RV-List Digest Archive

Fri 08/29/08


Total Messages Posted: 25



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:34 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Jim Sears)
     2. 04:52 AM - New Group on Facebook (smittysrv)
     3. 05:17 AM - Re: New Group on Facebook ()
     4. 07:17 AM - Re: dual brakes vs. single (Bob)
     5. 07:33 AM - Re: dual brakes vs. single (tom sargent)
     6. 07:33 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Jerry Springer)
     7. 07:56 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Matt Dralle)
     8. 08:39 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Terry Watson)
     9. 09:47 AM - Re: Builder Available! (SteinAir, Inc.)
    10. 12:19 PM - Re: Builder Available! (Jerry Springer)
    11. 01:03 PM - Re: Builder Available! (Steven Reynard)
    12. 03:08 PM - Re: Builder Available! (RICHARD MILLER)
    13. 04:03 PM - Re: Builder Available! (Jerry Springer)
    14. 04:05 PM - Re: Slick Mag Health Check-up (RICHARD MILLER)
    15. 04:32 PM - Re: Slick Mag Health Check-up (Bobby Hester)
    16. 04:32 PM - Need Slick Mag Maintenance Manual (Bobby Hester)
    17. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: Builder Available! (rv6n@optonline.net)
    18. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Builder Available! (John Cox)
    19. 06:21 PM - Re: Builder Available! (John Cox)
    20. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Builder Available! (Ralph Finch)
    21. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: Builder Available! (John Cox)
    22. 08:16 PM - Re: Slick Mag Health Check-up (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
    23. 08:40 PM - I got the Slick manual, thanks! (Bobby Hester)
    24. 10:25 PM - slick manual (RICHARD MILLER)
    25. 11:45 PM - Re: Slick Mags (RICHARD MILLER)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:34:48 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Sears" <jmsears@adelphia.net>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    I helped a friend build his RV. It was a quick build; so, breaking the 51% rule would be easy. In order to help him, and get paid for doing it, I required that he be working with me, at all times. There were times when he had to go somewhere for a few minutes; but, he was with me working on the airplane pretty much all the time. Otherwise, I wouldn't help because I believe in the 51% rule, as is. He applied for and got his repairman's certificate when we were finished because he had a good working knowledge base for his airplane. Those who have their airplanes built by professionals have no idea how it goes together and what makes up the assemblies, etc. They wouldn't be hard to catch lying about their exposure to the project. I've often thought about offering my services; but, I'd require the owner be there with me to shed the blood, sweat, and tears that come with building a project. For those who have no time to build, it would not work out, very well. I guess I'd better just work on my own project. :-) Jim Sears in KY


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:52:05 AM PST US
    Subject: New Group on Facebook
    From: "smittysrv" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
    There's a new group on facebook for Van's Aircraft Builders: Check it out! Feel free to put the image on this posting on your website. Just write click on the image and select "Save Picture As..." -------- Smittys RV-9A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1392#201392


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:17:48 AM PST US
    From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
    Subject: Re: New Group on Facebook
    Oops, the link didn't show up on the email. Here tis... http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36303495524 Smitty http://SmittysRV.com


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:17:19 AM PST US
    From: Bob <panamared5@brier.net>
    Subject: Re: dual brakes vs. single
    >Seems like a lot of anguish over just a few pounds. > For some people, I agree it is not an issue weight wise one way or the other. I on the other hand looked at every piece of equipment on my RV and asked: 1. How much does it weigh? 2. Do I really need that extra weight? 3. If so, is there a lighter alternative available. I usually only fly with 8-10 gals of fuel. I can tell a big difference between 10 gals and 38 gals in the performance of my aircraft. And with a passenger, I can really tell the difference. I like the feel and performance of my aircraft at the lightest possible weight. And 2 pounds here and 2 pounds there really add up. And it is not really 2 pounds it is 12 pounds at 6 Gs! And the passenger brakes that I don't have, have never leaked, nor do they require any maintenance for the entire life of the aircraft. Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:33:15 AM PST US
    From: tom sargent <sarg314@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: dual brakes vs. single
    Thanks to everyone who has commented on this. I have decided to remove the right side brakes and move my brake fluid reservoir over to the left side of the firewall, mainly because of the simplification it offers. 1- easier routing of lines (my main issue now) 2- fewer joints to leak, 3- easier to bleed to brakes (since there's less tubing, I'm guessing) The few pounds of weight saving is a extra bonus, though it's important too. -- Tom S., RV-6A, almost ready to rivet the forward top skin.


