---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/06/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:18 AM - Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. (bluesidedown) 2. 06:04 AM - Re: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. (Kevin Horton) 3. 06:07 AM - Siler Instruments Fueltron wiring (MacDonald Doug) 4. 07:22 AM - Re: Adjusting Sensenich prop tracking (charlie heathco) 5. 08:04 AM - Re: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. (Michael) 6. 09:05 AM - Re: Adjusting Sensenich prop tracking (Jim Fogarty, Lakes & Leisure Realty, Inc.) 7. 10:06 AM - Re: Nose wheel shimmy (HCRV6@comcast.net) 8. 10:50 AM - Enjoy a better life! (cfranz1021@aol.com) 9. 02:05 PM - Re: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. (Charles Kuss) 10. 06:06 PM - Re: Fuel tank/burn question - UPDATE (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:07 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. From: "bluesidedown" My oil pressure is fluctuating considerably when prop braking and I think it is because of my prop governor but I am not sure. Now the oil pressure is 80 lbs at full throttle and only drops to 50 (at) 800 rpm when fully warmed up and on the ground is as strong and steady as you could want. Even fast taxing back and forth is is fine. But when I am flying what happens is when I pull back the throttle the oil pressure fluctuates considerably. It only happens in the air when I pull back the throttle and the prop is braking and only after the temperature reaches 200. Now on the ground I can't reproduce it and all is normal, only in the air when the prop braking can I reproduce it. Another thing I noticed is that it will not go to 2700 but only about 2600 and I adjusted it out but no effect. On the ground when I cycle the prop the pressure drops from 80 to 60 or so. The engine is an AEIO-360-A1E with a front mounted Hartzell governor and the prop is a new Whirlwind 200c. Any ideas? Anyone have a oil flow diagram for A Lycoming? Thanks Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237959#237959 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:22 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. On 6 Apr 2009, at 08:16, bluesidedown wrote: > My oil pressure is fluctuating considerably when prop braking and I > think it is because of my prop governor but I am not sure. Now the > oil pressure is 80 lbs at full throttle and only drops to 50 (at) > 800 rpm when fully warmed up and on the ground is as strong and > steady as you could want. Even fast taxing back and forth is is > fine. But when I am flying what happens is when I pull back the > throttle the oil pressure fluctuates considerably. It only happens > in the air when I pull back the throttle and the prop is braking and > only after the temperature reaches 200. Now on the ground I can't > reproduce it and all is normal, only in the air when the prop > braking can I reproduce it. Another thing I noticed is that it will > not go to 2700 but only about 2600 and I adjusted it out but no > effect. On the ground when I cycle the prop the pressure drops from > 80 to 60 or so. > > The engine is an AEIO-360-A1E with a front mounted Hartzell governor > and the prop is a new Whirlwind 200c. > > Any ideas? Anyone have a oil flow diagram for A Lycoming? Mike, Is this an aerobatic prop that goes to coarse pitch if the oil pressure drops, or a normal prop that goes to fine pitch with no oil pressure? Is your positive g oil pickup at the very back of the oil sump? If so, when the prop is braking, the oil may be moving far enough forward in the oil sump so the oil pickup is starting to suck some air. Try running with more oil in the sump. The inverted oil system oil separator should keep the engine from losing too much oil through the breather. If this is a normal prop, be very, very careful. I've got an IO-360- A1B6 with a Christen inverted oil system in my RV-8. I too was seeing occasional oil pressure fluctuations when I pulled the power back, but I increased the oil quantity in the sump, and believed the issue was resolved. Then one day I pulled the back sharply at 200 kt in a descent, and all hell broke lose. The oil pressure plummeted, the prop went to full fine pitch and the rpm hit almost 4000. I pulled the nose up, and the oil pressure came back up, and the rpm came back down. I followed the Lycoming and Hartzell overspeed recommendations - I had Aero Sport Power do an engine inspection + replace connecting rod bolts and crankshaft counterweight bushings. I replaced the Christen oil pickup with one from Raven Aircraft that has the pickup nearer the middle of the sump. I scrapped the prop