---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/03/08: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:52 AM - Pitot testing (Charles Brame) 2. 09:19 AM - Pitot testing (James H Nelson) 3. 11:22 AM - RV9A for Sale (david cook) 4. 02:08 PM - Re: Pitot testing (Kevin Horton) 5. 05:29 PM - Nedd info (bert murillo) 6. 05:46 PM - Re: Nedd info (Dale Walter) 7. 06:09 PM - Re: Nedd info (JAMES BOWEN) 8. 06:21 PM - Re: Nedd info (Dale Walter) 9. 06:29 PM - Re: Nedd info (Randy Hooper) 10. 06:35 PM - Re: Nedd info (Jerry Springer) 11. 08:51 PM - Re: Nedd info (dan@rdan.com) 12. 09:22 PM - Re: Nedd info (Terry Watson) 13. 10:09 PM - Re: Nedd info (MikeNellis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:23 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: RV-List: Pitot testing I have not done manometer tests on my flying RV-6A, but I have done leak down tests on both the static and pitot system. No leaks in either system. I have done airspeed calibration runs in the air using GPS ground speed while flying North, South, East and West and averaging the results. I run the speed tests at various altitudes and temperatures and calculated the True Airspeed in each case. All the test runs had similar results. At slow speeds (below 80 KTAS) my airspeed indicator is accurate to within one knot. At moderate speeds (120-130 KTAS) my airspeed reads four to five knots fast. At high speeds, (165 KTAS) the error grows to about seven knots. I have one of Van's airspeed indicators and it has no adjustment capability. I find it interesting that Ralph's manometer tests also show a higher than actual airspeed indication at high speeds. I am at a loss as to why this happens and wonder if others have noticed similar errors. Is this typical of Van's airspeed instruments? An acquaintance with an RV-9 and a Dynon system says his airspeed indications are very accurate at all speeds and altitudes. Inquiring minds want to know. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ----------------------------------------------------------------- Time: 11:31:46 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: RV-List: Pitot testing Folks, I have been doing my Pitot testing. I have built a manometer per the EAA chapter 1000 instructions and using the MicroEncoder chart and Kevin Horton's spreadsheet. Here are some results: At lower airspeed numbers, the manometer readings are exact. As the airspeed numbers rise, the manometer readings deviate from the numbers on the spreadsheet that I have (thanks Kevin Horton) to the low side - meaning the manometer reading is lower than specified for a given airspeed indication...also meaning that the airspeed would indicate an amount higher than actual for the correct manometer reading. All are within the 3% or 5kts specified by FAR 23.1323. Also, I am experiencing a very slow bleed-down - on the order of 4 to 7 minutes to lose 100kts of airspeed at 0035'MSL. The only way I found this was walking away to record my numbers in the computer after I was done - when I came back it was lower.....did not see it between tests while I was doing it though. I've looked through FAR 23.1323 - Airspeed indicating system. It does not have anything in it regarding a leak tolerance...unlike the FAR 23.1325 - Static pressure system, which allows 100fpm @ 1000' AGL indicated. What do folks use for a leakdown tolerance? Or is this good enough to not matter? Thanks, Ralph Capen ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:01 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Pitot testing From: James H Nelson Chuck, I have a single scale air speed indicator. I originally had one of Van's multi reading a/s indicator but found it had to much information on the dial. So, since I do all things in Knots and Nautical miles, I bought an indicator that reads only in Knots. I don't care to convert back and forth with speeds. Keep it simple. My EFIS gives me TAS, GS, and IAS (all in Knots). Almost more than I need to know. My testing of the system for pressure and static required me to "glue" all the fittings that are not directly required for instrument removal. I used "Goop" adhesive available at the aviation section at the Home despot. Great stuff. It also holds my static line in places in the cockpit where it droops a bit. It also holds my wiring under my "arm rest" on the copilot side for the ELT panel indicator. Jim ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search features. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1aBnhEU3aOrbWSIUF3XQVpdY6QPAg6OUuYVjsp95bj3DmlV/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:42 AM PST US From: david cook Subject: RV-List: RV9A for Sale Hi All=0APosting this for a friend.=0ARV9A -150 hrs on overhauled o-320 Lyc oming =0Atwo Com Radios=0AGarmin 195 GPS=0ATXP=0AWing Leveler Auto Pilot=0A Intercom=0ACruise speed 150 mph @ 75% power=0AHangered at Venice, Florida =0A=0AAsking $65,000=0ATelephone 941-493-0849 or 941-724-2682=0AAsk for Pau l=0A=0AThanks---- Do Not Archive=0A=0A-=0ADavid R. Cook=0AN815DC - RV-6=0AFlying=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:50 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Pitot testing The average of runs in four cardinal directions is only equal to the TAS if the wind is calm. The error is small if the wind speed is low, but the error can be large if the wind speed is large. If you are going to use this method, pay attention to how much the ground speed varies on the four runs. If the four ground speeds are not too different, then the winds are low, and it is safe to use the average of the four runs. At 150 kt, TAS, if the difference between the highest and lowest ground is less than 25 kt, then the average of the four ground speeds should be within a half kt of the TAS. If the difference between the highest and lowest ground speeds is 35 kt, the error could be as high as 1 kt. If the ground speeds are quite different, then it would be more accurate to use a method that accounts for the effect of