---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/08/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:13 AM - pinholes (Mark Frederick) 2. 10:10 AM - () 3. 10:23 AM - Re: IO 360 A2B Questions (linn Walters) 4. 10:45 AM - Re: IO 360 A2B Questions (Tim Bryan) 5. 11:10 AM - Re: pinholes (tom sargent) 6. 12:03 PM - Re: IO 360 A2B Questions (Jack Hilditch) 7. 12:59 PM - Re: IO 360 A2B Questions (JFLEISC@aol.com) 8. 03:14 PM - Re: pinholes (Bob J.) 9. 03:25 PM - Re: IO 360 A2B Questions (Tim Bryan) 10. 08:37 PM - Re: UV SmoothPrime progress (tom sargent) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:00 AM PST US From: "Mark Frederick" Subject: RV-List: pinholes From: tom sargent Subject: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress I recently posted about having very spotty results with UV smooth prime. My trouble is that it usually dries with so much texture and tiny bubbles that I have to sand it all off to eliminate the texture, and I'm back where I started. I have read the instructions on the can, read the polyfiber web page and talked to their technical help (all of which is necessary since they don't list all the information in one place!). Hi fellas: We use a different procedure -- developed over years of fighting this dang pinhole issue. 1: clean the part thoroughly; let dry 2: dry sand with 150 grit 3: wipe off dust with dry paper towel Yes, you read it correctly. Leave the dust in the pinholes! 4: Spray with PPG DP-(XX)LF primer (we use the grey, generally); let dry 5: Fill any remaining pinholes with PPG sanding primer, P/N K38, applied non-reduced with a plastic bondo squeegee. Sand with 220. Wet sand is OK. The DP-LF primer is very hard, and the K38 is very soft. it is a slightly different grey, but applying over white might be a better idea so you can see what is happening. You may need to apply the K38 several times, depending on your talent with a bondo squeegee. 6: second coat of primer; let dry; final paint. This process will probably work with any urethane or epoxy primer, and any soft sanding primer, tho we use the PPG stuff. Remember that you are actually filling the holes with sanding dust, so don't be too agressive wiping the parts off! We also use the K38 along the rivet lines to reduce the ring around the rivet heads. Squeegee and sand as with the composite parts. Carry on! -- Cheers! Mark Frederick Team Rocket LP www.teamrocketaircraft.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:48 AM PST US ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:46 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions Tim Bryan wrote: > > I have run across an IO 360 A2B engine with about 850 hours on it. Original hours or majored?? If majored, how long ago. Lycomings guidelines are 2400 hours (I think on this engine) or 12 years. > It is a 1967 200 HP engine off a Beach Musketeer. > > I am wondering if someone could tell me if this would have a hollow > crankshaft to accept a constant speed prop? I can't. Lycoming may have a model list on their web site ..... > Also if the engine has been > sitting for awhile (not pickled but indoors) what could one expect the value > to be perhaps as a core. I've bought run-out engines in the $3000 to $4000 range ..... depending on HP and injected vs carb. For this one, something a little less than $4000. Linn > It has all the accessories on it including carb, > alternator, starter, mags, etc. > > I know there are lots of variables, but looking for an idea or approximate. > Thanks > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Flying > N616TB 100 hours now > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:29 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions Thanks Linn, I did find a 68 Super Musketeer III for sale with the same engine and a constant speed prop. I would guess that means this engine has the ability to do constant speed. Lycoming's site shows the Musketeer is the only airframe this engine was for. Somewhere I had seen a chart showing what each part of the model designation stood for. I cannot find this, so if anybody could point me to this, I would appreciate it. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 12:19 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions > > > Tim Bryan wrote: > > > > I have run across an IO 360 A2B engine with about 850 hours on it. > Original hours or majored?? If majored, how long ago. Lycomings > guidelines are 2400 hours (I think on this engine) or 12 years. > > It is a 1967 200 HP engine off a Beach Musketeer. > > > > I am wondering if someone could tell me if this would have a hollow > > crankshaft to accept a constant speed prop? > I can't. Lycoming may have a model list on their web site ..... > > Also if the engine has been > > sitting for awhile (not pickled but indoors) what could one expect the > value > > to be perhaps as a core. > I've bought run-out engines in the $3000 to $4000 range ..... depending > on HP and injected vs carb. For this one, something a little less than > $4000. > Linn > > It has all the accessories on it including carb, > > alternator, starter, mags, etc. > > > > I know there are lots of variables, but looking for an idea or > approximate. > > Thanks > > > > Tim Bryan > > RV-6 Flying > > N616TB 100 hours now > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:36 AM PST US From: tom sargent Subject: Re: RV-List: pinholes Mark: I've noticed that if you just wipe off the dust, it fills the pin holes. Great idea. Another radical approach I just heard of from a Vari-Eze builder that I work with is to sand the fiberglass with pretty coarse sand paper - 36 grit if you can believe it - and then just squeegee on pure epoxy. Then light sand and repeat as necessary. They claim that 1 to 5 coats of epoxy is all you need to get a perfect surface. No filler at all. Loehle Aircraft also has a radically new system that sounds good. If I ever have to do this again I will definitely do something very different. I can't escape the sinking feeling that if I just knew what I was doing, this whole fiberglass extravaganza would have been 10 times easier. Mark Frederick wrote: > Hi fellas: > > We use a different procedure -- developed over years of fighting this > dang pinhole issue. > > 1: clean the part