---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/05/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Re: IO-360-B Power Chart? (Kevin Horton) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: Need info (John Bright) 3. 05:45 AM - Re: IO-360-B Power Chart? (Tracy Crook) 4. 06:01 AM - Re: IO-360-B Power Chart? (Tracy Crook) 5. 06:07 AM - Re: Need info (dan@rdan.com) 6. 06:41 AM - Tube flaring (Ron Lee) 7. 06:41 AM - Re: IO-360-B Power Chart? (Kelly McMullen) 8. 07:53 AM - Flyboy Accessories (Frazier, Vincent A) 9. 07:54 AM - Re: Need info (Brian Huffaker) 10. 11:41 AM - Re: IO-360-B Power Chart? (Kevin Horton) 11. 12:02 PM - Re:Tube flairing (Dale Ensing) 12. 02:06 PM - Re: Need info (Gordon or Marge) 13. 05:01 PM - help (bert murillo) 14. 05:03 PM - question (bert murillo) 15. 05:19 PM - Re: question (Robert Cutter) 16. 05:21 PM - Re: help (scott bilinski) 17. 05:24 PM - Re: help (Bob) 18. 07:22 PM - Re: Re:Tube flairing (dan@rdan.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:53 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360-B Power Chart? The problem with these rules of thumb that rely on summing hundreds of rpm and MP is that they don't take the effect of altitude into account. The usual one that you hear is sum of 48 for 75%. But, on an O-360-A engine, 2500 rpm and 23 inches will give you about 73% power at sea level, 77% power at 4000 ft and 82% at 8000 ft. If you can identify a type certificated aircraft with constant speed prop that used this engine, you could try to find a POH, and copy the power chart. Another option would be to see how the power chart for the IO-360-B engines compare to the one for the O-360-A engines. if they are close, you could use my O-360-A series power spreadsheet: http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/phplinks/out.php?&ID=401 Kevin Horton On 4-Dec-08, at 22:24 , Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Simple. Add MAP and rpm/100. total=50~75%, =47~65%, =44~55% These > rule of thumb are accurate within 3% power, depending on > installation. If you want to be conservative, use 49, 46 and 43. > > J Riffel wrote: >> Does ANYONE have (or know where I can find) a SIMPLE power chart >> for the Lycoming/Superior IO-360 B series engine? >> I need something that allows me to fill-in a chart similar to this >> For 55% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >> (99hp) map map map >> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >> ... >> For 65% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >> (117hp) map map map >> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >> ... >> For 75% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >> (135hp) map map map >> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >> ... >> I can read the the Goofy Lycoming Chart ("Figure 3-23 Sea Level and >> Altitude Performance - IO-360-B1A"). I've been studying it for >> DAYS. But I defy anyone to use that chart to tell me within 20 >> minutes what RPM, MAP to use at 5,000' to get 65% power. The chart >> is built to derive HP at an altitude if you know RPM and MP. >> Instead I need a table for my POH so I can run at a %HP if I've >> been assigned an altitude. I've sent messages to both Lycoming and >> Superior and they just think I can't read their table. >> Thanks in Advance. >> * >> >> * -- Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:46 AM PST US From: John Bright Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info What type of cutter is there other than the sharp rolling wheel?=0A=0Ado no t archive=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Vanremog@aol .com" =0ATo: rv-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, Dece mber 4, 2008 11:17:49 PM=0ASubject: Re: RV-List: Need info=0A=0AAnother thi ng builders often do without thinking is to use those sharp =0Awheel tube c utters that work harden the end of the tubing, try to flair this =0Aarea an d end up with cracks. You can use this type of cutter but you are =0Agoing to have to cut the tubing slightly greater than final size =0Aand then fil e off the hardened alloy to get down to the dead soft =0Amaterial. This is akin to Van's instructions to redrill to size the =0Amechanically punched holes in skins in order to remove the slight area =0Aof work hardened mater ial.=0A =0A =0AN1GV (RV-6A, Flying 908hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon =0AValle y) =0A =0AIn a message dated 12/4/2008 2:56:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, =0Aeanderson@carolina.rr.com writes:=0AJim, I=92m not an A&P, so not certa in what the correct answer to your question should be about using emery cl oth. Ideally, the answer is to buy one of those very expensive =93double flair=94 makers ' it folds that ragged end under and gives you a smooth joint. No, I didn=92t spring for one either {:>)=0A =0A =0A But, one thing you can to before you make the flare is to smooth the ends as much as pos sible after cutting them. Small cracks lead to bigger cracks when you fl air. The second thing is that frequently ragged ends are caused by having too much tube length sticking out of the clamp for flaring, that leads to over stretching and ragged edges. No I don=92t know of the magic formula ' but there probably is one somewhere. =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AMake your life easier with all your friends, e=new- =======================0A=0A=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:33 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360-B Power Chart? Hate