Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:47 AM - What's My Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:12 AM - Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (Charles Heathco)
2. 05:13 AM - Re: Trio Auto Pilot FS (bert murillo)
3. 06:55 AM - For Sale: Headset (John L. Danielson)
4. 07:27 AM - Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (bcollinsmn)
5. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (John Cox)
6. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (Scott)
7. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (John Cox)
8. 12:50 PM - Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (bcollinsmn)
9. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (SteinAir, Inc.)
10. 01:20 PM - Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (bcollinsmn)
11. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (Kelly McMullen)
12. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (Terry Watson)
13. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (Ron Lee)
14. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (David Burton)
15. 03:31 PM - Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (bcollinsmn)
16. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (Terry Watson)
17. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (SteinAir, Inc.)
18. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (John Cox)
19. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A (richard sipp)
Message 0
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| Subject: | What's My Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question.
Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables. It provides
for the very expensive, commercial-grade T1 Internet connection used on
the List insuring maximum performance and minimal contention when accessing
List services. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades
enabling the highest performance possible for services such as the Archive Search
Engine, List Browser, and Forums. It pays for 19+ years worth of online archive
data available for instant random search and access. And, it offsets the
many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications
that power this List Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums,
Wiki and PhotoShare.
But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your
peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation,
censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses. How many
places on the Internet can you make all those statements these days?
It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these many aspects of these valuable
List services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its
one of the best investments you can make in your Sport...
List Contribution Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Bob, read your question with interest. Sounds like this 406 takes a
different setup than the current ones being used? You cant install it
same as the ones we are using? Chalrie H
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Trio Auto Pilot FS |
Paul:
Would like to know what is the name of the unit etc. never heard of
golden trio." I am looking for the Altitude Holder....
thanks for any info
robert
--- On Fri, 11/14/08, PaulR <prose@panhandle.rr.com> wrote:
> From: PaulR <prose@panhandle.rr.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Trio Auto Pilot FS
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 3:50 PM
> <prose@panhandle.rr.com>
>
> Trio "Gold" servo with wiring harness, never
> installed.
> SafeAir1 installation kit for "roll" installation
> Includes all hardware, instructions and push/pull tube.
> Wing doubler has been installed but will be removed and
> included.
>
> Price for all new is approximately $880 plus freight.
>
> I'll take $750 shipped in CONUS either UPS or Priority
> Mail.
>
> email prose(at)panhandle(dot)rr(dot)com
>
> --------
> Paul Rose
> N417PR (res)
> RV-9A
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214245#214245
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | For Sale: Headset |
I have a Sennheiser HMCE 300 ANR headset for sale.
It is approx. 4 yrs old and is in excellent condition.
Very comfortable and lightweight. It comes with Oregon Aero ear cups and
the original ear cups.
Very nice headset. You wouldn't be disappointed. Reson for selling. I'm
getting out of aviation.
Asking $350 plus shipping.
Please e-mail me off the list at Jdaniel343@bresnan.net with any
questions.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Yeah, I think you can. According to the instructions, the mounting bracket will
exchange properly with the existing setups. I'm just curious how people are installing.
When you read the instructions, it sounds like they want it as far
in the tail as possible with the antenna having this 24" ground plane. But when
I've seen various installations, it's tucked under the baggage compartment quite
often with the whip antenna bent around the aft side of the rollbar.
According to the instrx, whatever is used, the ELT and the antenna should be in
the same "bay". Van's sells that combo ELT/Strobe power supply bracket (which
I used for the strobe) that fits on the stringers, but that will only fit directly
behind the 706 bulkhead.
It's not big deal, I'm just interested in seeing various permutations before I
dive in.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214539#214539
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Bob, I am hoping that this thread actually expands and becomes a Big
Deal, or at least bigger.
I have felt for some time that the location, mount orientation, ground
plane and attempt at concealing the antenna actually leads to an
ineffective or nearly worthless electronic device. That premise was
based on the 121.5 variant not the 406 however, because one build might
have mounted it incorrectly, scores follow suit and then the masses
drink the Kool-Aid. I have always concluded the function might not be
important, only its presence for the DAR signoff.
