RV-List Digest Archive

Tue 09/02/08


Total Messages Posted: 20



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:22 AM - Re: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133... (Rvbuilder1@AOL.COM)
     2. 05:19 AM - Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (Ralph E. Capen)
     3. 05:23 AM - Re: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133... (Rvbuilder1@AOL.COM)
     4. 05:30 AM - Re: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133...#hVvCOp4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133... (Mike Schulz)
     5. 09:09 AM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (Ed Holyoke)
     6. 09:13 AM - RV-6 / 6a kit for sale (Scott Kuebler)
     7. 09:18 AM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (Ralph E. Capen)
     8. 11:48 AM - Mag Gear removal technique (emrath@comcast.net)
     9. 12:09 PM - Re: Mag Gear removal technique (Ollie Washburn)
    10. 05:38 PM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (bert murillo)
    11. 05:38 PM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (RALPH HOOVER)
    12. 05:57 PM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (Vanremog@aol.com)
    13. 06:00 PM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (Vanremog@aol.com)
    14. 07:32 PM - Re: Slick mags/bendix mags (tcolson)
    15. 08:16 PM - Re: Slick mags/bendix mags (RV6 Flyer)
    16. 09:17 PM - Re: Slick mags/bendix mags (RICHARD MILLER)
    17. 09:40 PM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (mr.gsun@gmail.com)
    18. 09:40 PM - Re: Builder Available! (RICHARD MILLER)
    19. 09:53 PM - Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 (Vanremog@aol.com)
    20. 11:11 PM - Re: Builder Available! (Jerry Springer)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:22:31 AM PST US
    From: Rvbuilder1@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133...
    In a message dated 8/31/2008 11:19:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, MLWynn@aol.com writes: In a message dated 8/30/2008 12:42:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bill@vondane.com writes: --> RV-List message posted by: bill@vondane.com I'm sorry.....but due to the fact that I am now getting over 2000 spam/junk emails per week I am now forced to use a verification program to keep my inbox from filling up... So.....just this one time I need you to verify you are a human before I get your massage... To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line ======================== ____________________________________ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal _here_ (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:19:34 AM PST US
    From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    Folks, I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake system. It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. Will this stuff eat plastic? I can get an empty milk jug and clean/dry it out for storage. The alternative is a few quart mason jars - but then I'm worrid about the seals on the lids. What have you folks done with your leftover brake fluid? Thanks, Ralph Capen


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:23:55 AM PST US
    From: Rvbuilder1@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133...
    In a message dated 9/2/2008 6:24:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Rvbuilder1@aol.com writes: In a message dated 8/31/2008 11:19:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, MLWynn@aol.com writes: In a message dated 8/30/2008 12:42:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bill@vondane.com writes: I'm sorry.....but due to the fact that I am now getting over 2000 spam/junk emails per week I am now forced to use a verification program to keep my inbox from filling up... So.....just this one time I need you to verify you are a human before I get your massage... To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line ======================== ____________________________________ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal _here_ (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) . ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ____________________________________ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal _here_ (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:30:41 AM PST US
    From: "Mike Schulz" <mike@profishenterprises.com>
    Subject: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133...#hVvCOp4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133...
    ======================= Mike Schulz Pro Fish Enterprises, LLC 4878 Edgewater Drive Mound, MN 55364 612-590-8604 _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rvbuilder1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 5:21 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Your email requires verification verify#hVvC0p4JjlzN6twbdu6HC133... In a message dated 8/31/2008 11:19:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, MLWynn@aol.com writes: In a message dated 8/30/2008 12:42:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bill@vondane.com writes: I'm sorry.....but due to the fact that I am now getting over 2000 spam/junk emails per week I am now forced to use a verification program to keep my inbox from filling up... So.....just this one time I need you to verify you are a human before I get your massage... To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line ======================== _____ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal <http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047> here. ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?RV-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal <http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047> here.


