Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:04 AM - Re: MGL EFIS Question (Trevor)
2. 01:48 PM - Re: Oil Door hinges (Emrath)
3. 04:40 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/20/09 (realily@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: MGL EFIS Question |
I have fitted two MGL Voyager units to my RV-7 and although my RV is
still a month or two away from it's first flight, I am very impressed
with the display, what it has to offer and the simplicity of
installation. I was on the verge of purchasing the Advanced which I
thought was a pretty good system although a bit pricey.
Cannot give you a more detailed evaluation at this stage but if you are
not in too great a hurry I know of quite a few RV's being equiped with
the Voyager or Odyssey at this time so some practical experiences should
be forthcoming.
Trevor
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Simmons
To: RV-List@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: MGL EFIS Question
Anybody out there in RV land use the MGL colored EFIS?
Tell me about you experiences.
Do not archive
Thanks,
Rich
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Door hinges |
Todd, your the winner! Marty
Time: 03:10:10 PM PST US
From: Todd & Kristen Neidinger <tsneidin@wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Oil Door hinges
I was just shopping for these - I'll take them if you still have them.
Todd Neidinger
rv-9
Emrath wrote:
>
> Folks,
> In cleaning up my bench, I find I have two McMaster-Carr "Weldable
Concealed
> Hinges" part number 110205A35 I had intended to use for my oil door. They
> are yours for the freight to send them to you. They each have two rivet
> holes already drilled in each side of the hinge.
>
> Marty in Brentwood TN
>
>
Marty
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/20/09 |
I wish to advise you of my new E mail address. Please change from realily@aol.com?
to ; real.dupuis@yahoo.com
thank you
Real Dupuis
5642 jean drive
Orlando fl. 32822
-----Original Message-----
From: RV-List Digest Server <rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 2:58 am
Subject: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/20/09
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
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HTML Version:
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RV-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 02/20/09: 14
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:19 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (glen matejcek)
2. 09:03 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Mike Robertson)
3. 09:45 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael)
4. 09:49 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael)
5. 11:57 AM - MGL EFIS Question (Rich Simmons)
6. 12:05 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Sam Buchanan)
7. 01:33 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Tim Bryan)
8. 02:55 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Sam Buchanan)
9. 03:34 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Bill Bergner)
10. 04:40 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Mike Robertson)
11. 04:42 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Mike Robertson)
12. 10:05 PM - Re: Sample m
aintenance log entry (Michael)
13. 10:33 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael)
14. 10:33 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 06:19:07 AM PST US
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Subject: RV-List: RE: Sample maintenance log entry
Hi Mike-
>Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness
>certificate not just ANYONE can do the work.
This is a common misunderstanding. For starters, part 43 has an appendix
that specifically delineates what mx a pilot may perform and sign off.
Beyond that, one of the avenues to earning an A&P is hands on experience.
Obviously, work is being performed by non-rated individuals. The key is
that the work is certified and signed off by a properly rated individual.
Likewise, very many museum aircraft are maintained by unrated volunteers,
but their work is inspected and signed off the right folks. It happens
every day-
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 09:03:22 AM PST US
From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. A
S was stated=2C the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to e
xperimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the ai
rcraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly con
dition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then
complete it with name=2C signature=2C certificate type=2C and number in ac
cordance with FAR 43.11.
What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart
about maintenance (sorry=2C but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on
the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first par
agraph of the operating limitations that says something
along the lines tha
t the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating rules
of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that i
t does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have
the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certifie
d person/agency. Now=2C if you have more current operating limitations it
will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments
that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW th
e night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted
to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different.
As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircra
ft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43=2C t
hat possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I woul
d need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But=2C if this is true th
en it can be changed.
As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this.
If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the ai
rcraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The
latest versions states that you may make the major change=2C make a logbook
entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum
of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the cha
nge and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may p
lace more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time=2C but they do NOT need to look
at the aircraft again nor re-certify it.
Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 3
9 that ADs cover all aircraft and products=2C so "yes" ADs do apply to expe
rimentals=2C BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washingto
n DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So
amateur-builts=2C even if a typed certificated engine is installed=2C
do n
ot have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA wo
n't do anything if you overfly an AD=2C your insurance company may not cove
r you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check
with you agent to find out.
Last thing. If you have older=2C or unclear Operating Limitations=2C you c
an apply to the local FSDO=2C and now=2C some DARs=2C to issue new Operatin
g Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations.
I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few thing
s. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly
..