to sound critical, but I have to agree with Lycoming. Do you have a tach? Do you have MP gauge? If so, what is the problem? Altitude has almost nothing to do with it other than a small effect on pumping losses which can safely be ignored in this case. Tracy Crook On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:16 PM, J Riffel wrote: > Does ANYONE have (or know where I can find) a SIMPLE power chart for the > Lycoming/Superior IO-360 B series engine? > I need something that allows me to fill-in a chart similar to this > > For 55% 2300 2400 2500 RPM > (99hp) map map map > sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n > 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > ... > > For 65% 2300 2400 2500 RPM > (117hp) map map map > sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n > 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > ... > > For 75% 2300 2400 2500 RPM > (135hp) map map map > sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n > 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > ... > > I can read the the Goofy Lycoming Chart ("Figure 3-23 Sea Level and > Altitude Performance - IO-360-B1A"). I've been studying it for DAYS. But I > defy anyone to use that chart to tell me within 20 minutes what RPM, MAP to > use at 5,000' to get 65% power. The chart is built to derive HP at an > altitude if you know RPM and MP. Instead I need a table for my POH so I can > run at a %HP if I've been assigned an altitude. I've sent messages to both > Lycoming and Superior and they just think I can't read their table. > > Thanks in Advance. > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:58 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360-B Power Chart? Wow, this looks like about 20 HP in pumping losses at sea level at 23" MP. Sounds like a lot. I'm interested, where did you get those figures? I've been using figures a bit lower than this in my engine and instrument development. But as long as we are ignoring fuel flow, the effect of mixture on HP is pretty big. All the commercial pilots I've flown with use the fuel flow gauge to set power. The physics are the same in all of them but maybe I have underestimated the differences between Lycoming and auto engines. Tracy Crook Mazda rotary powered RV-4 On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:38 AM, Kevin Horton wrote: > > The problem with these rules of thumb that rely on summing hundreds of rpm > and MP is that they don't take the effect of altitude into account. The > usual one that you hear is sum of 48 for 75%. But, on an O-360-A engine, > 2500 rpm and 23 inches will give you about 73% power at sea level, 77% power > at 4000 ft and 82% at 8000 ft. > > If you can identify a type certificated aircraft with constant speed prop > that used this engine, you could try to find a POH, and copy the power > chart. Another option would be to see how the power chart for the IO-360-B > engines compare to the one for the O-360-A engines. if they are close, you > could use my O-360-A series power spreadsheet: > > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/phplinks/out.php?&ID=401 > > Kevin Horton > > > On 4-Dec-08, at 22:24 , Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> >> Simple. Add MAP and rpm/100. total=50~75%, =47~65%, =44~55% These rule >> of thumb are accurate within 3% power, depending on installation. If you >> want to be conservative, use 49, 46 and 43. >> >> J Riffel wrote: >> >>> Does ANYONE have (or know where I can find) a SIMPLE power chart for the >>> Lycoming/Superior IO-360 B series engine? >>> I need something that allows me to fill-in a chart similar to this >>> For 55% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >>> (99hp) map map map >>> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> ... >>> For 65% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >>> (117hp) map map map >>> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> ... >>> For 75% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >>> (135hp) map map map >>> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> ... >>> I can read the the Goofy Lycoming Chart ("Figure 3-23 Sea Level and >>> Altitude Performance - IO-360-B1A"). I've been studying it for DAYS. But I >>> defy anyone to use that chart to tell me within 20 minutes what RPM, MAP to >>> use at 5,000' to get 65% power. The chart is built to derive HP at an >>> altitude if you know RPM and MP. Instead I need a table for my POH so I can >>> run at a %HP if I've been assigned an altitude. I've sent messages to both >>> Lycoming and Superior and they just think I can't read their table. >>> Thanks in Advance. >>> * >>> >>> * >>> >> > > > -- > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:44 AM PST US From: dan@rdan.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Does any lubricant like boelube help with the cuttting of flairing process? --- On Fri, 12/5/08, John Bright wrote: From: John Bright Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info What type of cutter is there other than the sharp rolling wheel? do not archive From: "Vanremog@aol.com" Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:17:49 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Another thing builders often do without thinking is to use those sharp whee l tube cutters that work harden the end of the tubing, try to flair this ar ea and end up with cracks.- You can use this type of cutter but you are g oing to have to cut the tubing slightly-greater than-final-size and t hen file off the hardened alloy to get down to the dead soft material.