wind, such as the four leg option of the NTPS spreadsheet. http://www.ntps.edu/Files/GPS%20PEC.XLS Kevin Horton On 3-Dec-08, at 11:50 , Charles Brame wrote: > I have not done manometer tests on my flying RV-6A, but I have done > leak down tests on both the static and pitot system. No leaks in > either system. > > I have done airspeed calibration runs in the air using GPS ground > speed while flying North, South, East and West and averaging the > results. I run the speed tests at various altitudes and temperatures > and calculated the True Airspeed in each case. All the test runs had > similar results. At slow speeds (below 80 KTAS) my airspeed > indicator is accurate to within one knot. At moderate speeds > (120-130 KTAS) my airspeed reads four to five knots fast. At high > speeds, (165 KTAS) the error grows to about seven knots. I have one > of Van's airspeed indicators and it has no adjustment capability. > > I find it interesting that Ralph's manometer tests also show a > higher than actual airspeed indication at high speeds. I am at a > loss as to why this happens and wonder if others have noticed > similar errors. > > Is this typical of Van's airspeed instruments? An acquaintance with > an RV-9 and a Dynon system says his airspeed indications are very > accurate at all speeds and altitudes. > > Inquiring minds want to know. > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Time: 11:31:46 AM PST US > From: "Ralph E. Capen" > Subject: RV-List: Pitot testing > > > Folks, > > I have been doing my Pitot testing. I have built a manometer per > the EAA chapter > 1000 instructions and using the MicroEncoder chart and Kevin > Horton's spreadsheet. > > Here are some results: > > At lower airspeed numbers, the manometer readings are exact. As the > airspeed numbers > rise, the manometer readings deviate from the numbers on the > spreadsheet > that I have (thanks Kevin Horton) to the low side - meaning the > manometer reading > is lower than specified for a given airspeed indication...also > meaning that > the airspeed would indicate an amount higher than actual for the > correct manometer > reading. All are within the 3% or 5kts specified by FAR 23.1323. > > Also, I am experiencing a very slow bleed-down - on the order of 4 > to 7 minutes > to lose 100kts of airspeed at 0035'MSL. The only way I found this > was walking > away to record my numbers in the computer after I was done - when I > came back > it was lower.....did not see it between tests while I was doing it > though. > > I've looked through FAR 23.1323 - Airspeed indicating system. It > does not have > anything in it regarding a leak tolerance...unlike the FAR 23.1325 - > Static pressure > system, which allows 100fpm @ 1000' AGL indicated. What do folks use > for a leakdown tolerance? Or is this good enough to not matter? > > Thanks, > Ralph Capen > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:02 PM PST US From: bert murillo Subject: RV-List: Nedd info Hi: I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost $10.00,,, a rip off.. Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items you buy.... Thanks for any info on this... Bert rv6a ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:19 PM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? Robert I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity, are not the privilege,or peopole on third world countries. It is abounding in the USA, not only on people with no highschool education, but in the upper ladder, even the President of the US, has shown stupidity many times... NO sense on trying to convince people, on something they already have created in their minds to be true... is a waste of time. robert -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bert murillo Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:26 PM Subject: RV-List: Nedd info Hi: I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost $10.00,,, a rip off.. Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items you buy.... Thanks for any info on this... Bert rv6a ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:58 PM PST US From: JAMES BOWEN Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Isn't the purpose of this list to help as many builders as possible? The di ssemination of information to those who request it. It's kind of what build s this little community of ours. I thought the only dumb question was the o ne not asked............ Jim > From: dale1rv6@comcast.net> To: rv-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV-Li st: Nedd info> Date: Wed=2C 3 Dec 2008 20:44:42 -0500> > --> RV-List messag e posted by: "Dale Walter" dale1rv6@comcast.net > > --> RV-List message pos ted by: bert murillo > > they should know better.. d on't they ever read the instruction manual?> Robert> > I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity=2C are not the privilege=2Cor> peopole on third wor ld countries. It is abounding in the USA=2C not only on> people with no hig hschool education=2C but in the upper ladder=2C even the> President of the US=2C has shown stupidity many times...> > NO sense on trying to convince p eople=2C on something they already have> created in their minds to be true. .. is a waste of time.> > robert> > -----Original Message-----> From: owner -rv-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bert murillo> Sent: Wednesday=2C December 03=2C 2008 8:26 PM> ge posted by: bert murillo > > Hi:> > I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical> name Hw...something=2C t he white material block=2C that holds the> cannopy down=2C on the rear side s=2C for slider..> > I know I can order it from Vans=2C but you what the co st will be...> I recently order a few bolts I needed=2C the total cost of t he> items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost> $10.0 0=2C=2C=2C a rip off..> > Does any one knows where I can buy it=2C besides Van's??> > I never understand =2C how the shipping cost you more than the i tems> you buy....> > Thanks for any info on this...