I have remained curious how many rescues rather than recoveries "after
the fact" are attributed to a properly functioning signal and a
responsible response by the parties that monitor the frequency (either
121.5 or 406.
As a ham (amateur) radio license holder this pursuit of concealing the
antenna has always been fascinating. Do any of the readers have signal
propagation graphs on signal strength radiating from inside the tin can?
John Cox
Aurora, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcollinsmn
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 7:26 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
Yeah, I think you can. According to the instructions, the mounting
bracket will exchange properly with the existing setups. I'm just
curious how people are installing. When you read the instructions, it
sounds like they want it as far in the tail as possible with the antenna
having this 24" ground plane. But when I've seen various installations,
it's tucked under the baggage compartment quite often with the whip
antenna bent around the aft side of the rollbar.
According to the instrx, whatever is used, the ELT and the antenna
should be in the same "bay". Van's sells that combo ELT/Strobe power
supply bracket (which I used for the strobe) that fits on the stringers,
but that will only fit directly behind the 706 bulkhead.
It's not big deal, I'm just interested in seeing various permutations
before I dive in.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job:
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214539#214539
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Well, I don't have data to back me up, but as a fellow ham who dabbles
in the world above 50 MHz (actually, I have stuff for our microwave
bands) and can say that a fuselage would make a "decent" waveguide at
VHF and UHF. Waveguide is made to contain RF. I think putting antennas
INSIDE of a metal container is just asking for it not to radiate to the
outside world when you need it most :) I've often wondered why some
folks get so bent over an external antenna that may cost them a knot or
two. For God's sake, you're going 160 knots in an RV, what's 158
knots? How fast does one need to go? Take it from me, my present ride
cruises at 65 knots or so...I'd be more than happy with 158 ;)
Scott
John Cox wrote:
>
>Bob, I am hoping that this thread actually expands and becomes a Big
>Deal, or at least bigger.
>
>I have felt for some time that the location, mount orientation, ground
>plane and attempt at concealing the antenna actually leads to an
>ineffective or nearly worthless electronic device. That premise was
>based on the 121.5 variant not the 406 however, because one build might
>have mounted it incorrectly, scores follow suit and then the masses
>drink the Kool-Aid. I have always concluded the function might not be
>important, only its presence for the DAR signoff.
>
>I have remained curious how many rescues rather than recoveries "after
>the fact" are attributed to a properly functioning signal and a
>responsible response by the parties that monitor the frequency (either
>121.5 or 406.
>
>As a ham (amateur) radio license holder this pursuit of concealing the
>antenna has always been fascinating. Do any of the readers have signal
>propagation graphs on signal strength radiating from inside the tin can?
>
>John Cox
>Aurora, OR
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcollinsmn
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 7:26 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>
>
>Yeah, I think you can. According to the instructions, the mounting
>bracket will exchange properly with the existing setups. I'm just
>curious how people are installing. When you read the instructions, it
>sounds like they want it as far in the tail as possible with the antenna
>having this 24" ground plane. But when I've seen various installations,
>it's tucked under the baggage compartment quite often with the whip
>antenna bent around the aft side of the rollbar.
>
>According to the instrx, whatever is used, the ELT and the antenna
>should be in the same "bay". Van's sells that combo ELT/Strobe power
>supply bracket (which I used for the strobe) that fits on the stringers,
>but that will only fit directly behind the 706 bulkhead.
>
>It's not big deal, I'm just interested in seeing various permutations
>before I dive in.
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
>http://rvbuildershotline.com
>Day job:
>http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214539#214539
>
>
>
>
--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
My premise remains that after the first ineffective install, others
followed by copying, Kool-Aid was passed, really large numbers of
installs supported lack of viable research. The device is aboard, which
meets the letter of the law - Chapter Closed. Practical value - Zilch.
With 406 the discussion deserves to be opened to location within the
aircraft, purpose of the device, mounting technique, ground plane
effectiveness and strong signal propagation (on freq) from a good
distance from the aircraft fuselage regardless of location, orientation
or condition of the airframe.
Bob can give this topic the light that needs to be shed on the issue.