thoroughly; let dry > 2: dry sand with 150 grit > 3: wipe off dust with dry paper towel > > Yes, you read it correctly. Leave the dust in the pinholes! -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:40 PM PST US From: "Jack Hilditch" Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions I think you should be able to find what you are looking for somewhere on this site: http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/index.html Jack Hilditch Doing a rivet by rivet survey on my RV-9A project fuselage -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 1:38 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions Thanks Linn, I did find a 68 Super Musketeer III for sale with the same engine and a constant speed prop. I would guess that means this engine has the ability to do constant speed. Lycoming's site shows the Musketeer is the only airframe this engine was for. Somewhere I had seen a chart showing what each part of the model designation stood for. I cannot find this, so if anybody could point me to this, I would appreciate it. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 12:19 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions > > > Tim Bryan wrote: > > > > I have run across an IO 360 A2B engine with about 850 hours on it. > Original hours or majored?? If majored, how long ago. Lycomings > guidelines are 2400 hours (I think on this engine) or 12 years. > > It is a 1967 200 HP engine off a Beach Musketeer. > > > > I am wondering if someone could tell me if this would have a hollow > > crankshaft to accept a constant speed prop? > I can't. Lycoming may have a model list on their web site ..... > > Also if the engine has been > > sitting for awhile (not pickled but indoors) what could one expect the > value > > to be perhaps as a core. > I've bought run-out engines in the $3000 to $4000 range ..... depending > on HP and injected vs carb. For this one, something a little less than > $4000. > Linn > > It has all the accessories on it including carb, > > alternator, starter, mags, etc. > > > > I know there are lots of variables, but looking for an idea or > approximate. > > Thanks > > > > Tim Bryan > > RV-6 Flying > > N616TB 100 hours now > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:34 PM PST US From: JFLEISC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions In a message dated 6/8/2008 1:12:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n616tb@btsapps.com writes: am wondering if someone could tell me if this would have a hollow crankshaft to accept a constant speed prop? Also if the engine has been sitting for awhile (not pickled but indoors) what could one expect the value to be perhaps as a core. It has all the accessories on it including carb, alternator, starter, mags, etc. According to the chart it is supposed to be injected not carbureted and it has a fixed pitch. Jim **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:44 PM PST US From: "Bob J." Subject: Re: RV-List: pinholes Guys, I have a friend who trains new employees at Scaled Composites, and this is what they do. The technique they use to fill pinholes is called a "resin wipe". It goes like this: sand with 36 grit paper. Squeegee pure epoxy on then immediately squeegee it off. Repeat 3-5 times, right after the epoxy gets tacky from the previous coat. Wet sand with 150-220 grit. Then spray DP-48 followed by a guide coat of something darker, and simply sand the darker color off. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:07 PM, tom sargent wrote: > > Mark: > I've noticed that if you just wipe off the dust, it fills the pin > holes. Great idea. > > Another radical approach I just heard of from a Vari-Eze builder > that I work with is to sand the fiberglass with pretty coarse sand paper - > 36 grit if you can believe it - and then just squeegee on pure epoxy. Then > light sand and repeat as necessary. They claim that 1 to 5 coats of epoxy > is all you need to get a perfect surface. No filler at all. > > Loehle Aircraft also has a radically new system that sounds good. > If I ever have to do this again I will definitely do something very > different. > > I can't escape the sinking feeling that if I just knew what I was > doing, this whole fiberglass extravaganza would have been 10 times easier. > > > Mark Frederick wrote: > >> Hi fellas: >> We use a different procedure -- developed over years of fighting this >> dang pinhole issue. >> 1: clean the part thoroughly; let dry >> 2: dry sand with 150 grit >> 3: wipe off dust with dry paper towel >> Yes, you read it correctly. Leave the dust in the pinholes! >> > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:17 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions Hi Jack, It took awhile but I did find the chart from a link on this site. Thank you. According to the chart, in the A2B the 2 would indicate solid crank and the B could mean no governor and or pad at the accessory case. I did find a musketeer with this engine for sale that had a constant speed prop but they may have made a change in crank and or accessory case to make that happen. I don't really know. It appears from the Lyco site the engine was only used in the Super Musketeer and never came with a constant speed prop. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB 100 hours now Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Hilditch > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:00 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions > > > I think you should be able to find what you are looking for somewhere on > this > site: http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/index.html > > > Jack Hilditch > Doing a rivet by rivet survey on my RV-9A project fuselage > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 1:38 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions > > > Thanks Linn, > > I did find a 68 Super Musketeer III for sale with the same engine and a > constant speed prop. I would guess that means this engine has the ability > to do constant speed. Lycoming's site shows the Musketeer is the only > airframe this engine was for. > > Somewhere I had seen a chart showing what each part of the model > designation > stood for. I cannot find this, so if anybody could point me to