---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/09/08: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:23 AM - Re: UV SmoothPrime progress (Jim Sears) 2. 03:48 AM - Re: UV SmoothPrime progress (Dana Overall) 3. 05:14 AM - Re: UV SmoothPrime progress (linn Walters) 4. 06:34 AM - Re: pinholes (Bob) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: UV SmoothPrime progress (sarg314@comcast.net) 6. 06:52 PM - (no subject) (gert) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:26 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress I see the SmoothPrime debates continue. I've been deleting most of the notes on this because I made my inputs, long ago. However, I'll add one response. I had one experience with the stuff and would not recommend it to anyone. I have to admit that I didn't dry sand mine because the manual said nothing about having to dry sand it to make it work. It made the tiny bubbles that when sanded made little holes where the bubbles had been. I ended up losing about a week's work on my glass parts and sanded every bit of the stuff off my airplane. I ended up with the Dupont fast fill primer that I think was mentioned in this thread. It filled nicely, could be worked into pinholes with the finger, etc. It just worked so much better. With the first coat, that I was able to sand with wet-dry sandpaper with no little bubbles popping up, I got most of the pin holes. A second coat in areas I missed got the rest. It took very little time to do this, when compared to the mess I got into with the SmoothPrime. As for letting the stuff set for two weeks, this may not be good if one has a paint shop tied up, as was my experience. Each of us finds something that works for us; but, I simply can't recommend SmoothPrime to anyone. I prefer to recommend a fast fill primer like the Dupont product that works well the first time. Since most of us wet sand our paint, it's obvious we'd probably prefer a primer product we can wet sand, as well. If we were building a glass airplane, the story may be different. Well, maybe not. I may still prefer the Dupont product over what I went through with the SmoothPrime process. Another nice thing about the Dupont product is that it can also be used to fill in those little dings you've done to the skins. It can fill up to about a 1/16"; so, that would take care of most of the problems. I don't think you can do that with SmoothPrime. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom sargent" Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 11:33 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress > > linn Walters wrote: >> >> Excellent post Tom!!! You said " If anyone wants more details about my >> process, I will gladly post." Please do. Those of us faced with all >> the FG parts will be indebted to you. > > Well, OK, Linn, since you asked. > > I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I > convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a > piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to change > horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole approach. > > A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open coat" > sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you > definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding. > Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too fine. > Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular stuff. I buy > it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales personnel might not > know what "open coat" means (the grains of abrasive are further apart). > If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the package is it probably open coat > and it will say open coat on the back of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff > does, anyway). > > Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with: > 1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the > smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at > home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting > woodwork, I think. > > 2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number > of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7. > > 3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes and > surface roughness. > > 4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth you > have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV Smooth > Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot fill it. You > can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's underneath is nice > and smooth. > > > My Process is all of the above plus: > 1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture and > the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to manageable > levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the can. I think > that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that I live in dry > Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.) > > 2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to > come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life - several > hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover the whole > thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait. > > 3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with plastic > wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes. Do not try > to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform thickness > over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces less texture > than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let any thick runs or > drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens, it's impossible to sand > those away without sanding completely thru the adjacent UV smoothprime. > Which is another way of saying, make it uniform. > > 4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes > to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if you > want or have enough of the stuff left. > > 5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more than > 4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just to > reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3 more > coats as above. > > 6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive > amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly > reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very > frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with > compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1 watt > LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with my > extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches from the > surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you are not > blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end of your > nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a head > strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that they do > not matter to the paint. > > 7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the > pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV smoothprime > at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface I can see them > pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few pin holes that > look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're probably too deep to > sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV Smoothprime (I hear > that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a credit card works well, > but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use Polyfiber Superfill (Blue > goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler + 1g hardener), put a small > dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick and then use a safety razor > blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over the pin hole. Don't squeegee > real hard. Use moderate pressure so you leave a thin film over the area > of the pin hole. If you did it just right, you'll have a spot the size > of a nickel that you can spot-sand away easily leaving the filled pin > hole behind. Again, inspect with the flashlight and near-sighted eyes. > > 8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2 > weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months > later. > > -- > Tom S. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:49 AM PST US From: Dana Overall Subject: RE: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress Tom excellent post in how to apply Smooth Prime. My first airplane was of the plastic variety, during the course of which I was the national gatherin g host for two years. I put on a forum on Smooth Prime during both those g athering and several subsequent flyins. As you said, this stuff is to be u sed for filling pin holes only. Due to the makeup of this product two thin gs are prevalent, use a roller no matter how much you think you "should" sp ray it on, what you are actually doing is forcing the product into the pin holds instead of possibly just skim coating a pinhole which could crack ope n in the future. When you dry sand this stuff, it is so much easier to san d and an epoxy/micro, the only material you want left is IN the pinholes . It does made a tremendous amount of dust but is very, very easy to sand. It is still used quite extensively in the plastic world and their plastic i s no different than our plastic............just lots more of it. Good luck. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackmagic.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:33:06 -0700 > From: sarg314@comcast.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress > > > linn Walters wrote: > > > > Excellent post Tom!!! You said " If anyone wants more details about my > > process, I will gladly post." Please do. Those of us faced with all > > the FG parts will be indebted to you. > > Well, OK, Linn, since you asked. > > I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I > convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a > piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to change > horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole approach. > > A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open coat" > sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you > definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding. > Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too fine. > Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular stuff. I buy > it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales personnel might not > know what "open coat" means (the grains of abrasive are further apart). > If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the package is it probably open coat > and it will say open coat on the back of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff > does, anyway). > > Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with: > 1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the > smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at > home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting > woodwork, I think. > > 2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number > of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7. > > 3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes and > surface roughness. > > 4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth you > have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV Smooth > Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot fill it. You > can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's