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:09:58 AM PST US
    From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    I left mine in the can and made only two small holes for dispensing and vent which I plugged with sheetmetal screws. I keep the can in a plastic storage box along with the modified garden sprayer that I use for brake bleeding. Pax, Ed Holyoke Ralph E. Capen wrote: > > Folks, > > I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake system. > It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. > > Will this stuff eat plastic? I can get an empty milk jug and clean/dry it out for storage. The alternative is a few quart mason jars - but then I'm worrid about the seals on the lids. > > What have you folks done with your leftover brake fluid? > > Thanks, > Ralph Capen > > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:13:02 AM PST US
    From: "Scott Kuebler" <scottam65@gmail.com>
    Subject: RV-6 / 6a kit for sale
    RV-6 / 6a kit for sale. Empennage: Complete except for fiberglass tips. Includes electric elevator trim kit. All parts are alodined and primed with Marhyde primer. Wings & Phlogiston Spar: Both skeletons fully assembled. Top skins riveted. Both tanks are complete and sealed. Flaps and ailerons complete, but not fitted. Includes electric aileron trim kit. All parts are alodined and primed with Deft epoxy primer (Mil-P-23377G). Both kits are the pre-punched versions purchased in 1997 & 1998 by myself. Construction is excellent. Preview plans and Orndorff videos are included for both kits. Detailed photos are available. Must sell. The first $3750 takes it all. Buyer arranges transportation. If all items were purchased separately the price would be more than $6500 for the unassembled kits. Regards, Scott Kuebler Buffalo, NY 716-510-0318- cell scottam65@gmail.com


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:18:59 AM PST US
    From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    Simple and elegant! -----Original Message----- >From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net> >Sent: Sep 2, 2008 12:08 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 > > >I left mine in the can and made only two small holes for dispensing and >vent which I plugged with sheetmetal screws. I keep the can in a plastic >storage box along with the modified garden sprayer that I use for brake >bleeding. > >Pax, > >Ed Holyoke > >Ralph E. Capen wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake system. >> It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. >> >> Will this stuff eat plastic? I can get an empty milk jug and clean/dry it out for storage. The alternative is a few quart mason jars - but then I'm worrid about the seals on the lids. >> >> What have you folks done with your leftover brake fluid? >> >> Thanks, >> Ralph Capen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:48:08 AM PST US
    From: emrath@comcast.net
    Subject: Mag Gear removal technique
    Can anyone advise me how to remove the nut that holds the drive gear on a Bendix mag? Turning the nut, turns the mag and there doesn't seem to be anyway of holding the mag from turning and I sure as heck don't want to risk damaging the gear which will be mounted to an electronic ign module. Thanks for any ideas. Marty RV-6A. <html><body> <DIV>Can anyone advise me how to remove the nut that holds the&nbsp;drive&nbsp;gear on a Bendix mag?&nbsp; Turning the nut, turns the mag and there doesn't seem to be anyway of holding the mag from turning and I sure as heck don't want to risk damaging the gear which will be mounted to an electronic ign module.&nbsp; &nbsp;Thanks for any ideas.</DIV> <DIV>Marty RV-6A.</DIV> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> </b></font></pre></body></html>


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:09:57 PM PST US
    From: "Ollie Washburn" <ollie6a@embarqmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Mag Gear removal technique
    Use an impact socket. Ollie On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:44 PM, <emrath@comcast.net> wrote: > Can anyone advise me how to remove the nut that holds the drive gear on a > Bendix mag? Turning the nut, turns the mag and there doesn't seem to be > anyway of holding the mag from turning and I sure as heck don't want to risk > damaging the gear which will be mounted to an electronic ign module. > Thanks for any ideas. > Marty RV-6A. > > * > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:38:01 PM PST US
    From: bert murillo <robertrv607@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    Use a medium size, OIl Can, the one you push down a lever to push the oil out, connect the plastic tube to it, and the end to the valve then use the lever to fill the tube to the breaks etc... the rest of fluid leave it in the Original Container, tight the cap that is it.. I think this is what I did.. If you have any question ,write out side the list. good luck\\ bert rv6a --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net> wrote: > From: Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net> > Subject: RV-List: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 > To: "rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com> > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 8:00 AM > <recapen@earthlink.net> > > Folks, > > I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put > some in the brake system. > It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - > without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I > won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system > so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. > > Will this stuff eat plastic? I can get an empty milk jug > and clean/dry it out for storage. The alternative is a few > quart mason jars - but then I'm worrid about the seals > on the lids. > > What have you folks done with your leftover brake fluid? > > Thanks, > Ralph Capen > > > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 05:38:02 PM PST US
    From: "RALPH HOOVER" <hooverra@verizon.net>
    Subject: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    I used a couple of small holes ~1/8"on one side and one on the other filled the brakes with a pump oil can and then soldered the holes closed. Ralph & Laura Hoover RV7A N527LR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 8:01 AM Subject: RV-List: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282 Folks, I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake system. It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. Will this stuff eat plastic? I can get an empty milk jug and clean/dry it out for storage. The alternative is a few quart mason jars - but then I'm worrid about the seals on the lids. What have you folks done with your leftover brake fluid? Thanks, Ralph Capen


