---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/30/09: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:00 PM - RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim (Terry McCurry) 2. 01:23 PM - Re: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim (Ralph E. Capen) 3. 01:36 PM - Re: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim (Panama Red) 4. 02:36 PM - Re: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 5. 06:31 PM - Re: dual mags (Generation 3 Ignition) 6. 07:29 PM - Re: timing advance (Generation 3 Ignition) 7. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: timing advance (Dale Walter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:49 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim From: "Terry McCurry" Hello List, Recently I purchased a RV 4 that was completed in 1988 by another builder. The aircraft has as electric trim in the left wing tip which does not work at this time. I have confirmed that the switch is sending power (12vdc) out to the servo motor but nothing happens. Checking the leads from the motor with an ohm meter indicates an open circuit. My problem is that I can see rivets in the wing tip where the trim motor is mounted but there is no assess panel to service the motor. Has anyone got any ideas that might be a solution which would work other than removing the wing tip? Thanks TM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:24 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim How is the trim actuated? Is there a tab on the trailing edge or is there a built-in tab in the trailing edge? Can you get to the 'other' ends of the wiring? Are there two or five wires? (two being for motor only and five giving you a position indicator) Is there a landing/taxi light in the leading edge? That might provide access the the area forward of the spar. For the area aft of the spar, removing the tip is the only option that I can dream of. I made my tips removable as my strobe power packs are out there. If there's stuff out there that might (ever) need to be worked on, I would figure out a way to make the tips maintenance oriented. Just my .02 worth, Ralph RV6A N822AR @ N06 8.3 hrs -----Original Message----- >From: Terry McCurry >Sent: Mar 30, 2009 3:55 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim > >Hello List, Recently I purchased a RV 4 that was completed in 1988 by >another builder. The aircraft has as electric trim in the left wing tip >which does not work at this time. I have confirmed that the switch is >sending power (12vdc) out to the servo motor but nothing happens. >Checking the leads from the motor with an ohm meter indicates an open >circuit. My problem is that I can see rivets in the wing tip where the >trim motor is mounted but there is no assess panel to service the motor. >Has anyone got any ideas that might be a solution which would work >other than removing the wing tip? > >Thanks > >TM > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:26 PM PST US From: "Panama Red" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim You can cut your own hole and then make an access panel. But, even then, I find in the long run you will end up taking the wingtip off anyway. I know everyone has a different perspective, but I have been flying for 7 years with no manual or electric trim. I have the manual trim, but I have not installed it. I don't see any real benefit for the amount of work involved. Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry McCurry To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:55 PM Subject: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim Hello List, Recently I purchased a RV 4 that was completed in 1988 by another builder. The aircraft has as electric trim in the left wing tip which does not work at this time. I have confirmed that the switch is sending power (12vdc) out to the servo motor but nothing happens. Checking the leads from the motor with an ohm meter indicates an open circuit. My problem is that I can see rivets in the wing tip where the trim motor is mounted but there is no assess panel to service the motor. Has anyone got any ideas that might be a solution which would work other than removing the wing tip? Thanks TM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:25 PM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim Is the servo attached with rivets and a rod attached to the aileron, or is everything on the inside of the aileron? Is there an inspection plate somewhere along the aft edge of the wing? Do you know the previous owner of the plane and/or the original builder? If you remove the tip, you could use platenuts or a piano hinge to reinstall the tip. Others have cut an opening in the tip and then reinstalled the fiberglass with platenuts. This may be a good way to get into the wing and the worst case is you need a new tip or fiberglass repair. Just my 2 cents. Jim RV9a building ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim > > How is the trim actuated? Is there a tab on the trailing edge or is there > a built-in tab in the trailing edge? Can you get to the 'other' ends of > the wiring? Are there two or five wires? (two being for motor only and > five giving you a position indicator) > > Is there a landing/taxi light in the leading edge? That might provide > access the the area forward of the spar. For the area aft of the spar, > removing the tip is the only option that I can dream of. > > I made my tips removable as my strobe power packs are out there. If > there's stuff out there that might (ever) need to be worked on, I would > figure out a way to make the tips maintenance oriented. > > Just my .02 worth, > > Ralph > RV6A N822AR @ N06 8.3 hrs > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Terry McCurry >>Sent: Mar 30, 2009 3:55 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RV-List: RV 4 Electric Aileron Trim >> >>Hello List, Recently I purchased a RV 4 that was completed in 1988 by >>another builder. The aircraft has as electric trim in the left wing tip >>which does not work at this time. I have confirmed that the switch is >>sending power (12vdc) out to the servo motor but nothing happens. >>Checking the leads from the motor with an ohm meter indicates an open >>circuit. My problem is that I can see rivets in the wing tip where the >>trim motor is mounted but there is no assess panel to service the motor. >>Has anyone got any ideas that might be a solution which would work >>other than removing the wing tip? >> >>Thanks >> >>TM >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:48 PM PST US From: "Generation 3 Ignition" Subject: RV-List: Re: dual mags Hello Glen, Yes, The G3i system will work with the Bendix dual mag. Since the internals electrics are the same as the Bendix1200 series magnetos, and I have done a few of the 1200 series. I personally have not done a Bendix dual mag modification yet. It would be a good candidate though. We will have many various types of magnetos that will be modified, including the Bendix dual mag. at our AirVenture booth this year on display. Sincerely, Thomas Shpakow Interfacing Aircraft Magnetos Electronic Multiple Spark Technology GENERATION 3 IGNITION 2331 W. Hampden Ave. 130 Englewood, CO. 80110 T 303-781-9449 C 303-906-6846 F 303-806-5120 www.g3ignition.com mail@g3ignition.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:17 AM Subject: dual mags I see no mention of Bendix dual mag systems. Can your system be installed on a dual mag? Glen ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:52 PM PST US From: "Generation 3 Ignition" Subject: RV-List: Re: timing advance Hello Dave, Well first off, we all know the aircraft engine is of large displacement, which has a very small rpm window of operation, and to top it off also, it has very poor air/fuel atomization with a huge combustion chamber. So, how? Well the fuel economy and extra hp comes from the Multiple Spark Discharge (MSD). When the first firing event of the MSD takes place, a flame front is created. As this flame front is burning in the combustion chamber, there is a swirling turbulence that takes place. Drawing unburned air/fuel mixture passed the spark plugs. This is where the MSD come into play. The second and third firing event then ignites this air/fuel mixture, which creates a quicker complete burn of the air/fuel mixture as the piston passes through TDC. The MSD spark is not hotter and doesn't need to be, that is why we do not use huge spark plug air gaps. As the saying goes, screwing a 75 watt light bulb into a 300 watt socket the bulb is not going to burn any brighter. The others all claim to get their advantage from timing advance along with hotter spark. The key word in the sentence is "spark" that's singular. With one spark you need more time to get that complete combustion since it is so slow. The only way is to ramp up (advance) the timing close to the verge of detonation, and also deliver a hotter spark hoping that it will have a better chance (only chance) of ignition. With these timing advances, the cylinder pressures go up tremendously as the piston travels towards and over TDC. This creates more ware on engine internals from these pressures. As for a =BD and =BD mag/electronic advance ignition system.. For example, the electronics are firing @, let's say 35 degrees and the mag is set at 25 degrees. Since the combustion has already started, that mag is now confronted with firing though an incredible amount of cylinder pressure, if it can at all. I have seen mag failure on the =BD and =BD systems. I hope this helps some, these will be some of the topics spoken in great detail @ our booth at AirVenture this year. Sincerely, Thomas S. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:43 PM Subject: ***SPAM***Re: FormContactus timing advance So you are saying there is negligible benefit to advancing timing greater than 25 degrees BTDC below 12,500 pressure altitude and only a 1% advantage above? Where then does the fuel economy and extra hp you see with your system come from? The hotter spark? I am really trying to understand all the different systems out there and yours seems to be the easiest to install, and I like the mag back-up. But the others all claim to get their advantage from timing advance along with hotter spark. I'll be frank, I am torn between your system and Electroair. I would use a single mag and the Electroair system. Sell me on yours. Thanks!! Dave ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 7:18 AM Subject: Re: FormContactus timing advance Hello Dave, The G3i system dose not have a timing advance built in. A timing control module can be added which will give you a adjustable timing window of 15 degrees from base timing angle. We found in flight testing/research working with different timing angles, the benefits of economy and performance of running more than a couple of degrees higher than the stock manufacture timing setting were not all that beneficial below 12K. And less than 1% @ altitudes above 12,500ft and less than 60% power. All performance and economy specs.show are @ the stock engine manufacturer timing angle. Sincerely, Thomas Shpakow ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:29 PM Subject: ***SPAM***Re: FormContactus Does your system advance timing? Dave ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:45 AM Subject: Re: FormContactus Hello Dave, Well, there is really no comparison, Slick/Unison LASAR would be the closest since it still has the mag redundancy. There are many benefits to electronic ignitions systems out there, however our product has the best fall back on redundancy available. You don't have to run half a ignition system to still have mag redunecy. Its doesn't require back-up batteries to still operate if you lose the aircraft electrical system, and/or if a sensor or some other electronic ignition component fails, the G3i system reverts back to the original magnetos to still continue ignition firing. The G3i system fires both ignition systems together in perfect sync. which produces engine smoothness and performance/economy gains. Fuel economy gains are realistically are from 8% to 14%. On static dynamotor test pulls, 2% - 5% has been record in pounds of thrust @ 100% power. On starting the G3i provides multiple spark to both L&R ignitions instantly in sync. making starting much easier. Does not need 3 crankshaft revolutions to see a signal on when to fire. Installation is straight forward and easily done. Please ck out our website on the insall manual or give us a call about our product. We will be in KOSH Airventure booth 1148 this year also. Thank you for you inquiry. Sincerely, Thomas Shpakow Interfacing Aircraft Magnetos Electronic Multiple Spark Technology GENERATION 3 IGNITION 2331 W. Hampden Ave. 130 Englewood, CO. 80110 T 303-781-9449 C 303-906-6846 F 303-806-5120 www.g3ignition.com mail@g3ignition.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: FormContactus > hearabout: matronics RV-10 list > question: How does your system compare to LASAR or Electroair and others? > I am building an RV-10. I was considering Electroair until I saw your product. > Ease of install? Any better performance than others? Thanks. > > Dave Leikam > RV-10 > Submit32: Submit > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:16 PM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: timing advance I have to protest the allegation that conditions in the combustion chamber would cause early failure of a magneto. BTW, Before installing my 2nd (dual) electronic ignition I put 900 hours on a slick mag (while running the Electroair), working perfect at the time of removal. Proper use of the Electroair or Lightspeed systems reduces CHTs and increases horsepower. There are many well educated pilots on this forum. Your system may be good, but please stick to the facts. Dale RV6a 0-360 Electroair / Lightspeed, dual electric sys ----- Original Message ----- From: Generation 3 Ignition To: Dave Leikam Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: timing advance Hello Dave, Well first off, we all know the aircraft engine is of large displacement, which has a very small rpm window of operation, and to top it off also, it has very poor air/fuel atomization with a huge combustion chamber. So, how? Well the fuel economy and extra hp comes from the Multiple Spark Discharge (MSD). When the first firing event of the MSD takes place, a flame front is created. As this flame front is burning in the combustion chamber, there is a swirling turbulence that takes place. Drawing unburned air/fuel mixture passed the spark plugs. This is where the MSD come into play. The second and third firing event then ignites this air/fuel mixture, which creates a quicker complete burn of the air/fuel mixture as the piston passes