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:33:15 AM PST US
    From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    I really hate it when the only labor a person puts into their project is what it takes to write the checks, then they go to fly ins and claims all the glory for their hard work by showing off their trophies for the airplane they built. I believe that to enter your airplane for judging you should be able to show you DID in fact build 51% Jerry do not archive


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:56:42 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    That's probably what Scratch-Builders say about us Kit-Builders... ;-) Matt At 07:31 AM 8/29/2008 Friday, you wrote: > >I really hate it when the only labor a person puts into their project is what it takes to write the checks, then they go to fly ins >and claims all the glory for their hard work by showing off their trophies for the airplane they built. >I believe that to enter your airplane for judging you should be able to show you DID in fact build 51% > >Jerry >do not archive Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:39:57 AM PST US
    From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
    Subject: Builder Available!
    A couple of years ago I was looking at RV's at the Arlington fly-in and saw a very beautiful RV-8 arrive. The owner/pilot and his passenger set about getting it ready for judging, complete with professional display boards about all of its custom features. I asked the owner about his custom canopy and got a pretty vague response, then about his tip tanks and was told that he got them from "some guy in New Zealand." I realized that this guy didn't know much about his own airplane, certainly not enough to have been around much while it was being built. He won grand champion kit built. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Springer Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:32 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! I really hate it when the only labor a person puts into their project is what it takes to write the checks, then they go to fly ins and claims all the glory for their hard work by showing off their trophies for the airplane they built. I believe that to enter your airplane for judging you should be able to show you DID in fact build 51% Jerry do not archive


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:47:58 AM PST US
    From: "SteinAir, Inc." <stein@steinair.com>
    Subject: Builder Available!
    Wow! I gotta say this thread has brought out more of the ole' "Gray Beards" than I've seen in a LOOONG time! No offense to Jerry or Terry or Sam (quite the opposite), but it's really great to see the troop of builders I gleaned so much info from years ago when this was "THE group"! Sam used to be the RV guy, and many of these other guys were the only sources us old time slow builders had for info. The kits, plans, etc.. were far from what they are today, and if you didn't use the info from those who'd gone before you, completing those old kits could be quite a challenge. What I'm saying is they know what they speak of, and they've been around the block more times than many of the current builders would know. It's kind of nice to see they are still here watching and occasionally taking the time to input their thoughts. My personal opinion on this is similar. I know what goes on, heck my business is providing avionics for people. But, I can't believe people openly advertise "professional building of your plane" and then wonder why the FAA is looking at this whole subject. If you didn't keep seeing planes like the "professionally built RV-10" on Ebay for sale, I'd guess this issue wouldn't be nearly as big as it is. After all, it's kind of an oxymoron to advertise an RV-10, which at its heart is an Amateur built experimental, as "professionally built".... My 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Terry Watson >Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:34 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > >A couple of years ago I was looking at RV's at the Arlington fly-in and saw >a very beautiful RV-8 arrive. The owner/pilot and his passenger set about >getting it ready for judging, complete with professional display boards >about all of its custom features. I asked the owner about his custom canopy >and got a pretty vague response, then about his tip tanks and was told that >he got them from "some guy in New Zealand." I realized that this >guy didn't >know much about his own airplane, certainly not enough to have been around >much while it was being built. > >He won grand champion kit built. > >Terry > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Springer >Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:32 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! > > >I really hate it when the only labor a person puts into their project is >what it takes to write the checks, then they go to fly ins >and claims all the glory for their hard work by showing off their >trophies for the airplane they built. >I believe that to enter your airplane for judging you should be able to >show you DID in fact build 51% > >Jerry >do not archive > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 12:19:00 PM PST US
    From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    And I salute scratch builders :) Jerry Matt Dralle wrote: > >That's probably what Scratch-Builders say about us Kit-Builders... ;-) > >Matt > > >At 07:31 AM 8/29/2008 Friday, you wrote: > > >> >>I really hate it when the only labor a person puts into their project is what it takes to write the checks, then they go to fly ins >>and claims all the glory for their hard work by showing off their trophies for the airplane they built. >>I believe that to enter your airplane for judging you should be able to show you DID in fact build 51% >> >>Jerry >>do not archive >> >> > > >Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 >925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email >http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:03:21 PM PST US
    From: "Steven Reynard" <sreynard13@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    How about submitting a resume to Cessna or Boeing? They are probably looking for experienced people that want to build airplanes for money. Steve do not archive


