---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/21/09: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:04 AM - Re: MGL EFIS Question (Trevor) 2. 01:48 PM - Re: Oil Door hinges (Emrath) 3. 04:40 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/20/09 (realily@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:08 AM PST US From: "Trevor" Subject: Re: RV-List: MGL EFIS Question I have fitted two MGL Voyager units to my RV-7 and although my RV is still a month or two away from it's first flight, I am very impressed with the display, what it has to offer and the simplicity of installation. I was on the verge of purchasing the Advanced which I thought was a pretty good system although a bit pricey. Cannot give you a more detailed evaluation at this stage but if you are not in too great a hurry I know of quite a few RV's being equiped with the Voyager or Odyssey at this time so some practical experiences should be forthcoming. Trevor ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: RV-List@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:54 PM Subject: RV-List: MGL EFIS Question Anybody out there in RV land use the MGL colored EFIS? Tell me about you experiences. Do not archive Thanks, Rich ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:10 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: Re: RV-List: Oil Door hinges Todd, your the winner! Marty Time: 03:10:10 PM PST US From: Todd & Kristen Neidinger Subject: Re: RV-List: Oil Door hinges I was just shopping for these - I'll take them if you still have them. Todd Neidinger rv-9 Emrath wrote: > > Folks, > In cleaning up my bench, I find I have two McMaster-Carr "Weldable Concealed > Hinges" part number 110205A35 I had intended to use for my oil door. They > are yours for the freight to send them to you. They each have two rivet > holes already drilled in each side of the hinge. > > Marty in Brentwood TN > > Marty ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:10 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/20/09 From: realily@aol.com I wish to advise you of my new E mail address. Please change from realily@aol.com? to ; real.dupuis@yahoo.com thank you Real Dupuis 5642 jean drive Orlando fl. 32822 -----Original Message----- From: RV-List Digest Server Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 2:58 am Subject: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/20/09 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 09-02-20&Archive=RV Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 09-02-20&Archive=RV =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/20/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:19 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (glen matejcek) 2. 09:03 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Mike Robertson) 3. 09:45 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael) 4. 09:49 AM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael) 5. 11:57 AM - MGL EFIS Question (Rich Simmons) 6. 12:05 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Sam Buchanan) 7. 01:33 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Tim Bryan) 8. 02:55 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Sam Buchanan) 9. 03:34 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Bill Bergner) 10. 04:40 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Mike Robertson) 11. 04:42 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Mike Robertson) 12. 10:05 PM - Re: Sample m aintenance log entry (Michael) 13. 10:33 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael) 14. 10:33 PM - Re: Sample maintenance log entry (Michael) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:07 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: RV-List: RE: Sample maintenance log entry Hi Mike- >Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness >certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. This is a common misunderstanding. For starters, part 43 has an appendix that specifically delineates what mx a pilot may perform and sign off. Beyond that, one of the avenues to earning an A&P is hands on experience. Obviously, work is being performed by non-rated individuals. The key is that the work is certified and signed off by a properly rated individual. Likewise, very many museum aircraft are maintained by unrated volunteers, but their work is inspected and signed off the right folks. It happens every day- glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:22 AM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. A S was stated=2C the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to e xperimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the ai rcraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly con dition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then complete it with name=2C signature=2C certificate type=2C and number in ac cordance with FAR 43.11. What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart about maintenance (sorry=2C but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first par agraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines tha t the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating rules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that i t does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certifie d person/agency. Now=2C if you have more current operating limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW th e night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different. As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircra ft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43=2C t hat possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I woul d need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But=2C if this is true th en it can be changed. As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this. If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the ai rcraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The latest versions states that you may make the major change=2C make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the cha nge and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may p lace more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time=2C but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it. Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 3 9 that ADs cover all aircraft and products=2C so "yes" ADs do apply to expe rimentals=2C BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washingto n DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So amateur-builts=2C even if a typed certificated engine is installed=2C do n ot have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA wo n't do anything if you overfly an AD=2C your insurance company may not cove r you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check with you agent to find out. Last thing. If you have older=2C or unclear Operating Limitations=2C you c an apply to the local FSDO=2C and now=2C some DARs=2C to issue new Operatin g Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations. I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few thing s. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly .. Mike Robertson Das Fed At last count 3 RVs built and still counting From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Well=2C guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says =93This aircr aft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14=2C c ode of federal regulations=2C Part 43.=94 So much for part 43 not applying to me=85=85. Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitati ons were cut. Any thoughts? