Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:19 AM - Re: IFR GPS (linn Walters)
2. 05:38 AM - Re: Visit to Minneapolis (Tim Bryan)
3. 06:20 AM - Re: IFR GPS (Ron Lee)
4. 06:47 AM - Re: IFR GPS (linn Walters)
5. 07:08 AM - Re: IFR GPS (Kelly McMullen)
6. 07:34 AM - Re: IFR GPS (linn Walters)
7. 07:42 AM - Re: IFR GPS (Marty Helller)
8. 01:00 PM - Re: Cracks in Horizontal stabiliser anyone?? (sheldon barrett)
9. 06:50 PM - Experimental Aircraft Financing (Reginald C. Smith, Sr.)
10. 07:58 PM - Re: Experimental Aircraft Financing (John Morgensen)
Message 1
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Thanks to everyone that replied for their answers. I'm aware of the
differences between Certificated and Experimentals, and was hoping for
some factual insight. I had not thought of being ramp checked as a
possibility since (in my experience) the FAA only was concerned about
paperwork, and not the way the airplane was equipped. Polling the FSDOs
(again, in my experience) is a waste of time since they'll only direct
you to the FARs and nobody is going to put their butt in a sling by
giving a written opinion. ..... And David's post pointed out that the
regs are totally outdated. My partner in the -10 flies professionally,
and I'd hate to have him faced with the FAA firing squad.
All the research I've done so far points to the fact that in order to be
used as a primary IFR GPS in an experimental aircraft the GPS must MEET
the requirements of the TSO. I'm a retired electronics engineer, and
used to reading specs. However, it seems (at least to me) that even
trying to see if your GPS meets the TSO is next to impossible. Degree
in GPS certification is almost certainly required ..... and I don't have
that. The problem really lies in trying to get the information on the
GPS that's in your hand (or mounted in the panel). The manufacturer of
the glass panel GPS I'm looking at did say that their GPS meets SOME of
the TSO requirements, but not all. :-( Didn't say what parameters
are on which side. EAA was really responsive to my query (I'm sure they
get a lot of the same questions over and over again) which I didn't expect.
So far, I nobody has stepped up to the plate and said 'I fly behind
(insert favorite glass panel) with built-in GPS, and this is what I do.
Even off list. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation.
Linn
do not archive
Paul Besing wrote:
> Great post, David. GPS is great, but we've been fine without it for a
> long time. My RV-4 is IFR and has a Garmin 396 for my basic VFR nav,
> and IFR backup for situational awareness. I still like flying needles
> better than lines. But the VFR GPS makes a GREAT aid to situational
> awareness, plus terrain, obstacles, XM radio, WX, etc.
>
> Paul Besing
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:58:33 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: IFR GPS
>
> Linn,
>
> The TSO is not required for us, neither is an STC obviously. BUT!
> the unit MUST function to all the standards of the TSO. That includes
> not just RAIM but also the way the approaches and waypoints are
> handled and presented, and sequenced. My guess is that the Odyssey
> would not meet those standards. You may be able to make an argument
> that it does meet the standards for and en-route IFR GPS and then
> you could use it to substitute for DME and flying point to point - but
> you would have to document how you verified that it met the standards
> for en-route IFR GPS. You also have to be sure that the database
> points for the DME on LOC approaches are the same points used in the
> certified units (ie.. DME to the LOC and not the 'airport' etc).
>
> But really, if you want to fly precision GPS approaches don't mess
> around and just get a certified unit. Or save the $$ and just get
> a nav with LOC/GS. That will cost a lot less and get you in to almost
> anywhere. Think about how often you are really going to need/want to
> fly approaches to the lower WAAS minimums. Sometimes, but very very
> rarely.
>
> JMHO
> --
> David Leonard
>
> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
> http://RotaryRoster.net
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM, linn Walters
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>>
>
> I posed the question of what's needed for LEGAL IFR operation, and
> this was the reply I got. He lives in the certified airplane
> world but .......
>
> The unit must be certified under either TSO-c129 or TSO-c146, be
> installed in the aircraft, and be approved in that aircraft on a
> 337 via either
> STC or field approval (if no STC for that aircraft exists). No
> TSO, no IFR
> approval.
>
> Since I'm planning on using the Odyssee
> (http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html) glass panel with
> it's built-in WAAS capableGPS with RAIM ....... there's no TSO.
> Those of you with glass panels that fly IFR with a built-in GPS
> ....... did you use a certified GPS as backupor wing it ..... pun
> intended :-D .
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Visit to Minneapolis |
No problem, just call it proficiency training and have them sign off the
flight review when done.
Do Not Archive
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TB 100 hours now
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Minneapolis
. Or is there a CFI with an RV in the area willing to handle my bi-anual
sometimes during the coming weekend? That would be way cool.