this, I > would appreciate it. > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Flying > N616TB 100 hours now > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters > > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 12:19 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: IO 360 A2B Questions > > > > > > Tim Bryan wrote: > > > > > > I have run across an IO 360 A2B engine with about 850 hours on it. > > Original hours or majored?? If majored, how long ago. Lycomings > > guidelines are 2400 hours (I think on this engine) or 12 years. > > > It is a 1967 200 HP engine off a Beach Musketeer. > > > > > > I am wondering if someone could tell me if this would have a hollow > > > crankshaft to accept a constant speed prop? > > I can't. Lycoming may have a model list on their web site ..... > > > Also if the engine has been > > > sitting for awhile (not pickled but indoors) what could one expect the > > value > > > to be perhaps as a core. > > I've bought run-out engines in the $3000 to $4000 range ..... depending > > on HP and injected vs carb. For this one, something a little less than > > $4000. > > Linn > > > It has all the accessories on it including carb, > > > alternator, starter, mags, etc. > > > > > > I know there are lots of variables, but looking for an idea or > > approximate. > > > Thanks > > > > > > Tim Bryan > > > RV-6 Flying > > > N616TB 100 hours now > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:04 PM PST US From: tom sargent Subject: Re: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress linn Walters wrote: > > Excellent post Tom!!! You said " If anyone wants more details about my > process, I will gladly post." Please do. Those of us faced with all > the FG parts will be indebted to you. Well, OK, Linn, since you asked. I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to change horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole approach. A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open coat" sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding. Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too fine. Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular stuff. I buy it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales personnel might not know what "open coat" means (the grains of abrasive are further apart). If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the package is it probably open coat and it will say open coat on the back of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff does, anyway). Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with: 1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting woodwork, I think. 2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7. 3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes and surface roughness. 4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth you have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV Smooth Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot fill it. You can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's underneath is nice and smooth. My Process is all of the above plus: 1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture and the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to manageable levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the can. I think that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that I live in dry Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.) 2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life - several hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover the whole thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait. 3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with plastic wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes. Do not try to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform thickness over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces less texture than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let any thick runs or drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens, it's impossible to sand those away without sanding completely thru the adjacent UV smoothprime. Which is another way of saying, make it uniform. 4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if you want or have enough of the stuff left. 5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more than 4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just to reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3 more coats as above. 6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1 watt LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with my extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches from the surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you are not blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end of your nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a head strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that they do not matter to the paint. 7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV smoothprime at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface I can see them pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few pin holes that look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're probably too deep to sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV Smoothprime (I hear that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a credit card works well, but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use Polyfiber Superfill (Blue goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler + 1g hardener), put a small dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick and then use a safety razor blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over the pin hole. Don't squeegee real hard. Use moderate pressure so you leave a thin film over the area of the pin hole. If you did it just right, you'll have a spot the size of a nickel that you can spot-sand away easily leaving the filled pin hole behind. Again, inspect with the flashlight and near-sighted eyes. 8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2 weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months later. -- Tom S. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.