underneath is nice > and smooth. > > > My Process is all of the above plus: > 1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture and > the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to manageable > levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the can. I think > that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that I live in dry > Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.) > > 2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to > come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life - several > hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover the whole > thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait. > > 3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with plastic > wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes. Do not try > to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform thickness > over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces less texture > than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let any thick runs or > drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens, it's impossible to sand > those away without sanding completely thru the adjacent UV smoothprime. > Which is another way of saying, make it uniform. > > 4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes > to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if you > want or have enough of the stuff left. > > 5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more than > 4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just to > reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3 more > coats as above. > > 6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive > amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly > reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very > frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with > compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1 watt > LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with my > extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches from the > surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you are not > blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end of your > nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a head > strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that they do > not matter to the paint. > > 7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the > pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV smoothprime > at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface I can see them > pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few pin holes that > look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're probably too deep to > sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV Smoothprime (I hear > that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a credit card works well, > but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use Polyfiber Superfill (Blue > goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler + 1g hardener), put a small > dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick and then use a safety razor > blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over the pin hole. Don't squeegee > real hard. Use moderate pressure so you leave a thin film over the area > of the pin hole. If you did it just right, you'll have a spot the size > of a nickel that you can spot-sand away easily leaving the filled pin > hole behind. Again, inspect with the flashlight and near-sighted eyes. > > 8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2 > weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months > later. > > -- > Tom S. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ It=92s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Wi ndows Live=99 Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:58 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress Many thanks for the info. Somewhere in this thread one person mentioned leaving the dust in the pinhole and capturing that as 'filler'. I'm not too sure that on a hot day the air that's captured along with the dust won't bubble up the paint as the air expands. Just a thought. I've used a variety of finish products over the years ....... and pinholes haven't been a problem ...... so I'm a little worried at this point. I have to think that the Vans FG parts aren't the normal 'work of art' that I'm used to. I'll just have to cross that bridge ..... Linn do not archive > > Well, OK, Linn, since you asked. > > I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I > convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a > piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to > change horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole > approach. > > A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open > coat" sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you > definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding. > Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too > fine. Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular > stuff. I buy it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales > personnel might not know what "open coat" means (the grains of > abrasive are further apart). If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the > package is it probably open coat and it will say open coat on the back > of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff does, anyway). > > Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with: > 1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the > smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at > home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting > woodwork, I think. > > 2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number > of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7. > > 3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes > and surface roughness. > > 4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth > you have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV > Smooth Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot > fill it. You can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's > underneath is nice and smooth. > > > My Process is all of the above plus: > 1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture > and the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to > manageable levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the > can. I think that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that > I live in dry Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.) > > 2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to > come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life - > several hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover > the whole thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait. > > 3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with > plastic wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes. > Do not try to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform > thickness over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces > less texture than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let > any thick runs or drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens, > it's impossible to sand those away without sanding completely thru the > adjacent UV smoothprime. Which is another way of saying, make it > uniform. > > 4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes > to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if > you want or have enough of the stuff left. > > 5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more > than 4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just > to reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3 > more coats as above. > > 6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive > amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly > reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very > frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with > compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1 > watt LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with > my extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches > from the surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you > are not blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end > of your nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a > head strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that > they do not matter to the paint. > > 7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the > pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV > smoothprime at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface > I can see them pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few > pin holes that look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're > probably too deep to sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV > Smoothprime (I hear that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a > credit card works well, but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use > Polyfiber Superfill (Blue goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler > + 1g hardener), put a small dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick > and then use a safety razor blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over > the pin hole. Don't squeegee real hard. Use moderate pressure so you > leave a thin film over the area of the pin hole. If you did it just > right, you'll have a spot the size of a nickel that you can spot-sand > away easily leaving the filled pin hole behind. Again, inspect with > the flashlight and near-sighted eyes. > > 8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2 > weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months > later. > > -- > Tom S. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:54 AM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: pinholes At 01:07 PM 6/8/08, you wrote: > I can't escape the sinking feeling that if I just knew what I was > doing, this whole fiberglass extravaganza would have been 10 times easier. Ah So, the mystery of life. As my old Uncle used to say, most things are pretty simple, once you learn how. Unfortunately by the time you learn "how" the project is over. Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US From: sarg314@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: UV SmoothPrime progress Jim: Sounds interesting. Do you have a Dupont part number for this stuff. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Jim Sears" > > I ended up with the Dupont fast fill primer that I think > was mentioned in this thread. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:17 PM PST US From: gert Subject: RV-List: (no subject) Family circumstances force me to sell my nearly completed RV8A. Comes with IO360-A1B, recent top overhauled by local shop, with all accessories, magneto's, alternator, oil cooler, Skytec inline starter, recent top overhauled by local shop. vetterman exhaust, needs a CS prop, instruments and radios to finish as well as hooking up the engine controls. Abby Erdman interior and hooker harnesses, 5 point with turn buckle. includes all the Van's kits. looking for 40K OBO, interested? email gert.v@sbcglobal.net -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.