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:42 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Michael=2C Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE=2C even a three year o ld child=2C can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major cha nges=2C as you point out=2C do require a return to phase 1 operation in acc ordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would requi re prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation. As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your pla n e=2C say a propeller or a starter=2C etc=2C then the ADs do apply. Oher tha n that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft=2C ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above. A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority reg arding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again=2C your 3-year kid ca n do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor. But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comp ly with your operating limitations=2C and make the required log book entrie s=2C if any. Message ----- From: Michael Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:06 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Ok=2C my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certi ficate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated pers on signing the work=2C builder with his repairman certificate=2C A&P or pre ventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops s pecs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small it ems are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change i n FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircr aft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testam ent. As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says: If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro peller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfactorily =2C the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r eturn to service only for the work performed. There you have it. Mike RV7 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 9:10 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Thanks Mike=2C I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer. So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals ) I can sign it off as 'builder'. Ralph 4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs..... -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Robertson >Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 11:43 AM >To: rv list >Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > >You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenan ce=2C or major alteration=2C and sign off the logbook in accordance with th e logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition=2C if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the year ly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again=2C this is stated the the a ircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop m e a line. > > > >Mike Robertson > >Das Fed > > > >> Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500 >> From: recapen@earthlink.net >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> >> >> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and bein g the builder allowed me to do the maintenance. >> >> Time for more research.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Michael >> >Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 10:34 AM >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >Well=2C this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do not >> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond >> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you out. All >> >you need in a logbook entry is date=2C aircraft/engine/appliance time =2C >> >description of work performed=2C signature and certificate type. If it is a >> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies. >> > >> >Here is the FAR: >> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) an d (c) >> >of this section=2C each person who maintains=2C performs preventive mai ntenance=2C >> >rebuilds=2C or alters an aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro peller=2C >> >appliance=2C or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance r ecord >> >of that equipment containing the following information: >> > >> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator ) of >> >work performed. >> > >> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed. >> > >> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person >> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section. >> > >> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engin e=2C >> >propeller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfac torily=2C >> >the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by the >> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r eturn >> >to service only for the work performed. >> > >> > >> > >> >How you format this info is up to you. >> > >> > >> > >> >Mike >> > >> >RV7 550Hrs >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >To: "rv-list" >> >Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 6:39 AM >> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > t> >> >> >> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly)=2C I would like to put an entry >> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow >> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format? >> >> >> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column=2C "aircraft time in ser vice" >> >> column=2C "descriptio n of work performed" column=2C and "agency&certi ficate >> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column. >> >> >> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of: >> >> >> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with >> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder. >> >> >> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe. >> >> >> >> Thanks=2C >> >> Ralph >> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >========== >========== >========== >========== >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or o n the go. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma tronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron ics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_0 22009 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:05 AM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Mike, You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. AS was stated, the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to experimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the aircraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly condition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then complete it with name, signature, certificate type, and number in accordance with FAR 43.11. What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart about maintenance (sorry, but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first paragraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines that the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating rules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that it does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certified person/agency. Now, if you have more current operating limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different. As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43, that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But, if this is true then it can be changed. As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this. If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the aircraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The latest versions states that you may make the major change, make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the change and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time, but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it. Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 39 that ADs cover all aircraft and products, so "yes" ADs do apply to experimentals, BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So amateur-builts, even if a typed certificated engine is installed, do not have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD, your insurance company may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check with you agent to find out. Last thing. If you have older, or unclear Operating Limitations, you can apply to the local FSDO, and now, some DARs, to issue new Operating Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations. I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few things. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly. Mike Robertson Das Fed At last count 3 RVs built and still counting _____ From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says "This aircraft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14, code of federal regulations, Part 43." So much for part 43 not applying to me... Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitations were cut. Any thoughts? