Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: Pro seal paint (linn Walters)
2. 05:00 AM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (linn Walters)
3. 10:08 AM - Instrument Panel - Powercoat Thickness? (Matt Dralle)
4. 10:25 AM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (Paul Besing)
5. 11:07 AM - Re: Pro seal paint (Charles Kuss)
6. 12:36 PM - Re: Instrument Panel - Powercoat Thickness? (n801bh@netzero.com)
7. 03:50 PM - Re: RV/Rocket Steering Link (dick martin)
8. 04:32 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (Kelly McMullen)
9. 05:10 PM - hybrid autopilot (Bill Judge)
10. 05:45 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (linn Walters)
11. 08:02 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (Paul Besing)
12. 08:38 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (Kelly McMullen)
13. 09:21 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (linn Walters)
14. 10:42 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (Bruce Gray)
15. 10:59 PM - Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? (RICHARD MILLER)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Pro seal paint |
Sherman Butler wrote:
> Hi
> I want to use Van's tank sealant to paint a rusted steel tank removed
> from a welder. Pinholes were discovered after it was sandblasted.
> What is the best thinner to thin the sealant to a paintable
> consistency. I currently have lacquer thinner and toluene.
>
I found the data sheet online which said it contained toluene. I figure
that would work.
Linn
>
>
>
>
> Sherman Butler
> RV-7a Wings
> N497GS reserved
> Carlsbad, NM
>
>
> *
>
> *
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
Michael Karatsonyi wrote:
> i have just started my empenage and wanted to know what everyone is
> using for primer?
I'm not using primers at all. Strictly rimfire. ;-)
Linn
do not archive
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: chuck@chuckdirect.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:50:01 -0800
>
> A little snippy there Finch. Actually I've been flying for forty
> years and have had only one vac pump failure and that was in VFR
> conditions which is what I'm rated for. Nothing unsafe there.
> Believe it or not, there's actually some of us out here who don't have
> unlimited funds, as apparently you do, who are grateful to be able to
> just build and fly a machine with older technology. But if I made a
> habit of bungling into IFR I'd probably make some changes in my
> system, but I don't, so I agree with Kelly; why spend a bunch of money
> on a system I don't need? Frankly, I'd rather spend my limited flying
> funds on avgas rather than an expensive system that I don't need...or
> want.
>
> Chuck
> RV9A 250 hours (sold)
> RV10 two months to completion
>
>
> F*rom:* Ralph Finch
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:53 PM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>
> Let's see...fly around with unreliable vacuum pumps with a history of
> repeated failures...or use modern equipment to make flying easier and
> safer. No brainer to me! Always easy to spend my money on the better
> choice :-) :-)
>
> RF
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Kelly
> McMullen
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:45 PM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>
> Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
> stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600
> gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery
> and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for
> IFR. Always easy to spend other's money. ;-)
>
> Ralph Finch wrote:
>
> Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
>
> Ralph Finch
> Davis, CA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Knicholas2@aol.com
> *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>
> I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in
> 300 hours flight time. Is there another brand that people
> have had better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kim Nicholas
> RV9A
> Auburn, WA
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
> *
>
> *
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Suspicious message? Theres an alert for that. Get your Hotmail
> account now.
> <http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008>
>
> *
>
> *
Message 3
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| Subject: | Instrument Panel - Powercoat Thickness? |
Dear Listers,
I laid out the RV-8 panel in a CAD program and had experimentalair.com cut a clear
Lexan mockup for fitting. I highly recommend using a Lexan mockup first as
its a lot cheaper and it really helps to be able to see through the panel to
locate brackets, etc. Also, Nick Burns over at ExperimpntalAir has be *super*
to work with on this project. I've been emailing him DXF versions of the panel
and he made a number of suggestions that I incorporated into the CAD drawing.
I sent him the final CAD version Wednesday and he cut the Lexan panel on
a FloJet and I received it Friday. It's a work of art!
So here's my question. On the hole cutouts, I used a micrometer to measure each
instrument, then used these exact measurements in the CAD drawing. I added
.005" to both X and Y to allow for easier sliding in and out of the instrument
which has turned out to be exactly the right amount. BUT, there's no powercoating
on the panel yet. I'm planning on a simi-flat black coating. What is the
thickness of the powercoating? How much should I increase the cutout size
to account for the coating and still have the nice, tight, fit that I have now?
Here's a link to my Builder's Log for anyone that is interested in checking out
more on the project:
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=dralle&project=619&category=0
Thanks for the feedback,
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV (res)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
"to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
You do not need separate systems for IFR.
Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator, DG, turn
coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move on. I grew
up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of instruments. But,
for building a new aircraft, it really makes no sense going vacuum considering
the prices for an experimental EFIS. Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex
and in the end MORE expensive for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul
due to very mild aerobatics)
Paul Besing
________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro.
Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential
bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy
to spend other's money.;-)
Ralph Finch wrote:
Dump the
pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph
Finch
Davis, CA
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Knicholas2@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300
hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had better
luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
Thanks!
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pro seal paint |
Sherman,
The manufacturer recommends thinning with Toluene. Lacquer thinner is 95% Toluene.
I had the lacquer thinner on hand, so I always used that. I've built 3 sets
of tanks (RV8A/RV6A/RV9A) and none had leaks.
Charlie Kuss
--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Pro seal paint
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 12:01 AM
> Hi
> I want to use Van's tank sealant to paint a rusted
> steel tank removed from a welder. Pinholes were discovered
> after it was sandblasted. What is the best thinner to thin
> the sealant to a paintable consistency. I currently have
> lacquer thinner and toluene.
>
>
> Sherman Butler
> RV-7a Wings
> N497GS reserved
> Carlsbad, NM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument Panel - Powercoat Thickness? |
Depending on the product used to powercoat it varies on thickness. .005
total on a hole is just .0025 per side. Powercoating, even if done as l
ight as possible will be thicker then that. I am sure there is a powerco
ating guy on the list but my wild guess is minimum clearance to add to a
instrument hole should be .012 or .006 per side, even that might be a t
ight fit.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com> wrote:
Dear Listers,
I laid out the RV-8 panel in a CAD program and had experimentalair.com c
ut a clear Lexan mockup for fitting. I highly recommend using a Lexan m
ockup first as its a lot cheaper and it really helps to be able to see t
hrough the panel to locate brackets, etc. Also, Nick Burns over at Expe
rimpntalAir has be *super* to work with on this project. I've been emai
ling him DXF versions of the panel and he made a number of suggestions t
hat I incorporated into the CAD drawing. I sent him the final CAD versi
on Wednesday and he cut the Lexan panel on a FloJet and I received it Fr
iday. It's a work of art!
So here's my question. On the hole cutouts, I used a micrometer to meas
ure each instrument, then used these exact measurements in the CAD drawi
ng. I added .005" to both X and Y to allow for easier sliding in and ou
t of the instrument which has turned out to be exactly the right amount.
BUT, there's no powercoating on the panel yet. I'm planning on a simi
-flat black coating. What is the thickness of the powercoating? How mu
ch should I increase the cutout size to account for the coating and stil
l have the nice, tight, fit that I have now?
Here's a link to my Builder's Log for anyone that is interested in check
ing out more on the project:
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=dralle&project=
619&category=0
Thanks for the feedback,
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV (res)
____________________________________________________________
Become a Graphic Designer and earn up to $150/ hour. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6ryAdIcFOlorl8JY597XsE
qXupGfrx2BnEPU67N9PvuAhYK8Lx/
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV/Rocket Steering Link |
Gabe,
I have just installed my third Steering Lind in over 1500 hours on
my RV8. 90% of my take offs and landings are on grass fields, so I
think that 500 hours apiece on grass is pretty good service life.
I find that it is much more responsive than the chain and spring
arrangement that is standard Vans equipment, also,
it is much quieter and than the chain arrangement that rattles. Good
luck.
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
the fast one
----- Original Message -----
From: ferrerg@comcast.net
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV/Rocket Steering Link
I am considering replacing the Van's tail wheel steering chains in my
RV6 with an "RV/Rocket Steering Link".
Please, I would appreciate any advice from the listers.
I'm specially concerned about landing performance under strong cross
winds and maintenance issues.
Thank you
--
Gabe A Ferrer
RV6 N2GX
South Florida's Treasure Coast
email: ferrerg@comcast.net
cell: 561 758 8894
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
Yes, you can choose to operate without independent systems in an
experimental aircraft. It is your hide and your unsuspecting
passengers. It is illegal in certificated aircraft, for very good
reasons. See Part 23.1309. Most builders aspire to build aircraft safer
than certified spam cans.
A Dynon is not truly independent, as it depends on the electrical buss.
It's backup battery may or may not be satisfactory. Electrical failures
occur at least as often as vacuum failures.
If an EFIS fails and you don't have some steam gauges, you have no
backup, so you are going to need at least an attitude gyro and airspeed
and altimeter anyway. So the cost comparison is really vacuum pump and
accessories and attitude gyro, vs a second, totally independent
separately powered EFIS.
Or you can go the least expensive way and get what you list below, no
EFIS and buy one or two of the gyros as electric and remaining vacuum.