    Message 12


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    Time: 05:57:56 PM PST US
    From: Vanremog@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    In a message dated 9/2/2008 5:39:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, hooverra@verizon.net writes: I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake system. It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. Will this stuff eat plastic? Keep in mind that, despite its being designated as brake fluid, this is "aircraft" brake fluid, not "automobile" brake fluid. It is actually a general purpose hydraulic fluid that just happens to be used in many light aircraft brake systems. Beyond that it has no similarity whatsoever to automotive brake fluids of any DOT designation. Because they are not hygroscopic, as are the DOT 3 and 4 fluids, store your MIL-PRF and the MIL-H fluids essentially the same way you would normal lubricating oils. N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 900hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


    Message 13


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    Time: 06:00:41 PM PST US
    From: Vanremog@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    In a message dated 9/2/2008 5:39:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, hooverra@verizon.net writes: I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake system. It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or way to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. Will this stuff eat plastic? and it doesn't eat any container plastic that I am aware of. N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 900hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:32:22 PM PST US
    From: "tcolson" <tcolson@cedar-rapids.net>
    Subject: Re: Slick mags/bendix mags
    There is a known Bendix (S4LN-20) issue on O-360s with certain aluminum props. Lycoming even made a mag isolator to rubber damp the right mag from the engine drive gear. This is on some Piper singles. In 1100 hours on my RV6A with an O-360 and Sensenich prop I have had 3 timing gear faults, 1 Capacitor fault, 1 Mag shaft breaking in half, and decided to throw in the towel when the mounting ear started to crack. I had about 200 Hours operation per fix. Believe it or not , the mag shaft breaking in half still left the unit operational. Can't say that about the capacitor or timing gears. The Left Mag has never failed working flawlessly for all 1100 hours. I would like to know if anyone else has seen this on their RVs and an FYI to those planning to use this mag with their sensenich prop. I don't know if there is an issue with my engine or just the same problem Piper once had. I now have a lightspeed on the right side with about 70 Hours. It works about the same as the Bendix Mag on the left. Rgds Tom Olson ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Heathco To: rv-list Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 8:25 AM Subject: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix mags My 2 cents. I had bendix on my cherokee, rt failed while truning base, scared the crap out of me initially, have had 2 bendix go bad on my initial engine on my 6A, one which had only 20 hrs on overhaul. Relitivly low time. I have slicks on the relativly low time used engine I installed 3 anuals back, nary a peap of trouble. timing spot on all trhee anualls. Guess what my favorite brand is? Charlie Heathco


