---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/18/08: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:20 AM - What Members Are Saying... (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:55 AM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (Tim Bryan) 2. 06:49 AM - Re: 406 MHz ELT and RV8 () 3. 09:06 AM - slider aft seal "lanyard" (Herron, Al) 4. 09:17 AM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (Greg Young) 5. 11:08 AM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (Tim Bryan) 6. 11:34 AM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (John Cox) 7. 12:19 PM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_B?=) 8. 02:28 PM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (Greg Young) 9. 03:01 PM - Re: 406 MHz ELT (Ron Lee) 10. 07:28 PM - FW: Cowl attachments (John Barrett) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:09 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: What Members Are Saying... Dear Listers, November is the Annual Matronics List Fund Raiser. The Lists are supported solely through your generous Contributions during this time. Please make your Contribution today and pick up a really nice free gift at this same time: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Listers have been including some really nice comments regarding what the Lists mean to them along with their Contributions this year. I've included a few of them below. Please read them over and see if some perhaps echo your feelings as well. Thank you for your support this year! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best bargain in the entire industry!! -Owen B Every year your lists are better, sure #1 in e-mail list in the world. -Gary G Thank you for an awesome site! -Ashley M Your lists are important to me and well worth paying for. -Calvin A Thank you for providing such and informative and ad free environment to learn by. -Myron H As always, a valuable and extremely useful resource. Stephen T As always, a great service. -Reade G Very much appreciate this site and the communications it has enabled between builders. -Larry M This service is worth every penny. -Robert S Great site! Thanks a ton for its functionality! -Peter B The RV-10 list feels like my community. -Dave S The lists are fantastic, a great source! -Jimmy Y I've learned a lot from the List. -Gabriel F A wonderful resource. -Gerald G Well done. -Richard N Years of good service. -William M Valuable service. -Keith H The site is quite helpful. -Jon M Very interesting List that I read form the beginning. -Alain L A well managed site. -Carl B Great service. -Svein Kare J Still the most useful program on the computer. -Fergus K Great contribution to my project! -Robert K Thanks for keeping a great list. -Dt G The List continues to provide excellent information. -Tony C This is a wonderful resource that has easily saved me a bunch on my build-time. -Ralph C Thank you for providing a great service. The Zenith builder's community would be in sad shape without the Zenith-List's. -Terrence P I really do get pleasure out of reading the List every day. -Bill V Great source of information. -Arthur V Thanks for a great service. Very enjoyable. -Louis B You know we all could not do without your support!! -James S Great resource! -Douglas D Thanks for the great service. -John B ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:00 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT I have my antenna mounted just in front of the vertical stabilizer. My thinking was in a rollover the stabilizer *might* protect the antenna from being smashed. Now I am wondering if the stabilizer causes any shielding of the signal. Dean, any thoughts on that? Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB over 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:43 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT > > > > When I was flying missions with Civil Air Patrol in the State of Oregon > we > had far more 121.5 ELT false alarms than real activations but...we > responded > to every one of them and learned some lessons along the way. Most of > the > missions I was associated with were production spam cans who had their > antennas mounted on top of the fuselage behind the cockpit. Yes it's > ugly > but they put them there for a reason. When the ELT IS activated in a > crash, > these installations have the BEST chance of being located by search and > rescue (SAR). > > Scott's waveguide premise is correct, the cockpit does make a great one > and > NO that is not helpful in getting one located and rescued in a timely > manner. If you land (crash) right side up that waveguide will direct > the ELT > signal upward where the satellites will receive it. But, once the 121.5 > ELT > is heard by the satellite and a SAR aircraft dispatched, the area to be > searched is still quite large. The SAR aircraft has to be able to > "hear" the > ELT in order to pinpoint you. If your installation is in the cockpit > then > this waveguide effect means that the SAR aircraft's direction finding > (DF) > equipment needs to be A LOT closer to you to pick up the signal. That > takes > more time in the grid and eats up precious time getting help to a > stricken > pilot who may be badly injured. > > This waveguide effect was brought home to me quite vividly on one CAP > practice mission where our incident commander placed the ELT inside a > metal > garbage can and then tipped the can on its side with the open end > facing a > mountain peak. We spent hours with the direction finder pointed at the > mountain listening to the reflected signal from the garbage can > waveguide > and searched all over that mountain but never located the "stricken" > aircraft. A frustrating exercise but very eye opening. > > John is correct, the practical value of "hiding" the ELT antenna along > the > roll bar or under the tail fairing is ZILCH!!! I just finished my RV- > 6A and > mounted the ELT antenna on the top of the fuselage behind the sliding > canopy. Yup it's ugly sticking up there but...if I do go down and the > unit > is activated, that location gives me the best chance of being found as > fast > as possible. Yes I know the activation rate is not that great > but...you > spent good money on and are installing a tool that could save your life > in > an emergency so why not give yourself the best chance of having it do > some > good. > > Since 406 MHz ELTs still use radio waves to perform their magic, > everything > I just mentioned applies. There will be a lot fewer false alarms on > the 406 > ELTs IF AND ONLY IF all you aviators out there fill out your > registration > cards and mail them in. Then, when the USAF search and rescue center > gets > your signal they can phone you