- T his is akin to Van's instructions to redrill to size the mechanically-pun ched holes in-skins in order to remove the slight area of work hardened m aterial. - - N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 908hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)- - In a message dated 12/4/2008 2:56:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eanderson@ carolina.rr.com writes: Jim, I=92m not an A&P, so not certain what the correct answer to your quest ion should be about using emery cloth.- Ideally, the answer is to buy one of those very expensive =93double flair=94 makers ' it folds that ragged end under and gives you a smooth joint. No, I didn=92t spring for one eith er {:>) - - -But, one thing you can to before you make the flare is to smooth the end s as much as possible after cutting them.- Small cracks lead to bigger cr acks when you flair.- The second thing is that frequently ragged ends are caused by having too much tube length sticking out of the clamp for flarin g, that leads to over stretching and ragged edges.- No I don=92t know of the magic formula -' but there probably is one somewhere. - - Make your life easier with all your friends, e=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vani ty&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:33 AM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: RV-List: Tube flaring Just a suggestion folks. Thi subject..or whatever you prefer, makes more sense from an archive point of view. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bright To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:54 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info What type of cutter is there other than the sharp rolling wheel? do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "Vanremog@aol.com" To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:17:49 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Another thing builders often do without thinking is to use those sharp wheel tube cutters that work harden the end of the tubing, try to flair this area and end up with cracks. You can use this type of cutter but you are going to have to cut the tubing slightly greater than final size and then file off the hardened alloy to get down to the dead soft material. This is akin to Van's instructions to redrill to size the mechanically punched holes in skins in order to remove the slight area of work hardened material. N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 908hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) In a message dated 12/4/2008 2:56:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: Jim, I=92m not an A&P, so not certain what the correct answer to your question should be about using emery cloth. Ideally, the answer is to buy one of those very expensive =93double flair=94 makers ' it folds that ragged end under and gives you a smooth joint. No, I didn=92t spring for one either {:>) But, one thing you can to before you make the flare is to smooth the ends as much as possible after cutting them. Small cracks lead to bigger cracks when you flair. The second thing is that frequently ragged ends are caused by having too much tube length sticking out of the clamp for flaring, that leads to over stretching and ragged edges. No I don=92t know of the magic formula ' but there probably is one somewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Make your life easier with all your friends, e=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:41 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360-B Power Chart? That is one very good induction system if you can get 23" at 8000 ft. In my Mooney owners manual, for its IO-360A1A, 2500 and 23" at 7500 is 151 hp, or 75.5%. However, with the IO-360-A3B6 engine it takes 25 squared, supposedly, to get 75% even though the J model with that engine has a significantly better induction system than my older Mooney. Obviously the B series engine is only rated for 180hp, so the 75% number will be 180hp There is nothing magic about 75% or 70% or any other round number. Many production aircraft now show 78% for their marketing desired cruise numbers. The engines are generally rated for continuous use at 100% power. One just needs to use mixture settings appropriate to the power. If you choose to operate lean of peak EGT, the fuel flow will entirely control the power, such that 10gph will be 149 horsepower on the normally aspirated IO-360A series with standard compression. For the B series a 75% figure would be 9.0 gph to give 135 hp. Kevin Horton wrote: > > The problem with these rules of thumb that rely on summing hundreds of > rpm and MP is that they don't take the effect of altitude into > account. The usual one that you hear is sum of 48 for 75%. But, on > an O-360-A engine, 2500 rpm and 23 inches will give you about 73% > power at sea level, 77% power at 4000 ft and 82% at 8000 ft. > > If you can identify a type certificated aircraft with constant speed > prop that used this engine, you could try to find a POH, and copy the > power chart. Another option would be to see how the power chart for > the IO-360-B engines compare to the one for the O-360-A engines. if > they are close, you could use my O-360-A series power spreadsheet: > > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/phplinks/out.php?