Thanks
Thilo
The would be way cool for you. But you can't pay to do a bi-annual in
someone else's experimental aircraft. Only proficiency training.
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
Message 3
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If you want to do it right, find a system that is TSOd.
Ron Lee
Message 4
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Ron Lee wrote:
> If you want to do it right, find a system that is TSOd.
>
> Ron Lee
That does seem to be the bottom line. Thee is no TSOd glass-panel
system I'm aware of that doesn't cost as much as my house. July Flying
has ans article on the G1000. Just an upgrade to synthetic vision will
cost Diamond owners $10,000!!! And it's all software!!! So, I'll put
in my Odyssey AND a stand alone TSOd GPS ..... just to do it right.
Linn
do not archive
Message 5
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Care to share what key features attracted you to the Odyssey over the
other glass panels?
I expect I will also select a stand alone IFR GPS, that hopefully will
provide data to a glass panel. Don't want to have more $$ in panel than
in airframe.
linn Walters wrote:
> That does seem to be the bottom line. Thee is no TSOd glass-panel
> system I'm aware of that doesn't cost as much as my house. July
> Flying has ans article on the G1000. Just an upgrade to synthetic
> vision will cost Diamond owners $10,000!!! And it's all software!!!
> So, I'll put in my Odyssey AND a stand alone TSOd GPS ..... just to do
> it right.
> Linn
> do not archive
> *
> *
Message 6
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Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Care to share what key features attracted you to the Odyssey over the
> other glass panels?
> I expect I will also select a stand alone IFR GPS, that hopefully will
> provide data to a glass panel. Don't want to have more $$ in panel
> than in airframe.
Cost, capability, ease of software upgrade, ease of installation, just
to name a few. They don't do TSOs .... only experimental to keep the
cost down. Did I mention it's huge??? Here's a screen that you don't
have to squint at!!! You can customize the screens at home with their
software, or if you know that you want something different, they'll do
it for you when you order. They have radios controlled from the panel
that can be black box or panel mount. They have an IO module that
collects all the engine data and sends it on two wires through the
firewall to the unit. Autopilot servos coming out soon. Check it out
at http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html ( Stratomaster, US
distributor) or go to the company site at
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/. Different info. Far too many +s to list
here. I figure around $6000 for the panel and sensors ..... doesn't
include the radios or the servos (around $500 each). If you're going to
OSH, they're in hangar B space 2139 and 2140. They were at Sun-N-Fun in
the ACS booth. If Matt's there, tell him I sent ya!!! :-)
Linn
do not archive
> linn Walters wrote:
>> That does seem to be the bottom line. Thee is no TSOd glass-panel
>> system I'm aware of that doesn't cost as much as my house. July
>> Flying has ans article on the G1000. Just an upgrade to synthetic
>> vision will cost Diamond owners $10,000!!! And it's all software!!!
>> So, I'll put in my Odyssey AND a stand alone TSOd GPS ..... just to
>> do it right.
>> Linn
>> do not archive
>> *
>> *
>
>
Message 7
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Paul,
Not at my desk today so I don't have the FAA's TSO approved list webs
ite at my fingertips, but you can search it on the fAA.gov webpage.
TSO-129 is the GPS IFR certification.
TSO-146 is the GPS/WAAS certification for stand alone NAV radios; i.e. King
KSN 770, or Garmin 430W
TSO-145 is the GPS/WAAS certification for FMS with WAAS sensors; i.e. Avidy
ne Entregra 900W or Garmin 900 or 1000.
Not all certifications have approach capability; it depends what the manufa
cturor has requested.
You're correct; FSDO's have little knowledge; but then again, that gives me
a job in trying to educate them.
Marty Heller
WAAS Program office
RV-7, drilling my firewall....slooooowly....