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:08:21 PM PST US
    From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Builder Available!
    i don't know if this has been covered but after having to clean up my swamped inbox i missed alot of it. the only person allowed to contribute to the 51% rule is a person that is not compensated for his time ie. , owner friends and family,the only back door to this rule is the purchase of a kit from another builder. there is no limit on the compensation to the builder and thier work falls under the 51% rule. there are also a couple of other fars that deal with this but as long as only one or two a year come out of that shop then i don't see the faa getting a real hard on about it. but i would suggest that if you go this way at least get and a+p to do the work. since you are not going to be able to determine the condition of the aircraft and its build quality from build experence. rick --- On Thu, 8/28/08, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote: > From: John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 4:48 PM > Just call the guy a "hired educator". The owner > shows the ways of > capitalism and the worker provides the labor. > > > > Unfortunately to acquire the Airworthiness Certificate > regardless of the > Repairman pursuit the owner of the kit must certify he has > done 51%. > > > > John Cox > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > John Danielson > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:15 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > I don't believe it's a problem to have help > building your experimental. > To hire someone to build the whole plane for you is not a > problem > either, if you don't apply for the repairmen's > certificate. This would > indicate that you built the plane. > > Having help building is like having a friend or > organization build a > plane. If you only had help with construction, you would > still be able > to apply for the repairmen's certificate, You are the > builder. > > > > John L. Danielson > > > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Mike Robertson > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:40 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > Also, be careful about who may be on the list listening!! > > Mike Robertson > Das Fed > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ > > > From: bmeyette@gmail.com > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:33:36 -0400 > > isn't that contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, > of the 51% builder > rule? Nothing against you personally, and i dont say this > with any > antagoinstic meaning, but I understand that the current FAA > reexamination of the 51% rule and possible tightening of > restrictions on > builders is due to the proliferation of "builders for > hire". > > brian > > > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Jack Sparling > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:14 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Builder Available! > > If you are looking for someone to complete your project, I > will be > available in September. Please take a look at my blog and > give me a > call to discuss your needs. > > > > All the best, > > > > Jack Sparling > > N5115Q 40487 210hrs. > > Crestwood, Kentucky > > Cell: (502) 262-6557 > > Jhs_61@yahoo.com > > N5115Q.blogspot.com > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c > om/Navigator?RV-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > ONT> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 NT size=2> > > > > > Checked by AVG. > > > > > 8/27/2008 7:06 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out > featured > posts. Check It Out! > <http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008> > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c > om/Navigator?RV-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 13