and bought a new aerobatic prop and prop governor. This was a very expensive episode, plus the aircraft was on the ground for about four months. I have since learned from several sources in the aerobatic community that the long oil sump on the IO-360-A series Lycomings in combination with the Christen oil pickup is known to have issues in steep descents, or when the power is pulled sharply back. Not a huge problem with an aerobatic prop, but a real big deal with a normal prop. Be careful. -- Kevin Horton (Grounded) RV-8 (Flight Test Phase) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:44 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: RV-List: Siler Instruments Fueltron wiring Hey guys, I have recently gotten a Silver Instruments Fueltron IIIG fuel flow instrument (really cheap). Unfortunately it didn't come with a manual or wiring harness. Does anyone on this list happen to have the pin out or installation information for this critter? Supposedly they were commonly installed in Bonanzas etc back in the late 70's and early 80's. Thanks for any help I can get. Doug MacDonald NW Ontario, Canada RV-4 Dreamer Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:50 AM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: Adjusting Sensenich prop tracking I am not sure, but I think 40ft punds is too much?? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:48 AM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. How did you try to adjust it to get 2700 rpm? Just FYI 180 is the target oil temp, 200 is fine but it would be better to try to get it to 180. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:59 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. > > On 6 Apr 2009, at 08:16, bluesidedown wrote: > >> My oil pressure is fluctuating considerably when prop braking and I >> think it is because of my prop governor but I am not sure. Now the oil >> pressure is 80 lbs at full throttle and only drops to 50 (at) 800 rpm >> when fully warmed up and on the ground is as strong and steady as you >> could want. Even fast taxing back and forth is is fine. But when I am >> flying what happens is when I pull back the throttle the oil pressure >> fluctuates considerably. It only happens in the air when I pull back the >> throttle and the prop is braking and only after the temperature reaches >> 200. Now on the ground I can't reproduce it and all is normal, only in >> the air when the prop braking can I reproduce it. Another thing I >> noticed is that it will not go to 2700 but only about 2600 and I >> adjusted it out but no effect. On the ground when I cycle the prop the >> pressure drops from 80 to 60 or so. >> >> The engine is an AEIO-360-A1E with a front mounted Hartzell governor and >> the prop is a new Whirlwind 200c. >> >> Any ideas? Anyone have a oil flow diagram for A Lycoming? > > Mike, > > Is this an aerobatic prop that goes to coarse pitch if the oil pressure > drops, or a normal prop that goes to fine pitch with no oil pressure? > > Is your positive g oil pickup at the very back of the oil sump? If so, > when the prop is braking, the oil may be moving far enough forward in the > oil sump so the oil pickup is starting to suck some air. Try running > with more oil in the sump. The inverted oil system oil separator should > keep the engine from losing too much oil through the breather. > > If this is a normal prop, be very, very careful. I've got an IO-360- A1B6 > with a Christen inverted oil system in my RV-8. I too was seeing > occasional oil pressure fluctuations when I pulled the power back, but I > increased the oil quantity in the sump, and believed the issue was > resolved. Then one day I pulled the back sharply at 200 kt in a descent, > and all hell broke lose. The oil pressure plummeted, the prop went to > full fine pitch and the rpm hit almost 4000. I pulled the nose up, and > the oil pressure came back up, and the rpm came back down. I followed > the Lycoming and Hartzell overspeed recommendations - I had Aero Sport > Power do an engine inspection + replace connecting rod bolts and > crankshaft counterweight bushings. I replaced the Christen oil pickup > with one from Raven Aircraft that has the pickup nearer the middle of the > sump. I scrapped the prop and bought a new aerobatic prop and prop > governor. This was a very expensive episode, plus the aircraft was on > the ground for about four months. > > I have since learned from several sources in the aerobatic community that > the long oil sump on the IO-360-A series Lycomings in combination with > the Christen oil pickup is known to have issues in steep descents, or > when the power is pulled sharply back. Not a