Less than $1 per flight hour to budget vacuum pump replacement every 500
hours. You pays your money and makes your choices. Just don't represent
EFIS from anyone as same cost. It isn't.
Paul Besing wrote:
> "to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
>
> You do not need separate systems for IFR.
>
> Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator,
> DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
>
> Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move
> on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of
> instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no
> sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS.
> Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE expensive
> for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due to very mild
> aerobatics)
>
> Paul Besing
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
> *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>
> Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
> stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro.
> Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and
> essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR.
> Always easy to spend other's money. ;-)
>
> Ralph Finch wrote:
>> Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
>>
>> Ralph Finch
>> Davis, CA
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>> *Knicholas2@aol.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
>> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>>
>> I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300
>> hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had
>> better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Kim Nicholas
>> RV9A
>> Auburn, WA
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> *
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | hybrid autopilot |
Hey Folks:
I just installed a pitch axis only Dynon autopilot to compliment my Trutrak
roll axis only pictoral pilot.
When I was building trutrak was the only game in town and I prewired for a
trutrak pitch servo which I did to the point where the connectors with
proper pinouts were installed and tucked away for when I wanted to spend
1500-2000 to be lazy and let a machine hold altitude. The pictoral pilo
tdisplays a turn and bank completely independent from the EFIS and is part
of my redundancy scheme. In 330 hrs I became very used to flying on roll
axis autopilot with my hand on the manual trip knob to hold altitude and as
such I never saw fit to blow the cash.
Flash forward and dynon starts making noise about having an autopilot.
After a few conversations with them I find out that I'll have to blow more
than 1500 on 2 servos since theirs is different than the TT and I'll also
have to rethink my reduncancy scheme... Then I find out that you can just
install a pitch servo for only about $800. Adding fuel to the fire AIG
offers me a 10% discount for a "technically advanced aircraft" which with
my existing other equipment(moving map, IFR cert GPS, fuel totalizer,
terrain...) I would qualify for if I had a 2 axis autopilot... so in the
typical aviation fashion I saved $200 by spending $800.
The install was pretty easy, I was able to bridge both the control wheel
disconnects into the one existing switch with no adverse effects. One long
button press engages roll and pitch, slighty shorter and you get roll only,
short disengages both. Since I was leveraging off my trutrak pre wire the
wire I used to the servo(DSAB included) was not twisted pair as they
reccomend but it still works fine. I took a short flight this afternoon and
it seems to work fine but I'll need to do some cross country to really get a
feel for it. I've see some posts on Vans Airforce complaing of an install
that oscillates in pitch with growing excursion magnitudes. If this is the
case they should be able to fix it with a firmware upgrade.
Bill Judge
N84WJ
330 Hrs.
rv-8.blogspot.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Yes, you can choose to operate without independent systems in an
> experimental aircraft. It is your hide and your unsuspecting
> passengers. It is illegal in certificated aircraft, for very good
> reasons. See Part 23.1309. Most builders aspire to build aircraft
> safer than certified spam cans.
Ok, I'm a little bit dense, but I read that subsection and cannot find
anywhere that it says you need *redundant* systems. About the only
thing in a part 23 aircraft that's normally redundant is a radio, and
sometimes a VOR, neither which are required for flight. As for IFR,
you're only required (after all the normal stuff) to have equipment
compatible with the approach at the destination. So, I guess you have
two transponders? Two *Certified* GPS's ...... ?
Linn
do not archive.
> A Dynon is not truly independent, as it depends on the electrical
> buss. It's backup battery may or may not be satisfactory. Electrical
> failures occur at least as often as vacuum failures.
I'd love to see the data for that one. I'm only a blip in the data
field, but I've never had an electrical failure .... in flight .... but
have had three vacuum pump failures ..... but I do fly a lot.
> If an EFIS fails and you don't have some steam gauges, you have no
> backup, so you are going to need at least an attitude gyro and
> airspeed and altimeter anyway. So the cost comparison is really vacuum
> pump and accessories and attitude gyro, vs a second, totally
> independent separately powered EFIS.
Two EFIS installations with separate backup battery is still cheaper
than one EFIS and steam guages. Or you're a poor shopper. Or you're
buying some cheap steam guages. Like you say belowY, "you pays your
money and makes your choices" or "takes your chances" as the saying
really is. Almost all failures of electrical accessories occur early on
(infant failures) or very late .... long after their 'useful life' where
they're superseded by more modern equipment. No data, just a long-time
working participant in the industry. For what it's worth.
> Or you can go the least expensive way and get what you list below, no
> EFIS and buy one or two of the gyros as electric and remaining vacuum.