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:16:37 PM PST US
    From: RV6 Flyer <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Slick mags/bendix mags
    S4LN20 and S4LN21 both ran 2=2C100 hours and were removed working. I am th e guy that overhauled both of them before putting them on my RV-6 11 years ago. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell=2C 2=2C159 + Flying Hours So. CA=2C USA From: tcolson@cedar-rapids.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix mags There is a known Bendix (S4LN-20) issue on O-360s with certain aluminum props. Lycoming even made a mag isolator to rubber damp the right mag from the engine drive gear. This is on some Piper singles. In 1100 hours on my RV6A with an O-360 and Sensenich prop I have had 3 timing gear faults=2C 1 Capacitor fault=2C 1 Mag shaft breaking in half=2C and decided to throw in the towel when the mounting ear started to crack. I had about 200 Hours operation per fix. Believe it or not =2C the mag shaft breaking in half still left the unit operational. Can't say that about the capacitor or timing gears. The Left Mag has never failed working flawlessly for all 1100 hours. I would like to know if anyone else has seen this on their RVs and an FYI to those planning to use this mag with their sensen ich prop. I don't know if there is an issue with my engine or just the same problem Piper once had. I now have a lightspeed on the right side with about 70 Hours. It works about the same as the Bendix Mag on the left. Rgds Tom Olson ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Heathco To: rv-list Sent: Monday=2C September 01=2C 2008 8:25 AM Subject: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix mags My 2 cents. I had bendix on my cherokee=2C rt failed while truning base=2C scared the crap out of me initially=2C have had 2 bendix go bad on my initial engine on my 6A=2C one which had only 20 hrs on overhaul. Relitivly low time. I have slicks on the relativly low time used engine I installed 3 anuals back=2C nary a peap of trouble. timing s pot on all trhee anualls. Guess what my favorite brand is? Charlie Heathco href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.co m/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD with Win dows=AE.


    Message 16


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    Time: 09:17:34 PM PST US
    From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Slick mags/bendix mags
    i just rechecked the last ten years of bendix service bulletins, and not counting the known inpluse problem, and cap problems both that where solved and paid for by tmc, there was a couple of installation issues, but that was not a tmc/bendix fault. slick has yet to pay for any of the problems that has been created by thier issues and they have known about the problem for the last two years, yet still keep selling a defective product. individual airframes and equipment can cause a harmonic issue, if a vibration is introduced into the airframe that is at the natural resonant freq, of the part, the part will explode. is this a problem of the engine manufacture, yes and no. the engine manufacture knows what freqs have to be avoided. and the airframe manufacture is given this info. it is not up to the engine manufacturer to test all installs that the airframe types do. tmc went after this harmonic and solved it. it was not a magneto problem, it was a system vibration problem. it was limited a unique installation, that was poorly tested by the manufacturer. so this is not a problem to blame on tmc it is a problem to blame on piper. so before you start to throw blame around know what caused the failure. rick --- On Tue, 9/2/08, RV6 Flyer <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com> wrote: > From: RV6 Flyer <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix mags > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 8:15 PM > S4LN20 and S4LN21 both ran 2,100 hours and were removed > working. I am the guy that overhauled both of them before > putting them on my RV-6 11 years ago. > > Gary A. Sobek > > "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, > > 2,159 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA > > From: tcolson@cedar-rapids.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix mags > Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:31:11 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > There is a known Bendix (S4LN-20) issue on O-360s > with certain aluminum props. Lycoming even made a mag > isolator to rubber > damp the right mag from the engine drive gear. This is on > some Piper > singles. In 1100 hours on my RV6A > with an O-360 and Sensenich prop I have had 3 timing gear > faults, 1 > Capacitor fault, 1 Mag shaft breaking in half, and decided > to throw in the towel > when the mounting ear started to crack. I had about 200 > Hours operation > per fix. Believe it or not , the mag shaft breaking in > half still > left the unit operational. Can't say that about the > capacitor or > timing gears. > > The Left Mag has never failed working flawlessly > for all 1100 hours. > > I would like to know if anyone else has seen this > on their RVs and an FYI to those planning to use this mag > with their sensenich > prop. I don't know if there is an issue with my engine > or just the same > problem Piper once had. > > I now have a lightspeed on the right side with > about 70 Hours. It works about the same as the Bendix Mag > on the > left. > > Rgds > Tom Olson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Charles Heathco > > To: rv-list > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 8:25 > AM > Subject: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix > mags > > > My 2 cents. I had bendix on my cherokee, rt > failed while truning base, scared the crap out of me > initially, have had 2 > bendix go bad on my initial engine on my 6A, one which > had only 20 hrs on > overhaul. Relitivly low time. I have slicks on the > relativly low time > used engine I installed 3 anuals back, nary a peap of > trouble. timing spot on > all trhee anualls. Guess what my favorite brand is? > Charlie > Heathco > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Be the filmmaker you always wanted to belearn how to > burn a DVD with Windows.