W7COX
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
Well, I don't have data to back me up, but as a fellow ham who dabbles
in the world above 50 MHz (actually, I have stuff for our microwave
bands) and can say that a fuselage would make a "decent" waveguide at
VHF and UHF. Waveguide is made to contain RF. I think putting antennas
INSIDE of a metal container is just asking for it not to radiate to the
outside world when you need it most :) I've often wondered why some
folks get so bent over an external antenna that may cost them a knot or
two. For God's sake, you're going 160 knots in an RV, what's 158
knots? How fast does one need to go? Take it from me, my present ride
cruises at 65 knots or so...I'd be more than happy with 158 ;)
Scott
John Cox wrote:
>
>Bob, I am hoping that this thread actually expands and becomes a Big
>Deal, or at least bigger.
>
>I have felt for some time that the location, mount orientation, ground
>plane and attempt at concealing the antenna actually leads to an
>ineffective or nearly worthless electronic device. That premise was
>based on the 121.5 variant not the 406 however, because one build might
>have mounted it incorrectly, scores follow suit and then the masses
>drink the Kool-Aid. I have always concluded the function might not be
>important, only its presence for the DAR signoff.
>
>I have remained curious how many rescues rather than recoveries "after
>the fact" are attributed to a properly functioning signal and a
>responsible response by the parties that monitor the frequency (either
>121.5 or 406.
>
>As a ham (amateur) radio license holder this pursuit of concealing the
>antenna has always been fascinating. Do any of the readers have signal
>propagation graphs on signal strength radiating from inside the tin
can?
>
>John Cox
>Aurora, OR
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcollinsmn
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 7:26 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>
>
>Yeah, I think you can. According to the instructions, the mounting
>bracket will exchange properly with the existing setups. I'm just
>curious how people are installing. When you read the instructions, it
>sounds like they want it as far in the tail as possible with the
antenna
>having this 24" ground plane. But when I've seen various installations,
>it's tucked under the baggage compartment quite often with the whip
>antenna bent around the aft side of the rollbar.
>
>According to the instrx, whatever is used, the ELT and the antenna
>should be in the same "bay". Van's sells that combo ELT/Strobe power
>supply bracket (which I used for the strobe) that fits on the
stringers,
>but that will only fit directly behind the 706 bulkhead.
>
>It's not big deal, I'm just interested in seeing various permutations
>before I dive in.
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
>http://rvbuildershotline.com
>Day job:
>http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214539#214539
>
>
>
>
--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
AV8ORJWC wrote:
> Bob, I am hoping that this thread actually expands and becomes a Big
> Deal, or at least bigger.
>
> I have felt for some time that the location, mount orientation, ground
> plane and attempt at concealing the antenna actually leads to an
> ineffective or nearly worthless electronic device. That premise was
> based on the 121.5 variant not the 406 however, because one build might
> have mounted it incorrectly, scores follow suit and then the masses
> drink the Kool-Aid.
I spent about $900 on this thing. I was awoken by the crash of Steve Fossett, so
I want to make sure I get it right.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214571#214571
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
This is a question I have that is really a question...and I'm not trying to
be fececious....I truly want to know:
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
rescuers didn't get there? What I mean is, does any of you know anyone who
crashed, and then waited for CAP or whomever to find them? Typically I
usually see two results from a crash. 1) Death. 2) Non Death - people live
through the crash and crawl/walk/run away. Perhaps there are examples, I've
just been trying for years to find any credible for first hand accounts of
where an ELT did or even could have saved a life.... I'm not interested in
hearing hangar stories or "I heard of", but truly credible instances. They
certainly must be there or we wouldn't have this whole ELT discussion to
begin with. I'm just trying to find such examples.
If you know, please share!
Thanks,
Stein
do not archive
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Cox
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:37 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>
>
>
>My premise remains that after the first ineffective install, others
>followed by copying, Kool-Aid was passed, really large numbers of
>installs supported lack of viable research. The device is aboard, which
>meets the letter of the law - Chapter Closed. Practical value - Zilch.
>With 406 the discussion deserves to be opened to location within the
>aircraft, purpose of the device, mounting technique, ground plane
>effectiveness and strong signal propagation (on freq) from a good
>distance from the aircraft fuselage regardless of location, orientation
>or condition of the airframe.