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    Time: 04:03:59 PM PST US
    From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    One or two a year? that is going to be a BIG problem with FAA ICHARD MILLER wrote: > >i don't know if this has been covered but after having to clean up my swamped inbox i missed alot of it. the only person allowed to contribute to the 51% rule is a person that is not compensated for his time ie. , owner friends and family,the only back door to this rule is the purchase of a kit from another builder. there is no limit on the compensation to the builder and thier work falls under the 51% rule. there are also a couple of other fars that deal with this but as long as only one or two a year come out of that shop then i don't see the faa getting a real hard on about it. but i would suggest that if you go this way at least get and a+p to do the work. since you are not going to be able to determine the condition of the aircraft and its build quality from build experence. > >rick > > >--- On Thu, 8/28/08, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote: > > > >>From: John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 4:48 PM >>Just call the guy a "hired educator". The owner >>shows the ways of >>capitalism and the worker provides the labor. >> >> >> >>Unfortunately to acquire the Airworthiness Certificate >>regardless of the >>Repairman pursuit the owner of the kit must certify he has >>done 51%. >> >> >> >>John Cox >> >> >> >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>John Danielson >>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:15 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >> >> >> >>I don't believe it's a problem to have help >>building your experimental. >>To hire someone to build the whole plane for you is not a >>problem >>either, if you don't apply for the repairmen's >>certificate. This would >>indicate that you built the plane. >> >>Having help building is like having a friend or >>organization build a >>plane. If you only had help with construction, you would >>still be able >>to apply for the repairmen's certificate, You are the >>builder. >> >> >> >>John L. Danielson >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>Mike Robertson >>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:40 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >> >> >> >>Also, be careful about who may be on the list listening!! >> >>Mike Robertson >>Das Fed >> >>DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >>________________________________ >> >> >>From: bmeyette@gmail.com >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >>Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:33:36 -0400 >> >>isn't that contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, >>of the 51% builder >>rule? Nothing against you personally, and i dont say this >>with any >>antagoinstic meaning, but I understand that the current FAA >>reexamination of the 51% rule and possible tightening of >>restrictions on >>builders is due to the proliferation of "builders for >>hire". >> >>brian >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>Jack Sparling >>Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:14 PM >>To: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RV-List: Builder Available! >> >>If you are looking for someone to complete your project, I >>will be >>available in September. Please take a look at my blog and >>give me a >>call to discuss your needs. >> >> >> >>All the best, >> >> >> >>Jack Sparling >> >>N5115Q 40487 210hrs. >> >>Crestwood, Kentucky >> >>Cell: (502) 262-6557 >> >>Jhs_61@yahoo.com >> >>N5115Q.blogspot.com >> >> >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c >>om/Navigator?RV-List >>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >>ONT> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 NT size=2> >> >> >> >> >>Checked by AVG. >> >> >> >> >>8/27/2008 7:06 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >>ttp://forums.matronics.com >>=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >>See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out >>featured >>posts. Check It Out! >><http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008> >> >> >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c >>om/Navigator?RV-List >>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> >> > > > > > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:05:05 PM PST US
    From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Slick Mag Health Check-up
    mark i would like to apoligise, for hammering you i had had a bad day with some customers i had trusted. i was doing an annual, and found that the vac pump, elt, and half the radio stack had been changed since the last time i saw the bird with no paper work ,this was a customer that i had an owner allowed work agreement in place with as long as i supervised. it seems that he forgot the word supervised. it is going to turn out to be a very expensive annual. so you want specific info on why slicks are so bad, first off there are two thing currently wrong with slicks, the cams and the brushes. brushes: slick had a problem with the brushes not making the 500hr inspection after they changed to a new supplier. so they redsigned the brush again and found out that they were failing now in ten hours as opposed to 400 hrs. this resulted in sb3-08, which resulted in a maditory service bullentin for every engine manufacturer, and every airframe manufacturer, also most of the owners groups have agreed that this one is for real. at this time there is no fix for the brush problem. slick also has an inside quality control issues that they are working on. i have yet to see an improvement in the field, but after talking to them they are retooling the line to ensure that this will stop. i hope so the problem with the brushes is that it will take out a mag and is not detectable after the post crash fire. i have spoken with the engineer for the faa and his statement was" you have two mags so what is the problem" cams: the next problem was the cams, for some reason that slick won't say they either forgot to lube the cams to prevent wear or changed material in the cams themselves. this result in manditory sb2-08 next we have slick pricing policy that ensure that mags are returned to them for disposal. eleminated field reports of failure. all of the mag returned to slick due to time or failure slick has not reported those failures to the faa as thier policy is to destroy the mag rather then rebuild/inspect. the next problem we see with the slicks is the arching at the mag to harness interface point. which eats both the harness and the distributor block and gear. due to the fact that they could not be bothered to design a gasket for this seam or any of the seams for a nonpressurized mag thier is a problem of contaimination around the high voltage leads. Pricing: then when they charge you 266.00$ for a coil that cost them less then 20.00$ to make and test. design: the rotor gear design for the slicks is of insufficent strength for abnormal engine loads. ie missing and backfire. and the gear driven design requires a much higher speed then what would be considered normal to the auto industry. The rotor gear and cam attachment design are insuffeciant for abnormal loads. which has resulted in rotor gear failure and cam failure. check the saibs to verfiy this. What is missing in the slick design: remove the rotor gear and place the brush in the distributor block so that we eliminate dynamic wear to the brush. it needs a steel multi lobe cam to get rid of the plastic piece of crap. seals we need seals we fly in rain. a cam lube wiper would be nice to. rick --- On Thu, 8/28/08, wskimike <wskimike@mchsi.com> wrote: > From: wskimike <wskimike@mchsi.com> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Slick Mag Health Check-up > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 4:43 PM > The problem is if the person peforming your check > doesn't have a tester where he can turn the mag and > check the spark, he is not in compliance with the check and > he is betting your life on his work. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bobby Hester > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:01 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Slick Mag Health Check-up > > > Well Mark, looks like you know exactly what to do now! > Ha ha ha! > Unbelievable! I do not have a maintenance manual for the > slick mags but will try to get one from a buddy soon. I am > sure you would still like to know what the manual says is > due and when. > > ---- > Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY > Visit my website at: > http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ > > > Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > Mojo (She's a good girl!) is approaching her > 500-hour check-up and I've been trying to determine the > maintenance needs for her Slick 4370 & 4371 magnetos. > Research has led to a lot of info regarding HOW to do lots > of stuff, but not necessarily what NEEDS to be done > regarding checking points, rebuild etc. Her timing has > always been spot-on, but I'm concerned about making sure > she stays in perfect health. > > Advice? Links? > > Mark, N51PW, E3D, OSHBL, S&FBMH, SERFIGC etc... > http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/ > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. > Find your travel deal here. > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 15