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:40:22 PM PST US
    From: mr.gsun@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    I've got a big can of this Hi temp brake fluid and was wondering the same thing. Now I know what to do. Thanks... While I'm waiting for my annual to roll around (which is when I was going to replace caliper o-rings and flush out the original fluid), I notice that my reservoir is low. Can I top it off with the hi temp stuff and then flush it all out in a few months? On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 5:59 PM, <Vanremog@aol.com> wrote: > In a message dated 9/2/2008 5:39:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > hooverra@verizon.net writes: > > I have my can of brake fluid and am ready to at least put some in the brake > system. > It came in a bigger than coffee can sized container - without a spout or > way > to reseal after opening. I know I won't use the entire gallon for my 6A > dual brake system so I need to figure out what to do with the rest. > > Will this stuff eat plastic? > > and it doesn't eat any container plastic that I am aware of. > > > *N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 900hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)* > > > ------------------------------ > It's only a deal if it's where *you* want to go. Find your travel deal * > here* <http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047>. > > * > > * > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:40:26 PM PST US
    From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    jerry i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued. rick --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote: > From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM > <jsflyrv@verizon.net> > > I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit > jealous of home > builders. Some are even down right hostile > and do not think it is right that we should be able to work > on an > aircraft when they have spent a sizable > amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now > this statment > really gets me going. > > "Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in > 2001 to become a > legitimate "Real" kit builder. " > > Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"? > > Jerry > > > > > Ralph Finch wrote: > > > I'm really not sure what game you're playing. > > I went to a workshop/build class that started with my > empennage in kit > > form and after 6 days of instruction and building left > with a nearly > > completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45 > hours each on the > > building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp. > An interesting > > data point, because the other builders I've talked > to that did all the > > emp work themselves and also of course were > self-taught took several > > times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show > that hours of > > building is very dependent on skill and prior > knowledge. > > You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic: > extremely devoted > > to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who > do not share > > your level of commitment to that cause. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of John Cox > > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > Okay, I'll play Ralph. > > > > You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, > the hired > > professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > > 51.00% of the > > assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the > manufacturer of parts did > > <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. > Step to the window > > for you Lottery Winnings. > > > > The FAA is working with manufacturer's of > approved OBAM kit > > aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing > kit approvals > > will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% > for Plans > > built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) > the > > documentation of Build Assist will require a new > more specific > > written log of Builder Assist (not just hired > guns). Under the new > > rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the > work that you > > personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that > you also might > > want the DAR to process your request to be called > a Repairman so > > you can complete Conditional Inspections. > > > > Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the > RV-10 more like > > 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 > hours spread over > > two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the > floor maybe 40 > > hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the > most physical work > > you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to > catch your > > breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now > lost and confused > > how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours > somewhere) of build > > other than the exhausting effort to write the > check for the TWTT > > program. Now don't read too much into the > above math. Marc Cook, > > Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and > Ethical) with > > the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van > sells more kits, > > Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more > interiors, the US > > aviation industry sells more hardware. life is > GOOD. > > > > You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many > builders will acquire > > more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of > effort will > > cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying > Hand". I have tried to > > buy some of them, boy was that an insult. > > > > Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side > in 2001 to > > become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. > Quit my career, attended > > A&P school (at more than 50 years old), > completed Orals and > > Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, > have help > > scores of builders and went to work for the > airlines to gain even > > more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM > builders are > > prideful and think they have a handle on the > knowledge to maintain > > their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it > to John Q. > > Public with a willingness to write a check in