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
At last count 3 RVs built and still counting
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Well=2C guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says =93This aircr
aft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14=2C c
ode of federal regulations=2C Part 43.=94 So much for part 43 not applying
to me=85=85. Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations?
I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitati
ons were cut. Any thoughts?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Michael=2C Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE=2C even a three year o
ld child=2C can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing
requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major cha
nges=2C as you point out=2C do require a return to phase 1 operation in acc
ordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would requi
re prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after
satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation.
As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your pla
n
e=2C say a propeller or a starter=2C etc=2C then the ADs do apply. Oher tha
n that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft=2C
ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above.
A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority reg
arding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again=2C your 3-year kid ca
n do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor.
But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comp
ly with your operating limitations=2C and make the required log book entrie
s=2C if any.
Message -----
From: Michael
Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Ok=2C my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certi
ficate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated pers
on signing the work=2C builder with his repairman certificate=2C A&P or pre
ventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental
only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops s
pecs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to:
"condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we
can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small it
ems are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change i
n FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircr
aft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds
like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testam
ent.
As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says:
If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro
peller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfactorily
=2C the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by
the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r
eturn to service only for the work performed.
There
you have it.
Mike
RV7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Thanks Mike=2C
I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer.
So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals
) I can sign it off as 'builder'.
Ralph
4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs.....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 11:43 AM
>To: rv list <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
>You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenan
ce=2C or major alteration=2C and sign off the logbook in accordance with th
e logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition=2C if it is a major
alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating
limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the year
ly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again=2C this is stated the the a
ircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop m
e a line.
>
>
>
>Mike Robertson
>
>Das Fed
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500
>> From: recapen@earthlink.net
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>>
>>
>> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and bein
g the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.
>>
>> Time for more research....
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Michael <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
>> >Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 10:34 AM
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
>> >Well=2C this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do
not
>> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond
>> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to
help you out.
All
>> >you need in a logbook entry is date=2C aircraft/engine/appliance time
=2C
>> >description of work performed=2C signature and certificate type. If it
is a
>> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies.
>> >
>> >Here is the FAR:
>> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) an
d (c)
>> >of this section=2C each person who maintains=2C performs preventive mai
ntenance=2C
>> >rebuilds=2C or alters an aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro
peller=2C
>> >appliance=2C or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance r
ecord
>> >of that equipment containing the following information:
>> >
>> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator
) of
>> >work performed.
>> >
>> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
>> >
>> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person
>> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
>> >
>> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engin
e=2C
>> >propeller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfac
torily=2C
>> >the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by
the
>> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r
eturn
>> >to service only for the work performed.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >How you format this info is up to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >RV7 550Hrs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >To: "rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> >Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 6:39 AM
>> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
t>
>> >>
>> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly)=2C I would like to put an
entry
>> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow
>> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format?
>> >>
>> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column=2C "aircraft time in ser
vice"
>> >> column=2C "descriptio
n of work performed" column=2C and "agency&certi
ficate
>> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of:
>> >>
>> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with
>> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder.
>> >>
>> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks=2C
>> >> Ralph
>> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>==========
>==========
>==========
>==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or o
n the go.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma
tronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron
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________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 09:45:05 AM PST US
From: "Michael" <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Mike,
You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local
FSDO
is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they
had no
time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I
don't
know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so
ops
limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked
to
the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said
they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to
handle
the case. So
I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks
thank
you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't
affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600
bucks
again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft
to a
different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are
operating
out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation
wide
thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying.
AS
was stated, the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to
experimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is
the
aircraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the
yearly
condition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy
and
then complete it with name, signature, certificate type, and number in
accordance with FAR 43.11.
What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the
subpart
about maintenance (sorry, but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on
the
road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first
paragraph of the operating limitations that says something along the
lines
that the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating
rules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205)
states
that it does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why
we
have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a
certified person/agency. Now, if you have more current operating
limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance
of
any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that
"unless
equipped IAW
the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the
aircraft
is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different.
As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the
aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of
part
43, that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in.
I
would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But, if this is
true
then it can be changed.
As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover
this.
If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the
aircraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first.
The
latest versions states that you may make the major change, make a
logbook
entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a
minimum
of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the
change and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also
may
place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time, but they do NOT need to
look at
the aircraft again nor re-certify it.
Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in
FAR 39
that ADs cover all aircraft and products, so "yes" ADs do apply to
experimentals, BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in
Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built
aircraft. So amateur-builts, even if a typed certificated engine is
installed, do not have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though.