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    Time: 04:32:07 PM PST US
    From: Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@newwavecomm.net>
    Subject: Re: Slick Mag Health Check-up
    For some reason I never the received the message with the link for the Slick manual. Could someone send me that link. ---- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my website at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ Sam Buchanan wrote: > > RICHARD MILLER wrote: >> mark it is rick not nick the first post i told you what to look for. >> >> i have posted the manual and told you what we do for this inspection. >> if i have to put it in big letters i will.slick mags are junk. given >> half a chance they will kill you. ask any mag shop what they think >> about them. they are plastic pieces of crap and i would not have them >> on my aircraft. > > Rick, > > I appreciate you posting the Slick magneto manual, that is a very > useful resource. > > However, you have repeatedly, and I mean repeatedly, stated your > disgust with Slick magnetos. In my opinion, your statement above > completed the process of destroying any credibility you have with me, > and I'm confident, with many other RVers. To state that Slick mags > will "kill you" shows a lack of grounding in reality. > > I have no idea why you feel so strongly about this matter, but it is > obvious your strong feelings have clouded any objectivity you may have > about the mag issue. I had a long professional relationship with an > A&P whom I deeply respected, and we discussed the longevity of the > Slick mags on my *experimental* plane at the time we freshened them. > We were able to replace points, cam, condenser, and bearings for about > $250 per mag. > > The opinion of the A&Ps I've discussed Slick mags with is that yes, > they do have a finite life span, and more than likely it is best to > replace them if they cause problems after several hundred hours of > service. But I have never heard a pro express the vitriol toward Slick > mags that you continue to spew on this list. > > I respect your right to express your opinion, but personally, I put no > stock in what you have expressed. > > Sam Buchanan > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 04:32:48 PM PST US
    From: Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@newwavecomm.net>
    Subject: Need Slick Mag Maintenance Manual
    I missed the link for the Slick Mag Maintenace Manual, could someone post it again. -- ---- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my website at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/