that > pursuit. I will > > offer than many do little to show any DAR that > they know squat as > > to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life > altering > > mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, > don't go ballistic > > here.I am reading about that damned Slick Mag > bulletin with my > > other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well > until the money > > created the "Professional Build Assist". > Oh by the way, the > > Professional field it is totally unregulated and > uses untrained > > Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I > just have trouble > > swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are > helping this avocation > > that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue > what my heart > > told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to > go out the door > > with. > > > > The problem is not with you the builder. It is > with the > > bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs > who would sell out > > their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear > more dialog on how > > much time, how much money and how many questions > the typical OBAM > > kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals > Exam in front of > > their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if > the OBAM builder could > > match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with > those damned A > > & Ps that I resemble in my day job. > > > > My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other > window and make > > it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does > >51.0% , tip > > your hat and smile you are a Builder/Aviator of > the First Order. > > if you can't complete a comprehensive review > by the DAR on the > > skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that > coveted Repairman > > Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a > comprehensive safety > > inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a > Repairman > > Certificate. It is all about review of correctly > processed FAA > > mandated paperwork. > > > > As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, > telling myself > > "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut > Up, Smile and help by > > pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower > the accident rate > > for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For > those guys and > > gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary > Aircraft leave us > > struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in > conversations with > > respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have > the best > > interests of their family, their community and all > of us at stake. > > Professionals please leave the arena. > > > > Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make > courtesy comment > > to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change. > > > > John Cox > > > > Do not Archive > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Ralph Finch > > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft > owner did only 10% > > of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% > minimum. > > > > In the class or workshop that I took, it was > 50-50, there was one > > pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was > not normal, > > usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all > worked like dogs > > the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to > catch my breath > > the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I > hadn't done so > > much physical work for decades. > > > > I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, > squeezing, > > grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I > didn't know > > squat going in. The only thing I didn't get > was time puzzling > > through the plans and figuring things out, there > was just no time > > for that. We amateurs came out with real, new > skills and > > well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my > garage with help > > from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in > town who are also > > building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a > huge help and > > confidence builder for guys like me, who don't > have any handyman > > background at all. I didn't even own a shop > vac! > > > > The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I > don't understand > > how they're still in business. Why the FAA has > to promulgate new > > amateur rules instead of enforcing the current > ones is a mystery > > to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate > new rules > > allowing the completely pro-built experimental > aircraft but > > demanding very high, factory-like build standards > and of course no > > repairman's certificate for the owner. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of John Cox > > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > > If the owner is always working and doing 10% > of the build and > > the other six builder assist employees (ie > TWTT) do 90% of the > > build, but the owner was learning by watching, > listening and > > writing a check, do I conclude that you think > this qualifies? > > > > The wide spread misunderstanding provides a > solid base for the > > FAA to implement a new policy. > > > > I still love those guys toiling in their > garage with little > > outside assistance who pose questions and > become the intent > > and integrity of this great ole abused rule. > > > > John Cox > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > > > >http://forums.matronics.com > > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > > > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:53:18 PM PST US
    From: Vanremog@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Storing unused MIL-PRF-83282
    In a message dated 9/2/2008 9:41:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, mr.gsun@gmail.com writes: While I'm waiting for my annual to roll around (which is when I was going to replace caliper o-rings and flush out the original fluid), I notice that my reservoir is low. Can I top it off with the hi temp stuff and then flush it all out in a few months? The new MIL-PRF is fully compatible with the MIL-H although a combination of the two will result in degraded temperature performance from the full MIL-PRF. Stock Nitrile (Buna-n) seals are also compatible with the MIL-PRF although Viton are superior for high temp performance and should be installed in the caliper pistons for best results when switching to the MIL-PRF. N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 900hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:11:39 PM PST US
