6), but you need to do the soul
searching yourself. In this case your mileage MAY differ. I've known some
RV pilots that had issues with vapor pressure in THEIR airplane. I've known
a whole lot more with NO issues with mogas.
I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy.
I think this discussion should be left to the forum. There are a lot more
mogas users out there with experience and opinions that are invaluable in
this discussion. I hope they chime in.
As an aside, the STCs in place for the certified aircraft prohibit alcohol
in the mogas (and Lycoming does too in its new press release) for good
reason. It attacks rubber and is corrosive to aluminum (and will soften
proseal over time). How corrosive I don't know. Hell, air is corrosive to
aluminum!!! Without alcohol (in the fuel, of course!), I have no qualms
about using it ...... and will probably experiment with high test in my
RV-10 when it flies.
Best of luck Tim ..... and we're all gonna need it in the fuel wars ......
Linn ..... just one data point
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
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Subject: | Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Hi Charlie,
Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel supply with a baby
bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is this an affective
way to do it?
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TB almost 100 hours now
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
>
>
> Tim,
> EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol
> test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA
> by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and
> easy to use.
> Charlie Kuss
> PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in
> MPG with it.
>
>
> snipped
> > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
> > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
> > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means
> > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular
> snipped
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in
Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a (150hp)
has always been on low oct mogas exept for tank of 100ll in warm months
because of vapor lock. I had to go to LL couple months ago as my usual
place to fill my cans came out with pix of corncobs hanging on pump,
sporting the words "enhanced" with ethanol, whattacrockl! Im afraid
everybody going to it and not all telling about it. Testing for it, you
find it, then what? Several myths about fuel usage, anyone have a line
on what this eathonol can REALY harm? Charlie heathco Fayetteville Ar.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
That's the way we did it before the kits were introduced. I used an olive
jar with line drawn on side with a Sharpe. You just need to be able to see
if the "water line" has risen after adding the fuel. The ethanol in the fuel
will mix with the water increasing its volume.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:57 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel supply with a
> baby
> bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is this an affective
> way to do it?
>
> Tim Bryan
> RV-6 Flying
> N616TB almost 100 hours now
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss
>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
>>
>>
>> Tim,
>> EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol
>> test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA
>> by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and
>> easy to use.
>> Charlie Kuss
>> PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease
>> in
>> MPG with it.
>>
>>
>> snipped
>> > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
>> > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
>> > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means
>> > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular
>> snipped
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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|
An alternative question.....
Would those that are using ethanol enhanced car gas in their RV anyway admit to
it and let us know the conditions under which they are using it, the issues that
they have had and what they use as their limitations...???
For instance, we've read that ethanol doesn't degrade proseal or viton seals.
I've been told that my injection system will not be damaged by it. The main issues
that I see remaining are water freezing (blocking the fuel system) and water
not igniting (when it gets into the combustion chamber - both of which could
be eliminated by sumping the tanks and not flying to freezing conditions.
I'm not flying yet and don't know enough about this stuff to experiment myself
either. I'm just thinking that there may be usability under certain conditions.....
My .02.....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Heathco <cheathco@cox.net>
>Sent: Jun 6, 2008 9:05 AM
>To: rv-list <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: Ethanol
>
>So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl that
mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a (150hp) has always
been on low oct mogas exept for tank of 100ll in warm months because of vapor
lock. I had to go to LL couple months ago as my usual place to fill my cans came
out with pix of corncobs hanging on pump, sporting the words "enhanced" with
ethanol, whattacrockl! Im afraid everybody going to it and not all telling
about it. Testing for it, you find it, then what? Several myths about fuel usage,
anyone have a line on what this eathonol can REALY harm? Charlie heathco Fayetteville
Ar.
Message 8
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Subject: | RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Hi Tracy-
How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and what effect
does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?
Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of alcohol in the
fuel on tite-seal?
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
> From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
>
> If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed
by
> ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it
or
> add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
>
> Tracy (going flying come what may)
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Tim,
As Dale mentioned earlier, you want to note if the volume of the water increases
after adding the gasoline. The method you describe should work. The "kit" is
basically a plastic test tube with graduations on it to show the percent of
ethanol (if any) in the fuel. Any graduated, tall, thin container would work.