list@matronics.comSubject: Re: RV-List: IFR GPS
Thanks to everyone that replied for their answers. I'm aware of the differ
ences between Certificated and Experimentals, and was hoping for some factu
al insight. I had not thought of being ramp checked as a possibility since
(in my experience) the FAA only was concerned about paperwork, and not the
way the airplane was equipped. Polling the FSDOs (again, in my experience
) is a waste of time since they'll only direct you to the FARs and nobody i
s going to put their butt in a sling by giving a written opinion. ..... And
David's post pointed out that the regs are totally outdated. My partner i
n the -10 flies professionally, and I'd hate to have him faced with the FAA
firing squad.All the research I've done so far points to the fact that in
order to be used as a primary IFR GPS in an experimental aircraft the GPS m
ust MEET the requirements of the TSO. I'm a retired electronics engineer,
and used to reading specs. However, it seems (at least to me) that even tr
ying to see if your GPS meets the TSO is next to impossible. Degree in GPS
certification is almost certainly required ..... and I don't have that. T
he problem really lies in trying to get the information on the GPS that's i
n your hand (or mounted in the panel). The manufacturer of the glass panel
GPS I'm looking at did say that their GPS meets SOME of the TSO requiremen
ts, but not all. :-( Didn't say what parameters are on which side. EAA
was really responsive to my query (I'm sure they get a lot of the same que
stions over and over again) which I didn't expect.So far, I nobody has step
ped up to the plate and said 'I fly behind (insert favorite glass panel) wi
th built-in GPS, and this is what I do. Even off list. I'm sure I'm not t
he only one in this situation. Linndo not archivePaul Besing wrote:
Great post, David. GPS is great, but we've been fine without it for a long
time. My RV-4 is IFR and has a Garmin 396 for my basic VFR nav, and IFR b
ackup for situational awareness. I still like flying needles better than l
ines. But the VFR GPS makes a GREAT aid to situational awareness, plus ter
rain, obstacles, XM radio, WX, etc.Paul Besing
----- Original Message ----From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>To: rv-
list@matronics.comSent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:58:33 PMSubject: Re: RV-Lis
t: IFR GPS
Linn,
The TSO is not required for us, neither is an STC obviously. BUT! the uni
t MUST function to all the standards of the TSO. That includes not just RA
IM but also the way the approaches and waypoints are handled and presented,
and sequenced. My guess is that the Odyssey would not meet those standard
s. You may be able to make an argument that it does meet the standards for
and en-route IFR GPS and then you could use it to substitute for DME and f
lying point to point - but you would have to document how you verified that
it met the standards for en-route IFR GPS. You also have to be sure that
the database points for the DME on LOC approaches are the same points used
in the certified units (ie.. DME to the LOC and not the 'airport' etc).
But really, if you want to fly precision GPS approaches don't mess around a
nd just get a certified unit. Or save the $$ and just get a nav with LOC/G
S. That will cost a lot less and get you in to almost anywhere. Think abo
ut how often you are really going to need/want to fly approaches to the low
er WAAS minimums. Sometimes, but very very rarely.
JMHO-- David LeonardTurbo Rotary RV-6 N4VYhttp://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp:
//RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
sed the question of what's needed for LEGAL IFR operation, and this was the
reply I got. He lives in the certified airplane world but .......The unit
must be certified under either TSO-c129 or TSO-c146, beinstalled in the ai
rcraft, and be approved in that aircraft on a 337 via eitherSTC or field ap
proval (if no STC for that aircraft exists). No TSO, no IFRapproval.Since
I'm planning on using the Odyssee (http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.
html) glass panel with it's built-in WAAS capableGPS with RAIM ....... ther
e's no TSO. Those of you with glass panels that fly IFR with a built-in GP
S ....... did you use a certified GPS as backupor wing it ..... pun intende
d :-D .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
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Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Cracks in Horizontal stabiliser anyone?? |
Nothing on Van's website 'Letters, Service Bulletins, and Revisions' list
indicates this...
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/notices.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Muller" <mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:58 AM
Subject: RV-List: Cracks in Horizontal stabiliser anyone??
>
> Howdy All,
>
> I heard a rumour that Vans has an issue with cracks in the front spar
> of the Horizontal stabiliser on the RV6. It seems that the area just above
> the
> attach point at the front where the HS602 spar has had the flanges
> cut off has developed cracks down to the first rivet where the edges
> have been filed down. The RV9A which I am building has the same set up,
> and I was
> wondering if the same issue may arise. Has anyone heard of this
> happening on the RV6 or other RV's????
> I am thinking about putting in some sort of doubler plate in this area.
> Mick
>
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Experimental Aircraft Financing |
Say Folks,
I'm in the process of attempting to purchase a "was Flying" project t
o use while I continue building my(was 6A) RV-6, but I'm finding out that t
he RV's and others are on an "Acceptable" list but not others like Tailwind
s and Hiperbipes, etc. Are there companies/organizations that some of you a
re aware of that will finance Ex-Planes other than the popular ones? I wou
ld rather use "Other Peoples Money" for the interum aircraft and not have
to empty the RV Piggy Bank. Any referals/suggestions?
Thanks.
RC
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Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Experimental Aircraft Financing |
Try prosper.com . I have no personal experience with this outfit but I
was checking it out as a possible investment.
john
Reginald C. Smith, Sr. wrote:
> Say Folks,
>
> I'm in the process of attempting to purchase a "was Flying"
> project to use while I continue building my(was 6A) RV-6, but I'm
> finding out that the RV's and others are on an "Acceptable" list but
> not others like Tailwinds and Hiperbipes, etc. Are there
> companies/organizations that some of you are aware of that will
> finance Ex-Planes other than the popular ones? I would rather use
> "Other Peoples Money" for the interum aircraft and not have to empty
> the RV Piggy Bank. Any referals/suggestions?
>
> Thanks.
> RC
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. IM
> on your terms.
> <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008>
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> *
>
>
> *
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