    From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Builder Available!
    Picky picky picky would you have rather I had said A&P? do not archive RICHARD MILLER wrote: > >jerry > >i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued. >rick > > >--- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote: > > > >>From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM >><jsflyrv@verizon.net> >> >>I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit >>jealous of home >>builders. Some are even down right hostile >>and do not think it is right that we should be able to work >>on an >>aircraft when they have spent a sizable >>amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now >>this statment >>really gets me going. >> >>"Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in >>2001 to become a >>legitimate "Real" kit builder. " >> >>Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"? >> >>Jerry >> >> >> >> >>Ralph Finch wrote: >> >> >> >>>I'm really not sure what game you're playing. >>>I went to a workshop/build class that started with my >>> >>> >>empennage in kit >> >> >>>form and after 6 days of instruction and building left >>> >>> >>with a nearly >> >> >>>completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45 >>> >>> >>hours each on the >> >> >>>building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp. >>> >>> >>An interesting >> >> >>>data point, because the other builders I've talked >>> >>> >>to that did all the >> >> >>>emp work themselves and also of course were >>> >>> >>self-taught took several >> >> >>>times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show >>> >>> >>that hours of >> >> >>>building is very dependent on skill and prior >>> >>> >>knowledge. >> >> >>>You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic: >>> >>> >>extremely devoted >> >> >>>to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who >>> >>> >>do not share >> >> >>>your level of commitment to that cause. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On >>> >>> >>Behalf Of John Cox >> >> >>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >>> >>> Okay, I'll play Ralph. >>> >>> You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, >>> >>> >>the hired >> >> >>> professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > >>> >>> >>51.00% of the >> >> >>> assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the >>> >>> >>manufacturer of parts did >> >> >>> <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. >>> >>> >>Step to the window >> >> >>> for you Lottery Winnings. >>> >>> The FAA is working with manufacturer's of >>> >>> >>approved OBAM kit >> >> >>> aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing >>> >>> >>kit approvals >> >> >>> will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% >>> >>> >>for Plans >> >> >>> built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) >>> >>> >>the >> >> >>> documentation of Build Assist will require a new >>> >>> >>more specific >> >> >>> written log of Builder Assist (not just hired >>> >>> >>guns). Under the new >> >> >>> rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the >>> >>> >>work that you >> >> >>> personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that >>> >>> >>you also might >> >> >>> want the DAR to process your request to be called >>> >>> >>a Repairman so >> >> >>> you can complete Conditional Inspections. >>> >>> Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the >>> >>> >>RV-10 more like >> >> >>> 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 >>> >>> >>hours spread over >> >> >>> two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the >>> >>> >>floor maybe 40 >> >> >>> hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the >>> >>> >>most physical work >> >> >>> you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to >>> >>> >>catch your >> >> >>> breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now >>> >>> >>lost and confused >> >> >>> how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours >>> >>> >>somewhere) of build >> >> >>> other than the exhausting effort to write the >>> >>> >>check for the TWTT >> >> >>> program. Now don't read too much into the >>> >>> >>above math. Marc Cook, >> >> >>> Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and >>> >>> >>Ethical) with >> >> >>> the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van >>> >>> >>sells more kits, >> >> >>> Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more >>> >>> >>interiors, the US >> >> >>> aviation industry sells more hardware. life is >>> >>> >>GOOD. >> >> >>> You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many >>> >>> >>builders will acquire >> >> >>> more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of >>> >>> >>effort will >> >> >>> cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying >>> >>> >>Hand". I have tried to >> >> >>> buy some of them, boy was that an insult. >>> >>> Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side >>> >>> >>in 2001 to >> >> >>> become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. >>> >>> >>Quit my career, attended >> >> >>> A&P school (at more than 50 years old), >>> >>> >>completed Orals and >> >> >>> Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, >>> >>> >>have help >> >> >>> scores of builders and went to work for the >>> >>> >>airlines to gain even >> >> >>> more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM >>> >>> >>builders are >> >> >>> prideful and think they have a handle on the >>> >>> >>knowledge to maintain >> >> >>> their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it >>> >>> >>to John Q. >> >> >>> Public with a willingness to write a check in that >>> >>> >>pursuit. I will >> >> >>> offer than many do little to show any DAR that >>> >>> >>they know squat as >> >> >>> to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life >>> >>> >>altering >> >> >>> mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, >>> >>> >>don't go ballistic >> >> >>> here.I am reading about that damned Slick Mag >>> >>> >>bulletin with