Charlie
--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim Bryan <n616tb@btsapps.com> wrote:
> From: Tim Bryan <n616tb@btsapps.com>
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:57 AM
> <n616tb@btsapps.com>
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel
> supply with a baby
> bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is
> this an affective
> way to do it?
>
> Tim Bryan
> RV-6 Flying
> N616TB almost 100 hours now
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss
> > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was
> Say What?
> >
> <chaskuss@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Tim,
> > EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were
> offering ethanol
> > test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail
> shipping. Contact the EAA
> > by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits.
> It's simple and
> > easy to use.
> > Charlie Kuss
> > PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more
> than a 3% decrease in
> > MPG with it.
> >
> >
> > snipped
> > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to
> post whether or not
> > > alcohol was present. Within the last month,
> pumps started sporting a
> > > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or
> less ethanol". Which means
> > > we have to test for it. This is problematic for
> me. If I test regular
> > snipped
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
I read somewhere that you mark a line on a tall test tube (or any other
kind of tube) at the lower end, at the 25% point of the total capacity of
the test tube. Then put water in the test tube up to that mark. Then fill
the rest of the tube with mogas. Shake the tube vigirously and let it sit
for a few minutes. Then go back and see if the water rises above the 25%
mark.
Smitty
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Charles Kuss chaskuss@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
Tim,
As Dale mentioned earlier, you want to note if the volume of the water
increases after adding the gasoline. The method you describe should work.
The "kit" is basically a plastic test tube with graduations on it to show
the percent of ethanol (if any) in the fuel. Any graduated, tall, thin
container would work.
Charlie
--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim Bryan <n616tb@btsapps.com> wrote:
> From: Tim Bryan <n616tb@btsapps.com>
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:57 AM
> <n616tb@btsapps.com>
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel
> supply with a baby
> bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is
> this an affective
> way to do it?
>
> Tim Bryan
> RV-6 Flying
> N616TB almost 100 hours now
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss
> > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was
> Say What?
> >
> <chaskuss@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Tim,
> > EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were
> offering ethanol
> > test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail
> shipping. Contact the EAA
> > by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits.
> It's simple and
> > easy to use.
> > Charlie Kuss
> > PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more
> than a 3% decrease in
> > MPG with it.
> >
> >
> > snipped
> > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to
> post whether or not
> > > alcohol was present. Within the last month,
> pumps started sporting a
> > > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or
> less ethanol". Which means
> > > we have to test for it. This is problematic for
> me. If I test regular
> > snipped
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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In a message dated 6/6/2008 9:10:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
cheathco@cox.net writes:
So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl
that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a
It did swell my 'O' ring on the tank cap (RV-4). Switched to Buna-n and
haven't had the problem. Have had the Carb apart and everything looked like new
inside.
Jim
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 12
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In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:36:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
recapen@earthlink.net writes:
Would those that are using ethanol enhanced car gas in their RV anyway admit
to it and let us know the conditions under which they are using it, the
issues that they have had and what they use as their limitations...???
For instance, we've read that ethanol doesn't degrade proseal or viton
seals. I've been told that my injection system will not be damaged by it. The
main issues that I see remaining are water freezing (blocking the fuel system)
and water not igniting (when it gets into the combustion chamber - both of
which could be eliminated by sumping the tanks and not flying to freezing
conditions.
Been using it for 5 to 6 years now. I think it did degrade my Proseal but
that stuff was nearly 20 years old and I hear say the newer blend doesn't
degrade. All other seals except the Vans gas cap 'O' ring seem OK. During my 28
years as an auto mechanic we commonly poured isopropyl alcohol into the gas
tanks of cars to prevent gas line freezing so go figure. I have flown the RV
regularly on 10 degree (at ground level) winter days and the only thing that
froze was me.
Jim
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 13
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Ralph E. Capen wrote:
>
> An alternative question.....
>
> Would those that are using ethanol enhanced car gas in their RV anyway admit
to it and let us know the conditions under which they are using it, the issues
that they have had and what they use as their limitations...???
>
Good one! Experience, not urban legend would be a boon!
> For instance, we've read that ethanol doesn't degrade proseal
I've seen it both ways ..... the difference could be how well and how
exact the proseal proportions were, and the temp under which it cured
.... there are quite a few variables when talking proseal.
> or viton seals.
Viton seals seem to stand up under pretty much anything we'll ever toss
at them.
> I've been told that my injection system will not be damaged by it.