    Message 17


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    Time: 06:02:47 PM PST US
    From: rv6n@optonline.net
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    "one or two a year"? Maybe I am just really slow, but it took me six years to build my RV6. My opinion about this builder for hire is, if you want a hired (rivet) gun, go buy a resale! You are not part of the clan and I have no respect for you. Find yourself a good building addict, or "repeat offender" that is willing to sell his blood sweat and passionately built RVxx and be proud to fly one of the greatest aircraft available. Don't be a schmuck and claim you built it, be proud you own it. I was very proud of my Cessna s and American General when I owned them but I did not build them. No one can blame the FAA for trying to get rid of the cheaters! It is a shame when you have to rationalize your way around the rules because you are hurting the real builders. I will still ooooh and aaaah your purchased RVxx that you bought as a resale if it looks like it is built with quality and perfection which you are hoping for but have no guarantee when you hire a gun. My building days are over and my RV6 is for sale and I only have 80 hours on it. When it sells I will be going LSA and will be proud of what-ever I have the privilege of buying and flying then. Getting off my soap box now. Bob Bales do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: RICHARD MILLER Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > i don't know if this has been covered but after having to clean > up my swamped inbox i missed alot of it. the only person allowed > to contribute to the 51% rule is a person that is not > compensated for his time ie. , owner friends and family,the only > back door to this rule is the purchase of a kit from another > builder. there is no limit on the compensation to the builder > and thier work falls under the 51% rule. there are also a couple > of other fars that deal with this but as long as only one or two > a year come out of that shop then i don't see the faa getting a > real hard on about it. but i would suggest that if you go this > way at least get and a+p to do the work. since you are not going > to be able to determine the condition of the aircraft and its > build quality from build experence. > > rick > > > --- On Thu, 8/28/08, John Cox wrote: > > > From: John Cox > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 4:48 PM > > Just call the guy a "hired educator". The owner > > shows the ways of > > capitalism and the worker provides the labor. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately to acquire the Airworthiness Certificate > > regardless of the > > Repairman pursuit the owner of the kit must certify he has > > done 51%. > > > > > > > > John Cox > > > > > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > John Danielson > > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:15 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > > > > > I don't believe it's a problem to have help > > building your experimental. > > To hire someone to build the whole plane for you is not a > > problem > > either, if you don't apply for the repairmen's > > certificate. This would > > indicate that you built the plane. > > > > Having help building is like having a friend or > > organization build a > > plane. If you only had help with construction, you would > > still be able > > to apply for the repairmen's certificate, You are the > > builder. > > > > > > > > John L. Danielson > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > Mike Robertson > > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:40 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > > > > > Also, be careful about who may be on the list listening!! > > > > Mike Robertson > > Das Fed > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: bmeyette@gmail.com > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:33:36 -0400 > > > > isn't that contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, > > of the 51% builder > > rule? Nothing against you personally, and i dont say this > > with any > > antagoinstic meaning, but I understand that the current FAA > > reexamination of the 51% rule and possible tightening of > > restrictions on > > builders is due to the proliferation of "builders for > > hire". > > > > brian > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > Jack Sparling > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:14 PM > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > If you are looking for someone to complete your project, I > > will be > > available in September. Please take a look at my blog and > > give me a > > call to discuss your needs. > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > Jack Sparling > > > > N5115Q 40487 210hrs. > > > > Crestwood, Kentucky > > > > Cell: (502) 262-6557 > > > > Jhs_61@yahoo.com > > > > N5115Q.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV- > List">http://www.matronics.c> om/Navigator?RV-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c> ONT> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 NT size=2> > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG. > > > > > > > > > > 8/27/2008 7:06 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > > ttp://forums.matronics.com > > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out > > featured > > posts. Check It Out! > > > > > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV- > List">http://www.matronics.c> om/Navigator?RV-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > > > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 06:10:12 PM PST US
    Subject: Builder Available!
    From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
    If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies? The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy. I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule. John Cox From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:59 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! Glad to see this response. I went to a professional building class for the empennage, but that pro-builder-assister had an iron rule that the aircraft owner always had to be present and working/learning. That I too believe meets the letter and spirit of the Amateur Built rules. But companies or individuals who blatantly offer to build even a part of your aircraft if you're too busy are screwing all of us with the FAA. Don't like the regs? Get 'em changed before you screw the rest of us who really are building and learning. Still too busy? Why'd you start a kit? Sell your project and buy someone's completed plane. There are lots on the market. Ralph Finch On Behalf Of Kyrilian Dyer Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:45 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! <cut> Though I don't think it's totally black and white, I don't believe the FAA has any real problem with builders getting assistance where they're involved too (working alongside a pro). But the FAA clearly has major issues with amateur builders who pay for someone else to do the work without being present and involved. I think it's important that we all realize what's at stake and remind ourselves what the regs say. Getting professional assistance (builder involved) is not the same as hiring out the work (builder not involved). If we don't abide by the regs then the regs will change--for the worse, I expect.