> Less than $1 per flight hour to budget vacuum pump replacement every
> 500 hours. You pays your money and makes your choices. Just don't
> represent EFIS from anyone as same cost. It isn't.
Let's just agree to disagree. You have an opinion .... and you probably
know what they say about them! ;-)
I just haven't seen anything to justify your (in my mind) rather
arrogant position.
Linn
do not archive
>
> Paul Besing wrote:
>> "to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
>>
>> You do not need separate systems for IFR.
>>
>> Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator,
>> DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
>>
>> Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move
>> on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of
>> instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no
>> sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS.
>> Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE
>> expensive for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due
>> to very mild aerobatics)
>>
>> Paul Besing
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
>> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>>
>> Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
>> stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600
>> gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and
>> essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR.
>> Always easy to spend other's money. ;-)
>>
>> Ralph Finch wrote:
>>> Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
>>>
>>> Ralph Finch
>>> Davis, CA
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Knicholas2@aol.com
>>> *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
>>> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>>>
>>> I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300
>>> hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had
>>> better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Kim Nicholas
>>> RV9A
>>> Auburn, WA
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> *
> *
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour freight airplanes
with things breaking all the time, I've never once had a total electrical failure..and
trust me..the garbage I was flying, if any rats nest like was in the
airplanes I flew will work, a properly crafted experimental electrical system
will not fail. Build it right, and it will last indefinitely. Alternator failure,
ok, but the chances in IMC, and having to stay IMC longer than an hour
for the battery backup, then you shouldn't be flying anyway. RV's are fine for
flying light IMC, but if there is no VFR within an hour or two in an RV, there
is some SERIOUS weather in your area. Declare emergency, get the nearest
approach, and done. Again, the chances are so slim, I would have no problem in
trusting a dynon with a backup battery.
Second, have a trio autopilot, coupled to a panel mounted handheld, and you will
have all the IFR capability you need in an emergency. I've tested this. Flew
an ILS approach, on autopilot, with no attitude indicator, in IMC. Just kicked
off the autopilot when I was out of the clouds.
My small panel RV-4 has plenty of reduntantcy. Vacuum gyros go, I still have autopilot
coupled to Garmin 396, and an electric turn coordinator. Build the electrical
system right, and you have no issues if your EFIS fails. But again,
how many Dynon or similar EFIS just quits working? Short of an electrical problem
that fries the thing, I really doubt one will just quick working on it's
own without poor wiring being the culprit.
If I were to keep my airplane for a long time (it's for sale now), I would put
in a dynon, and fly IFR all day without any concerns.
YMMV.
Paul Besing
________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Yes, you can choose to operate without independent systems in an
experimental aircraft. It is your hide and your unsuspecting
passengers. It is illegal in certificated aircraft, for very good
reasons. See Part 23.1309. Most builders aspire to build aircraft
safer than certified spam cans.
A Dynon is not truly independent, as it depends on the electrical buss.
It's backup battery may or may not be satisfactory. Electrical failures
occur at least as often as vacuum failures.
If an EFIS fails and you don't have some steam gauges, you have no
backup, so you are going to need at least an attitude gyro and airspeed
and altimeter anyway. So the cost comparison is really vacuum pump and
accessories and attitude gyro, vs a second, totally independent
separately powered EFIS.
Or you can go the least expensive way and get what you list below, no
EFIS and buy one or two of the gyros as electric and remaining vacuum.
Less than $1 per flight hour to budget vacuum pump replacement every
500 hours. You pays your money and makes your choices. Just don't
represent EFIS from anyone as same cost. It isn't.
Paul Besing wrote:
"to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
You do not need separate systems for IFR.
Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator,
DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move
on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of
instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no
sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS.
Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE expensive
for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due to very mild
aerobatics)
Paul Besing
________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Saturday,
December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List:
Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro.
Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential
bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy
to spend other's money.;-)
Ralph Finch wrote:
Dump
the
pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph
Finch
Davis,
CA
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Knicholas2@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in
300
hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had better
luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
Thanks!
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little component
to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you are on the
gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without risk of
additional fire. Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just
don't lead others blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many
electrical failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to
totally rely on electrics. A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right
now to replace most of their circuit breakers that on rare occasion leak
smoke. So there goes your "will not fail" argument.
KM
A&P/IA
Paul Besing wrote:
> In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour freight
> airplanes with things breaking all the time, I've never once had a
> total electrical failure..and trust me..the garbage I was flying, if
> any rats nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work, a properly
> crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
> *
> *======
> *
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little component
> to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you are on the
> gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without risk of
> additional fire.
Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing you lose is
that little box.
> Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just don't lead others
> blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many electrical
> failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to totally
> rely on electrics.