While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD, your insurance
company
may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with
an
AD. Check with you agent to find out.
Last thing. If you have older, or unclear Operating Limitations, you
can
apply to the local FSDO, and now, some DARs, to issue new Operating
Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations.
I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few
things. If you have any specific questions
feel free to drop me a line
directly.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
At last count 3 RVs built and still counting
_____
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says "This
aircraft
MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14, code
of
federal regulations, Part 43." So much for part 43 not applying to me...
Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations? I new my
understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitations
were
cut. Any thoughts?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Michael, Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE, even a three year
old
child, can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing
requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major
changes, as you point out, do require a return to phase 1 operation in
accordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would
require prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book
entry
after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1
operation.
As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your
plane, say a propeller or a starter, etc, then the ADs do apply. Oher
than
that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft,
ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above.
A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority
regarding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again, your 3-year
kid
can do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor.
But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only
comply with your operating limitations, and make the required log book
entries, if any.
Message -----
From: Michael <mailto:g4mech@sbcgl
obal.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness
certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a
certificated
person signing the work, builder with his repairman certificate, A&P or
preventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover.
Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than
that your ops specs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane
with
exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a
misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that
is
not the case. Small items are logbook entries only but anything that
constitutes a major change in FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR
91.319(b) which puts the aircraft back into phase 1 flight testing. If
anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part
135/145) you should see a similar testament.
As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says:
If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller,
appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the
signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the
person
approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to
service only for the work performed.
There you have it.
Mike
RV7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Thanks Mike,
I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer.
So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for
annuals)
I can sign it off as 'builder'.
Ralph
4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs.....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 17, 2009 11:43 AM
>To: rv list
<rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
>You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the
maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance
with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition, if it is
a
major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's
operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to
conduct
the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again, this is stated
the
the aircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific
questions
drop me a line.
>
>
>
>Mike Robertson
>
>Das Fed
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500
>> From: recapen@earthlink.net
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>>
<recapen@earthlink.net>
>>
>> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and
being
the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.
>>
>> Time for more research....
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Michael <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
>> >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 10:34 AM
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do
not
>> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond
>> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you
out.
All
>> >you need in a logbook entry is date, aircraft/engine/appliance time,
>> >description of work performed, signature and certificate type. If it
is
a
>> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies.
>> >
>> >Here is the FAR:
>> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b)
and
(c)
>> >of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive
maintenance,
>> >rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller,
>> >appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance
record
>> >of that equipment containing the following information:
>> >
>> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator)
of
>> >work performed.
>> >
>> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
>> >
>> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the
person
>> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
>> >
>> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft
engine,
>> >propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed
satisfactorily,
>> >the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by
the
>> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval
for
return
>> >to service only for the work performed.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >How you format this info is up to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >RV7 550Hrs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >To: "rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 AM
>> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
<recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >>
>> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly), I would like to put an
entry
>> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel
flow
>> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format?
>> >>
>> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column, "aircraft time in
service"
>> >> column, "description of work performed" column, and
"agency&certificate
>> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of:
>> >>
>> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance
with
>> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder.
>> >>
>> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Ralph
>> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>==========
>=
========
>==========
>==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on
the
go.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
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ronics.com
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_____
Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. See how it works.
<http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitwork
s_022
009>
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 09:49:20 AM PST US
From: "Michael" <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Mike,
You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local
FSDO
is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they
had no
time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I
don't
know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so
ops
limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked
to
the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said
they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to
handle
the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks
thank
you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't
affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600
bucks
again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft
to a
different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are
operating
out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation
wide
thing? Thank you for your know
ledge and helping with the issue at hand.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying.
AS
was stated, the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to
experimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is
the
aircraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the
yearly
condition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy
and
then complete it with name, signature, certificate type, and number in
accordance with FAR 43.11.
What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the
subpart
about maintenance (sorry, but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on
the
road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first
paragraph of the operating limitations that says something along the
lines
that the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating
rules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205)
states
that it does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why
we
have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a
certified person/agency. Now, if you have more current operating
limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance
of
any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that
"unless
equipped IAW the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the
aircraft
is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different.
As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the
aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of
part
43, that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in.
I
would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But, if this is
true
then it can be changed.
As far
as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover
this.
If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the
aircraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first.
The
latest versions states that you may make the major change, make a
logbook
entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a
minimum
of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the
change and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also
may
place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time, but they do NOT need to
look at
the aircraft again nor re-certify it.
Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in
FAR 39
that ADs cover all aircraft and products, so "yes" ADs do apply to
experimentals, BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in
Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built
aircraft. So amateur-builts, even if a typed certificated engine is
installed, do not have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though.
While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD, your insurance
company
may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with
an
AD. Check with you agent to find out.
Last thing. If you have older, or unclear Operating Limitations, you
can
apply to the local FSDO, and now, some DARs, to issue new Operating
Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations.
I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few
things. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line
directly.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
At last count 3 RVs built and still counting
_____
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says "This
aircraft
MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14, code
of
federal regulations, Part 43." So much for part 43 not applying to me...
Does any one else have this statement in ther
e op limitations? I new my
understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitations
were
cut. Any thoughts?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Michael, Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE, even a three year
old
child, can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing
requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major
changes, as you point out, do require a return to phase 1 operation in
accordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would
require prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book
entry
after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1
operation.
As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your
plane, say a propeller or a starter, etc, then the ADs do apply. Oher
than
that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft,
ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above.
A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority
regarding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again, your 3-year
kid
can do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor.
But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only
comply with your operating limitations, and make the required log book
entries, if any.
Message -----
From: Michael <mailto:g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness
certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a
certificated
person signing the work, builder with his repairman certificate, A&P or
preventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover.
Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than
that
your ops specs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane
with
exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a
misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that
is
not the case. Small items are logbook entries only but anything that
constitutes a major change in FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR
91.319(b) which puts the aircraft back into phase 1 flight testing. If
anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part
135/145) you should see a similar testament.
As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says:
If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller,
appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the
signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the
person
approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to
service only for the work performed.
There you have it.
Mike
RV7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Thanks Mike,
I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer.
So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for
annuals)
I can sign it off as 'builder'.
Ralph
4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs.....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 17, 2009 11:43 AM
>To: rv list <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
>You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the
maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance
with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition, if it is
a
major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's
operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to
conduct
the yearly condition in
psection and sign it off. Again, this is stated
the
the aircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific
questions
drop me a line.
>
>
>
>Mike Robertson
>
>Das Fed
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500
>> From: recapen@earthlink.net
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>>
<recapen@earthlink.net>
>>
>> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and
being
the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.
>>
>> Time for more research....
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Michael <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
>> >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 10:34 AM
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do
not
>> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond
>> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you
out.
All
>> >you need in a logbook entry is date, aircraft/engine/appliance time,
>> >description of work performed, signature and certificate type. If it
is
a
>> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies.
>> >
>> >Here is the FAR:
>> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b)
and
(c)
>> >of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive
maintenance,
>> >rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller,
>> >appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance
record
>> >of that equipment containing the following information:
>> >
>> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator)
of
>> >work performed.
>> >
>> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
>> >
>> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the
person
>> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
>> >
>> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft
engine,
>> >propeller, appl
iance, or component part has been performed
satisfactorily,
>> >the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by
the
>> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval
for
return
>> >to service only for the work performed.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >How you format this info is up to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >RV7 550Hrs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >To: "rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 AM
>> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
<recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >>
>> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly), I would like to put an
entry
>> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel
flow
>> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format?
>> >>
>> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column, "aircraft time in
service"
>> >> column, "description of work performed" column, and
"agency&certificate
>> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of:
>> >>
>> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance
with
>> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder.
>> >>
>> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Ralph
>> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>==========
>==========
>==========
>==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on
the
go.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigat
or?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. See how it works.
<http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitwork
s_022
009>
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 11:57:05 AM PST US
From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net>
Subject: RV-List: MGL EFIS Question
Anybody out there in RV land use the MGL colored EFIS?
Tell me about you experiences.
Do not archive
Thanks,
Rich
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 12:05:37 PM PST US
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Michael wrote:
> Mike,
>
>
>
> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO
> is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no
> time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don't
> know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops
> limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to
> the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said
> they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle
> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank
> you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't
> affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks
> again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft to a
> different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating
> out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide
> thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
>
Michael,
Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating
limitations
is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to FAR
43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I
suspect violates the template of experimental certification as
recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with
limited experimental experience got their hands on your op lims. :-)
This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and
also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your
plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting
to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do
all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception.
Best regards,
Sam Buchanan
http://thervjournal.com
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 01:33:19 PM PST US
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
In addition I think 600 bucks for those changes is pretty absurd. I didn't
pay half that to get my dar to inspect my plane and issue them in the first
place. Sounds like they need some new blood in that area. Where are you
Michael?