    Message 19


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    Time: 06:21:22 PM PST US
    Subject: Builder Available!
    From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
    Terry, a tragic acceptance of how the EAA has been corrupted by money forces. There should be a whole new category of awards for Build Assist products. Then we could respectfully wax enthusiastically on the many who toil in the spirit of the 51% rule. A close friend hired out his award winner RV-8,from Montana. Other friends congratulated him on his many plaques and prudent purchase of fame and glory. John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! A couple of years ago I was looking at RV's at the Arlington fly-in and saw a very beautiful RV-8 arrive. The owner/pilot and his passenger set about getting it ready for judging, complete with professional display boards about all of its custom features. I asked the owner about his custom canopy and got a pretty vague response, then about his tip tanks and was told that he got them from "some guy in New Zealand." I realized that this guy didn't know much about his own airplane, certainly not enough to have been around much while it was being built. He won grand champion kit built. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Springer Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:32 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! I really hate it when the only labor a person puts into their project is what it takes to write the checks, then they go to fly ins and claims all the glory for their hard work by showing off their trophies for the airplane they built. I believe that to enter your airplane for judging you should be able to show you DID in fact build 51% Jerry do not archive


    Message 20


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    Time: 07:04:29 PM PST US
    From: "Ralph Finch" <rgf@dcn.davis.ca.us>
    Subject: Builder Available!
    Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10% of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum. In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal, usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so much physical work for decades. I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing, grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac! The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no repairman's certificate for the owner. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies? The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy. I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule. John Cox


    Message 21


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    Time: 08:15:18 PM PST US
    Subject: Builder Available!
    From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
    Okay, I'll play Ralph. You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, the hired professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > 51.00% of the assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the manufacturer of parts did <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. Step to the window for you Lottery Winnings. The FAA is working with manufacturer's of approved OBAM kit aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing kit approvals will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% for Plans built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) the documentation of Build Assist will require a new more specific written log of Builder Assist (not just hired guns). Under the new rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the work that you personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that you also might want the DAR to process your request to be called a Repairman so you can complete Conditional Inspections. Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the RV-10 more like 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 hours spread over two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the floor maybe 40 hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the most physical work you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to catch your breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now lost and confused how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours somewhere) of build other than the exhausting effort to write the check for the TWTT program. Now don't read too much into the above math. Marc Cook, Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and Ethical) with the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van sells more kits, Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more interiors, the US aviation industry sells more hardware.... life is GOOD. You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many builders will acquire more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of effort will cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying Hand". I have tried to buy some of them, boy was that an insult. Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. Quit my career, attended A&P school (at more than 50 years old), completed Orals and Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, have help scores of builders and went to work for the airlines to gain even more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM builders are prideful and think they have a handle on the knowledge to maintain their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it to John Q. Public with a willingness to write a check in that pursuit. I will offer than many do little to show any DAR that they know squat as to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life altering mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, don't go ballistic here....I am reading about that damned Slick Mag bulletin with my other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well until the money created the "Professional Build Assist". Oh by the way, the Professional field it is totally unregulated and uses untrained Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I just have trouble swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are helping this avocation that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue what my heart told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to go out the door with. The problem is not with you the builder. It is with the bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs who would sell out their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear more dialog on how much time, how much money and how many questions the typical OBAM kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals Exam in front of their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if the OBAM builder could match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with those damned A & Ps that I resemble in my day job. My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other window and make it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >51.0% , tip your hat and smile... you are a Builder/Aviator of the First Order. if you can't complete a comprehensive review by the DAR on the skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that coveted Repairman Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a comprehensive safety inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a Repairman Certificate. It is all about review of correctly processed FAA mandated paperwork. As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, telling myself "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut Up, Smile and help by pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower the accident rate for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For those guys and gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary Aircraft... leave us struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in conversations with respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have the best interests of their family, their community and all of us at stake. Professionals please leave the arena. Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make courtesy comment to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change. John Cox Do not Archive From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10% of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum. In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal, usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so much physical work for decades. I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing, grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac! The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no repairman's certificate for the owner. ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies? The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy. I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule. John Cox