huge problem with an > aerobatic prop, but a real big deal with a normal prop. Be careful. > > -- > Kevin Horton (Grounded) > RV-8 (Flight Test Phase) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:33 AM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty, Lakes & Leisure Realty, Inc." Subject: Re: RV-List: Adjusting Sensenich prop tracking Joe and Jan, Here is a good guy to check with, Doug Shears, A&P/Vibe Tech, Propbalancing.com, 5 Como Ave., St. Paul, MN. Check him out online. He was at our last MNWing Van's Air Force meeting at Lake Elmo. Jim RV9a Building ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe & Jan Connell To: RV-List Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 3:29 PM Subject: RV-List: Adjusting Sensenich prop tracking Gentlemen: I have an RV-9A with and Aero Sport 160 hp O-320 with a Sensenich fixed pitch prop and a 2 1/4 spacer. Today I hung the prop and spacer on the engine and torqued the 7/16ths bolts to 40 ft lbs. I raised the nose strut and rested it on a block to keep the nose from moving. The top spark plugs were removed. I set up a heavy camera tripod and attached a probe to touch the aft edge of the prop about 3 inches from the end of the prop. I've rotated the prop a number of times and the deviation between the two blades is .02 inches. Am I in the ball park on this? I could rotate the spacer 180 degrees to the prop and try again. I could rotate the prop and spacer in relation to the engine. Is it normal to be able to get the tracking closer? Suggestions are welcome - I need to get this squared away before I proceed too far with the spinner. Many thanks... Joe Connell Stewartville, MN RV-9A N95JJ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:52 AM PST US From: HCRV6@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Nose wheel shimmy Linn, Of course there would be no advantage to using a taper pin in a straight re amed hole.=C2- You need a taper reamer.=C2- Archives should turn up mor e info on this and references to sources for the pins and reamers. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 565 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn" Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 9:04:10 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: RV-List: Nose wheel shimmy Well, I really didn't think of that ...... and the choice would be determin ed by the amount of damage in the wallowed out holes and if they're differe nt on either side.=C2- You could ream from the larger hole side and not ' waste' any more tube area on the smaller side with the tapered approach whe re the standard bolt size increases by 1/16th.=C2- And the fact that I ha ve a drill set/bolts instead of the tapered reamer/pins would probably driv e my decision.=C2- Reaming with a straight reamer would mean that the tap ered pin would only align one side of the tube and cut the torsional streng th in half.=C2- If I'm missing something here, please let me know. Linn Linn, Just curious why you haven't considered using a taper pin (bolt) at the top of the nose wheel strut.=C2- Several folks with the little wheel at the proper end have had problems with the tail wheel spring working loose at th e anti-rotation bolt (the set up looks like the nose wheel strut only sligh tly smaller) and corrected this by reaming the mount hole and installing a taper pin. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 565 hours == ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:34 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Enjoy a better life! From: cfranz1021@aol.com Hi, Hope you everything goes well.I find a good company to buy electronic products recently. Now it is under sales promotion.they provide the attractive service and price to customers, It is really a good chance for shopping. Just grasp the opportunity, Now or never! When you are free, please visit www.Diorsw.com?. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:27 PM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. Mike, I am going to send you a diagram of the oiling system off list. I'm also going to send you a photo of a special tool you can easily make yourself to check for possible air leaks in the system between the governor and the prop. The photo I'm sending is of the tool I made. These should help you troubleshoot your problem. Charlie Kuss --- On Mon, 4/6/09, bluesidedown wrote: > From: bluesidedown > Subject: RV-List: Fluctuating oil pressure during prop braking. > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 8:16 AM > > > My oil pressure is fluctuating considerably when prop > braking and I think it is because of my prop governor but I > am not