&ID=401 > > Kevin Horton > > > On 4-Dec-08, at 22:24 , Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> >> Simple. Add MAP and rpm/100. total=50~75%, =47~65%, =44~55% These >> rule of thumb are accurate within 3% power, depending on >> installation. If you want to be conservative, use 49, 46 and 43. >> >> J Riffel wrote: >>> Does ANYONE have (or know where I can find) a SIMPLE power chart for >>> the Lycoming/Superior IO-360 B series engine? >>> I need something that allows me to fill-in a chart similar to this >>> For 55% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >>> (99hp) map map map >>> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> ... >>> For 65% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >>> (117hp) map map map >>> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> ... >>> For 75% 2300 2400 2500 RPM >>> (135hp) map map map >>> sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n >>> ... >>> I can read the the Goofy Lycoming Chart ("Figure 3-23 Sea Level and >>> Altitude Performance - IO-360-B1A"). I've been studying it for DAYS. >>> But I defy anyone to use that chart to tell me within 20 minutes >>> what RPM, MAP to use at 5,000' to get 65% power. The chart is built >>> to derive HP at an altitude if you know RPM and MP. Instead I need a >>> table for my POH so I can run at a %HP if I've been assigned an >>> altitude. I've sent messages to both Lycoming and Superior and they >>> just think I can't read their table. >>> Thanks in Advance. >>> * >>> >>> * > > > -- > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:17 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Flyboy Accessories From: "Frazier, Vincent A" SNIP<<<>>>>> SNIP Bert, Simply click on the "Contact Us" link. It's on the left side of every page. FWIW, our wingwalk material is at this URL: http://www.flyboyaccessories.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info &cPath=1&products_id 7 It is $6/running foot and is 12" wide, black, non-abrasive and self adhesive. Thanks, Vince Frazier http://www.flyboyaccessories.com/ Flyboy Accessories 3965 Caborn Road Mount Vernon, IN 47620 812-464-1839 office M-TH 812-985-7309 shop Fri-Sun ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:19 AM PST US From: Brian Huffaker Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info On Fri, 5 Dec 2008, dan@rdan.com wrote: > Does any lubricant like boelube help with the cuttting of flairing process? the instructions that came withmy flaring tool said to put a drop of oil on the cone. Never tried using it without, so don't know how much difference it makes. Brian Huffaker, DSWL (bifft@xmission.com) RV-8A 80091 fitting fuel vent tubing. 1/4 Starduster II N23UT flying ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:32 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360-B Power Chart? Those numbers come from a spreadsheet that replicates the Lycoming power chart. It isn't a perfect match to Lycoming's chart, but it is fairly close. Just as a cross check, I went into the chart to confirm what it says. I made that spreadsheet a long time ago, and I now see that the current Lycoming Operator's Manual has a newer power chart, which is quite different. My old one is based on Lycoming curve 10350- A (I have a copy in my filing cabinent). My newer Lycoming manual has curve 13358. Looking at 2500 rpm and 23", I get the following powers from (in order) my old spreadsheet, Lycoming curve 10350-A and Lycoming curve 13358: sea level: 131 hp (73%), 131 hp (73%), 123 hp (68%) 4000 ft: 139 hp (77%), 139 hp (77%), 134 hp (74%) 8000 ft: 147 hp (82%), 146 hp (81%), 144 hp (80%) I won't attempt to guess why there is such a large difference between these two Lycoming power charts, both of which are for the O-360-A and -C series engines. I don't completely understand why they show such a large difference in power with altitude, but I suspect it goes beyond pumping losses. I suspect there is better cylinder scavenging, and better cylinder filling if there is less exhaust back pressure. Kevin Horton On 5-Dec-08, at 09:01 , Tracy Crook wrote: > Wow, this looks like about 20 HP in pumping losses at sea level at > 23" MP. Sounds like a lot. I'm interested, where did you get > those figures? I've been using figures a bit lower than this in my > engine and instrument development. > > But as long as we are ignoring fuel flow, the effect of mixture on > HP is pretty big. All the commercial pilots I've flown with use the > fuel flow gauge to set power. > > The physics are the same in all of them but maybe I have > underestimated the differences between Lycoming and auto engines. > > Tracy Crook > Mazda rotary powered RV-4 > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:38 AM, Kevin Horton > wrote: > > The problem with these rules of thumb that rely on summing hundreds > of rpm and MP is that they don't take the effect of altitude into > account. The usual one that you hear is sum of 48 for 75%. But, on > an O-360-A engine, 2500 rpm and 23 inches will give you about 73% > power at sea level, 77% power at 4000 ft and 82% at 8000 ft. > > If you can identify a type certificated aircraft with constant speed > prop that used this engine, you could try to find a POH, and copy > the power chart. Another option would be to see how the power chart > for the IO-360-B engines compare to the one for the O-360-A > engines. if they are close, you could use my O-360-A series power > spreadsheet: > > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/phplinks/out.php?