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:42 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Michael, Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE, even a three year old child, can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major changes, as you point out, do require a return to phase 1 operation in accordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would require prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation. As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your plane, say a propeller or a starter, etc, then the ADs do apply. Oher than that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft, ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above. A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority regarding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again, your 3-year kid can do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor. But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comply with your operating limitations, and make the required log book entries, if any. Message ----- From: Michael Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated person signing the work, builder with his repairman certificate, A&P or preventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops specs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small items are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change in FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircraft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testament. As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says: If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed. There you have it. Mike RV7 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:10 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Thanks Mike, I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer. So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals) I can sign it off as 'builder'. Ralph 4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs..... -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Robertson >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 11:43 AM >To: rv list >Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > >You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition, if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again, this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop me a line. > > > >Mike Robertson > >Das Fed > > > >> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500 >> From: recapen@earthlink.net >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> >> >> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance. >> >> Time for more research.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Michael >> >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 10:34 AM >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >Well, this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do not >> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond >> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you out. All >> >you need in a logbook entry is date, aircraft/engine/appliance time, >> >description of work performed, signature and certificate type. If it is a >> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies. >> > >> >Here is the FAR: >> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) >> >of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, >> >rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, >> >appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record >> >of that equipment containing the following information: >> > >> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of >> >work performed. >> > >> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed. >> > >> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person >> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section. >> > >> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, >> >propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, >> >the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the >> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return >> >to service only for the work performed. >> > >> > >> > >> >How you format this info is up to you. >> > >> > >> > >> >Mike >> > >> >RV7 550Hrs >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >To: "rv-list" >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 AM >> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >> >> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly), I would like to put an entry >> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow >> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format? >> >> >> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column, "aircraft time in service" >> >> column, "description of work performed" column, and "agency&certificate >> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column. >> >> >> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of: >> >> >> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with >> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder. >> >> >> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ralph >> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >========== >= ======== >========== >========== >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on the go. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution _____ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. See how it works. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:20 AM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Mike, You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your know ledge and helping with the issue at hand. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. AS was stated, the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to experimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the aircraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly condition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then complete it with name, signature, certificate type, and number in accordance with FAR 43.11. What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart about maintenance (sorry, but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first paragraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines that the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating rules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that it does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certified person/agency. Now, if you have more current operating limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different. As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43, that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But, if this is true then it can be changed. As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this. If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the aircraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The latest versions states that you may make the major change, make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the change and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time, but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it. Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 39 that ADs cover all aircraft and products, so "yes" ADs do apply to experimentals, BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So amateur-builts, even if a typed certificated engine is installed, do not have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD, your insurance company may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check with you agent to find out. Last thing. If you have older, or unclear Operating Limitations, you can apply to the local FSDO, and now, some DARs, to issue new Operating Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations. I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few things. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly. Mike Robertson Das Fed At last count 3 RVs built and still counting _____ From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says "This aircraft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14, code of federal regulations, Part 43." So much for part 43 not applying to me... Does any one else have this statement in ther e op limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitations were cut. Any thoughts? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:42 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Michael, Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE, even a three year old child, can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major changes, as you point out, do require a return to phase 1 operation in accordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would require prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation. As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your plane, say a propeller or a starter, etc, then the ADs do apply. Oher than that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft, ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above. A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority regarding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again, your 3-year kid can do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor. But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comply with your operating limitations, and make the required log book entries, if any. Message ----- From: Michael Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated person signing the work, builder with his repairman certificate, A&P or preventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops specs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small items are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change in FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircraft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testament. As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says: If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed. There you have it. Mike RV7 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:10 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Thanks Mike, I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer. So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals) I can sign it off as 'builder'. Ralph 4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs..... -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Robertson >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 11:43 AM >To: rv list >Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > >You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition, if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the yearly condition in psection and sign it off. Again, this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop me a line. > > > >Mike Robertson > >Das Fed > > > >> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500 >> From: recapen@earthlink.net >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> >> >> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance. >> >> Time for more research.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Michael >> >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 10:34 AM >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >Well, this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do not >> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond >> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you out. All >> >you need in a logbook entry is date, aircraft/engine/appliance time, >> >description of work performed, signature and certificate type. If it is a >> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies. >> > >> >Here is the FAR: >> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) >> >of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, >> >rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, >> >appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record >> >of that equipment containing the following information: >> > >> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of >> >work performed. >> > >> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed. >> > >> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person >> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section. >> > >> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, >> >propeller, appl iance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, >> >the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the >> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return >> >to service only for the work performed. >> > >> > >> > >> >How you format this info is up to you. >> > >> > >> > >> >Mike >> > >> >RV7 550Hrs >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >To: "rv-list" >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 AM >> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >> >> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly), I would like to put an entry >> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow >> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format? >> >> >> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column, "aircraft time in service" >> >> column, "description of work performed" column, and "agency&certificate >> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column. >> >> >> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of: >> >> >> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with >> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder. >> >> >> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ralph >> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >========== >========== >========== >========== >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on the go. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigat or?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution _____ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. See how it works. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:05 AM PST US From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net> Subject: RV-List: MGL EFIS Question Anybody out there in RV land use the MGL colored EFIS? Tell me about you experiences. Do not archive Thanks, Rich ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:37 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Michael wrote: > Mike, > > > > You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO > is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no > time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don't > know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops > limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to > the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said > they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle > the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank > you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't > affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks > again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft to a > different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating > out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide > thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. > Michael, Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on your op lims. :-) This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception. Best regards, Sam Buchanan http://thervjournal.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:19 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry In addition I think 600 bucks for those changes is pretty absurd. I didn't pay half that to get my dar to inspect my plane and issue them in the first place. Sounds like they need some new blood in that area. Where are you Michael? Tim Bryan RV-6 Flying N616TBover 120 hours now > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:04 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > > Michael wrote: > > Mike, > > > > > > > > You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my > local FSDO > > is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they > had no > > time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I > don't > > know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft > so ops > > limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I > talked to > > the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He > said > > they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to > handle > > the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 > bucks thank > > you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it > doesn't > > affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 > bucks > > again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the > aircraft to a > > different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are > operating > > out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation > wide > > thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at > hand. > > > > Michael, > > Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating limitations > is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to > FAR > 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I > suspect violates the template of experimental certification as > recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with > limited experimental experience got their hands on your op lims. :-) > > This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and > also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your > plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting > to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do > all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception. > > Best regards, > > Sam Buchanan > http://thervjournal.com > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:41 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Sam Buchanan wrote: > > Michael wrote: >> Mike, >> >> >> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my >> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local >> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old >> tail number on them. I don't know wh y the FAA doesn't just put the >> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be >> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in >> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were >> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle >> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 >> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement >> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I >> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't >> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region >> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there >> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? >> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. >> > > Michael, > > Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating > limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental > being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national > practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental > certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous > FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on > your op lims. :-) > > This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes > and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of > your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs > wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can > legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare > exception. > To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type certificate are you supposed to comply? Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts...... ;-) If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA involved and get those op lims fixed. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:34 PM PST US From: "Bill Bergner" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry The Allentown FSDO did the paperwork for me for free 2 years ago and they were very accommodating and pleasant to work with. I don't know if their policy is different now. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 5:54 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Sam Buchanan wrote: > > Michael wrote: >> Mike, >> >> >> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my >> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local >> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old >> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the >> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be >> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in >> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were >> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle >> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 >> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement >> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I >> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't >> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region >> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there >> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? >> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. >> > > Michael, > > Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating > limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental > being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national > practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental > certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous > FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on > your op lims. :-) > > This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes > and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of > your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs > wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can > legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare > exception. > To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type certificate are you supposed to comply? Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts...... ;-) If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA involved and get those op lims fixed. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:11 PM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry It is your local FSDO being a pain. There is absolutely no legal requireme nt to inform the local FSDO if you move. Also=2C if you do not like the way you are being treated by your local FSDO you have the right to call their next higher up manager and file a complai nt. That is called invoking the customer service initiative. Reissuing op erating limitations and a new airworthiness certificate takes about 20 minu tes. If you don't want to hassle with your local FSDO you can go to anothe r FSDO like Van Nuys or Riverside. Mike R. Das Fed From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Mike=2C You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits=3B my local F SDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the loc al FSDO said they h ad no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don=92t know why the FAA doesn=92t just put the serial number of the aircra ft so ops limits don=92t have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn=92t accommodate me ? He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man powe r to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 60 0 bucks thank you very much. I don=92t want to change my 43 statement becau se it doesn=92t affect me=2C I am a mechanic for a living and I don=92t wan t to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don=92t realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them t hat you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with t he issue at hand. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson Sent: Friday=2C February 20=2C 2009 9:02 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. A S was stated=2C the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to e xperimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the ai rcraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly con dition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then complete it with name=2C signature=2C certificate type=2C and number in ac cordance with FAR 43.11. What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart about maintenance (sorry=2C but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first par agraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines tha t the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating r ules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that i t does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certifie d person/agency. Now=2C if you have more current operating limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW th e night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different. As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircra ft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43=2C t hat possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I woul d need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But=2C if this is true th en it can be changed. As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this. If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the ai rcraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The latest versions states that you may make the major change=2C make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the cha nge and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may p lace more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time=2C but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it. Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 3 9 that ADs cover all aircraft and products=2C so "yes" ADs do apply to expe rimentals=2C BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washingto n DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So amateur-builts=2C even if a typed certificated engine is installed=2C do n ot have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA wo n't do anythin g if you overfly an AD=2C your insurance company may not cove r you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check with you agent to find out. Last thing. If you have older=2C or unclear Operating Limitations=2C you c an apply to the local FSDO=2C and now=2C some DARs=2C to issue new Operatin g Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations. I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few thing s. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly .. Mike Robertson Das Fed At last count 3 RVs built and still counting From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Well=2C guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says =93This aircr aft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14=2C c ode of federal regulations=2C Part 43.=94 So much for part 43 not applying to me=85=85. Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitati ons were cut. Any thoughts? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:42 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Michael=2C Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE=2C even a three year o ld child=2C can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major cha nges=2C as you point out=2C do require a return to phase 1 operation in acc ordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would requi re prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation. As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your plan e=2C say a propeller or a starter=2C etc=2C then the ADs do apply. Oher tha n that unless the AD i s specifically aimed at you exact aircraft=2C ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above. A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority reg arding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again=2C your 3-year kid ca n do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor. But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comp ly with your operating limitations=2C and make the required log book entrie s=2C if any. Message ----- From: Michael Sent: Thursday=2C February 19=2C 2009 11:06 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Ok=2C my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certi ficate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated pers on signing the work=2C builder with his repairman certificate=2C A&P or pre ventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops s pecs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small it ems are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change i n FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircr aft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testam ent. As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says: If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro peller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfactorily =2C the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r eturn to service only for the work performed. There you have it. Mike RV7 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailt o:owner-rv-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 9:10 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Thanks Mike=2C I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer. So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals ) I can sign it off as 'builder'. Ralph 4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs..... -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Robertson >Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 11:43 AM >To: rv list >Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > >You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenan ce=2C or major alteration=2C and sign off the logbook in accordance with th e logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition=2C if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the year ly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again=2C this is stated the the a ircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop m e a line. > > > >Mike Robertson > >Das Fed > > > >> Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500 >> From: recapen@earthlink.net >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> >> >> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and bein g the builder allowed me to do the maintenance. >> >> Time for more research.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Michael >> >Sent: Feb 17=2C 2009 10:34 AM >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >Well=2C this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do not >> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond >> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you out. All >> >you need in a logbook entry is date=2C aircraft/engine/appliance time =2C >> >description of work performed=2C signature and certificate type. If it is a >> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies. >> > >> >Here is the FAR: >> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) an d (c) >> >of this section=2C each person who maintains=2C performs preventive mai ntenance=2C >> >rebuilds=2C or alters an aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engine=2C pro peller=2C >> >appliance=2C or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance r ecord >> >of that equipment containing the following information: >> > >> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator ) of >> >work performed. >> > >> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed. >> > >> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person >> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section. >> > >> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft=2C airframe=2C aircraft engin e=2C >> >propeller=2C appliance=2C or component part has been performed satisfac torily=2C >> >the signature=2C certificate number=2C and kind of certificate held by the >> >person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for r eturn >> >to service only for the work performed. >> > >> > >> > >> >How you format this info is up to you. >> > >> > >> > >> >Mike >> > >> >RV7 550Hrs >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >To: "rv-list" >> >Sent: Tuesday=2C February 17=2C 2009 6:39 AM >> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > t> >> >> >> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly)=2C I would like to put an entry >> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow >> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format? >> >> >> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column=2C "aircraft time in ser vice" >> >> column=2C "description of work performed" column=2C and "agency&certi ficate >> >> no. work performed/returned to servic e" column. >> >> >> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of: >> >> >> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with >> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder. >> >> >> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe. >> >> >> >> Thanks=2C >> >> Ralph >> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >========== >========== >========== >========== >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or o n the go. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma tronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron ics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution p://www.matronics..com/Navigat or?RV-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. See how it works. http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics .com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_0 22009 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:59 PM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry The policy is up to the local FSDO managment and is supposed to be dictated by man power availability. Mike R. > From: bill@bergner.com > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > Date: Fri=2C 20 Feb 2009 18:29:23 -0500 > > > The Allentown FSDO did the paperwork for me for free 2 years ago and they > were very accommodati ng and pleasant to work with. I don't know if their > policy is different now. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan > Sent: Friday=2C February 20=2C 2009 5:54 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > > Sam Buchanan wrote: > > > > Michael wrote: > >> Mike=2C > >> > >> > >> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits=3B my > >> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local > >> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old > >> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the > >> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be > >> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in > >> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were > >> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle > >> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 > >> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement > >> because it doesn't affect me=2C I am a mechanic for a living and I > >> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't > >> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region > >> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there > >> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? > >> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. > >> > > > > Michael=2C > > > > Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating > > limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental > > being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national > > practice=2C and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental > > certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous > > FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on > > your op