> > > Bert> > rv6a> > > =================> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:27 PM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Hi Jim, If you read carefully below you will see the comments are not mine. I agree with you. Below is a tongue in cheek; feeding Bert his own medicine. No hard feelings intended, only humor. Dale Happy Holidays to all Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JAMES BOWEN Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:09 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Isn't the purpose of this list to help as many builders as possible? The dissemination of information to those who request it. It's kind of what builds this little community of ours. I thought the only dumb question was the one not asked............ Jim > From: dale1rv6@comcast.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:44:42 -0500 > > > > they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? > Robert > > I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity, are not the privilege,or > peopole on third world countries. It is abounding in the USA, not only on > people with no highschool education, but in the upper ladder, even the > President of the US, has shown stupidity many times... > > NO sense on trying to convince people, on something they already have > created in their minds to be true... is a waste of time. > > robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bert murillo > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:26 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Nedd info > > > Hi: > > I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical > name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the > cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. > > I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... > I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the > items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost > $10.00,,, a rip off.. > > Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? > > I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items > you buy.... > > Thanks for any info on this... > > > Bert > > rv6a > > > > &======= > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:26 PM PST US From: "Randy Hooper" Subject: Re: RV-List: Nedd info Bert, I think you are talking about UHMW, Ultra High Molecular Weight material. Here in Nashville I have found it at Nashville Rubber and Gasket. Maybe you have a similar supplier near you. Randy Hooper On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:26 PM, bert murillo wrote: > > Hi: > > I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical > name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the > cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. > > I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... > I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the > items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost > $10.00,,, a rip off.. > > Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? > > I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items > you buy.... > > Thanks for any info on this... > > > Bert > > rv6a > > -- Randy Hooper ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:09 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Nedd info Good one Dale I like it, :-) if they read the instruction manual they would know what that little Hw.....something doo hicky was called. do not archive Dale Walter wrote: > > >they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? >Robert > >I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity, are not the privilege,or >peopole on third world countries. It is abounding in the USA, not only on >people with no highschool education, but in the upper ladder, even the >President of the US, has shown stupidity many times... > >NO sense on trying to convince people, on something they already have >created in their minds to be true... is a waste of time. > >robert > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bert murillo >Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:26 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Nedd info > > >Hi: > >I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical >name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the >cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. > >I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... >I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the >items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost >$10.00,,, a rip off.. > >Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? > >I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items >you buy.... > >Thanks for any info on this... > > >Bert > >rv6a > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:28 PM PST US From: dan@rdan.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? > By Robert These were comments directed to-ME and my question-regarding tubing fla irs, I took them a being a "stupid question" something I should have know, or read about in the manual, I instantly went to the manual and yes,"Sectio n 3, page 3-3 paragraph 6 does has a 31 word explanation that explains exac tly what I asked , So why do-I pay for this forum? because I want to learn to build and fly my airplane, by the way what is "Nedd info"? The closest I could find in my dictionary is Neddy -- donkey ! - Dan, - - --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Dale Walter wrote: From: Dale Walter Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Hi Jim, If you read carefully below you will see the comments are not mine. I agree with you. Below is a tongue in cheek; feeding Bert his own medicine. No hard feelings intended, only humor. Dale - Happy Holidays to all - Do not archive From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of JAMES BOWEN Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:09 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info - Isn't the purpose of this list to help as many builders as possible? The di ssemination of information to those who request it. It's kind of what build s this little community of ours.