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TBover 120 hours now
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:04 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
> Michael wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> >
> >
> > You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my
> local FSDO
> > is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they
> had no
> > time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I
> don't
> > know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft
> so ops
> > limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I
> talked to
> > the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me?
He
> said
> > they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to
> handle
> > the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600
> bucks thank
> > you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it
> doesn't
> > affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600
> bucks
> > again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the
> aircraft to a
> > different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are
> operating
> > out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation
> wide
> > thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at
> hand.
> >
>
> Michael,
>
> Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating limitations
> is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to
> FAR
> 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I
> suspect violates the template of experimental certification as
> recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with
> limited experimental experience got their hands on your op lims. :-)
>
> This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and
> also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your
> plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting
> to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do
> all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sam Buchanan
> http://thervjournal.com
>
>
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 02:55:41 PM PST US
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my
>> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local
>> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old
>> tail number on them. I don't know wh
y the FAA doesn't just put the
>> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be
>> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in
>> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were
>> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle
>> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600
>> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement
>> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I
>> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't
>> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region
>> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there
>> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing?
>> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
>>
>
> Michael,
>
> Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating
> limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental
> being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national
> practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental
> certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous
> FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on
> your op lims. :-)
>
> This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes
> and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of
> your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs
> wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can
> legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare
> exception.
>
To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating
limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must
meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type
certificate are you supposed to comply?
Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts......
;-)
If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards
folks of the EAA
involved and get those op lims fixed.
Sam Buchanan
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
Time: 03:34:34 PM PST US
From: "Bill Bergner" <bill@bergner.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
The Allentown FSDO did the paperwork for me for free 2 years ago and they
were very accommodating and pleasant to work with. I don't know if their
policy is different now.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my
>> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local
>> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old
>> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the
>> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be
>> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in
>> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were
>> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle
>> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600
>> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement
>> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I
>> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't
>> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region
>> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there
>> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing?
>> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
>>
>
> Michael,
>
> Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating
> limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental
> being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a
national
> practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental
> certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous
> FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on
> your op lims. :-)
>
> This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes
> and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of
> your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs
> wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can
> legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare
> exception.
>
To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating
limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must
meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type
certificate are you supposed to comply?
Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts......
;-)
If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA
involved and get those op lims fixed.
Sam Buchanan
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
Time: 04:40:11 PM PST US
From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
It is your local FSDO being a pain. There is absolutely no legal requireme
nt to inform the local FSDO if you move.
Also=2C if you do not like the way you are being treated by your local FSDO
you have the right to call their next higher up manager and file a complai
nt. That is called invoking the customer service initiative. Reissuing op
erating limitations and a new airworthiness certificate takes about 20 minu
tes. If you don't want to hassle with your local FSDO you can go to anothe
r FSDO like Van Nuys or Riverside.
Mike R.
Das Fed
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Mike=2C
You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits=3B my local F
SDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the loc
al FSDO said they h
ad no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I
don=92t know why the FAA doesn=92t just put the serial number of the aircra
ft so ops limits don=92t have to be changed for a simple N number change. I
talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn=92t accommodate me
? He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man powe
r to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 60
0 bucks thank you very much. I don=92t want to change my 43 statement becau
se it doesn=92t affect me=2C I am a mechanic for a living and I don=92t wan
t to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don=92t realize too if you
move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them t
hat you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or
is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with t
he issue at hand.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson
Sent: Friday=2C February 20=2C 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. A
S was stated=2C the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to e
xperimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the ai
rcraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly con
dition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then
complete it with name=2C signature=2C certificate type=2C and number in ac
cordance with FAR 43.11.
What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart
about maintenance (sorry=2C but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on
the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first par
agraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines tha
t the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating r
ules
of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that i
t does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have
the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certifie
d person/agency. Now=2C if you have more current operating limitations it
will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments
that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW th
e night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted
to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different.
As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircra
ft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43=2C t
hat possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I woul
d need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But=2C if this is true th
en it can be changed.
As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this.
If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the ai
rcraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The
latest versions states that you may make the major change=2C make a logbook
entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum
of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the cha
nge and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may p
lace more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time=2C but they do NOT need to look
at the aircraft again nor re-certify it.
Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 3
9 that ADs cover all aircraft and products=2C so "yes" ADs do apply to expe
rimentals=2C BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washingto
n DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So
amateur-builts=2C even if a typed certificated engine is installed=2C do n
ot have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA wo
n't do anythin
g if you overfly an AD=2C your insurance company may not cove
r you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check
with you agent to find out.