>
>Bob can give this topic the light that needs to be shed on the issue.
>
>W7COX
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:11 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>
>
>Well, I don't have data to back me up, but as a fellow ham who dabbles
>in the world above 50 MHz (actually, I have stuff for our microwave
>bands) and can say that a fuselage would make a "decent" waveguide at
>VHF and UHF. Waveguide is made to contain RF. I think putting antennas
>
>INSIDE of a metal container is just asking for it not to radiate to the
>outside world when you need it most :) I've often wondered why some
>folks get so bent over an external antenna that may cost them a knot or
>two. For God's sake, you're going 160 knots in an RV, what's 158
>knots? How fast does one need to go? Take it from me, my present ride
>cruises at 65 knots or so...I'd be more than happy with 158 ;)
>
>Scott
>
>
>John Cox wrote:
>
>>
>>Bob, I am hoping that this thread actually expands and becomes a Big
>>Deal, or at least bigger.
>>
>>I have felt for some time that the location, mount orientation, ground
>>plane and attempt at concealing the antenna actually leads to an
>>ineffective or nearly worthless electronic device. That premise was
>>based on the 121.5 variant not the 406 however, because one build might
>>have mounted it incorrectly, scores follow suit and then the masses
>>drink the Kool-Aid. I have always concluded the function might not be
>>important, only its presence for the DAR signoff.
>>
>>I have remained curious how many rescues rather than recoveries "after
>>the fact" are attributed to a properly functioning signal and a
>>responsible response by the parties that monitor the frequency (either
>>121.5 or 406.
>>
>>As a ham (amateur) radio license holder this pursuit of concealing the
>>antenna has always been fascinating. Do any of the readers have signal
>>propagation graphs on signal strength radiating from inside the tin
>can?
>>
>>John Cox
>>Aurora, OR
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcollinsmn
>>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 7:26 AM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>>
>>
>>Yeah, I think you can. According to the instructions, the mounting
>>bracket will exchange properly with the existing setups. I'm just
>>curious how people are installing. When you read the instructions, it
>>sounds like they want it as far in the tail as possible with the
>antenna
>>having this 24" ground plane. But when I've seen various installations,
>>it's tucked under the baggage compartment quite often with the whip
>>antenna bent around the aft side of the rollbar.
>>
>>According to the instrx, whatever is used, the ELT and the antenna
>>should be in the same "bay". Van's sells that combo ELT/Strobe power
>>supply bracket (which I used for the strobe) that fits on the
>stringers,
>>but that will only fit directly behind the 706 bulkhead.
>>
>>It's not big deal, I'm just interested in seeing various permutations
>>before I dive in.
>>
>>--------
>>Bob Collins
>>St. Paul, Minn.
>>RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
>>http://rvbuildershotline.com
>>Day job:
>>http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214539#214539
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Scott
>http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
>Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
>Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
[quote="stein(at)steinair.com"]This is a question I have that is really a question...and
I'm not trying to
be fececious....I truly want to know:
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
rescuers didn't get there?
> --
First let me say, I don't GET putting DO NOT ARCHIVE on that message, Stein. It's
a good question that, it seems to me, will be valuable for people who want
to follow this in the future.
But the answer to your question is, yes, I'm familiar with one case that happened
in my old neck of the woods, Monterey, Massachusetts. A family flew into Great
Barrington where there wer eno services, it was night, winter, so they took
off again headed toward Westfield and iced up and went down.
Three boys survived. The father survived but died later in the hospital. Three
boys survived. The wife and another boy were killed. It took 18 hours to find
them.
Here's a link:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-10828.html
Here's one from Canada:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2007/01/08/plane-survivor.html
I'm sure it's not the only case.
I understand your point -- I guess . Still, if it's a required piece of equipment,
why not install it correctly?
For that reason, let's not go into a big debate -- at least in this thread -- on
whether ELTS are needed or need to be installed correctly. It's up to each builder.
and my choice is it WILL be installed correctly.