-I thought the only dumb question was the one not asked............ - Jim - > From: dale1rv6@comcast.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:44:42 -0500 > > > > they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? > Robert > > I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity, are not the privilege,or > peopole on third world countries. It is abounding in the USA , not only o n > people with no highschool education, but in the upper ladder, even the > President of the US , has shown stupidity many times... > > NO sense on trying to convince people, on something they already have > created in their minds to be true... is a waste of time. > > robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bert murillo > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:26 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Nedd info > > > Hi: > > I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical > name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the > cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. > > I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... > I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the > items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost > $10.00,,, a rip off.. > > Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? > > I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items > you buy.... > > Thanks for any info on this... > > > Bert > > rv6a > > > > &======= > > > - -http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:59 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Dan, Don't worry. Some people that know everything want to make sure you know that they know everything. But they don't seem to know where the delete key is. Terry From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dan@rdan.com Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:51 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? > By Robert These were comments directed to ME and my question regarding tubing flairs, I took them a being a "stupid question" something I should have know, or read about in the manual, I instantly went to the manual and yes,"Section 3, page 3-3 paragraph 6 does has a 31 word explanation that explains exactly what I asked , So why do I pay for this forum? because I want to learn to build and fly my airplane, by the way what is "Nedd info"? The closest I could find in my dictionary is Neddy -- donkey ! Dan, --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Dale Walter wrote: From: Dale Walter Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Hi Jim, If you read carefully below you will see the comments are not mine. I agree with you. Below is a tongue in cheek; feeding Bert his own medicine. No hard feelings intended, only humor. Dale Happy Holidays to all Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JAMES BOWEN Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:09 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info Isn't the purpose of this list to help as many builders as possible? The dissemination of information to those who request it. It's kind of what builds this little community of ours. I thought the only dumb question was the one not asked............ Jim > From: dale1rv6@comcast.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Nedd info > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:44:42 -0500 > dale1rv6@comcast.net > > > they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? > Robert > > I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity, are not the privilege,or > peopole on third world countries. It is abounding in the USA , not only on > people with no highschool education, but in the upper ladder, even the > President of the US , has shown stupidity many times... > > NO sense on trying to convince people, on something they already have > created in their minds to be true... is a waste of time. > > robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bert murillo > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:26 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Nedd info > > > Hi: > > I need to buy one of the blocks I cannot remember the technical > name Hw...something, the white material block, that holds the > cannopy down, on the rear sides, for slider.. > > I know I can order it from Vans, but you what the cost will be... > I recently order a few bolts I needed, the total cost of the > items was $11.80..the so called shipping and Handling was almost > $10.00,,, a rip off.. > > Does any one knows where I can buy it, besides Van's?? > > I never understand , how the shipping cost you more than the items > you buy.... > > Thanks for any info on this... > > > Bert > > rv6a > > > > &======= > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:30 PM PST US From: MikeNellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Nedd info Is it just me or is the following quoted paragraph an oxymoron? The writer states, "I have always said........" and then goes on to deliver a paragraph filled with punctuation and grammar mistakes. It just proves the validity of his statement by using himself as an example. Come on, if you're going to discuss ignorance and stupidity at least proof your comments before sending them. Mike > > > they should know better.. don't they ever read the instruction manual? > Robert > > I have always said: Ignorance and stupidity, are not the privilege,or > peopole on third world countries. It is abounding in the USA, not only on > people with no highschool education, but in the upper ladder, even the > President of the US, has shown stupidity many times... > > NO sense on trying to convince people, on something they already have > created in their minds to be true... is a waste of time. > > robert > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.