Last thing. If you have older=2C or unclear Operating Limitations=2C you c
an apply to the local FSDO=2C and now=2C some DARs=2C to issue new Operatin
g Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations.
I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few thing
s. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly
..
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
At last count 3 RVs built and still counting
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Well=2C guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says =93This aircr
aft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14=2C c
ode of federal regulations=2C Part 43.=94 So much for part 43 not applying
to me=85=85. Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations?
I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitati
ons were cut. Any thoughts?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Michael=2C Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE=2C even a three year o
ld child=2C can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing
requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major cha
nges=2C as you point out=2C do require a return to phase 1 operation in acc
ordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would requi
re prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after
satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation.
As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your plan
e=2C say a propeller or a starter=2C etc=2C then the ADs do apply. Oher tha
n that unless the AD i
s specifically aimed at you exact aircraft=2C
ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above.
A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority reg
arding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again=2C your 3-year kid ca
n do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor.
But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comp
ly with your operating limitations=2C and make the required log book entrie
s=2C if any.
Message -----
From: Michael
Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Ok=2C my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certi
ficate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated pers
on signing the work=2C builder with his repairman certificate=2C A&P or pre
ventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental
only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops s
pecs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to:
"condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we
can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small it
ems are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change i
n FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircr
aft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds
like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testam
ent.
As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says:
If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro
peller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfactorily
=2C the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by
the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r
eturn to service only for the work performed.
There you have it.
Mike
RV7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailt
o:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Thanks Mike=2C
I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer.
So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals
) I can sign it off as 'builder'.
Ralph
4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs.....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 11:43 AM
>To: rv list <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
>You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenan
ce=2C or major alteration=2C and sign off the logbook in accordance with th
e logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition=2C if it is a major
alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating
limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the year
ly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again=2C this is stated the the a
ircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop m
e a line.
>
>
>
>Mike Robertson
>
>Das Fed
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500
>> From: recapen@earthlink.net
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>>
>>
>> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and bein
g the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.
>>
>> Time for more research....
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Michael <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
>> >Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 10:34 AM
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
>> >Well=2C this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do
not
>> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond
>> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you out.
All
>> >you need in a logbook entry is date=2C aircraft/engine/appliance time
=2C
>> >description of work performed=2C signature and certificate type. If it
is a
>> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies.
>> >
>> >Here is the FAR:
>> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) an
d (c)
>> >of this section=2C each person who maintains=2C performs preventive mai
ntenance=2C
>> >rebuilds=2C or alters an aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro
peller=2C
>> >appliance=2C or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance r
ecord
>> >of that equipment containing the following information:
>> >
>> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator
) of
>> >work performed.
>> >
>> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
>> >
>> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person
>> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
>> >
>> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engin
e=2C
>> >propeller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfac
torily=2C
>> >the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by
the
>> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r
eturn
>> >to service only for the work performed.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >How you format this info is up to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >RV7 550Hrs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >To: "rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> >Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 6:39 AM
>> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
t>
>> >>
>> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly)=2C I would like to put an
entry
>> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow
>> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format?
>> >>
>> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column=2C "aircraft time in ser
vice"
>> >> column=2C "description of work performed" column=2C and "agency&certi
ficate
>> >> no. work performed/returned to servic
e" column.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of:
>> >>
>> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with
>> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder.
>> >>
>> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks=2C
>> >> Ralph
>> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>==========
>==========
>==========
>==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or o
n the go.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics
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________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
Time: 04:42:59 PM PST US
From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
The policy is up to the local FSDO managment and is supposed to be dictated
by man power availability.
Mike R.
> From: bill@bergner.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
> Date: Fri=2C 20 Feb 2009 18:29:23 -0500
>
>
> The Allentown FSDO did the paperwork for me for free 2 years ago and they
> were very accommodati
ng and pleasant to work with. I don't know if their
> policy is different now.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> Sent: Friday=2C February 20=2C 2009 5:54 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
> >
> > Michael wrote:
> >> Mike=2C
> >>
> >>
> >> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits=3B my
> >> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local
> >> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old
> >> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the
> >> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be
> >> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in
> >> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were
> >> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle
> >> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600
> >> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement
> >> because it doesn't affect me=2C I am a mechanic for a living and I
> >> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't
> >> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region
> >> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there
> >> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing?