&ID=401 > > Kevin Horton > > > On 4-Dec-08, at 22:24 , Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > Simple. Add MAP and rpm/100. total=50~75%, =47~65%, =44~55% These > rule of thumb are accurate within 3% power, depending on > installation. If you want to be conservative, use 49, 46 and 43. > > J Riffel wrote: > Does ANYONE have (or know where I can find) a SIMPLE power chart for > the Lycoming/Superior IO-360 B series engine? > I need something that allows me to fill-in a chart similar to this > For 55% 2300 2400 2500 RPM > (99hp) map map map > sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n > 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > ... > For 65% 2300 2400 2500 RPM > (117hp) map map map > sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n > 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > ... > For 75% 2300 2400 2500 RPM > (135hp) map map map > sea level nn.n nn.n nn.n > 2K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > 4K ft nn.n nn.n nn.n > ... > I can read the the Goofy Lycoming Chart ("Figure 3-23 Sea Level and > Altitude Performance - IO-360-B1A"). I've been studying it for DAYS. > But I defy anyone to use that chart to tell me within 20 minutes > what RPM, MAP to use at 5,000' to get 65% power. The chart is built > to derive HP at an altitude if you know RPM and MP. Instead I need a > table for my POH so I can run at a %HP if I've been assigned an > altitude. I've sent messages to both Lycoming and Superior and they > just think I can't read their table. > Thanks in Advance. > * > > * > > > -- > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:56 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: RV-List: Re:Tube flairing Yes, I always use a form of Boelube and it gives a very smooth cut and fini sh to the flair. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: dan@rdan.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Does any lubricant like boelube help with the cuttting of flairing process? --- On Fri, 12/5/08, John Bright wrote: From: John Bright Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info To: rv-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 4:54 AM What type of cutter is there other than the sharp rolling wheel? do not archive ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Vanremog@aol.com" To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:17:49 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Another thing builders often do without thinking is to use those sharp wheel tube cutters that work harden the end of the tubing, try to fla ir this area and end up with cracks. You can use this type of cutter but y ou are going to have to cut the tubing slightly greater than final size and then file off the hardened alloy to get down to the dead soft material. T his is akin to Van's instructions to redrill to size the mechanically punch ed holes in skins in order to remove the slight area of work hardened mater ial. N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 908hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley) In a message dated 12/4/2008 2:56:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: Jim, I=92m not an A&P, so not certain what the correct answer t o your question should be about using emery cloth. Ideally, the answer is to buy one of those very expensive =93double flair=94 makers ' it folds t hat ragged end under and gives you a smooth joint. No, I didn=92t spring fo r one either {:>) But, one thing you can to before you make the flare is to smooth the ends as much as possible after cutting them. Small cracks lead to big ger cracks when you flair. The second thing is that frequently ragged ends are caused by having too much tube length sticking out of the clamp for fl aring, that leads to over stretching and ragged edges. No I don=92t know o f the magic formula ' but there probably is one somewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your life easier with all your friends, e=new-dp&icid=aolc om40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now. blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution t=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:45 PM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge" Subject: RE: RV-List: Need info -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Bright Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:54 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info What type of cutter is there other than the sharp rolling wheel? John et al: A procedure you might try that has worked for me is: saw cut the tubing clamp in flaring vise slightly proud file flush with vise using a mill smooth file chamfer tubing i.d. end with countersink and deburr outer diameter with scraping tool blow and/or wash out chips form flare with a lightly lubricated cone inspect and clean as necessary The vise that I have with my flaring set does not have a conical female form but rather a radiused shoulder that provides a match with the sleeve you will use. The cone forms the flare but only irons the metal at the radius in the vise. The RV-4 has been flying since 1993 with no leaks or flare failures. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:55 PM PST US From: bert murillo Subject: RV-List: help Hi: I have posted a message boefore but no answer. Does any one have the tel. no. for " Flyboy Accesories"? Some mentioned they sell the wing walk material, which I want to order. but did not go thru... Are they in business now, or not? I tried sending email lbut neither ...