Again, too many variables .... type of controller, types of the seals
etc. ..... My initiation was expensive ..... a rebuilt PS-5C carb.
However, I've heard that the alcohols are also corrosive to aluminum
..... the injector lines are usually stainless steel, but the spider is
aluminum. I have no clue how corrosive it is ..... kinda like the
'causes cancer in lab rats' syndrome ..... maybe pure alcohol is
corrosive to aluminum, but 10% is a non-issue.
> The main issues that I see remaining are water freezing (blocking the fuel
system) and water not igniting (when it gets into the combustion chamber - both
of which could be eliminated by sumping the tanks and not flying to freezing
conditions.
>
For y'all up nawth ..... that use mogas additive to collect the water
and avoid the freezing thingy ..... isn't it mainly alcohol???? Don't
cars see temps far below freezing with no problems .... as long as they
have the 'gas anti freeze'??? I've lived in the south so long I've
forgotten what we called that stuff!!! ;-)
> I'm not flying yet and don't know enough about this stuff to experiment myself
either. I'm just thinking that there may be usability under certain conditions.....
>
I tend to agree. I think the aircraft problems had to do with natural
rubber in hoses and seals ..... which cannot stand up to the alcohol. I
doubt that anything built in the not-to-distant-past still has issues
with alcohol. Unfortunately, in this instance we're all test pilots
..... and the possible failures ..... leaks ..... might be expensive to
remedy. By the time I get to actually deciding on which way to go .....
fuel will probably be like avionics ...... a whole different ballgame.
Linn
do not archive
> My .02.....
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Charles Heathco <cheathco@cox.net>
>> Sent: Jun 6, 2008 9:05 AM
>> To: rv-list <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RV-List: Ethanol
>>
>> So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl
that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a (150hp) has always
been on low oct mogas exept for tank of 100ll in warm months because of vapor
lock. I had to go to LL couple months ago as my usual place to fill my cans
came out with pix of corncobs hanging on pump, sporting the words "enhanced" with
ethanol, whattacrockl! Im afraid everybody going to it and not all telling
about it. Testing for it, you find it, then what? Several myths about fuel usage,
anyone have a line on what this eathonol can REALY harm? Charlie heathco
Fayetteville Ar.
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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> degrade. All other seals except the Vans gas cap 'O' ring seem OK. During my
> 28 years as an auto mechanic we commonly poured isopropyl alcohol into the
> gas tanks of cars to prevent gas line freezing so go figure. I have flown
> the RV regularly on 10 degree (at ground level) winter days and the only
> thing that froze was me.
>
> Jim
>
>
When I was stationed in Korea, we used to add a 5 gallons of denatured
alcohol to our tanks (M60A3) to prevent freezing. About the only
effect I noticed was frozen drool from the guys looking at all that
alcohol going to waste. . . .
Steve
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which separates
out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and this solution is
no longer prone to freezing. The gas line antifreeze stuff found in
northern autoparts stores is basically acetone. You might refer to the
directions on those bottles to see how much to add to your gas.
I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank sealants
are. It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was once (but no
longer) used in Van's tanks.
Tracy
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> Hi Tracy-
>
> How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and what effect
> does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?
>
> Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of alcohol in the
> fuel on tite-seal?
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net
>
>
> > From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
> >
> > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed
> by
> > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it
> or
> > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
> >
> > Tracy (going flying come what may)
> >
>
>
Message 16
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No, ethanol additions will undermine the effort.
John Cox
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Vanremog@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:40 PM
Subject: RV-List: Say What?
Lycoming announces this.
Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term
availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced
<http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-06-02-08
.jsp> this week that it is working to get approval for the use of
unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360
and IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming
Engines, told AVweb the approval will not require any modification to
the engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment,
and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's
essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects
to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement
the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is up to the
manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long that would
take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines
will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas,
designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.).
This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify
that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto
gas will do.
The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides
an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use
of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and
IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas,
Mooneys, Diamonds, and more.
This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy?
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
________________________________
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler
Florence" on AOL Food
<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000
2>
.
Message 17
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What many people want is for some 'authority' to tell them that 'x' has
been tested & it's either ok or not. Unfortunately, all we can get in
the short term is anecdotes (data points with incomplete info on the
parameters).