right away and find out whether it's > just a > false alarm or a real emergency. The good news is, if it's a real > emergency > the satellites will pick up your 406 MHz signal quicker and locate you > within a smaller radius of area. The only down side is for the SAR > team, > the 406 ELTs send out a burst of data every so often as opposed to the > continuous transmission of the 121.5 units. This makes DF tracking a > little > more difficult but you should still be found much more quickly than > before. > > > Recommendation: read the instructions that come with your unit and > mount the > antenna where they say to do so. If no instruction, mount on top of the > wing > or fuselage in an open area with the least potential for reflections. > And > PLEASE PLEASE register your unit. I live in Florida now where boaters > have > had 406 MHz EPIRBs for a long time. Problem is, there are still lots of > false alarms because boaters have a dismal record of registering their > units!! Fill out that card and send it in. > > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > First flight scheduled for this Saturday. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:26 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT and RV8 I think you can put it on top off center-line just aft of the sliding canopy? >From: = >Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT and RV8 > >I changed the subject because I feel that there is a definite issue as >to ELT mounting on RV8s as Skylor mentioned. > >The canopy slides back all the way against the vertical stabilizer >fairing ' so that leaves no room on the back deck. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:45 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: slider aft seal "lanyard" From: "Herron, Al" Slider canopy builders: Van's plans call for attaching the C-679 "slide seal" (the little nylon doohickey that follows the canopy like a Chihuahua on a leash) with either nylon fishing line or 1/16" aircraft cable. The fishing line I didn't think would last very long, and I found that the aircraft cable was scratching a nasty groove in the slider rail. I came up with an idea I think works a little better: I used a 0.012" stainless "tape", or strap, instead. Easy to make, durable, and doesn't damage the rail. I've posted a diagram in yesterday's (11/17) RV List as a photoshare (PDF file): http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/herronpvf@sbcglobal.net.11.17.2008 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:42 AM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT Regardless of where you choose to mount the antenna and for whatever reason, consider the routing of the cable from the ELT to the antenna. If you route it through or near bulkheads or metal edges, it can be severed in a crash. My ELT was mounted on the keel by the elevator bellcrank in my -6, the antenna on the seatback cross member and the cable routed under the baggage floor and thru the rear spar bulkhead. Although my crash was upright, the cable was severed by the crushed and twisted structure. No signal was ever detected. I'm keeping the cable for the new one inside the tailcone with the antenna somewhere back there too. Regards, Greg Young > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Jerry Springer > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:55 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT > > > DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > > >--> > > > > > > > > >I just finished my RV-6A and > >mounted the ELT antenna on the top of the fuselage behind > the sliding > >canopy. Yup it's ugly sticking up there but...if I do go > down and the > >unit is activated, that location gives me the best chance of being > >found as fast as possible. > > > >Dean Psiropoulos > >RV-6A N197DM > >First flight scheduled for this Saturday. > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it well not do much good if you are inverted and > the antenna is bent over against the fuselage or is broken off. > I am one of those people that mounted mine inside under the > roll over frame on a tip up, it has just as much chance of > working there as anywhere else. > > Jerry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:31 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT Excellent point Greg! I mounted my ELT in the baggage compartment up against the baggage closure and the cable runs through the tail cone but not through any holes. It is tie wired to the formers and hopefully that wouldn't be an issue. I hadn't thought of that, just did it that way as it was easy. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB over 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Young > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:17 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT > > > Regardless of where you choose to mount the antenna and for whatever > reason, > consider the routing of the cable from the ELT to the antenna. If you > route > it through or near bulkheads or metal edges, it can be severed in a > crash. > My ELT was mounted on the keel by the elevator bellcrank in my -6, the > antenna on the seatback cross member and the cable routed under the > baggage > floor and thru the rear spar bulkhead. Although my crash was upright, > the > cable was severed by the crushed and twisted structure. No signal was > ever > detected. I'm keeping the cable for the new one inside the tailcone > with the > antenna somewhere back there too. > > Regards, > Greg Young ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT From: "John Cox" Bob Collins asked a question that has not yet been directly answered. The question I wanted expanded was to clarify for the masses that 121.5 ELTs have been installed without much consideration for intended function. Vanity and foolhearty following the builder before you leads to widely accepted misunderstandings. "Oh, I did it because twenty other guys in my EAA chapter have done the same thing and it seemed okay". Stein has not answered if he can measure the strength and directional pattern or who else might. Bob is still waiting for more clarity. Several have made excellent posts. My question remaining is what is the required polarity needed (Horizontal or Vertical), how will that antenna installed work in the event the required device is needed as in the case of Steve Fossett. Several posters added anecdotes on lives lost because ELTS don't work as needed (which may often be because of installation errors). We should all know those errors. We should know how effective our installed antennae are working. We should be protective of the distance and routing of the coax (Bob's question). Just because you can get an annunciation during a test function does not mean that the aircraft can be located before the battery goes dead from a few thousand yards away. Antenna propagation is still on the table. The idea of a belly mounted antenna because so many flip over or are stuck nose down is an interesting one. John Cox W7COX RV builder #40600 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT Excellent point Greg! I mounted my ELT in the baggage compartment up against the baggage closure and the cable runs through the tail cone but not through any holes. It is tie wired to the formers and hopefully that wouldn't be an issue. I hadn't thought of that, just did it that way as it was easy. