---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/03/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:40 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Jim Sears) 2. 05:31 AM - RV6A for Sale (Gene Gottschalk) 3. 05:55 AM - Re: Slick mags/bendix mags (linn Walters) 4. 10:03 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Bob) 5. 11:09 AM - Re: Builder Available! (SteinAir, Inc.) 6. 11:43 AM - Re: Builder Available! (Bret Smith) 7. 01:03 PM - Composite class correct dates (Dave Saylor) 8. 03:00 PM - Re: Builder Available! (linn Walters) 9. 03:11 PM - Re: Builder Available! (linn Walters) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:55 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! >> i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look >> at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has >> to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone >> parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a >> flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa screwed the pooch here. >> Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost >> imposible situation. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our >> tickets. and not get sued. << If the new owner works with an A&P to inspect his/her airplane, the owner is going to be open to suggestions, for the most part. If not, you can kindly refuse to do the inspection. The A&P can point out those areas of concern and hopefully convince the owner to make changes that will make the airplane safer. I've helped an AB-DAR with some inspections and have found things like improper bolt and nut applications, etc that have bothered me enough that I suggested changes before flight. Even though I use aircraft grade wire and terminals, I've seen others who haven't. I would not worry as much about those items unless they started failing. Using softer grade hardware store bolts, etc in places were Mil spec bolts are needed would be a different story. An A&P's job does not have to be difficult. Most of the errors I've seen have been minor and would not promote an unsafe airplane. Personally, I'd rather have an A&P give me an honest assessment than to overlook things that can get me hurt, later. Of course, I would also appreciate an A&P who would not use his/her ticket as an approval to go hog wild crazy about fixing those things that don't need fixing, either. There should be a happy medium in there for both sides. Jim Sears in KY EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:18 AM PST US From: "Gene Gottschalk" Subject: RV-List: RV6A for Sale RV6A for sale Baltimore / Washington D.C. area Gene Gottschalk Work: 301 286-0151 Mobile: 410 303-2839 Non-prepunched. Complete documentation, photo album and builders logbook. Registered N700RV. Empennage: Completed except for some fiberglass. Wings: Left wing completed except for fiberglass. Right wing completed except for fiberglass and main skins, inverted fuel option, electric and manual flap actuator, Whalen wing-tip strobes and wiring harness, heated pitot, tie down rings, taxi and landing light kit. Fuselage: Completed in jig, ready to fit wings and gear and remove from jig to finish top and cockpit. Includes dual brake assemblies, two five-point Hooker aerobatic harnesses (including mounting details finished), dual entry steps, NACA vent kits, plumbing, and eyeball vents, sliding canopy, Panel circuit breaker/switches (with spares), all flight instruments, accelerometer, fuel gauges, firewall recess kit (installed). Includes custom-made metal fuselage jig. Finishing kit: Inventoried, not started. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:06 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Slick mags/bendix mags I sure wish you lived near me!!! My mag overhaul guys (locally) are dwindling due to old age. It looks like overhauling mags is a dying art. Linn RV6 Flyer wrote: > S4LN20 and S4LN21 both ran 2,100 hours and were removed working. I am > the guy that overhauled both of them before putting them on my RV-6 > 11 years ago. > > Gary A. Sobek > "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, > 2,159 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:11 AM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! Richard I have been reading your posts for a while now. You do have a predisposition against homebuilt aircraft, regardless of who built it. I am not an A&P/IA, but what forces you to sign off a barstool that uses autozone parts? And if you are forced to do so, why do you buckle to the pressure? Futhermore, what is wrong with autozone parts? The halogen light bulb I use for a landing light from autozone has never failed in 6 years of flying. But the landing light on the Citabria I used to fly would burn out every 25 hours? The parts that have failed on my aircraft have been certified parts, seldom if ever does a non certified part fail. Just my experience. For the record, never have I had an autozone part fail (landing lights, cockpit lights, fuses, wire terminals, battery terminals, solenoids, paint, fiberglass, resin, weatherseal, velcro, RTV, Locktite, primer, fusebox, etc (like anything else, they wear out, but don't fail prematurely). There probably is certified Velcro, but really, what's the point? And by your own posts, the Slick Mags, a certified part, is a piece of junk? If autozone sells an alternative that in the automobile field seldom if ever fails, why then would I want to put a certified piece of junk on my aircraft? In numerous posts you have mentioned how difficult your job is because of homebuilts that use non standard or non certified parts. I understand your concern. But, you are on what is mostly a homebuilt list telling us that the FAA should not allow homebuilts that are not certified to FAA standards, since they will eventually be sold to non-builders who will not be able to maintain them. You might find a more agreeable audience on a certified aircraft list rather than on a homebuilt list. Just my opinion, for what is that is worth, probably not much. Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" At 11:40 PM 9/2/08, you wrote: > >.... if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign >off the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no >rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am >stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. >i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an >experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible >position. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and >not get sued. rick ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:17 AM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder Available! Mainly what it comes down to here is education and knowledge. If you don't know the "rules" then perhaps one should learn them, because they are in fact quite clear....about what you can use and what you can't when and where on an experimental. Sure, some FAA people and some FSDO's aren't all that well educated, but the rules do exist. Each homebuilt that has been certificated has been manufactured by someone. That someone was issued Operating Limitations, and coupled with good knowledge of the FAR's and the 43.13 any A&P or IA should be able to work on one (because the aircraft did have a mfgr as well as an airworthiness certificate). Whether or not they are comfortable or knowledgeable enough to do so is what remains. It's kind of like some Avionics shops requiring people to have a certified altimeter or certified encoder to do a Transponder or Pitot Static check....that's just ignorance of the requirements. We have a number of A&P's on staff, a couple IA's, and we also are a certificated FAA 145 repair station. We are comfortable with Experimentals as well as certified stuff because we know it and we work hard to keep ourselves educated. The rules are different indeed, but not to the point where anyone should be scared. If you're that scared then I'd humbly suggest not working on them, be it airframe, engine, avionics or instruments. Last point, the second owner doesn't even need an IA to begin with, and many second or third owners don't even hire IA's.....again, goes to knowledge of the "rules". My 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein do not archive... >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 11:40 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! > > > >jerry > >i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you >are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the >aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no rules >that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in >the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. i think >the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental >aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not >jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued. >rick > > >--- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer wrote: > >> From: Jerry Springer >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM >> >> >> I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit >> jealous of home >> builders. Some are even down right hostile >> and do not think it is right that we should be able to work >> on an >> aircraft when they have spent a sizable >> amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now >> this statment >> really gets me going. >> >> "Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in >> 2001 to become a >> legitimate "Real" kit builder. " >> >> Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"? >> >> Jerry >> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:26 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! Bob, I am assuming that Richard is referring to inspecting homebuilt or OBAM aircraft that do not meet the standards of AC43-13. My feeling is that any aircraft that do not meet the minimum standards should NOT be signed-off, whether homebuilt or certificated. Bret Smith RV-9A "Wiring & FWF" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! > > Richard > > I have been reading your posts for a while now. You do have a > predisposition against homebuilt aircraft, regardless of who built it. I > am not an A&P/IA, but what forces you to sign off a barstool that uses > autozone parts? And if you are forced to do so, why do you buckle to the > pressure? > > Futhermore, what is wrong with autozone parts? The halogen light bulb I > use for a landing light from autozone has never failed in 6 years of > flying. But the landing light on the Citabria I used to fly would burn > out every 25 hours? > > The parts that have failed on my aircraft have been certified parts, > seldom if ever does a non certified part fail. Just my experience. For > the record, never have I had an autozone part fail (landing lights, > cockpit lights, fuses, wire terminals, battery terminals, solenoids, > paint, fiberglass, resin, weatherseal, velcro, RTV, Locktite, primer, > fusebox, etc (like anything else, they wear out, but don't fail > prematurely). There probably is certified Velcro, but really, what's the > point? > > And by your own posts, the Slick Mags, a certified part, is a piece of > junk? If autozone sells an alternative that in the automobile field > seldom if ever fails, why then would I want to put a certified piece of > junk on my aircraft? > > In numerous posts you have mentioned how difficult your job is because of > homebuilts that use non standard or non certified parts. I understand > your concern. But, you are on what is mostly a homebuilt list telling us > that the FAA should not allow homebuilts that are not certified to FAA > standards, since they will eventually be sold to non-builders who will not > be able to maintain them. You might find a more agreeable audience on a > certified aircraft list rather than on a homebuilt list. > > Just my opinion, for what is that is worth, probably not much. > > Bob > RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" > > > At 11:40 PM 9/2/08, you