> >> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
> >>
> >
> > Michael=2C
> >
> > Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating
> > limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental
> > being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national
> > practice=2C and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental
> > certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous
> > FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on
> > your op lims. :-)
> >
> >
This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes
> > and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of
> > your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs
> > wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can
> > legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare
> > exception.
> >
>
> To extend the thought=2C does the demand per your RV-7 operating
> limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must
> meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case=2C to what type
> certificate are you supposed to comply?
>
> Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts......
> =3B-)
>
> If this was my plane=2C I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA
> involved and get those op lims fixed.
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========
==========
==========
==========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
Time: 10:05:05 PM PST US
From: "Michael" <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Yea I hear ya but never fear I will NEVER sell my plane to anyone.......I
will live in it and sell my house first!!! Resale...naww I don't thing so
because the limits can be amended really for a nominal fee if one desire so.
If value is based on 600 dollar change..then I don't want to deal with a
buyer like that. Cheers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
> Michael wrote:
>> Mike, You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my
>> local FSDO
>> is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had
>> no
>> time to re cut my ops specs which hade
my old tail number on them. I
>> don't
>> know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so
>> ops
>> limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to
>> the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said
>> they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to
>> handle
>> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks
>> thank
>> you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't
>> affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks
>> again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft
>> to a
>> different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating
>> out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide
>> thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
>>
>
> Michael,
>
> Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating limitations is
> the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to FAR 43
> maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I
> suspect violates the template of experimental certification as recognized
> nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with limited
> experimental experience got their hands on your op lims. :-)
>
> This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and
> also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your
> plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting to
> purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do all the
> maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sam Buchanan
> http://thervjournal.com
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
Time: 10:33:46 PM PST US
From: "Michael" <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
I don't see how part 43 talks about approved parts
.. Why would I change the
op limits???? I am a full time aircraft mechanic, my ops limitations do not
hinder me in anyway. If you are a non A&P and want to " save money" by
owning an experimental then I could see ones point. My RV is just like
anyone else's, condition inspection and logical maintenance standards.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>
>> Michael wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>
>>> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local
>>> FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local
>>> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old
>>> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the
>>> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be
>>> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in
>>> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were
>>> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the
>>> case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600
>>> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement
>>> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I
>>> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't
>>> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region
>>> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there
>>> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing?
>>> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.
>>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating
>> limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental
>> being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national
>> practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental
>> certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous
>> FAA-types with limi
ted experimental experience got their hands on
>> your op lims. :-)
>>
>> This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes
>> and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of
>> your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs
>> wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can
>> legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare
>> exception.
>>
>
> To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating limitations
> for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must meet FAA-PMA
> and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type certificate are
> you supposed to comply?
>
> Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts......
> ;-)
>
> If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA
> involved and get those op lims fixed.
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________
Time: 10:33:46 PM PST US
From: "Michael" <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Thanks for the insight Mike, I knew they were just being a pain in the
ass.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Robertson
To: rv list
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
It is your local FSDO being a pain. There is absolutely no legal
requirement to inform the local FSDO if you move.
Also, if you do not like the way you are being treated by your local
FSDO you have the right to call their next higher up manager and file a
complaint. That is called invoking the customer service initiative.
Reissuing operating limitations and a new airworthiness certificate
takes about 20 minutes. If you don't want to hassle with your local
FSDO you can go to another FSDO like Van Nuys or Riverside.
Mike R.
Das Fed
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:41:43 -0800
Mike,
You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my
local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO
said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail
number on them. I don=92t know why the FAA doesn=92t just put the serial
number of the aircraft so ops limits don=92t have to be changed for a
simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why
they couldn=92t accommodate me? He said they were mandated to ignore my
issue due to not enough man power to handle the case. So I had to pay a
DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank you very much. I
don=92t want to change my 43 statement because it doesn=92t affect me, I
am a mechanic for a living and I don=92t want to pay 600 bucks again. I
am sure most people don=92t realize too if you move the aircraft to a
different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are
operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a
nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the
issue at hand.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 AM
To: rv list
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need
clarifiying. AS was stated, the first part of FAR 43 states that it
does not apply to experimental aircraft. What does guide us back to
parts of FAR 43 is the aircraft's operating limitations. That would be
the part about the yearly condition inspection log entry where it gives
you a statement to copy and then complete it with name, signature,
certificate type, and number in accordance with FAR 43.11.
