---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/06/08: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:13 AM - Lycomings and auto fuel. (jakent@unison.ie) 2. 04:53 AM - Re: Lycomings and auto fuel. (RV6 Flyer) 3. 05:50 AM - Re: Say What? (Tim Bryan) 4. 06:01 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Tim Bryan) 5. 06:08 AM - Ethanol (Charles Heathco) 6. 07:02 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Dale Ensing) 7. 07:35 AM - Re: Ethanol (Ralph E. Capen) 8. 08:14 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (glen matejcek) 9. 08:38 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Charles Kuss) 10. 10:45 AM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (smitty@smittysrv.com) 11. 01:23 PM - Re: Ethanol (JFLEISC@aol.com) 12. 01:47 PM - Re: Ethanol (JFLEISC@aol.com) 13. 02:02 PM - Re: Ethanol (linn Walters) 14. 02:22 PM - Re: Ethanol (Steven Reynard) 15. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Tracy Crook) 16. 06:21 PM - Re: Say What? (John Cox) 17. 07:28 PM - Re: Say What? (Charlie England) 18. 07:29 PM - Re: Ethanol (Charlie England) 19. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Charlie England) 20. 07:53 PM - Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper)) 21. 09:55 PM - Re: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:47 AM PST US From: "jakent@unison.ie" Subject: RV-List: Lycomings and auto fuel. How about the O-320 and IO-320 ? Will they be included? John Kent EI-DIY (RV-4) -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:43 AM PST US From: RV6 Flyer Subject: RE: RV-List: Lycomings and auto fuel. The TCDS (Type Certificate Data Sheet) E-274 already lists many of the O-320 160 HP engines as certificated on "91/96" "Minimum grade aviation gasoline" with a note to "See latest revision of Lycoming Service Instruction 1070 for alternate fuel grades". These engines were certificated on a lower octane fuel than were the 360 engines. Once they get the longer stroke same bore engines out of the way, it should be easy for them to follow on with the 320 engines. See TCDS E-286 for info on the 180 HP 360 engines. The FAA listing of TCDS can be found at: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 2,100 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA ---------------------------------------- > From: jakent@unison.ie > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:09:37 -0400 > Subject: RV-List: Lycomings and auto fuel. > > > How about the O-320 and IO-320 ? Will they be included? > John Kent EI-DIY (RV-4) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft > Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:25 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Say What? Hi Linn, Great info to ponder, Thanks for your comments! Do Not Archive Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB almost 100 hours now _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What? Tim Bryan wrote: Hi Jim, I'm not Jim, but like him have been a mogas user for years. I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in your RV-6. I use mogas in my AA-1B (O-235-C2C) and my Pitts (O-360-A4A). It was economics in the AA-1B, but it was the lead fouling problem in the Pitts. For 13 years I hand-propped the Pitts, and lead fouling meant far more exercise. Do you check for ethanol first? In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular ..... both planes will run on regular, but the Pitts will ping on it when the engine gets hot during aerobatics so I typically use high test ....... and there's alcohol, I can put in my vehicle and search elsewhere. If I'm looking for high test, then I'll just have to pay the few pennies for the fuel I tested. Gonna look funny on the credit card. To further make my life miserable, our governor is working on a bill to mandate the use of alcohol. Crap!!! Are you using premium? Only in the Pitts. Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to use this without concern? There should always be concern. Early on (in the early 80's) before the signage requirement, I got some alcohol laced mogas that went into the Pitts. It has a PS-5 pressure carburetor that operates on pressure differences on many diaphragms. The alcohol ate the old black diaphragms causing them to crack and leak. After spending a lot of my mogas money on the rebuild (with red silicone diaphragms) the alcohol problem went away ..... until now. I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to be comfortable using auto fuel. Jim will have to reply to that one (RV-6), but you need to do the soul searching yourself. In this case your mileage MAY differ. I've known some RV pilots that had issues with vapor pressure in THEIR airplane. I've known a whole lot more with NO issues with mogas. I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy. I think this discussion should be left to the forum. There are a lot more mogas users out there with experience and opinions that are invaluable in this discussion. I hope they chime in. As an aside, the STCs in place for the certified aircraft prohibit alcohol in the mogas (and Lycoming does too in its new press release) for good reason. It attacks rubber and is corrosive to aluminum (and will soften proseal over time). How corrosive I don't know. Hell, air is corrosive to aluminum!!! Without alcohol (in the fuel, of course!), I have no qualms about using it ...... and will probably experiment with high test in my RV-10 when it flies. Best of luck Tim ..... and we're all gonna need it in the fuel wars ...... Linn ..... just one data point Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:19 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Hi Charlie, Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel supply with a baby bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is this an affective way to do it? Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB almost 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? > > > Tim, > EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol > test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA > by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and > easy to use. > Charlie Kuss > PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in > MPG with it. > > > snipped > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not > > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a > > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means > > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular > snipped > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:32 AM PST US From: "Charles Heathco" Subject: RV-List: Ethanol So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a (150hp) has always been on low oct mogas exept for tank of 100ll in warm months because of vapor lock. I had to go to LL couple months ago as my usual place to fill my cans came out with pix of corncobs hanging on pump, sporting the words "enhanced" with ethanol, whattacrockl! Im afraid everybody going to it and not all telling about it. Testing for it, you find it, then what? Several myths about fuel usage, anyone have a line on what this eathonol can REALY harm? Charlie heathco Fayetteville Ar. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:03 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? That's the way we did it before the kits were introduced. I used an olive jar with line drawn on side with a Sharpe. You just need to be able to see if the "water line" has risen after adding the fuel. The ethanol in the fuel will mix with the water increasing its volume. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bryan" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? > > Hi Charlie, > > Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel supply with a > baby > bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is this an affective > way to do it? > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Flying > N616TB almost 100 hours now > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss >> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? >> >> >> Tim, >> EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol >> test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA >> by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and >> easy to use. >> Charlie Kuss >> PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease >> in >> MPG with it. >> >> >> snipped >> > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not >> > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a >> > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means >> > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test regular >> snipped >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:11 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Ethanol An alternative question..... Would those that are using ethanol enhanced car gas in their RV anyway admit to it and let us know the conditions under which they are using it, the issues that they have had and what they use as their limitations...??? For instance, we've read that ethanol doesn't degrade proseal or viton seals. I've been told that my injection system will not be damaged by it. The main issues that I see remaining are water freezing (blocking the fuel system) and water not igniting (when it gets into the combustion chamber - both of which could be eliminated by sumping the tanks and not flying to freezing conditions. I'm not flying yet and don't know enough about this stuff to experiment myself either. I'm just thinking that there may be usability under certain conditions..... My .02..... -----Original Message----- >From: Charles Heathco >Sent: Jun 6, 2008 9:05 AM >To: rv-list >Subject: RV-List: Ethanol > >So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a (150hp) has always been on low oct mogas exept for tank of 100ll in warm months because of vapor lock. I had to go to LL couple months ago as my usual place to fill my cans came out with pix of corncobs hanging on pump, sporting the words "enhanced" with ethanol, whattacrockl! Im afraid everybody going to it and not all telling about it. Testing for it, you find it, then what? Several myths about fuel usage, anyone have a line on what this eathonol can REALY harm? Charlie heathco Fayetteville Ar. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:12 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: RV-List: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Hi Tracy- How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and what effect does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal? Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of alcohol in the fuel on tite-seal? glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net > From: "Tracy Crook" > > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. > > Tracy (going flying come what may) > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:35 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Tim, As Dale mentioned earlier, you want to note if the volume of the water increases after adding the gasoline. The method you describe should work. The "kit" is basically a plastic test tube with graduations on it to show the percent of ethanol (if any) in the fuel. Any graduated, tall, thin container would work. Charlie --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim Bryan wrote: > From: Tim Bryan > Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:57 AM > > > Hi Charlie, > > Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel > supply with a baby > bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is > this an affective > way to do it? > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Flying > N616TB almost 100 hours now > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list- > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss > > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was > Say What? > > > > > > > Tim, > > EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were > offering ethanol > > test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail > shipping. Contact the EAA > > by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. > It's simple and > > easy to use. > > Charlie Kuss > > PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more > than a 3% decrease in > > MPG with it. > > > > > > snipped > > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to > post whether or not > > > alcohol was present. Within the last month, > pumps started sporting a > > > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or > less ethanol". Which means > > > we have to test for it. This is problematic for > me. If I test regular > > snipped > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:29 AM PST US From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? I read somewhere that you mark a line on a tall test tube (or any other kind of tube) at the lower end, at the 25% point of the total capacity of the test tube. Then put water in the test tube up to that mark. Then fill the rest of the tube with mogas. Shake the tube vigirously and let it sit for a few minutes. Then go back and see if the water rises above the 25% mark. Smitty Original Message: ----------------- From: Charles Kuss chaskuss@yahoo.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Tim, As Dale mentioned earlier, you want to note if the volume of the water increases after adding the gasoline. The method you describe should work. The "kit" is basically a plastic test tube with graduations on it to show the percent of ethanol (if any) in the fuel. Any graduated, tall, thin container would work. Charlie --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim Bryan wrote: > From: Tim Bryan > Subject: RE: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:57 AM > > > Hi Charlie, > > Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel > supply with a baby > bottle with some water in it to a line on the side. Is > this an affective > way to do it? > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Flying > N616TB almost 100 hours now > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list- > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss > > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:33 AM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was > Say What? > > > > > > > Tim, > > EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were > offering ethanol > > test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail > shipping. Contact the EAA > > by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. > It's simple and > > easy to use. > > Charlie Kuss > > PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more > than a 3% decrease in > > MPG with it. > > > > > > snipped > > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to > post whether or not > > > alcohol was present. Within the last month, > pumps started sporting a > > > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or > less ethanol". Which means > > > we have to test for it. This is problematic for > me. If I test regular > > snipped > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:14 PM PST US From: JFLEISC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Ethanol In a message dated 6/6/2008 9:10:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cheathco@cox.net writes: So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a It did swell my 'O' ring on the tank cap (RV-4). Switched to Buna-n and haven't had the problem. Have had the Carb apart and everything looked like new inside. Jim **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:08 PM PST US From: JFLEISC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Ethanol In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:36:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: Would those that are using ethanol enhanced car gas in their RV anyway admit to it and let us know the conditions under which they are using it, the issues that they have had and what they use as their limitations...??? For instance, we've read that ethanol doesn't degrade proseal or viton seals. I've been told that my injection system will not be damaged by it. The main issues that I see remaining are water freezing (blocking the fuel system) and water not igniting (when it gets into the combustion chamber - both of which could be eliminated by sumping the tanks and not flying to freezing conditions. Been using it for 5 to 6 years now. I think it did degrade my Proseal but that stuff was nearly 20 years old and I hear say the newer blend doesn't degrade. All other seals except the Vans gas cap 'O' ring seem OK. During my 28 years as an auto mechanic we commonly poured isopropyl alcohol into the gas tanks of cars to prevent gas line freezing so go figure. I have flown the RV regularly on 10 degree (at ground level) winter days and the only thing that froze was me. Jim **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:50 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Ethanol Ralph E. Capen wrote: > > An alternative question..... > > Would those that are using ethanol enhanced car gas in their RV anyway admit to it and let us know the conditions under which they are using it, the issues that they have had and what they use as their limitations...??? > Good one! Experience, not urban legend would be a boon! > For instance, we've read that ethanol doesn't degrade proseal I've seen it both ways ..... the difference could be how well and how exact the proseal proportions were, and the temp under which it cured .... there are quite a few variables when talking proseal. > or viton seals. Viton seals seem to stand up under pretty much anything we'll ever toss at them. > I've been told that my injection system will not be damaged by it. Again, too many variables .... type of controller, types of the