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB over 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Young > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:17 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT > > > Regardless of where you choose to mount the antenna and for whatever > reason, > consider the routing of the cable from the ELT to the antenna. If you > route > it through or near bulkheads or metal edges, it can be severed in a > crash. > My ELT was mounted on the keel by the elevator bellcrank in my -6, the > antenna on the seatback cross member and the cable routed under the > baggage > floor and thru the rear spar bulkhead. Although my crash was upright, > the > cable was severed by the crushed and twisted structure. No signal was > ever > detected. I'm keeping the cable for the new one inside the tailcone > with the > antenna somewhere back there too. > > Regards, > Greg Young ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:01 PM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_B?= Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT I had asked the question - how about two antennas, one top side and one belly mounted, via a splitter. Is that an option ? Thanks, Michle -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de John Cox Envoy: mardi 18 novembre 2008 20:34 : rv-list@matronics.com Objet: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT Bob Collins asked a question that has not yet been directly answered. The question I wanted expanded was to clarify for the masses that 121.5 ELTs have been installed without much consideration for intended function. Vanity and foolhearty following the builder before you leads to widely accepted misunderstandings. "Oh, I did it because twenty other guys in my EAA chapter have done the same thing and it seemed okay". Stein has not answered if he can measure the strength and directional pattern or who else might. Bob is still waiting for more clarity. Several have made excellent posts. My question remaining is what is the required polarity needed (Horizontal or Vertical), how will that antenna installed work in the event the required device is needed as in the case of Steve Fossett. Several posters added anecdotes on lives lost because ELTS don't work as needed (which may often be because of installation errors). We should all know those errors. We should know how effective our installed antennae are working. We should be protective of the distance and routing of the coax (Bob's question). Just because you can get an annunciation during a test function does not mean that the aircraft can be located before the battery goes dead from a few thousand yards away. Antenna propagation is still on the table. The idea of a belly mounted antenna because so many flip over or are stuck nose down is an interesting one. John Cox W7COX RV builder #40600 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT Excellent point Greg! I mounted my ELT in the baggage compartment up against the baggage closure and the cable runs through the tail cone but not through any holes. It is tie wired to the formers and hopefully that wouldn't be an issue. I hadn't thought of that, just did it that way as it was easy. Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TB over 100 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Young > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:17 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT > > > Regardless of where you choose to mount the antenna and for whatever > reason, > consider the routing of the cable from the ELT to the antenna. If you > route > it through or near bulkheads or metal edges, it can be severed in a > crash. > My ELT was mounted on the keel by the elevator bellcrank in my -6, the > antenna on the seatback cross member and the cable routed under the > baggage > floor and thru the rear spar bulkhead. Although my crash was upright, > the > cable was severed by the crushed and twisted structure. No signal was > ever > detected. I'm keeping the cable for the new one inside the tailcone > with the > antenna somewhere back there too. > > Regards, > Greg Young ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:44 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT Another reality is access after the crash may not be easy or even possible if you're thinking you can actually use the portability feature of the ELT. Fasteners that were normally accessible may be blocked by bent metal or even bent themselves. I had to cut a hole to get mine out of the salvage. EPLB's probably make more sense if you want to assure use in the aftermath. Regards, Greg Young > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 1:00 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT > > > Excellent point Greg! I mounted my ELT in the baggage > compartment up against the baggage closure and the cable runs > through the tail cone but not through any holes. It is tie > wired to the formers and hopefully that wouldn't be an issue. > I hadn't thought of that, just did it that way as it was easy. > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Flying > N616TB over 100 hours now > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:03 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: 406 MHz ELT EPLB's > probably make more sense if you want to assure use in the aftermath. PLBs...unless the terms have changed. EPIRBs are boat units. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:23 PM PST US From: "John Barrett" <2thman@cablespeed.com> Subject: RV-List: FW: Cowl attachments I have posted some new pages on the Carbinge website showing Art Bertolina's beautiful Lancair IV cowling assembled with Carbinge and Carbinge keepers. See this URL: http://carbinge.com/cowl_attach.htm Additionally there is a page that explains how Art achieved this result: http://carbinge.com/Schematic%20of%20complete%20cowl%20attachment.htm Regards, John Barrett, CEO Leading Edge Composites PO Box 428 Port Hadlock, WA 98339 www.carbinge.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.