my >> >> >>> other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well >>> >>> >>until the money >> >> >>> created the "Professional Build Assist". >>> >>> >>Oh by the way, the >> >> >>> Professional field it is totally unregulated and >>> >>> >>uses untrained >> >> >>> Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I >>> >>> >>just have trouble >> >> >>> swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are >>> >>> >>helping this avocation >> >> >>> that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue >>> >>> >>what my heart >> >> >>> told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to >>> >>> >>go out the door >> >> >>> with. >>> >>> The problem is not with you the builder. It is >>> >>> >>with the >> >> >>> bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs >>> >>> >>who would sell out >> >> >>> their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear >>> >>> >>more dialog on how >> >> >>> much time, how much money and how many questions >>> >>> >>the typical OBAM >> >> >>> kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals >>> >>> >>Exam in front of >> >> >>> their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if >>> >>> >>the OBAM builder could >> >> >>> match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with >>> >>> >>those damned A >> >> >>> & Ps that I resemble in my day job. >>> >>> My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other >>> >>> >>window and make >> >> >>> it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >>>51.0% , tip >>> your hat and smile you are a Builder/Aviator of >>> >>> >>the First Order. >> >> >>> if you can't complete a comprehensive review >>> >>> >>by the DAR on the >> >> >>> skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that >>> >>> >>coveted Repairman >> >> >>> Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a >>> >>> >>comprehensive safety >> >> >>> inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a >>> >>> >>Repairman >> >> >>> Certificate. It is all about review of correctly >>> >>> >>processed FAA >> >> >>> mandated paperwork. >>> >>> As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, >>> >>> >>telling myself >> >> >>> "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut >>> >>> >>Up, Smile and help by >> >> >>> pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower >>> >>> >>the accident rate >> >> >>> for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For >>> >>> >>those guys and >> >> >>> gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary >>> >>> >>Aircraft leave us >> >> >>> struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in >>> >>> >>conversations with >> >> >>> respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have >>> >>> >>the best >> >> >>> interests of their family, their community and all >>> >>> >>of us at stake. >> >> >>> Professionals please leave the arena. >>> >>> Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make >>> >>> >>courtesy comment >> >> >>> to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change. >>> >>> John Cox >>> >>> Do not Archive >>> >>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On >>> >>> >>Behalf Of Ralph Finch >> >> >>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >>> >>> Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft >>> >>> >>owner did only 10% >> >> >>> of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% >>> >>> >>minimum. >> >> >>> In the class or workshop that I took, it was >>> >>> >>50-50, there was one >> >> >>> pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was >>> >>> >>not normal, >> >> >>> usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all >>> >>> >>worked like dogs >> >> >>> the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to >>> >>> >>catch my breath >> >> >>> the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I >>> >>> >>hadn't done so >> >> >>> much physical work for decades. >>> >>> I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, >>> >>> >>squeezing, >> >> >>> grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I >>> >>> >>didn't know >> >> >>> squat going in. The only thing I didn't get >>> >>> >>was time puzzling >> >> >>> through the plans and figuring things out, there >>> >>> >>was just no time >> >> >>> for that. We amateurs came out with real, new >>> >>> >>skills and >> >> >>> well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my >>> >>> >>garage with help >> >> >>> from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in >>> >>> >>town who are also >> >> >>> building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a >>> >>> >>huge help and >> >> >>> confidence builder for guys like me, who don't >>> >>> >>have any handyman >> >> >>> background at all. I didn't even own a shop >>> >>> >>vac! >> >> >>> The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I >>> >>> >>don't understand >> >> >>> how they're still in business. Why the FAA has >>> >>> >>to promulgate new >> >> >>> amateur rules instead of enforcing the current >>> >>> >>ones is a mystery >> >> >>> to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate >>> >>> >>new rules >> >> >>> allowing the completely pro-built experimental >>> >>> >>aircraft but >> >> >>> demanding very high, factory-like build standards >>> >>> >>and of course no >> >> >>> repairman's certificate for the owner. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On >>> >>> >>Behalf Of John Cox >> >> >>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! >>> >>> If the owner is always working and doing 10% >>> >>> >>of the build and >> >> >>> the other six builder assist employees (ie >>> >>> >>TWTT) do 90% of the >> >> >>> build, but the owner was learning by watching, >>> >>> >>listening and >> >> >>> writing a check, do I conclude that you think >>> >>> >>this qualifies? >> >> >>> The wide spread misunderstanding provides a >>> >>> >>solid base for the >> >> >>> FAA to implement a new policy. >>> >>> I still love those guys toiling in their >>> >>> >>garage with little >> >> >>> outside assistance who pose questions and >>> >>> >>become the intent >> >> >>> and integrity of this great ole abused rule. >>> >>> John Cox >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com >>> >>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >>>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > >




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