You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the feeling you don't
know squat about "electrics".
> A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right now to replace most of
> their circuit breakers that on rare occasion leak smoke. So there goes
> your "will not fail" argument.
Nobody said 'nothing will fail' ..... what they did say is that they
have an 'alternate' to go to if a failure occurs. It's unfortunate, but
the one component in the airplane that seems to fail more often than any
other ...... is the pilot. I think there's more to the Beech AD than
meets the eye ..... not knowing for sure, but I have the feeling there's
a design problem in the breaker, and that Beech fed all the radios from
one breaker. Older airplanes did that. If it was only a rare occasion,
I don't think there would be an AD otherwise.
Linn
pilot & airplane builder
do not archive
> KM
> A&P/IA
> Paul Besing wrote:
>> In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour
>> freight airplanes with things breaking all the time, I've never once
>> had a total electrical failure..and trust me..the garbage I was
>> flying, if any rats nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work,
>> a properly crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
>> *
>> *======
>> *
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Which is a good vacuum pump? |
While the electrical system might have some issues, the real issue with low
cost EFIS systems are software bugs. Redunancy can save your life.
As told by,
--> <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen
in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation
set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the
immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way.
Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to
the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by
GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway
in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen
had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up
and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many
unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes
every time.
Mike
-
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little component
> to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you are on the
> gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without risk of
> additional fire.
Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing you lose is
that little box.
> Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just don't lead others
> blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many electrical
> failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to totally
> rely on electrics.
You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the feeling you don't
know squat about "electrics".
> A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right now to replace most of
> their circuit breakers that on rare occasion leak smoke. So there goes
> your "will not fail" argument.
Nobody said 'nothing will fail' ..... what they did say is that they
have an 'alternate' to go to if a failure occurs. It's unfortunate, but
the one component in the airplane that seems to fail more often than any
other ...... is the pilot. I think there's more to the Beech AD than
meets the eye ..... not knowing for sure, but I have the feeling there's
a design problem in the breaker, and that Beech fed all the radios from
one breaker. Older airplanes did that. If it was only a rare occasion,
I don't think there would be an AD otherwise.
Linn
pilot & airplane builder
do not archive
> KM
> A&P/IA
> Paul Besing wrote:
>> In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour
>> freight airplanes with things breaking all the time, I've never once
>> had a total electrical failure..and trust me..the garbage I was
>> flying, if any rats nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work,
>> a properly crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
>> *
>> *======
>> *
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
when we have to talk about system failures, the people to ask it those failure
are those that maintain them. When i hear the statements," i have 2000 hours of
time." it reminds me that if he had 4000 more he might be ready to test for
his a+p. and with 6000 more he might be ready to try for an i/a.
while most aircraft owners will psy 90$ an hour to their car mechanic, they
for some resome want to pay 40$ per hour for their airplane.
most on this list have spent in excess of 1000 hr's building their aircraft. YET
they have no experience maintaining those aircraft.
i love working on aircraft that can be maintained from the local napa shop. but
the pros will keep you alive.listen to them. when they tell you stop .DO IT.
RICK
--- On Sun, 12/14/08, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 9:19 PM
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
> Kelly McMullen wrote:
> <kellym@aviating.com>
> >
> > It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is
> one little component to let out some electrical smoke in the
> cockpit while you are on the gauges and you will be faced
> with no electrics without risk of additional fire.
> Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing
> you lose is that little box.
> > Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just
> don't lead others blindly down the same risky path.
> I've seen too many electrical failures in 30+ years of
> flying and wrenching on planes to totally rely on electrics.
> You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the
> feeling you don't know squat about
> "electrics".
> > A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right now to
> replace most of their circuit breakers that on rare occasion
> leak smoke. So there goes your "will not fail"
> argument.
> Nobody said 'nothing will fail' ..... what they did
> say is that they have an 'alternate' to go to if a
> failure occurs. It's unfortunate, but the one component
> in the airplane that seems to fail more often than any other
> ...... is the pilot. I think there's more to the Beech
> AD than meets the eye ..... not knowing for sure, but I have
> the feeling there's a design problem in the breaker, and
> that Beech fed all the radios from one breaker. Older
> airplanes did that. If it was only a rare occasion, I
> don't think there would be an AD otherwise.
> Linn
> pilot & airplane builder
> do not archive
> > KM
> > A&P/IA
> > Paul Besing wrote:
> >> In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying
> 20,000 hour freight airplanes with things breaking all the
> time, I've never once had a total electrical
> failure..and trust me..the garbage I was flying, if any rats
> nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work, a properly
> crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
> >> *
> >> *======
> >> *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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