---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/21/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? (Chuck Daus) 2. 07:49 AM - Re: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? (Bob J.) 3. 07:58 AM - Re: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? (Charles Kuss) 4. 09:03 AM - Re: Interior Painting - Power coating? When? (Jim Carey) 5. 09:57 AM - Re: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? (John Cox) 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? (Matt Dralle) 7. 02:38 PM - Re: Fiberglass epoxy of choice (Matt Dralle) 8. 02:46 PM - Re: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? (linn Walters) 9. 08:16 PM - Starter Contactor (partner14) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:07 AM PST US From: "Chuck Daus" Subject: RE: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Matt, I own/operate a powdercoating facility. There are many low E or low cure powders on the market (300 deg. F. temp for 12 minute cure) that would help with the heat treat issues. My biggest concern is weight. I would guess 15-25 lbs. With the lower cure temp I don't think distortion or artificially aging (heat treat) would be a big concern (the aluminum will age by itself over time any way). Some other concerns are the thickness; if you have any parts that fit together I am sure they will not. You could have the coater mask off these areas or have them give you some high temp. tape and you do it your self. Make sure the coater properly pretreats (degrease and etch and dry) your fuselage before applying the powder. Lastly, if for some reason your aircraft ever gets real hot the powder will burn and the fumes that powder gives off are very unpleasant. Oh, one more thing, powder hides cracks very well. Just a few things to consider, Chuck RV6A FWF Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:12 PM Subject: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Fellow RV-er's, There is a powercoating shop here in my town that has an oven large enough to put my whole RV-8 fuselage into it. I've been considering just having the whole inside powercoated for the durability, and sweet look. Lots of guys powercoat the instrument panel and obviously most of the steel parts come from Van's powercoated. But what are the upsides and downsides of powercoating all of the interior parts. I've used Variprime on most of the backsides of the interior parts, but I've left the occupant facing parts bare in prep for the powercoating. Will the powercoat chip off easily on the bend-y pieces? And when's the right time to take it down to the powercoaters? I would like to have most things riveted that need riveting before the coating like the forward deck over the instrument panel and the aft turtledeck, but these get riveted on pretty late in the building process. I would like to have all of the wiring and controls installed or at least fabbed and trial fitted before coating to avoid scratches. But again, once things are wired, is coating going to make a mess? Its not like the harnesses can really be removed once their installed... The other concern is the heat necessary to bake on the powercoating. I think its upwards of 450 degrees F. What impact will that temperature have on the various parts that go into the fuselage such as the aeronuts, plastic bushings, clamps, etc? I'm in quite a dilemma over this. I really want to wait as long as possible to avoid scratches and chips in the powercoating, but I don't want to wait too long and not be able to disassemble things to the point of making a good looking job. For example, the rear floor boards should probably be riveted down, but any screwed in panels should be removed. But riveting the floorboards is something I'd probably prefer to do the day before test flying... Thanks for any insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 # 82880 Trutrak Auto Pilot Servo and Aileron Electric Trim Install ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:46 AM PST US From: "Bob J." Subject: Re: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Matt, I have a friend that had his instrument panel powdercoated in his RV-6, thinking it would hold up better than paint He left the airplane outside on a trip and it rained heavily, and some rain droplets made it onto the panel. The panel has some permanent water stains on it now, apparently whatever powdercoat was used was not impervious to water. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Fellow RV-er's, > > There is a powercoating shop here in my town that has an oven large enough > to put my whole RV-8 fuselage into it. I've been considering just having > the whole inside powercoated for the durability, and sweet look. Lots of > guys powercoat the instrument panel and obviously most of the steel parts > come from Van's powercoated. But what are the upsides and downsides of > powercoating all of the interior parts. I've used Variprime on most of the > backsides of the interior parts, but I've left the occupant facing parts > bare in prep for the powercoating. Will the powercoat chip off easily on > the bend-y pieces? > > And when's the right time to take it down to the powercoaters? I would > like to have most things riveted that need riveting before the coating like > the forward deck over the instrument panel and the aft turtledeck, but these > get riveted on pretty late in the building process. I would like to have > all of the wiring and controls installed or at least fabbed and trial fitted > before coating to avoid scratches. But again, once things are wired, is > coating going to make a mess? Its not like the harnesses can really be > removed once their installed... > > The other concern is the heat necessary to bake on the powercoating. I > think its upwards of 450 degrees F. What impact will that temperature have > on the various parts that go into the fuselage such as the aeronuts, plastic > bushings, clamps, etc? > > I'm in quite a dilemma over this. I really want to wait as long as > possible to avoid scratches and chips in the powercoating, but I don't want > to wait too long and not be able to disassemble things to the point of > making a good looking job. For example, the rear floor boards should > probably be riveted down, but any screwed in panels should be removed. But > riveting the floorboards is something I'd probably prefer to do the day > before test flying... > > Thanks for any insight... > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 # 82880 > Trutrak Auto Pilot Servo and Aileron Electric Trim Install > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:07 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Matt, The big issue with powder coating or paint is the quality of the prep work. If the shop doesn't do great prep work, you will have a real mess on your hands. Charlie Kuss --- On Mon, 10/20/08, Matt Dralle wrote: > From: Matt Dralle > Subject: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? > To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 8:11 PM > > > > Fellow RV-er's, > > There is a powercoating shop here in my town that has an > oven large enough to put my whole RV-8 fuselage into it. > I've been considering just having the whole inside > powercoated for the durability, and sweet look. Lots of > guys powercoat the instrument panel and obviously most of > the steel parts come from Van's powercoated. But what > are the upsides and downsides of powercoating all of the > interior parts. I've used Variprime on most of the > backsides of the interior parts, but I've left the > occupant facing parts bare in prep for the powercoating. > Will the powercoat chip off easily on the bend-y pieces? > > And when's the right time to take it down to the > powercoaters? I would like to have most things riveted that > need riveting before the coating like the forward deck over > the instrument panel and the aft turtledeck, but these get > riveted on pretty late in the building process. I would > like to have all of the wiring and controls installed or at > least fabbed and trial fitted before coating to avoid > scratches. But again, once things are wired, is coating > going to make a mess? Its not like the harnesses can really > be removed once their installed... > > The other concern is the heat necessary to bake on the > powercoating. I think its upwards of 450 degrees F. What > impact will that temperature have on the various parts that > go into the fuselage such as the aeronuts, plastic bushings, > clamps, etc? > > I'm in quite a dilemma over this. I really want to > wait as long as possible to avoid scratches and chips in the > powercoating, but I don't want to wait too long and not > be able to disassemble things to the point of making a good > looking job. For example, the rear floor boards should > probably be riveted down, but any screwed in panels should > be removed. But riveting the floorboards is something > I'd probably prefer to do the day before test flying... > > Thanks for any insight... > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 # 82880 > Trutrak Auto Pilot Servo and Aileron Electric Trim Install > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:23 AM PST US From: "Jim Carey" Subject: RE: RV-List: Interior Painting - Power coating? When? Hi MATT. I have been powder coating a lot of my smaller parts. The process is simple but you need to bring the part to 400deg for about fifteen or twenty minutes. This would just about make doing the whole airframe impossible. Any part that you had paint would no doubt have to be stripped due to the heat. What I have done looks good and like I said it is easy. 1 powder coat kit from Summit Racing $140 1 used electric oven $ 50 install 220v/50amp service to oven $250 Good luck Jim Carey RV8A working on it -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Matt, The big issue with powder coating or paint is the quality of the prep work. If the shop doesn't do great prep work, you will have a real mess on your hands. Charlie Kuss --- On Mon, 10/20/08, Matt Dralle wrote: > From: Matt Dralle > Subject: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? > To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 8:11 PM > > > > Fellow RV-er's, > > There is a powercoating shop here in my town that has an > oven large enough to put my whole RV-8 fuselage into it. > I've been considering just having the whole inside > powercoated for the durability, and sweet look. Lots of > guys powercoat the instrument panel and obviously most of > the steel parts come from Van's powercoated. But what > are the upsides and downsides of powercoating all of the > interior parts. I've used Variprime on most of the > backsides of the interior parts, but I've left the > occupant facing parts bare in prep for the powercoating. > Will the powercoat chip off easily on the bend-y pieces? > > And when's the right time to take it down to the > powercoaters? I would like to have most things riveted that > need riveting before the coating like the forward deck over > the instrument panel and the aft turtledeck, but these get > riveted on pretty late in the building process. I would > like to have all of the wiring and controls installed or at > least fabbed and trial fitted before coating to avoid > scratches. But again, once things are wired, is coating > going to make a mess? Its not like the harnesses can really > be removed once their installed... > > The other concern is the heat necessary to bake on the > powercoating. I think its upwards of 450 degrees F. What > impact will that temperature have on the various parts that > go into the fuselage such as the aeronuts, plastic bushings, > clamps, etc? > > I'm in quite a dilemma over this. I really want to > wait as long as possible to avoid scratches and chips in the > powercoating, but