\\ Appreciate any info. Bert rv6a do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:21 PM PST US From: bert murillo Subject: RV-List: question Hi: Does any one know where I can buy the material, to make the blocks, that support the sliding cannopy, on rear sides. Is the white maeterial, I know I can order from Van's, but the shipping is going to cost me more than the piece of material.. I do not know the technical name for this.. Any help appreciated. bert rv6a do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:52 PM PST US From: "Robert Cutter" Subject: Re: RV-List: question Bert, It is called UHMW and you can buy it at a local rubber and gasket store. Mill supply stores may carry it as well. RVRC ----- Original Message ----- From: "bert murillo" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: RV-List: question > > Hi: > > > Does any one know where I can buy the material, to make the blocks, > that support the sliding cannopy, on rear sides. > > Is the white maeterial, I know I can order from Van's, but the shipping > is going to cost me more than the piece of material.. > > I do not know the technical name for this.. > > Any help appreciated. > > bert > > rv6a > > do not archive > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:54 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: help On their web site under contact us: 812-464-1839 Scott ----- Original Message ---- From: bert murillo Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 4:59:17 PM Subject: RV-List: help Hi: I have posted a message boefore but no answer. Does any one have the tel. no. for " Flyboy Accesories"? Some mentioned they sell the wing walk material, which I want to order. but did not go thru... Are they in business now, or not? I tried sending email lbut neither ...\\ Appreciate any info. Bert rv6a do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:11 PM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: help bert murillo wrote: > > Hi: I have posted a message boefore but no answer. > > Does any one have the tel. no. for " Flyboy Accesories"? > Some mentioned they sell the wing walk material, which I want to order. > but did not go thru... Are they in business now, or not? > > > I tried sending email lbut neither ...\\ > > > Appreciate any info. > > Bert > > rv6a > > > do not archive > Bert, United States Plastic sells UHMW in quite a few different "styles". They also sell thin UHMW self adhesive tape that's great for "rub protection" like where the flaps rub on the bottom of the top wing skin. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp?cookie_test=1 Bob Skinner (former RV builder and flyer) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:13 PM PST US From: dan@rdan.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Tube flairing Today I received from Aircraft tool supply my Parker 37* flaring tool, wow this thing is very cool, a nice piece of hardware. The first practice flair looked just about perfect, This thing will work, thanks for- the education, Dan -8 --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Dale Ensing wrote: From: Dale Ensing Subject: RV-List: Re:Tube flairing Yes, I always use a form of Boelube and it gives a very smooth cut and-fi nish to the flair. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: dan@rdan.com Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Does any lubricant like boelube help with the cuttting of flairing process? --- On Fri, 12/5/08, John Bright wrote: From: John Bright Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info #yiv570456825 #yiv1921419571 DIV { MARGIN:0px;} What type of cutter is there other than the sharp rolling wheel? do not archive From: "Vanremog@aol.com" Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:17:49 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Need info Another thing builders often do without thinking is to use those sharp whee l tube cutters that work harden the end of the tubing, try to flair this ar ea and end up with cracks.- You can use this type of cutter but you are g oing to have to cut the tubing slightly-greater than-final-size and t hen file off the hardened alloy to get down to the dead soft material.- T his is akin to Van's instructions to redrill to size the mechanically-pun ched holes in-skins in order to remove the slight area of work hardened m aterial. - - N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 908hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)- - In a message dated 12/4/2008 2:56:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eanderson@ carolina.rr.com writes: Jim, I=92m not an A&P, so not certain what the correct answer to your quest ion should be about using emery cloth.- Ideally, the answer is to buy one of those very expensive =93double flair=94 makers ' it folds that ragged end under and gives you a smooth joint. No, I didn=92t spring for one eith er {:>) - - -But, one thing you can to before you make the flare is to smooth the end s as much as possible after cutting them.- Small cracks lead to bigger cr acks when you flair.- The second thing is that frequently ragged ends are caused by having too much tube length sticking out of the clamp for flarin g, that leads to over stretching and ragged edges.- No I don=92t know of the magic formula -' but there probably is one somewhere. - - Make your life easier with all your friends, e=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vani ty&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now. blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution t=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com .matronics.com/contribution //www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.