    Message 22


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    Time: 08:16:13 PM PST US
    From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Slick Mag Health Check-up
    In a message dated 8/29/2008 6:06:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rickpegser@yahoo.com writes: so you want specific info on why slicks are so bad, first off there are two thing currently wrong with slicks, the cams and the brushes. Rick- Understand the "bad day' thing- I've had more than I care to admit myself! I genuinely appreciate all of the other information provided in your latest post. Much MEAT to chew on... After digging through all the data at hand, perhaps I'll have more questions needing good advice based on real-world experience. Thanks! Mark Phillips Columbia, TN **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


    Message 23


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    Time: 08:40:01 PM PST US
    From: Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@newwavecomm.net>
    Subject: I got the Slick manual, thanks!
    I got the Slick manual, thanks! -- ---- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my website at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/


    Message 24


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    Time: 10:25:14 PM PST US
    From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com>
    Subject: slick manual
    let try this again


    Message 25


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    Time: 11:45:02 PM PST US
    From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Slick Mags
    MIKE we would all love to have fadec systems for our aircraft. and electronic ignition. but it comes to a comfort factor. electronics fail in worse case mode 95% of the time. while mags when they fail tend to do so slowly and if you know what to look for you can find it before total failure. the next problem with fadec type controls is lightnining, have a billion volts of electricity running thru your electronics, can cause a bad day. i have seen holes as big as 1/2 inch burned in to commercial airframes from this. but to be honest most just look like arc hits and can be drilled out with a 3/16 bit. with proper burnin and testing electronic work great, but i don't have enough history with the E+P mags, to say which way i would go. i do know that this testing is expensive and it has taken slick and bendix many years to develope like type equipment. ie get it right enough to go to market. i like the idea i do not know yet if i like the approach. So what would the great slick hater do if it was my aircraft. if i won the lotto i would buy a gulfstream and never have to worry about slicks again, but since this will not happen, and i don't have an extra 2400$ lieing around to change to bendix. inspection is the way to go. look at it and cleanup the carbon dust that will prolong the life of your mag more then anything else. figure 100 hr inspection include the mag for cleanup and inspection. if you start to see carbon tracking/ arc damage it is time to replace/repair. that is the time you should start thinking about replacement i wish that could help you more with the e+p mags, but with my limited experience with them, i can only say that it is an idea whose time has come but lets see if they really work in the field. rick --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com> wrote: > From: Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com> > Subject: Slick Mags > To: rickpegser@yahoo.com > Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 5:20 PM > Rick > > Thanks for your last reply to the list. It sure changed my > impression of you. Everyone has bad days so no big deal. > > Now that you have posted a more reasoned response as to why > you do not like the Slick Mags I have a question for ya. I > have new Slick's on my RV6 about a year old with 70 > hours more or less on them. I pulled them apart with a > A&P (a young and relative new A&P but he has more > experience than me) and they did not look bad (again I am > NEW at this). Some ware on the brushes but it was hard to > determine from the drawing in the SB if it was bad or > not.Pulled apart some mags that were before the SB (about > 100 hr on them) and mine looked better so I decided to put > mine back into service. HOWEVER it does concern me that they > are having these problems. Not sure what it takes to switch > over to the Bendix but the thought of chucking over $1000 in > a year is not sitting well with me. My plan at the moment is > pull them apart ever 100 or annual whichever comes first. > Next time with the help of a more experienced A&P. OK my > question is what experience (if any) do you > have with those E & P-mags (http://www.emagair.com/). > If I need to throw away all that money I want to "up > grade" to something better. And at lest from reading > those seem like the simplest upgrade to electronic ignition. > > I ask your opinion because there at the end you had (to me) > a reasoned and well thought reason for your opinion. > > Mike Divan > N64GH - RV6,flying :) > EAA - 577486 > FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!




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