sure. Now the oil pressure is 80 lbs at full throttle > and only drops to 50 (at) 800 rpm when fully warmed up and > on the ground is as strong and steady as you could want. > Even fast taxing back and forth is is fine. But when I am > flying what happens is when I pull back the throttle the oil > pressure fluctuates considerably. It only happens in the air > when I pull back the throttle and the prop is braking and > only after the temperature reaches 200. Now on the ground I > can't reproduce it and all is normal, only in the air > when the prop braking can I reproduce it. Another thing I > noticed is that it will not go to 2700 but only about 2600 > and I adjusted it out but no effect. On the ground when I > cycle the prop the pressure drops from 80 to 60 or so. > > The engine is an AEIO-360-A1E with a front mounted Hartzell > governor and the prop is a new Whirlwind 200c. > > Any ideas? Anyone have a oil flow diagram for A Lycoming? > > Thanks > Mike > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237959#237959 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:54 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Fuel tank/burn question - UPDATE From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" Thanks for all the responses, guys. I've conclusive established that my LH tank takes 52 litres (13 gals) from EMPTY. I'm gonna check the other tank shortly. I've investigated leakage possibilities, but it doesn't seem to leak. (Topped off both, took off on good tank, flew round for a while, landed, "bad" tank still full. I'm going to have a look at the innards of the tank, but Jerry's point that burning 13 gals per hour is not unlikely on an 0.360, WOT at 2700 rpm, reassures me a bit. I'm considering all suggestions that were made, and ruling 'em out one by one. I appreciate all the help, and the many offers of fuel caps. Thanks y'all Andrew Fairfax (NZ) PS John, the "sucking of the caps off, in flight, means just what it sounds like. I think the "low pressure" explanation makes sense - with old (dry) caps, they don't "spread" properly, are not secure, and pop, they're gone. Am gonna be careful about keeping seals lubricated from now on, and yes, carry a spare. And try not to fly over people :) Andrew Fairfax | CEO | ACTIVE NEW ZEALAND AND ACTIVE SOUTH AMERICA PO Box 972 | Queenstown, New Zealand 9300 | +64.3.441.2045 Free phone Numbers | 1.800.661.9073 (US & Canada) | 0808.234.7780 (UK) Fax Numbers | +64-3-409-0119 (NZ) | 1-603-251-1051 (US & Canada) www.activenewzealand.com | www.activesouthamerica.com Just so you know, to reduce email traffic and in the interests of peace, love &harmony, if emails to me need no ACTION, just a "thanks", "got it" etc, please presume I've been appropriately polite, even if I don't reply directly. Likewise, if my email doesn't require a substantive response, it's fine with me if you don't respond. If you have sent me an email, and it's important, and there's a long delay in my response, feel free to resend, but do know that I do get all my emails. It's just that, um, there's sometimes quite a line-up of the wee fellas :) ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denis Walsh Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 11:46 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel tank/burn questions first of all my money is with Doug's Imperial answer. As to cap sucking. My six has blown (had sucked) off a couple tank caps over the years. I now carry a spare with me. In my case they were left loose, either by the fueler or by me. The good news is that in coordinated flight and reasonable attitudes and speeds, the fuel quits drooling after only a half gallon or so. I should add that I have also fliight checked another fascinating condition, which is having the fuel cap slightly cocked in the receptacle, but latched snug. This can also result in fuel going overboard, due to the aforementioned low pressure area over the cap. Again the fuel drool stops after a short time in coordinated flight, most likely because of the fortuitous dihedral of the Van's wing. Denis On Apr 3, 2009, at 2:24 , Doug Gray wrote: On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 06:08 +1000, Doug Gray wrote: it only took 12.5 gallons. Wait a minute - are you in New Zealand? 12.5 Imp Gallons * 1.2 => 15 USG You might also be losing fuel - check tank & gascolator drains under pressure, perhaps through the poorly sealed caps. Seems to me you are being punished for flirting with a Rocket! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. c om/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c o ntribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.