I don't want to wait too long and not > be able to disassemble things to the point of making a good > looking job. For example, the rear floor boards should > probably be riveted down, but any screwed in panels should > be removed. But riveting the floorboards is something > I'd probably prefer to do the day before test flying... > > Thanks for any insight... > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 # 82880 > Trutrak Auto Pilot Servo and Aileron Electric Trim Install > > __________________________________________________ __________ NOD32 3542 (20081021) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? From: "John Cox" Chuck closed with the most important point. Powdercoat makes the inspection of welds and crack propagation a real BEAR. Consider that when Pro/Con (weighing) the durability to environmentals and increased gross weight. Sure looks pretty though. John Cox IA -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Daus Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:00 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Matt, I own/operate a powdercoating facility. There are many low E or low cure powders on the market (300 deg. F. temp for 12 minute cure) that would help with the heat treat issues. My biggest concern is weight. I would guess 15-25 lbs. With the lower cure temp I don't think distortion or artificially aging (heat treat) would be a big concern (the aluminum will age by itself over time any way). Some other concerns are the thickness; if you have any parts that fit together I am sure they will not. You could have the coater mask off these areas or have them give you some high temp. tape and you do it your self. Make sure the coater properly pretreats (degrease and etch and dry) your fuselage before applying the powder. Lastly, if for some reason your aircraft ever gets real hot the powder will burn and the fumes that powder gives off are very unpleasant. Oh, one more thing, powder hides cracks very well. Just a few things to consider, Chuck RV6A FWF Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:12 PM Subject: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Fellow RV-er's, There is a powercoating shop here in my town that has an oven large enough to put my whole RV-8 fuselage into it. I've been considering just having the whole inside powercoated for the durability, and sweet look. Lots of guys powercoat the instrument panel and obviously most of the steel parts come from Van's powercoated. But what are the upsides and downsides of powercoating all of the interior parts. I've used Variprime on most of the backsides of the interior parts, but I've left the occupant facing parts bare in prep for the powercoating. Will the powercoat chip off easily on the bend-y pieces? And when's the right time to take it down to the powercoaters? I would like to have most things riveted that need riveting before the coating like the forward deck over the instrument panel and the aft turtledeck, but these get riveted on pretty late in the building process. I would like to have all of the wiring and controls installed or at least fabbed and trial fitted before coating to avoid scratches. But again, once things are wired, is coating going to make a mess? Its not like the harnesses can really be removed once their installed... The other concern is the heat necessary to bake on the powercoating. I think its upwards of 450 degrees F. What impact will that temperature have on the various parts that go into the fuselage such as the aeronuts, plastic bushings, clamps, etc? I'm in quite a dilemma over this. I really want to wait as long as possible to avoid scratches and chips in the powercoating, but I don't want to wait too long and not be able to disassemble things to the point of making a good looking job. For example, the rear floor boards should probably be riveted down, but any screwed in panels should be removed. But riveting the floorboards is something I'd probably prefer to do the day before test flying... Thanks for any insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 # 82880 Trutrak Auto Pilot Servo and Aileron Electric Trim Install ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:07 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Thanks for all the great feedback on powercoating the interior! I think I'm going to skip powercoating the interior based on everyone's feedback. I had a conversation with my local body shop guy who I've know for nearly 20 years. He was very willing to take on the project and basically said that we could work out an arrangement where I could do most of the supervised prep work in his shop and then he would simply supply the paint and the skill in applying it. Sounds like a good deal to me. He has a really nice, large sealed paint booth that the -8 will fit right into. He has completely repainted two cars for me in the past and his skill is superb. He was saying that he recently painted a guys Rotoway helecopter. Still, the "when" is a question mark. I want to delay as long as possible, but I don't want to wait too long and have to completely disassemble everything or worse yet *wish* that I could disassemble things for paint. Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 At 05:11 PM 10/20/2008 Monday, you wrote: > > >Fellow RV-er's, > >There is a powercoating shop here in my town that has an oven large enough to put my whole RV-8 fuselage into it. I've been considering just having the whole inside powercoated for the durability, and sweet look. Lots of guys powercoat the instrument panel and obviously most of the steel parts come from Van's powercoated. But what are the upsides and downsides of powercoating all of the interior parts. I've used Variprime on most of the backsides of the interior parts, but I've left the occupant facing parts bare in prep for the powercoating. Will the powercoat chip off easily on the bend-y pieces? > >And when's the right time to take it down to the powercoaters? I would like to have most things riveted that need riveting before the coating like the forward deck over the instrument panel and the aft turtledeck, but these get riveted on pretty late in the building process. I would like to have all of the wiring and controls installed or at least fabbed and trial fitted before coating to avoid scratches. But again, once things are wired, is coating going to make a mess? Its not like the harnesses can really be removed once their installed... > >The other concern is the heat necessary to bake on the powercoating. I think its upwards of 450 degrees F. What impact will that temperature have on the various parts that go into the fuselage such as the aeronuts, plastic bushings, clamps, etc? > >I'm in quite a dilemma over this. I really want to wait as long as possible to avoid scratches and chips in the powercoating, but I don't want to wait too long and not be able to disassemble things to the point of making a good looking job. For example, the rear floor boards should probably be riveted down, but any screwed in panels should be removed. But riveting the floorboards is something I'd probably prefer to do the day before test flying... > >Thanks for any insight... > >Matt Dralle >RV-8 # 82880 >Trutrak Auto Pilot Servo and Aileron Electric Trim Install Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:14 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: RE: Fiberglass epoxy of choice Hi Nelson, Here is a list of stuff to get from ACS to get your fiberglassing project off on the right foot. My empennage tips came out really nice using these ( http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=dralle&project=617&category=2975&log=63902&row=7 ). Composite Tool Kit (Fiberglassing Starter Tool Kit) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/comptoolkit.php West Systems Epoxy (Get the #105 Resin and #206 Hardner) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/westepoxy.php West Systems Pump (These work great - Must Have) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/301PUMP.php West Systems User Manual (Free! Get it!) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/neworderform.php?cmd=add&p=01-08750&q=1 9oz Cloth http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/7500.php Gel Coat http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/polyestergelCoats.php Flocked Cotton (Course Filler) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/flockedcotton.php Microballoons / Glass Bubbles (Fine Filler) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/bubbles.php Matt Dralle RV-8 # 82880 At 02:13 PM 10/21/2008 Tuesday, you wrote: >--> RV7-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" > > >Hi Matt, > >Do you have lead on that West Systems starter kit? I can't seem to find it on ACS's www site. > >Thanks, > /\/elson > > >~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ > >On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Matt Dralle wrote: > >>--> RV7-List message posted by: Matt Dralle >> >>I would echo Scotts comments. I used the West Systems epoxy and was extremely pleased with the results. Get some microballoons, some flocked cotton, and some 9oz cloth too, to use as filler to mix in with the epoxy where needed. >> >>BTW, ACS has a really nice "starter kit" for fiberglassing that includes all of the "tools" that make the job a whole lot easier. I bought it and am really happy I did. I wouldn't have bought some of the things thinking I "wouldn't need that", but in reality, they came in handy. >> >>You haven't done the tail tips yet, I guess...? >> >>Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:43 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Interior Painting - Powercoating? When? Matt Dralle wrote: snip > Still, the "when" is a question mark. I want to delay as long as possible, but I don't want to wait too long and have to completely disassemble everything or worse yet *wish* that I could disassemble things for paint. > I think everyone wrestles with this one! When I painted my Pitts, I did it before it was assembled ..... much easier to handle the 'smaller' pieces in the paint booth. I'll probably paint the -10 the same way. My shop is at home and the airport about a mile away, and I've pondered getting the Sheriff to lead me as I taxi down the road .... or after a part is painted, move that part to the airport for assembly. I have friends that still have their plane painted in primer years after they started flying ..... you hate to take a flying pland apart for paint, and painting it assembled means some places won't get paint .... and primer without paint MAY allow corrosion. So, at this point I'll have everything in base coat color when it's assembled to fly .... and it may have the trim at that point also. Linn > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:11 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Starter Contactor From: "partner14" I have the B&C S701-2 Crossfeed Contactor (starter) and just need to know what wires go to each contact. Really the ones in question are the two small contacts. Neither has the "S" or "I" labels that I've read everyone referencing. Noone at B & C could tell me, so hopefully someone has this wired up already. I've attached the photo that is on the B & C website with the can lid on the top, and one diode going from the left small contact, over and above to the right large lug. This particular contactor has the 2 large lugs on each side and 2 smaller lugs in the middle. I also tried Bob Nuckolls, but email address was no longer valid. Thanks, Don McDonald #40636 -------- Don A. McDonald 40636 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9788#209788 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/s701_2_123.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.