Doing some more reading here, it looks to me like I can put a whip antenna topside,
30 inches (at least) forward of the vertical stabilizer. I don't have a problem
with antennae in the wind. II presume the skin itself is the ground plane.
I do have some concern about whehter there'd be any interference with the
GPS antenna but I guess I'll worry about that later.
As far as the mounting is concerned, I'm starting to wonder if under the turtle
deck might make some sense? Other than that, I'm kinda digging Mike Hoover's
installation which he documents here:
http://www.aclog.com/rv-9a/index.php?c=3#909
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214578#214578
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
There was a Cherokee 6 that crashed in western Mass in a snowstorm in
evening with family on-board, returning from FL. Pilot had been
participant in a Piper list. Wife and I think one of the kids died soon
after crash. Father survived the night and into morning until he and
three surviving kids were found. He died shortly after being rescued.
Kids survived.
http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2007/A07_51.pdf
<http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2007/A07_51.pdf>
NSTB is recommending 406 Mhz ELT's and is using Ron Ferris's accident in
support of their recommendation
SteinAir, Inc. wrote:
>
> This is a question I have that is really a question...and I'm not trying to
> be fececious....I truly want to know:
>
> Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died whilst
> awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
> rescuers didn't get there? What I mean is, does any of you know anyone who
> crashed, and then waited for CAP or whomever to find them? Typically I
> usually see two results from a crash. 1) Death. 2) Non Death - people live
> through the crash and crawl/walk/run away. Perhaps there are examples, I've
> just been trying for years to find any credible for first hand accounts of
> where an ELT did or even could have saved a life.... I'm not interested in
> hearing hangar stories or "I heard of", but truly credible instances. They
> certainly must be there or we wouldn't have this whole ELT discussion to
> begin with. I'm just trying to find such examples.
>
> If you know, please share!
>
> Thanks,
> Stein
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc.
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
This is a question I have that is really a question...and I'm not trying to
be fececious....I truly want to know:
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
rescuers didn't get there? What I mean is, does any of you know anyone who
crashed, and then waited for CAP or whomever to find them? Typically I
usually see two results from a crash. 1) Death. 2) Non Death - people live
through the crash and crawl/walk/run away. Perhaps there are examples, I've
just been trying for years to find any credible for first hand accounts of
where an ELT did or even could have saved a life.... I'm not interested in
hearing hangar stories or "I heard of", but truly credible instances. They
certainly must be there or we wouldn't have this whole ELT discussion to
begin with. I'm just trying to find such examples.
If you know, please share!
Thanks,
Stein
do not archive
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Cox
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:37 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>
>
>
>My premise remains that after the first ineffective install, others
>followed by copying, Kool-Aid was passed, really large numbers of
>installs supported lack of viable research. The device is aboard, which
>meets the letter of the law - Chapter Closed. Practical value - Zilch.
>With 406 the discussion deserves to be opened to location within the
>aircraft, purpose of the device, mounting technique, ground plane
>effectiveness and strong signal propagation (on freq) from a good
>distance from the aircraft fuselage regardless of location, orientation
>or condition of the airframe.
>
>Bob can give this topic the light that needs to be shed on the issue.
>
>W7COX
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:11 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>
>
>Well, I don't have data to back me up, but as a fellow ham who dabbles
>in the world above 50 MHz (actually, I have stuff for our microwave
>bands) and can say that a fuselage would make a "decent" waveguide at
>VHF and UHF. Waveguide is made to contain RF. I think putting antennas
>
>INSIDE of a metal container is just asking for it not to radiate to the
>outside world when you need it most :) I've often wondered why some
>folks get so bent over an external antenna that may cost them a knot or
>two. For God's sake, you're going 160 knots in an RV, what's 158
>knots? How fast does one need to go? Take it from me, my present ride
>cruises at 65 knots or so...I'd be more than happy with 158 ;)
>
>Scott
>
>
>John Cox wrote:
>
>>
>>Bob, I am hoping that this thread actually expands and becomes a Big
>>Deal, or at least bigger.