lims. :-) > > > > This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes > > and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of > > your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs > > wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can > > legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare > > exception. > > > > To extend the thought=2C does the demand per your RV-7 operating > limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must > meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case=2C to what type > certificate are you supposed to comply? > > Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts...... > =3B-) > > If this was my plane=2C I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA > involved and get those op lims fixed. > > Sam Buchanan > > > > > > > ========== ========== ========== ========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:05 PM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Yea I hear ya but never fear I will NEVER sell my plane to anyone.......I will live in it and sell my house first!!! Resale...naww I don't thing so because the limits can be amended really for a nominal fee if one desire so. If value is based on 600 dollar change..then I don't want to deal with a buyer like that. Cheers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > Michael wrote: >> Mike, You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my >> local FSDO >> is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had >> no >> time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I >> don't >> know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so >> ops >> limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to >> the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said >> they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to >> handle >> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks >> thank >> you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't >> affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks >> again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft >> to a >> different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating >> out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide >> thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. >> > > Michael, > > Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating limitations is > the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to FAR 43 > maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I > suspect violates the template of experimental certification as recognized > nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with limited > experimental experience got their hands on your op lims. :-) > > This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and > also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your > plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting to > purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do all the > maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception. > > Best regards, > > Sam Buchanan > http://thervjournal.com > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:46 PM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry I don't see how part 43 talks about approved parts .. Why would I change the op limits???? I am a full time aircraft mechanic, my ops limitations do not hinder me in anyway. If you are a non A&P and want to " save money" by owning an experimental then I could see ones point. My RV is just like anyone else's, condition inspection and logical maintenance standards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > Sam Buchanan wrote: >> >> Michael wrote: >>> Mike, >>> >>> >>> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local >>> FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local >>> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old >>> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the >>> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be >>> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in >>> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me? He said they were >>> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the >>> case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 >>> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement >>> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I >>> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't >>> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region >>> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there >>> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? >>> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. >>> >> >> Michael, >> >> Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating >> limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental >> being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national >> practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental >> certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous >> FAA-types with limi ted experimental experience got their hands on >> your op lims. :-) >> >> This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes >> and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of >> your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs >> wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can >> legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare >> exception. >> > > To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating limitations > for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must meet FAA-PMA > and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type certificate are > you supposed to comply? > > Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts...... > ;-) > > If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA > involved and get those op lims fixed. > > Sam Buchanan > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:46 PM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Thanks for the insight Mike, I knew they were just being a pain in the ass. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Robertson To: rv list Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry It is your local FSDO being a pain. There is absolutely no legal requirement to inform the local FSDO if you move. Also, if you do not like the way you are being treated by your local FSDO you have the right to call their next higher up manager and file a complaint. That is called invoking the customer service initiative. Reissuing operating limitations and a new airworthiness certificate takes about 20 minutes. If you don't want to hassle with your local FSDO you can go to another FSDO like Van Nuys or Riverside. Mike R. Das Fed ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:41:43 -0800 Mike, You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don=92t know why the FAA doesn=92t just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don=92t have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn=92t accommodate me? He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank you very much. I don=92t want to change my 43 statement because it doesn=92t affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don=92t want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don=92t realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 AM To: rv list Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry OK. I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying. AS was stated, the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to experimental aircraft. What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the aircraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly condition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then complete it with name, signature, certificate type, and number in accordance with FAR 43.11. What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart about maintenan ce (sorry, but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on the road). What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first paragraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines that the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating rules of part 91. So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that it does not apply to experimentals then it does apply. That is why we have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certified person/agency. Now, if you have more current operating limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments that are listed in 91.205. If also states the that "unless equipped IAW the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted to day VFR". Older sircraft may have something different. As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43, that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in. I would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure. But, if this is true then it can be changed. As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this. If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the aircraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first. The latest versions states that you may make the major change, make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours. Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the change and where you propose to conduct the test flights. The fsdo also may place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time, but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it. Now....as to ADs. Here is the botom line. It very clearly states in FAR 39 that ADs cover all aircraft and products, so "yes" ADs do apply to experimentals, BUT it has been dete rmined by the FAA legal folks in Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So amateur-builts, even if a typed certificated engine is installed, do not have to comply with any AD. Here is the catch though. While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD, your insurance company may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD. Check with you agent to find out. Last thing. If you have older, or unclear Operating Limitations, you can apply to the local FSDO, and now, some DARs, to issue new Operating Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations. I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few things. If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly. Mike Robertson Das Fed At last count 3 RVs built and still counting ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: g4mech@sbcglobal.net To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:30:40 -0800 Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says =93This aircraft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of title 14, code of federal regulations, Part 43.=94 So much for part 43 not applying to me=85=85. Does any one else have this statement in there op limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when the Operation Limitations were cut. Any thoughts? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:42 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Michael, Your understanding is not correct. ANYONE, even a three year old child, can do maintenance on an experimental aircraft. The only thing requiring a 'certificate' is for the annual condition inspection. Major cha nges, as you point out, do require a return to phase 1 operation in accordance with your operating limitations. The older restrictions would require prior approval but the newer ones just require the log book entry after satisfactory operation for the (typical) 5-hours of phase 1 operation. As to ADs - if there is an AD on a specific part that you have in your plane, say a propeller or a starter, etc, then the ADs do apply. Oher than that unless the AD is specifically aimed at you exact aircraft, ADs do not apply with the exception pointed above. A pilot's certificate doesn't specifically cover or grant any authority regarding maintenance on an experimental aircraft. Again, your 3-year kid can do the work. The possession of a pilot's license is not a factor. But on an experimental aircraft you CAN "do anything you want" - only comply with your operating limitations, and make the required log book entries, if any. Message ----- From: Michael To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. They have to be a certificated person signing the work, builder with his repairman certificate, A&P or preventative maintenance which a pilot's certificate will cover. Experimental only have relief from approved parts and Ads but other than that your ops specs will tell you to maintain like it was a 91 airplane with exception to: "condition being used" instead of annual. There is a misconception that we can do "whatever we want" to our planes but that is not the case. Small items are logbook entries only but anything that constitutes a major change in FAR 21.93 the owner must recomply with FAR 91.319(b) which puts the aircraft back into phase 1 flight testing. If anyone has dealings with the feds like I do on a REGULAR bases (part 135/145) you should see a similar testament. As far as part 43.9 here is what the FAR says: If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed. There you have it. Mike RV7 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:10 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry Thanks Mike, I have downloaded a bunch of the FAR's for documentation in my computer. So....until I get the repairman's cert (and afterwards - except for annuals) I can sign it off as 'builder'. Ralph 4.7 hrs - working off a couple of minor bugs..... -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Robertson >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 11:43 AM >To: rv list >Subject: RE: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry > > >You are correct. On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9. In addition, if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations. The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off. Again, this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations. If you have any specific questions drop me a line. > > > >Mike Robertson > >Das Fed > > > >> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500 >> From: recapen@earthlink.net >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenan ce log entry >> >> >> I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance. >> >> Time for more research.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Michael >> >Sent: Feb 17, 2009 10:34 AM >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >Well, this exercise will require a logbook sign off and since you do not >> >have a repairman cert and a pilots license is not acceptable (beyond >> >preventive maintenance) then you need to find and A&P to help you out. All >> >you need in a logbook entry is date, aircraft/engine/appliance time, >> >description of work performed, signature and certificate type. If it is a >> >condition inspection then the statement in part 43 applies. >> > >> >Here is the FAR: >> >(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) >> >of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, >> >rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, >> >appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record >> >of that equipment containing the following information: >> > >> >(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of >> >work performed. >> > >> >(2) The date of completion of the work performed. >> > >> >(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person >> >specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section. >> > >> >(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, >> >propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, >> >the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the >> >person approving the work. The signatu re constitutes the approval for return >> >to service only for the work performed. >> > >> > >> > >> >How you format this info is up to you. >> > >> > >> > >> >Mike >> > >> >RV7 550Hrs >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >To: "rv-list" >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 AM >> >Subject: RV-List: Sample maintenance log entry >> > >> > >> >> >> >> For documentation purposes (my own mainly), I would like to put an entry >> >> in to my maintenance log to document the calibration of my fuel flow >> >> sensor. Is there a required / suggested format? >> >> >> >> My logbook has a "Date of completion" column, "aircraft time in service" >> >> column, "description of work performed" column, and "agency&certificate >> >> no. work performed/returned to service" column. >> >> >> >> I was thinking of something along the lines of: >> >> >> >> 07Feb2009 3.2hrs Calibrated fuel flow 'K' factor in accordance with >> >> AF-3400 user guide V5.5 dtd 30Oct2008 /signature/builder. >> >> >> >> I do not yet have the repairman's certificate for this airframe. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ralph >> >> RV6A N822AR @ N06 4.7 hrs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >========== >========== >========== >========== >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the go. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.comhref="http://www.matroni cs.com/contribution">http://www.mat ronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp ://www.matronics.com/contribution p://www.matronics..com/Navigator?RV-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contri bution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. 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