Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:41 AM - Re: RV8A Weight and balance (Craig Gallenbach)
2. 07:36 AM - Re: RV8A Weight and balance (Gordon Smith)
3. 09:36 AM - Re: RV-8 (Bubblehead)
4. 12:57 PM - Re: rivets working (Rick Galati)
5. 01:59 PM - Re: RV8A Weight and balance (Tom Gummo)
6. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: rivets working (Charles Kuss)
7. 02:49 PM - RV-9A (e.ap)
8. 02:50 PM - RV-9A (e.ap)
9. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: rivets working (John Cox)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RV8A Weight and balance |
Thanks Carl.- I was hoping that my lighter prop and single battery would
make my plane less nose heavy.- After looking at the table of other RV8A
CGs, I'm going to recheck my wheel location measurements.- I'm pretty con
fident of the weights.
-
Craig
--- On Thu, 10/2/08, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@cox.net> wrote:
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV8A Weight and balance
Similar results for my 8A (two Odyssey 625 batteries mounded 6=94- 8=94 aft
of the firewall and a Hartzell CS prop).- I have a 10+ pound survival/to
ol kit on the rear baggage shelf that brings the CG inside the forward limi
t when solo.- When solo however I tend to also put a case of oil in rear
luggage compartment, unless of course I have other stuff to haul.-
-
The good news is I have had some real beefy boys in the back and the CG was
still well within limits. -At some point I may move one of the two batte
ries aft if I am taking the plane down for some other major modification.
- This is certainly not an operational problem.
-
For all other 8A builders using a parallel valve (I)O-360, recommend you co
nsider mounting your battery aft, or if you are a two battery ship one batt
ery aft and perhaps the other in the forward baggage compartment well.
-
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (450 hrs)
RV-10 (fuselage)
-
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Gallenbach
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV8A Weight and balance
-
I weighed my RV8A and was somewhat surprised at the results.- I have a Su
perior O-360 normally aspirated engine, Sensenich fixed pitch propeller, an
d forward mounted lightweight battery.- The empty weight worked out to 10
80 lb with a CG at 74.8" (as measured using a datum 70" forward of the lead
ing edge).- With only the pilot (220 lb) on board, I need between 20 and
30 lb of ballast in the rear baggage compartment to be within the acceptabl
e CG with maximum or minimum fuel respectively.- Is this typical for an 8
A?- With a fixed pitch propeller and lightweight battery I was expecting
to be not quite so nose heavy.- Have others had similar results?
-
Thanks in advance for your help.
-
Craig Gallenbach
RV8A, N184CG- ........ almost ready to fly - -http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution -
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV8A Weight and balance |
What is the builders experience regarding weight and balance for the RV-7A?
And, therefore, what is the consensus for battery location?
Gordon Smith
Message 3
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Deene - can you post a couple of pictures?
--------
John Dalman
Elburn, IL
RV-8 N247TD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7261#207261
Message 4
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| Subject: | RE: rivets working |
The RV has been around for some time now and over the years the basic desig
n has been tweaked, finessed and improved-as data from the field eventual
ly filtered back to the factory. -With thousands of examples built over a
couple of decades, sometimes dramatic-improvements to the basic design h
ave been made.- Also,-you have to take it as a given that some RV's are
constructed by true craftsmen while most builders are less skilled but sti
ll set the bar with an eye towards above average quality. Arguably, most RV
's are of average construction quality yet we know that at the lower end of
the spectrum- lesser quality built RV's continue to be assembled by less
skilled builders or builders builders possessed of the famous "build on" m
entality.
-
It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets occurring here or the
re, but it is quite another for such rivets to be dispassionately examined
by someone who really knows what to look for. Many theories have been poste
d on this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no exception. By and lar
ge, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part caused by improper rivet
use or builder error or a combination of both. A common rivet gage relied
upon and interpreted correctly by the builder would do more to prevent-sm
oking rivets than any other single action.
-
Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many rivet patterns
located on skins- seem to be marginal at best and tend towards being a bi
t too short. I observed early on that often times shooting such rivets coul
d cause the shop head to be almost swallowed by its dimpled hole already en
larged by the dimpling process. If a builder under sets such rivets, the-
builder is just asking for the under swelled rivets to work loose over time
and the same thing goes if the rivet is slightly overshot. What little is
left of an over shot-rivet shop head has precious little dimpled material
to grip onto. To help prevent both scenarios, I routinely install slightly
longer half-size rivets even though the plans may well call out a shorter
length for a particular stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A plans
-had even shorter -3 length rivet lengths occasionally called out yet I c
ould never accept that. -I refused to install-AD3-3 length rivets
anywhere period.
-
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2489/fw
f008editmt3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
-
Using a-rivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it instead of my e
yeballs, my experience has been it that is much more difficult to correctly
set an almost too short AD3 rivet than it is to set one that is just sligh
tly longer.- I routinely install slightly longer rivets even though the p
lans may well call out shorter lengths for a particular stack-up of materia
ls.-Example: The plans do not account for primer thickness.
-
One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas as I pounded awa
y on F-4=A2s, F15=A2s, and F18=A2s was that blue-print fastener length call
-outs are often in error and it is always up to the installer to verify the
correct grip length is used in any given situation. Later on, I-discover
ed that same familiar truth applies to RV construction practices as well.
-
Rick Galati
RV-6A "Darla"
RV-8 N308R
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV8A Weight and balance |
Go to Dan Checkoway's Weight and Balance Database
http://www.rvproject.com/wab/
Lots of people have recorded their WaB there.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Smith
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8A Weight and balance
What is the builders experience regarding weight and balance for the
RV-7A? And, therefore, what is the consensus for battery location?