>>
>>I have felt for some time that the location, mount orientation, ground
>>plane and attempt at concealing the antenna actually leads to an
>>ineffective or nearly worthless electronic device. That premise was
>>based on the 121.5 variant not the 406 however, because one build might
>>have mounted it incorrectly, scores follow suit and then the masses
>>drink the Kool-Aid. I have always concluded the function might not be
>>important, only its presence for the DAR signoff.
>>
>>I have remained curious how many rescues rather than recoveries "after
>>the fact" are attributed to a properly functioning signal and a
>>responsible response by the parties that monitor the frequency (either
>>121.5 or 406.
>>
>>As a ham (amateur) radio license holder this pursuit of concealing the
>>antenna has always been fascinating. Do any of the readers have signal
>>propagation graphs on signal strength radiating from inside the tin
>can?
>>
>>John Cox
>>Aurora, OR
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcollinsmn
>>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 7:26 AM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>>
>>
>>Yeah, I think you can. According to the instructions, the mounting
>>bracket will exchange properly with the existing setups. I'm just
>>curious how people are installing. When you read the instructions, it
>>sounds like they want it as far in the tail as possible with the
>antenna
>>having this 24" ground plane. But when I've seen various installations,
>>it's tucked under the baggage compartment quite often with the whip
>>antenna bent around the aft side of the rollbar.
>>
>>According to the instrx, whatever is used, the ELT and the antenna
>>should be in the same "bay". Van's sells that combo ELT/Strobe power
>>supply bracket (which I used for the strobe) that fits on the
>stringers,
>>but that will only fit directly behind the 706 bulkhead.
>>
>>It's not big deal, I'm just interested in seeing various permutations
>>before I dive in.
>>
>>--------
>>Bob Collins
>>St. Paul, Minn.
>>RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
>>http://rvbuildershotline.com
>>Day job:
>>http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214539#214539
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Scott
>http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
>Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
>Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
> Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died
> whilst
> awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
> rescuers didn't get there? >
> Thanks,
> Stein
Interesting question. Personally I have ZERO faith in my ELT "saving" me.
With
121.5 MHz units, a lot of crashes do not activate the ELT. Is there any
proof that
406 MHz units are any better? Not that they are more accurate. Are they
more
reliable in activating when they should?
I have a 406 MHz PLB (GPS model) and intend to install an APRS system
(requires
a ham license) in the future. Along with avoiding pilot error situations
that down the
aircraft, I am not worried nor do I intend to get a 406 MHz ELT.
A Spot system offers far better rescue/recovery functionality (similar to
APRS) than
any ELT in my opinion.
Ron Lee
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
rescuers didn't get there?
Partner in one of our planes went down trying to cross a local 4000'
mountain pass. He survived the landing in the woods, organized the contents
of the cockpit and certainly could have activated the ELT if it hadn't
deployed. He died trying to walk out through the snow.
DaveB
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
I don't really see any reason for either-ors here. You outfit your plane for whatever
you want. If safety is a concern -- and it is for me -- that means traffic
avoidance systems, 406 ELTS (yes, they are more accurate than 121.5s), it
means an emergency checklist that includes manually activating the ELT before
ditching, having the mechanism to use the ELT as a radio, it means SPOT, it means
APRS, it means Hooker Harnesses with a crotch strap, it means Oregon Aero
seats, it means having a survival kit, it means having a mechanism to break the
canop and on and on and on.
Now, then, back to the original question...
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214601#214601
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Sorry about the previous blank message. I have a friend who is the former
head of the Washington State CAP. I just got an email back from him telling
me that he will tell me the whole story of a CAP member who was lost a few
years ago after crashing in the Cascades in bad weather. He was not
seriously injured but died before the rescuers got to him due to exposure
and apparently also because he had left his survival kit in his car.
OK, I found the report:
Terry
NTSB Identification: ANC95GA048 .