What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the
subpart about maintenan
ce (sorry, but I don't have my FARs right here as
I am on the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the
(usually) first paragraph of the operating limitations that says
something along the lines that the aircraft will be operating in
accordance with all the operating rules of part 91. So...unless a
paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that it does not apply to
experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have the transponder
and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certified
person/agency. Now, if you have more current operating limitations it
will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any
instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless
equipped IAW the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the
aircraft is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something
different.
As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the
aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of
part 43, that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO
put in. I would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But, if
this is true then it can be changed.
As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover
this. If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not
operate the aircraft after making a major change without contacting the
FSDO first. The latest versions states that you may make the major
change, make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft
in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO
to let them know of the change and where you propose to conduct the test
flights. The fsdo also may place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time,
but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it.
Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in
FAR 39 that ADs cover all aircraft and products, so "yes" ADs do apply
to experimentals, BUT it has been dete
rmined by the FAA legal folks in
Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built
aircraft. So amateur-builts, even if a typed certificated engine is
installed, do not have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though.
While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD, your insurance
company may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to
comply with an AD. Check with you agent to find out.
Last thing. If you have older, or unclear Operating Limitations, you
can apply to the local FSDO, and now, some DARs, to issue new Operating
Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations.
I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few
things. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line
directly.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
At last count 3 RVs built and still counting
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:30:40 -0800
Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says =93This
aircraft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title
14, code of federal regulations, Part 43.=94 So much for part 43 not
applying to me=85=85. Does any one else have this statement in there op
limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the
Operation Limitations were cut. Any thoughts?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:42 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Michael, Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE, even a three year
old child, can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only
thing requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection.
Major cha
nges, as you point out, do require a return to phase 1
operation in accordance with your operating limitations. The older
restrictions would require prior approval but the newer ones just
require the log book entry after satisfactory operation for the
(typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation.
As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your
plane, say a propeller or a starter, etc, then the ADs do apply. Oher
than that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft,
ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above.
A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any
authority regarding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again, your
3-year kid can do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a
factor.
But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only
comply with your operating limitations, and make the required log book
entries, if any.
Message -----
From: Michael
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness
certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a
certificated person signing the work, builder with his repairman
certificate, A&P or preventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate
will cover. Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads
but other than that your ops specs will tell you to maintain like it was
a 91 airplane with exception to: "condition being used" instead of
annual. There is a misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to
our planes but that is not the case. Small items are logbook entries
only but anything that constitutes a major change in FAR 21.93 the owner
must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircraft back into phase
1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a
REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testament.
As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says:
If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed
satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of
certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature
constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work
performed.
There you have it.
Mike
RV7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:10 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
<recapen@earthlink.net>
Thanks Mike,
I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my
computer.
So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for
annuals) I can sign it off as 'builder'.
Ralph
4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs.....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 17, 2009 11:43 AM
>To: rv list <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>
>
>You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the
maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance
with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition, if it is
a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the
aircraft's operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is
needed to conduct the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off.
Again, this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations. If you
have any specific questions drop me a line.
>
>
>
>Mike Robertson
>
>Das Fed
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500
>> From: recapen@earthlink.net
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenan
ce log entry
>>
<recapen@earthlink.net>
>>
>> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual
and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.
>>
>> Time for more research....
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Michael <g4mech@sbcglobal.net>
>> >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 10:34 AM
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since
you do not
>> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable
(beyond
>> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help
you out. All
>> >you need in a logbook entry is date, aircraft/engine/appliance
time,
>> >description of work performed, signature and certificate type.
If it is a
>> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies.
>> >
>> >Here is the FAR:
>> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs
(b) and (c)
>> >of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive
maintenance,
>> >rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
propeller,
>> >appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the
maintenance record
>> >of that equipment containing the following information:
>> >
>> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator) of
>> >work performed.
>> >
>> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
>> >
>> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the
person
>> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
>> >
>> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft
engine,
>> >propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed
satisfactorily,
>> >the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held
by the
>> >person approving the work. The signatu
re constitutes the
approval for return
>> >to service only for the work performed.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >How you format this info is up to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >RV7 550Hrs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >To: "rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 AM
>> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry
>> >
>> >
<recapen@earthlink.net>
>> >>
>> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly), I would like to
put an entry
>> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my
fuel flow
>> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format?
>> >>
>> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column, "aircraft time
in service"
>> >> column, "description of work performed" column, and
"agency&certificate
>> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of:
>> >>
>> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance
with
>> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder.
>> >>
>> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this
airframe.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Ralph
>> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>==========
>==========
>==========
>==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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