Gordon Smith
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 3494 (20081003) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: rivets working |
I'll second Rick's opinion that Vans often (almost always on the 8A) calls out
rivets that are 1/2 size to short in length.
Charlie Kuss
--- On Fri, 10/3/08, Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RV-List: RE: rivets working
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:55 PM
>snipped
>
> It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets
> occurring here or there, but it is quite another for such
> rivets to be dispassionately examined by someone who really
> knows what to look for. Many theories have been posted on
> this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no exception.
> By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part
> caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a
> combination of both. A common rivet gage relied upon and
> interpreted correctly by the builder would do more to
> preventsmoking rivets than any other single action.
>
> Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many
> rivet patterns located on skins seem to be marginal at
> best and tend towards being a bit too short. I observed
> early on that often times shooting such rivets could cause
> the shop head to be almost swallowed by its dimpled hole
> already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder under
> sets such rivets, thebuilder is just asking for the under
> swelled rivets to work loose over time and the same thing
> goes if the rivet is slightly overshot. What little is left
> of an over shotrivet shop head has precious little dimpled
> material to grip onto. To help prevent both scenarios, I
> routinely install slightly longer half-size rivets even
> though the plans may well call out a shorter length for a
> particular stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A
> planshad even shorter -3 length rivet lengths occasionally
> called out yet I could never accept that. I refused to
> installAD3-3 length rivets
> anywhere period.
>
> [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2489/fwf008editmt3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
>
> Using arivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it
> instead of my eyeballs, my experience has been it that is
> much more difficult to correctly set an almost too short AD3
> rivet than it is to set one that is just slightly longer.
> I routinely install slightly longer rivets even though the
> plans may well call out shorter lengths for a particular
> stack-up of materials.Example: The plans do not account
> for primer thickness.
>
> One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas
> as I pounded away on F-4s, F15s, and F18s was that
> blue-print fastener length call-outs are often in error and
> it is always up to the installer to verify the correct grip
> length is used in any given situation. Later on,
> Idiscovered that same familiar truth applies to RV
> construction practices as well.
>
> Rick Galati
> RV-6A "Darla"
> RV-8 N308R
Message 7
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For Sale: (1) Empennage Kit, including Preview Plans and Electric Trim-
HS ready for final assembly. (2) Avery Tool 650pc. RV Builder's Kit-
many items never used. (3) 10 19oz. cans of MAR-HYDE Self Etching Primer.
Message 8
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For Sale: (1) 9A Empennage Kit, including Preview Plans and Electric
Trim- HS ready for final assembly. (2) Avery 650 pc. RV Builder's Kit-
many items never used. (3) 10 19oz. cans of MAR-HYDE Self Etching Primer
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: rivets working |
Rick, your closing statement is Dead On. It is always up to the
manufacturer/builder (not a computer CAD person) to determine the
correct rivet length. Once builders get proficient, if they desire to
do it right, the eye ball method of "rivet tail" to be bucked for the
diameter used will work quite well. One task which brings that home is
a double countersink rivet installation. On the manufactured head, the
depth of countersink comes into play but on the working end of the other
side, you must be dead on for length "beyond the group or the opposing
countersink will be Forever Shy or Proud.
Not all double countersinks can be shaved.
In EAA projects, the quality and standard is set by the Builder, not the
plans creator.
John Cox
EAA Tech Advisor
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 12:56 PM
Subject: RV-List: RE: rivets working
The RV has been around for some time now and over the years the basic
design has been tweaked, finessed and improved as data from the field
eventually filtered back to the factory. With thousands of examples
built over a couple of decades, sometimes dramatic improvements to the
basic design have been made. Also, you have to take it as a given that
some RV's are constructed by true craftsmen while most builders are less
skilled but still set the bar with an eye towards above average quality.
Arguably, most RV's are of average construction quality yet we know that
at the lower end of the spectrum lesser quality built RV's continue to
be assembled by less skilled builders or builders builders possessed of
the famous "build on" mentality.
It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets occurring here or
there, but it is quite another for such rivets to be dispassionately
examined by someone who really knows what to look for. Many theories
have been posted on this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no
exception. By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part
caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a combination of both.
A common rivet gage relied upon and interpreted correctly by the builder
would do more to prevent smoking rivets than any other single action.
Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many rivet
patterns located on skins seem to be marginal at best and tend towards
being a bit too short. I observed early on that often times shooting
such rivets could cause the shop head to be almost swallowed by its
dimpled hole already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder
under sets such rivets, the builder is just asking for the under swelled
rivets to work loose over time and the same thing goes if the rivet is
slightly overshot. What little is left of an over shot rivet shop head
has precious little dimpled material to grip onto. To help prevent both
scenarios, I routinely install slightly longer half-size rivets even
though the plans may well call out a shorter length for a particular
stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A plans had even shorter -3
length rivet lengths occasionally called out yet I could never accept
that. I refused to install AD3-3 length rivets anywhere period.
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2489/
fwf008editmt3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Using a rivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it instead of my
eyeballs, my experience has been it that is much more difficult to
correctly set an almost too short AD3 rivet than it is to set one that
is just slightly longer. I routinely install slightly longer rivets
even though the plans may well call out shorter lengths for a particular
stack-up of materials. Example: The plans do not account for primer
thickness.
One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas as I pounded
away on F-4=A2s, F15=A2s, and F18=A2s was that blue-print fastener
length call-outs are often in error and it is always up to the installer
to verify the correct grip length is used in any given situation. Later
on, I discovered that same familiar truth applies to RV construction
practices as well.
Rick Galati
RV-6A "Darla"
RV-8 N308R
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