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact
Records Management Division
Accident occurred Wednesday, April 12, 1995 in BUMPING LAKE, WA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 9/3/1996
Aircraft: Cessna 182Q, registration: N97843
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
The private pilot, a civil air patrol (CAP) volunteer, was on a CAP flight
for proficiency training and to conduct business. The VFR cross-country
flight was planned over mountainous terrain. The pilot obtained a weather
briefing that included information about icing conditions along the planned
route. During the flight, no communication was received from the pilot other
than activation of his flight plan after departing the airport. The airplane
was reported overdue, but a search was hampered due to IFR conditions and
snow. No transponder code was issued to the airplane, and no discrete radar
data was located in stored radar data to assist in locating the airplane. By
0900 on 4/15/95, analysis of the primary target radar returns helped in
locating the accident airplane. Also, only an intermittent signal was
transmitted from the airplane's emergency locator transmitter (ELT). The
wreckage was located 3 days later, where the airplane had crash landed on
snow covered mountainous terrain. Investigation revealed the pilot initially
survived the accident, but succumbed to hypothermia. He was wearing a flight
suit over dress clothes, a flight jacket, and dress shoes. No survival
equipment was required to be carried in the airplane. The pilot had a
personal survival kit, but had left it in his vehicle at the departure
airport. A note found in the wreckage indicated that the engine lost power.
After recovery, the engine operated normally. The transponder switch was
found in the "standby" position; inspection of the ELT revealed a faulty
tuning crystal. The pilot had received training in survival skills and was a
CAP survival skills instructor.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows:
A loss of engine power for an undetermined reason. Factors relating to the
accident were: lack of suitable terrain for a forced landing in mountains,
low ambient temperatures that contributed to hypothermia, the lack of
survival equipment, an erratic ELT signal due to a faulty tuning crystal,
and the lack of discrete transponder data to assist in the search.
Full narrative available
Index for Apr1995 | Index of months
This is a question I have that is really a question...and I'm not trying to
be fececious....I truly want to know:
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
rescuers didn't get there? What I mean is, does any of you know anyone who
crashed, and then waited for CAP or whomever to find them? Typically I
usually see two results from a crash. 1) Death. 2) Non Death - people live
through the crash and crawl/walk/run away. Perhaps there are examples, I've
just been trying for years to find any credible for first hand accounts of
where an ELT did or even could have saved a life.... I'm not interested in
hearing hangar stories or "I heard of", but truly credible instances. They
certainly must be there or we wouldn't have this whole ELT discussion to
begin with. I'm just trying to find such examples.
If you know, please share!
Thanks,
Stein
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
The do not archive was because this was to settle my personal curiosity more
than anything else. I didn't have anything to add to the technical part of
the discussion, so I guess I just didn't want my weird question filling up
the already bloated archives. I really wasn't trying to make any sort of
point at all (in either direction), I was simply trying to find out some
data that I hadn't seen/heard/read....I get asked questions like that a lot
of times here in my work, so any additional info at least helps me try to
answer peoples questions. That's it, plane and simple - no alterior motive
to start the "should you shouldn't you" debate all over again! :)
Cheers,
Stein
do not archive (just to make Bob shake his fist at me) !!!
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of bcollinsmn
>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 3:19 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
>First let me say, I don't GET putting DO NOT ARCHIVE on that
>message, Stein. It's a good question that, it seems to me, will be
>valuable for people who want to follow this in the future.
>
>But the answer to your question is, yes, I'm familiar with one
>case that happened in my old neck of the woods, Monterey,
>Massachusetts. A family flew into Great Barrington where there wer
>eno services, it was night, winter, so they took off again headed
>toward Westfield and iced up and went down.
>
>Three boys survived. The father survived but died later in the
>hospital. Three boys survived. The wife and another boy were
>killed. It took 18 hours to find them.
>
>Here's a link:
>
>http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-10828.html
>
>Here's one from Canada:
>
>http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2007/01/08/plane-survivor.html
>
>
>I'm sure it's not the only case.
>
>I understand your point -- I guess . Still, if it's a required
>piece of equipment, why not install it correctly?
>
>For that reason, let's not go into a big debate -- at least in
>this thread -- on whether ELTS are needed or need to be installed
>correctly. It's up to each builder. and my choice is it WILL be
>installed correctly.
>
>Doing some more reading here, it looks to me like I can put a whip
>antenna topside, 30 inches (at least) forward of the vertical
>stabilizer. I don't have a problem with antennae in the wind. II
>presume the skin itself is the ground plane. I do have some
>concern about whehter there'd be any interference with the GPS
>antenna but I guess I'll worry about that later.