Point: The same authority (Lyc) that spent the last 3 decades telling us
that mogas will kill us all is suddenly, with clear knowledge of the
risk of lawsuits, telling us that it's perfectly ok. (Kinda makes you
feel like the runup to the Iraq war...)
Point: Several corn belt RV's have been flying with supposedly stock
lycs on almost pure ethanol for many years (over a decade, I think).
Point: In 1990, I visited a small airport across the river from Natchez
MS in the 160HP Thorp T-18 I owned at the time. When I asked for fuel,
the lineman asked if I wanted avgas or mogas. I said that since I had
the 160 hp engine, I'd better get avgas. He responded that he'd been
feeding his 160 hp Tripacer a steady diet of mogas for at least a decade
with no problems.
Point: A few times in the past, I've run mogas regular in my current 160
hp RV-4 when we were out of avgas on the field. The plane has limited
engine instrumentation, but it seemed to run with noticeably higher CHT
& oil temp and I could never get totally comfortable with how it 'felt'
at cruise.
Point: During one of our more recent outages, I decided to try mogas
premium, 1st mixed with avgas & eventually just the premium mogas. The
engine runs *much* better on premium mogas. With avgas, plugs are fouled
at every startup. (Sub-data point: I lean aggressively & consistently as
soon as I pull power back after climbout.) With premium, plugs are
always clean at startup. (This is a 1700hr+ SMOH engine with compression
in the high 70's but blowing about 1 qt of oil past the chrome
cylinders & out the breather every 3 hrs.) It runs great! No
intermittent 'auto-rough' like I get on avgas. No noticeable evidence of
running hot. The only problem is that premium is pushing $4.20/gal now &
we have a 10,000 gallon supply of avgas that was mistakenly delivered to
a neighbor's ag operation at $3.60/gal. What's a mother to do??
Hope these data points are helpful.
Charlie
Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Hi Linn,
>
>
>
> Great info to ponder, Thanks for your comments!
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
> **Tim Bryan**
>
> **RV-6 Flying**
>
> **N616TB almost 100 hours now**
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *linn Walters
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:42 AM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Say What?
>
>
>
> Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> I'm not Jim, but like him have been a mogas user for years.
>
> I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in
> your RV-6.
>
> I use mogas in my AA-1B (O-235-C2C) and my Pitts (O-360-A4A). It was
> economics in the AA-1B, but it was the lead fouling problem in the
> Pitts. For 13 years I hand-propped the Pitts, and lead fouling meant
> far more exercise.
>
> Do you check for ethanol first?
>
> In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not
> alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a
> placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means
> we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test
> regular ..... both planes will run on regular, but the Pitts will ping
> on it when the engine gets hot during aerobatics so I typically use
> high test ....... and there's alcohol, I can put in my vehicle and
> search elsewhere. If I'm looking for high test, then I'll just have
> to pay the few pennies for the fuel I tested. Gonna look funny on the
> credit card.
>
> To further make my life miserable, our governor is working on a bill
> to mandate the use of alcohol. Crap!!!
>
> Are you using premium?
>
> Only in the Pitts.
>
> Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to
> use this without concern?
>
> There should always be concern. Early on (in the early 80's) before
> the signage requirement, I got some alcohol laced mogas that went into
> the Pitts. It has a PS-5 pressure carburetor that operates on
> pressure differences on many diaphragms. The alcohol ate the old
> black diaphragms causing them to crack and leak. After spending a lot
> of my mogas money on the rebuild (with red silicone diaphragms) the
> alcohol problem went away ..... until now.
>
> I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to
> be comfortable using auto fuel.
>
> Jim will have to reply to that one (RV-6), but you need to do the soul
> searching yourself. In this case your mileage MAY differ. I've known
> some RV pilots that had issues with vapor pressure in THEIR airplane.
> I've known a whole lot more with NO issues with mogas.
>
> I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy.
>
> I think this discussion should be left to the forum. There are a lot
> more mogas users out there with experience and opinions that are
> invaluable in this discussion. I hope they chime in.
>
> As an aside, the STCs in place for the certified aircraft prohibit
> alcohol in the mogas (and Lycoming does too in its new press release)
> for good reason. It attacks rubber and is corrosive to aluminum (and
> will soften proseal over time). How corrosive I don't know. Hell,
> air is corrosive to aluminum!!! Without alcohol (in the fuel, of
> course!), I have no qualms about using it ...... and will probably
> experiment with high test in my RV-10 when it flies.