through TDC. The MSD spark is not hotter and doesn't need to be, that is why we do not use huge spark plug air gaps. As the saying goes, screwing a 75 watt light bulb into a 300 watt socket the bulb is not going to burn any brighter. The others all claim to get their advantage from timing advance along with hotter spark. The key word in the sentence is "spark" that's singular. With one spark you need more time to get that complete combustion since it is so slow. The only way is to ramp up (advance) the timing close to the verge of detonation, and also deliver a hotter spark hoping that it will have a better chance (only chance) of ignition. With these timing advances, the cylinder pressures go up tremendously as the piston travels towards and over TDC. This creates more ware on engine internals from these pressures. As for a =BD and =BD mag/electronic advance ignition system.. For example, the electronics are firing @, let's say 35 degrees and the mag is set at 25 degrees. Since the combustion has already started, that mag is now confronted with firing though an incredible amount of cylinder pressure, if it can at all. I have seen mag failure on the =BD and =BD systems. I hope this helps some, these will be some of the topics spoken in great detail @ our booth at AirVenture this year. Sincerely, Thomas S. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:43 PM Subject: ***SPAM***Re: FormContactus timing advance So you are saying there is negligible benefit to advancing timing greater than 25 degrees BTDC below 12,500 pressure altitude and only a 1% advantage above? Where then does the fuel economy and extra hp you see with your system come from? The hotter spark? I am really trying to understand all the different systems out there and yours seems to be the easiest to install, and I like the mag back-up. But the others all claim to get their advantage from timing advance along with hotter spark. I'll be frank, I am torn between your system and Electroair. I would use a single mag and the Electroair system. Sell me on yours. Thanks!! Dave ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 7:18 AM Subject: Re: FormContactus timing advance Hello Dave, The G3i system dose not have a timing advance built in. A timing control module can be added which will give you a adjustable timing window of 15 degrees from base timing angle. We found in flight testing/research working with different timing angles, the benefits of economy and performance of running more than a couple of degrees higher than the stock manufacture timing setting were not all that beneficial below 12K. And less than 1% @ altitudes above 12,500ft and less than 60% power. All performance and economy specs.show are @ the stock engine manufacturer timing angle. Sincerely, Thomas Shpakow ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:29 PM Subject: ***SPAM***Re: FormContactus Does your system advance timing? Dave ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:45 AM Subject: Re: FormContactus Hello Dave, Well, there is really no comparison, Slick/Unison LASAR would be the closest since it still has the mag redundancy. There are many benefits to electronic ignitions systems out there, however our product has the best fall back on redundancy available. You don't have to run half a ignition system to still have mag redunecy. Its doesn't require back-up batteries to still operate if you lose the aircraft electrical system, and/or if a sensor or some other electronic ignition component fails, the G3i system reverts back to the original magnetos to still continue ignition firing. The G3i system fires both ignition systems together in perfect sync. which produces engine smoothness and performance/economy gains. Fuel economy gains are realistically are from 8% to 14%. On static dynamotor test pulls, 2% - 5% has been record in pounds of thrust @ 100% power. On starting the G3i provides multiple spark to both L&R ignitions instantly in sync. making starting much easier. Does not need 3 crankshaft revolutions to see a signal on when to fire. Installation is straight forward and easily done. Please ck out our website on the insall manual or give us a call about our product. We will be in KOSH Airventure booth 1148 this year also. Thank you for you inquiry. Sincerely, Thomas Shpakow Interfacing Aircraft Magnetos Electronic Multiple Spark Technology GENERATION 3 IGNITION 2331 W. Hampden Ave. 130 Englewood, CO. 80110 T 303-781-9449 C 303-906-6846 F 303-806-5120 www.g3ignition.com mail@g3ignition.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: FormContactus > hearabout: matronics RV-10 list > question: How does your system compare to LASAR or Electroair and others? > I am building an RV-10. I was considering Electroair until I saw your product. > Ease of install? Any better performance than others? Thanks. > > Dave Leikam > RV-10 > Submit32: Submit > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.