wrote: >> >>.... if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off >>the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that >>tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the >>possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa >>screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the >>i/a in an almost imposible position. we are not jealous, we just want to >>keep our tickets. and not get sued. > rick > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RV-List: Composite class correct dates I'm posting the correct dates again. Composites for RV-10s will be Saturday and Sunday, November 15 and 16. This course will provide an overview of the composite parts and techniques used on Van's Aircraft RV-10 kits. We will focus on correct materials and processes, fitting the composite top and doors, cowl, spinner, fairings, and other composite parts. You will recieve hands-on training to identify and use all necessary materials. Examples of completed and in-process assemblies will be available to view. We will be fitting and installing a cabin top. Weather permitting, we'll be giving RV-10 demo flights to as many interested parties as possible--indicate when you sign up if you're interested, first come, first served, no additional charge. Who: Harold Bunyi and Dave Saylor. Harold holds a BS in Aeronautical Engineering and built kitplane parts in the Phillipines for many years. He has worked at AirCrafters for 6 years and spends most of his day working with composites. I started working with composite kitplanes in 1998. I am an A&P/IA, and I have finished my personal RV-10 project, along with many other composite and aluminum projects. I recieved my BS in Aeronautics from San Jose State. When: November 15 & 16, 2008 8AM-4PM Saturday 8AM-3PM Sunday Where: AirCrafters LLC Watsonville Airport (KWVI) 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 www.AirCraftersLLC.com Class size is limited to 15 builders Cost for the course is $350 payable by cash, check or credit card. Please call or email to register. A 50% deposit is required before November 7. Balance due before class starts. Nearest major airport is San Jose International. 45 minute drive to KWVI. Best Lodging is Watsonville Comfort Inn: 831-728-2300. Ask for the airport discount. Other lodging is available nearby. Aircraft parking is available at AirCrafters. Please call if we can help with logistics. Many thanks for your interest, Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL www.AirCraftersLLC.com **************************************************************************** **************************** ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:54 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! SteinAir, Inc. wrote: > > Mainly what it comes down to here is education and knowledge. If you don't > know the "rules" then perhaps one should learn them, because they are in > fact quite clear....about what you can use and what you can't when and where > on an experimental. Sure, some FAA people and some FSDO's aren't all that > well educated, but the rules do exist. Stein, can you provide me with a link??? I've been told just the opposite ...... well, when my Pitts was being inspected he said "if you made the Pitts out of the cardboard from notepads ..... I'd have a problem". > Each homebuilt that has been > certificated has been manufactured by someone. That someone was issued > Operating Limitations, and coupled with good knowledge of the FAR's and the > 43.13 any A&P or IA should be able to work on one (because the aircraft did > have a mfgr as well as an airworthiness certificate). Whether or not they > are comfortable or knowledgeable enough to do so is what remains. It's kind > of like some Avionics shops requiring people to have a certified altimeter > or certified encoder to do a Transponder or Pitot Static check....that's > just ignorance of the requirements. We have a number of A&P's on staff, a > couple IA's, and we also are a certificated FAA 145 repair station. We are > comfortable with Experimentals as well as certified stuff because we know it > and we work hard to keep ourselves educated. The rules are different > indeed, but not to the point where anyone should be scared. If you're that > scared then I'd humbly suggest not working on them, be it airframe, engine, > avionics or instruments. > > Last point, the second owner doesn't even need an IA to begin with, and many > second or third owners don't even hire IA's.....again, goes to knowledge of > the "rules". > You forgot to add "All you need is an A&P to sign off the conditional inspection ..... unless you're the builder (which was implied). And the work doesn't have to be 'under supervision of' and A&P. > My 2 cents as usual! > So, I added a penny! Linn > Cheers, > Stein > > do not archive... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:59 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder Available! Bret Smith wrote: > > Bob, > I am assuming that Richard is referring to inspecting homebuilt or > OBAM aircraft that do not meet the standards of AC43-13. My feeling > is that any aircraft that do not meet the minimum standards should NOT > be signed-off, whether homebuilt or certificated. > > Bret Smith > RV-9A "Wiring & FWF" > Blue Ridge, GA > www.FlightInnovations.com Hmmm. I disagree .....a little. Since 43-13 was born, we've improved on a lot of the materials used for construction. Even invented new ones. I'd rather say that I would EXPECT construction to follow 43-13 ..... but remember that these are EXPERIMENTAL aircraft ..... and who are we to frown on anyones experiment??? My Pitts is pretty much per plans, and so will be my -10 ...... but I won't take kindly to negative comments because something I may do won't meet 43-13. Where's the 'experiment' in that??? Of course I'd welcome constructive criticism if I did something that could shorten my lifespan. My logic (outside of 43-13) may not be perfect. 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