>
> Best of luck Tim ..... and we're all gonna need it in the fuel wars
> ......
> Linn ..... just one data point
>
>
>
> **Tim Bryan**
>
> **RV-6 Flying**
>
>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List*
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> **
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
>
Message 18
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JFLEISC@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/6/2008 9:10:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> cheathco@cox.net writes:
>
> So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by
> A&P in Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my
> 6a
>
> It did swell my 'O' ring on the tank cap (RV-4). Switched to Buna-n
> and haven't had the problem. Have had the Carb apart and everything
> looked like new inside.
>
> Jim
The additives in non-alcoholic mogas will cause the old original o-rings
to swell, also. That's the only noticeable side effect of running
non-alcoholic premium mogas that I've noticed.
As Jim says, there's a simple cure. It would probably be wise to check
any 'rubber' gascolator gaskets, etc, also.
Lots of older (20+ years) sealant wasn't alcohol resistant. Most of the
newer stuff I've researched is rated on the data sheets to resist
alcohol & 'all current additives in automotive & aviation fuels'. The
place to go for reliable info is straight to the sealant manufacturer.
Charlie
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
Data point: Flamemaster now offers a pour able sealant (not polysulfide
but compatible with it) that is rated to be resistant to all current
fuel additives, including alcohol. If anyone needs the p/n, let me know
& I'll look in the fridge in the hangar to get it for you.
Charlie
Tracy Crook wrote:
> My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which
> separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and
> this solution is no longer prone to freezing. The gas line
> antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically
> acetone. You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see
> how much to add to your gas.
>
> I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank
> sealants are. It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was
> once (but no longer) used in Van's tanks.
>
> Tracy
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek
> <aerobubba@earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
> <aerobubba@earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba@earthlink.net>>
>
> Hi Tracy-
>
> How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and
> what effect
> does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?
>
> Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of
> alcohol in the
> fuel on tite-seal?
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>
>
> > From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com
> <mailto:tracy@rotaryaviation.com>>
> >
> > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water
> absorbed
> by
> > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas
> without it
> or
> > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
>
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
The reluctance to approve motor vehicle gasoline may be concerns for
vaporizing at higher altitudes.
When I worked for Union Oil Company back in the 1970's I questioned our
Commercial Sales Engineer from the Brea Research Center about using
aviation gasoline from the airport in a friend's Late Model Sportsman
stock car's Chevy 350 engine.
He said it would work fine, however it could be hard to start when cold
due to having fewer "light ends" (such as butane, propane, pentane)
which provide easy cold weather starting. These are seasonally blended
out in summer months to prevent vapor lock when cold starting is not a
problem and higher BTUs from heavier distillation cuts (down towards
diesel) provide better mileage for summer vacations.
Having been out of the oil industry since 1984, I have no idea what
ethanol does to the high altitude performance.
Pete Cowper
RV-8 #81139 (working on top of fuselage now)
Visalia, California
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? |
First of all, ethanol with water in it burns just fine. Try lighting a
little brandy or rum and you will see what I mean. Drinking alcohol is
only 40 to 50 percent ethanol, the rest water and flavor. What is put
in gasoline is 99.94 percent ethanol, no moisture. Ethanol does not
phase separate unless you get it nearly saturated with water, AND you
have very cold temps. You will never have fuel line freezing with mogas
that has ethanol. Just as good as the HEET and other gas dry products.
The aromatics in mogas and ethanol are hard on some brands and vintage
of Proseal and will turn it to goo.
They also tend to dry out and harden old fuel system O rings and such.
Tracy Crook wrote:
> My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which
> separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and
> this solution is no longer prone to freezing. The gas line
> antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically
> acetone. You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see
> how much to add to your gas.
>
> I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank
> sealants are. It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was
> once (but no longer) used in Van's tanks.
>
> Tracy
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek
> <aerobubba@earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
> <aerobubba@earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba@earthlink.net>>
>
> Hi Tracy-
>
> How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and
> what effect
> does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?
>
> Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of
> alcohol in the
> fuel on tite-seal?
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>
>
> > From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com
> <mailto:tracy@rotaryaviation.com>>
> >
> > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water
> absorbed
> by
> > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas
> without it
> or
> > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
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