seals etc. ..... My initiation was expensive ..... a rebuilt PS-5C carb. However, I've heard that the alcohols are also corrosive to aluminum ..... the injector lines are usually stainless steel, but the spider is aluminum. I have no clue how corrosive it is ..... kinda like the 'causes cancer in lab rats' syndrome ..... maybe pure alcohol is corrosive to aluminum, but 10% is a non-issue. > The main issues that I see remaining are water freezing (blocking the fuel system) and water not igniting (when it gets into the combustion chamber - both of which could be eliminated by sumping the tanks and not flying to freezing conditions. > For y'all up nawth ..... that use mogas additive to collect the water and avoid the freezing thingy ..... isn't it mainly alcohol???? Don't cars see temps far below freezing with no problems .... as long as they have the 'gas anti freeze'??? I've lived in the south so long I've forgotten what we called that stuff!!! ;-) > I'm not flying yet and don't know enough about this stuff to experiment myself either. I'm just thinking that there may be usability under certain conditions..... > I tend to agree. I think the aircraft problems had to do with natural rubber in hoses and seals ..... which cannot stand up to the alcohol. I doubt that anything built in the not-to-distant-past still has issues with alcohol. Unfortunately, in this instance we're all test pilots ..... and the possible failures ..... leaks ..... might be expensive to remedy. By the time I get to actually deciding on which way to go ..... fuel will probably be like avionics ...... a whole different ballgame. Linn do not archive > My .02..... > > -----Original Message----- > >> From: Charles Heathco >> Sent: Jun 6, 2008 9:05 AM >> To: rv-list >> Subject: RV-List: Ethanol >> >> So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by A&P in Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my 6a (150hp) has always been on low oct mogas exept for tank of 100ll in warm months because of vapor lock. I had to go to LL couple months ago as my usual place to fill my cans came out with pix of corncobs hanging on pump, sporting the words "enhanced" with ethanol, whattacrockl! Im afraid everybody going to it and not all telling about it. Testing for it, you find it, then what? Several myths about fuel usage, anyone have a line on what this eathonol can REALY harm? Charlie heathco Fayetteville Ar. >> > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:03 PM PST US From: "Steven Reynard" Subject: Re: RV-List: Ethanol > degrade. All other seals except the Vans gas cap 'O' ring seem OK. During my > 28 years as an auto mechanic we commonly poured isopropyl alcohol into the > gas tanks of cars to prevent gas line freezing so go figure. I have flown > the RV regularly on 10 degree (at ground level) winter days and the only > thing that froze was me. > > Jim > > When I was stationed in Korea, we used to add a 5 gallons of denatured alcohol to our tanks (M60A3) to prevent freezing. About the only effect I noticed was frozen drool from the guys looking at all that alcohol going to waste. . . . Steve ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:35 PM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and this solution is no longer prone to freezing. The gas line antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically acetone. You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see how much to add to your gas. I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank sealants are. It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was once (but no longer) used in Van's tanks. Tracy On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek wrote: > > Hi Tracy- > > How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and what effect > does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal? > > Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of alcohol in the > fuel on tite-seal? > > glen matejcek > aerobubba@earthlink.net > > > > From: "Tracy Crook" > > > > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed > by > > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it > or > > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. > > > > Tracy (going flying come what may) > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:45 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Say What? From: "John Cox" No, ethanol additions will undermine the effort. John Cox From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vanremog@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:40 PM Subject: RV-List: Say What? Lycoming announces this. Recognizing global concerns about the immediate and long-term availability of aviation-grade 100LL fuel, Lycoming Engines announced this week that it is working to get approval for the use of unleaded automotive gasoline for its standard-compression-ratio O-360 and IO-360 product lines. Ian Walsh, general manager for Lycoming Engines, told AVweb the approval will not require any modification to the engines, the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there will be no degradation in engine performance. "It's essentially a paperwork drill, to make this happen," he said. He expects to have approval from the FAA by this fall, but owners cannot implement the change until the airplane also gets certified. That is up to the manufacturers, Walsh said, and he could not estimate how long that would take, but said it is also essentially a paperwork issue. The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.). This fuel is not difficult to find, Walsh said, but users must verify that they are getting that particular type -- not just any unleaded auto gas will do. The unleaded automotive gas is generally cheaper than avgas and provides an alternative in areas where avgas is scarce. Also, the continuing use of leaded avgas provokes environmental concerns. The popular O-360 and IO-360 engines are found on many GA aircraft, including Cessnas, Mooneys, Diamonds, and more. This makes it sound like a slam dunk. Can it really be this easy? N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 895hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food .. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:58 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Say What? What many people want is for some 'authority' to tell them that 'x' has been tested & it's either ok or not. Unfortunately, all we can get in the short term is anecdotes (data points with incomplete info on the parameters). Point: The same authority (Lyc) that spent the last 3 decades telling us that mogas will kill us all is suddenly, with clear knowledge of the risk of lawsuits, telling us that it's perfectly ok. (Kinda makes you feel like the runup to the Iraq war...) Point: Several corn belt RV's have been flying with supposedly stock lycs on almost pure ethanol for many years (over a decade, I think). Point: In 1990, I visited a small airport across the river from Natchez MS in the 160HP Thorp T-18 I owned at the time. When I asked for fuel, the lineman asked if I wanted avgas or mogas. I said that since I had the 160 hp engine, I'd better get avgas. He responded that he'd been feeding his 160 hp Tripacer a steady diet of mogas for at least a decade with no problems. Point: A few times in the past, I've run mogas regular in my current 160 hp RV-4 when we were out of avgas on the field. The plane has limited engine instrumentation, but it seemed to run with noticeably higher CHT & oil temp and I could never get totally comfortable with how it 'felt' at cruise. Point: During one of our more recent outages, I decided to try mogas premium, 1st mixed with avgas & eventually just the premium mogas. The engine runs *much* better on premium mogas. With avgas, plugs are fouled at every startup. (Sub-data point: I lean aggressively & consistently as soon as I pull power back after climbout.) With premium, plugs are always clean at startup. (This is a 1700hr+ SMOH engine with compression in the high 70's but blowing about 1 qt of oil past the chrome cylinders & out the breather every 3 hrs.) It runs great! No intermittent 'auto-rough' like I get on avgas. No noticeable evidence of running hot. The only problem is that premium is pushing $4.20/gal now & we have a 10,000 gallon supply of avgas that was mistakenly delivered to a neighbor's ag operation at $3.60/gal. What's a mother to do?? Hope these data points are helpful. Charlie Tim Bryan wrote: > > Hi Linn, > > > > Great info to ponder, Thanks for your comments! > > Do Not Archive > > > > **Tim Bryan** > > **RV-6 Flying** > > **N616TB almost 100 hours now** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *linn Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:42 AM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Say What? > > > > Tim Bryan wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > I'm not Jim, but like him have been a mogas user for years. > > I would be interested to know what criteria you use for auto fuel in > your RV-6. > > I use mogas in my AA-1B (O-235-C2C) and my Pitts (O-360-A4A). It was > economics in the AA-1B, but it was the lead fouling problem in the > Pitts. For 13 years I hand-propped the Pitts, and lead fouling meant > far more exercise. > > Do you check for ethanol first? > > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not > alcohol was present. Within the last month, pumps started sporting a > placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means > we have to test for it. This is problematic for me. If I test > regular ..... both planes will run on regular, but the Pitts will ping > on it when the engine gets hot during aerobatics so I typically use > high test ....... and there's alcohol, I can put in my vehicle and > search elsewhere. If I'm looking for high test, then I'll just have > to pay the few pennies for the fuel I tested. Gonna look funny on the > credit card. > > To further make my life miserable, our governor is working on a bill > to mandate the use of alcohol. Crap!!! > > Are you using premium? > > Only in the Pitts. > > Did you do anything special to the tanks, lines, carb to be able to > use this without concern? > > There should always be concern. Early on (in the early 80's) before > the signage requirement, I got some alcohol laced mogas that went into > the Pitts. It has a PS-5 pressure carburetor that operates on > pressure differences on many diaphragms. The alcohol ate the old > black diaphragms causing them to crack and leak. After spending a lot > of my mogas money on the rebuild (with red silicone diaphragms) the > alcohol problem went away ..... until now. > > I am running only avgas in my RV-6 for 100 hours now but would love to > be comfortable using auto fuel. > > Jim will have to reply to that one (RV-6), but you need to do the soul > searching yourself. In this case your mileage MAY differ. I've known > some RV pilots that had issues with vapor pressure in THEIR airplane. > I've known a whole lot more with NO issues with mogas. > > I tried to take this off line, but it bounced back from your email addy. > > I think this discussion should be left to the forum. There are a lot > more mogas users out there with experience and opinions that are > invaluable in this discussion. I hope they chime in. > > As an aside, the STCs in place for the certified aircraft prohibit > alcohol in the mogas (and Lycoming does too in its new press release) > for good reason. It attacks rubber and is corrosive to aluminum (and > will soften proseal over time). How corrosive I don't know. Hell, > air is corrosive to aluminum!!! Without alcohol (in the fuel, of > course!), I have no qualms about using it ...... and will probably > experiment with high test in my RV-10 when it flies. > > Best of luck Tim ..... and we're all gonna need it in the fuel wars > ...... > Linn ..... just one data point > > > > **Tim Bryan** > > **RV-6 Flying** > > > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > ** > * * > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG. > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:12 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Ethanol JFLEISC@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/6/2008 9:10:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > cheathco@cox.net writes: > > So far no one weems to know what the ethanol harms. I was told by > A&P in Atl that mogas would eat up seals, havent found that, as my > 6a > > It did swell my 'O' ring on the tank cap (RV-4). Switched to Buna-n > and haven't had the problem. Have had the Carb apart and everything > looked like new inside. > > Jim The additives in non-alcoholic mogas will cause the old original o-rings to swell, also. That's the only noticeable side effect of running non-alcoholic premium mogas that I've noticed. As Jim says, there's a simple cure. It would probably be wise to check any 'rubber' gascolator gaskets, etc, also. Lots of older (20+ years) sealant wasn't alcohol resistant. Most of the newer stuff I've researched is rated on the data sheets to resist alcohol & 'all current additives in automotive & aviation fuels'. The place to go for reliable info is straight to the sealant manufacturer. Charlie ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:50 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? Data point: Flamemaster now offers a pour able sealant (not polysulfide but compatible with it) that is rated to be resistant to all current fuel additives, including alcohol. If anyone needs the p/n, let me know & I'll look in the fridge in the hangar to get it for you. Charlie Tracy Crook wrote: > My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which > separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and > this solution is no longer prone to freezing. The gas line > antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically > acetone. You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see > how much to add to your gas. > > I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank > sealants are. It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was > once (but no longer) used in Van's tanks. > > Tracy > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Tracy- > > How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and > what effect > does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal? > > Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of > alcohol in the > fuel on tite-seal? > > glen matejcek > aerobubba@earthlink.net > > > > From: "Tracy Crook" > > > > > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water > absorbed > by > > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas > without it > or > > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:31 PM PST US From: pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper) Subject: RV-List: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? The reluctance to approve motor vehicle gasoline may be concerns for vaporizing at higher altitudes. When I worked for Union Oil Company back in the 1970's I questioned our Commercial Sales Engineer from the Brea Research Center about using aviation gasoline from the airport in a friend's Late Model Sportsman stock car's Chevy 350 engine. He said it would work fine, however it could be hard to start when cold due to having fewer "light ends" (such as butane, propane, pentane) which provide easy cold weather starting. These are seasonally blended out in summer months to prevent vapor lock when cold starting is not a problem and higher BTUs from heavier distillation cuts (down towards diesel) provide better mileage for summer vacations. Having been out of the oil industry since 1984, I have no idea what ethanol does to the high altitude performance. Pete Cowper RV-8 #81139 (working on top of fuselage now) Visalia, California ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:48 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What? First of all, ethanol with water in it burns just fine. Try lighting a little brandy or rum and you will see what I mean. Drinking alcohol is only 40 to 50 percent ethanol, the rest water and flavor. What is put in gasoline is 99.94 percent ethanol, no moisture. Ethanol does not phase separate unless you get it nearly saturated with water, AND you have very cold temps. You will never have fuel line freezing with mogas that has ethanol. Just as good as the HEET and other gas dry products. The aromatics in mogas and ethanol are hard on some brands and vintage of Proseal and will turn it to goo. They also tend to dry out and harden old fuel system O rings and such. Tracy Crook wrote: > My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which > separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and > this solution is no longer prone to freezing. The gas line > antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically > acetone. You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see > how much to add to your gas. > > I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank > sealants are. It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was > once (but no longer) used in Van's tanks. > > Tracy > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Tracy- > > How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and > what effect > does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal? > > Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of > alcohol in the > fuel on tite-seal? > > glen matejcek > aerobubba@earthlink.net > > > > From: "Tracy Crook" > > > > > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water > absorbed > by > > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas > without it > or > > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem. > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.