>
>As far as the mounting is concerned, I'm starting to wonder if
>under the turtle deck might make some sense? Other than that, I'm
>kinda digging Mike Hoover's installation which he documents here:
>
>http://www.aclog.com/rv-9a/index.php?c=3#909
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!)
>http://rvbuildershotline.com
>Day job:
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
Stein, can you post here whether you have the equipment to measure and
graphically depict the effectiveness of the RF signal transmitted by a
properly mounted and functioning 406 device? Seeing the strength and
radiation pattern degradation as a result of a roll bar, a plexiglas
canopy, a composite shell or inside an aluminum empennage to save a knot
and a half might go a long way for the audience.
Or, if not, can you advise how owners can have the tranmitting pattern
graphed for their illumination?
My kool-aid pitcher here in the Pacific NW where rescue can turn to
recovery quite quickly is empty. I interpretted Bob's original post to
involve the ARTEX 406 installation instructions for current
installation. Instructions for effective 121.5 signal transmission were
lost some 30 years ago. Steve Fossett's loss just drives the point
home.
John Cox
W7COX
Aurora, OR
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of SteinAir, Inc.
Sent: Sun 11/16/2008 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
This is a question I have that is really a question...and I'm not trying
to
be fececious....I truly want to know:
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died
whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died because
rescuers didn't get there? What I mean is, does any of you know anyone
who
crashed, and then waited for CAP or whomever to find them? Typically I
usually see two results from a crash. 1) Death. 2) Non Death - people
live
through the crash and crawl/walk/run away. Perhaps there are examples,
I've
just been trying for years to find any credible for first hand accounts
of
where an ELT did or even could have saved a life.... I'm not interested
in
hearing hangar stories or "I heard of", but truly credible instances.
They
certainly must be there or we wouldn't have this whole ELT discussion to
begin with. I'm just trying to find such examples.
If you know, please share!
Thanks,
Stein
do not archive
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A |
RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7AI mounted the 406 antenna on the
right longeron at the aft end of the fiberglass top inside the baggage
compartment. It follows the bend of the top.
My to do list includes an item to try and determine if I can arrange an
actual test activation with the appropriate agencies to verify reception
of the signal.
I report if and when that is done.
Dick Sipp
N110DV 90 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: John Cox
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
Stein, can you post here whether you have the equipment to measure and
graphically depict the effectiveness of the RF signal transmitted by a
properly mounted and functioning 406 device? Seeing the strength and
radiation pattern degradation as a result of a roll bar, a plexiglas
canopy, a composite shell or inside an aluminum empennage to save a knot
and a half might go a long way for the audience.
Or, if not, can you advise how owners can have the tranmitting pattern
graphed for their illumination?
My kool-aid pitcher here in the Pacific NW where rescue can turn to
recovery quite quickly is empty. I interpretted Bob's original post to
involve the ARTEX 406 installation instructions for current
installation. Instructions for effective 121.5 signal transmission were
lost some 30 years ago. Steve Fossett's loss just drives the point
home.
John Cox
W7COX
Aurora, OR
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of SteinAir, Inc.
Sent: Sun 11/16/2008 12:59 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: ARTEX 406 ELT in a 7A
This is a question I have that is really a question...and I'm not
trying to
be fececious....I truly want to know:
Does anyone know of (or ever heard of) any pilot who crashed and died
whilst
awaiting a rescue - someone who lived through the crash but died
because
rescuers didn't get there? What I mean is, does any of you know
anyone who
crashed, and then waited for CAP or whomever to find them? Typically
I
usually see two results from a crash. 1) Death. 2) Non Death -
people live
through the crash and crawl/walk/run away. Perhaps there are
examples, I've
just been trying for years to find any credible for first hand
accounts of
where an ELT did or even could have saved a life.... I'm not
interested in
hearing hangar stories or "I heard of", but truly credible instances.
They
certainly must be there or we wouldn't have this whole ELT discussion
to
begin with. I'm just trying to find such examples.
If you know, please share!
Thanks,
Stein
do not archive
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