---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/02/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:41 AM - Re: Oxygen (az_gila) 2. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Oxygen (Tim Olson) 3. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: Oxygen (Charles Kuss) 4. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Oxygen (Tim Olson) 5. 07:11 PM - converting an RV to LSA (rv6n@optonline.net) 6. 07:33 PM - Re: converting an RV to LSA (MacDonald Doug) 7. 08:23 PM - Re: converting an RV to LSA (scott bilinski) 8. 08:24 PM - Re: converting an RV to LSA (Charlie England) 9. 08:32 PM - Re: converting an RV to LSA (Sam Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:16 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Oxygen From: "az_gila" Bruce(at)Glasair.org wrote: > SCUBA is compressed air, NOT O2. > > Bruce > WWW.Glasair.org > > -- True for "scuba", but they do use other gas combinations. In Tucson, they seem to be the only place - other than the expen$ive FBOs - that will refill my tank. A lot of the industrial/medical gas places only want to swap bottles, not actually refill yours. Try your local dive shop for Oxygen tank refills. And interestingly, they even said their bottles are labeled "Aviators Breathing Oxygen". Prices quoted were very reasonable and they could even get my old bottle hydro tested for $20 or so. As a glider pilot though, I've had Oxygen refills from many sites in the West, and they all use welding oxygen. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242406#242406 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:04 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Oxygen That's very true. I used to use Heilum/Air for very deep dives, Air for "plain old deep", 40% O2 for deeper decompression stops, 100% O2 for 20' or less decompression stops. We filled all of those gasses at my scuba shop. Back in those years, SCUBA divers doing these technical mixed gas dives were just as if not MORE concerned for the air purity as pilots need to be. For one, at depths in Lake Superior and due to high expansion cooling rates, the O2 needed to be very dry to prevent icing inside the regulators. Additionally, due to the way gasses affect your body according to the gas partial pressures, CO, or CO2 would have a much more magnified effect on your body at depth than at the surface...and the same goes for altitude. The less pressure you're under the less the effect of the gas, with the exception that if you're flying you need to make sure you have ENOUGH O2 partial pressure, which is why we breathe the supplemental Oxygen while flying. For SCUBA we had to make sure we REDUCED the percentage (thus reducing the partial pressure) as we went deeper, due to the negative effects of O2 at deep depths. (Even Air at 300' can kill you pretty quickly.) For Hydro tests we used to work with local welding and Fire Extinguisher companies because they had the best pricing to get any cylinder tested. Welders are also very concerned with purity of gasses or their welds will be contaminated or weak. So everyone has a huge concern for gas purity. Thay may have been why they decided to go to single-source filling. Like I said before though, there are some situations where they will pull a vacuum on a cylinder before filling it, to empty it first. So they may do this for some medical/aviation O2, hence that may be why they just want to swap you. But, if you're always filling it with pure O2 you have no worries. Additionally, one thing you should try to do is never run your bottle completely empty. Keeping 100psi in it at all times will ensure that no contamination gets in. Lots of cool things to do both above and below the earth's surface. It's usually made even more fun and safe by breathing various alternative mixes of Air/O2. Just as they say that flying over 5,000-10,000' on O2 makes you arrive more refreshed and all that jazz, the same goes for doing a 60' dive breathing gas mixes of 36% O2. Lots of benefits for both sports. If you're into SCUBA diving, one nice thing you can do for yourself is investigate Nitrox diving. It's a great way to add safety margin to your bottom times, and to have a more enjoyable experience. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive az_gila wrote: > > > Bruce(at)Glasair.org wrote: >> SCUBA is compressed air, NOT O2. >> >> Bruce WWW.Glasair.org >> >> -- > > > True for "scuba", but they do use other gas combinations. > > In Tucson, they seem to be the only place - other than the expen$ive > FBOs - that will refill my tank. A lot of the industrial/medical gas > places only want to swap bottles, not actually refill yours. > > Try your local dive shop for Oxygen tank refills. > > And interestingly, they even said their bottles are labeled "Aviators > Breathing Oxygen". Prices quoted were very reasonable and they could > even get my old bottle hydro tested for $20 or so. > > As a glider pilot though, I've had Oxygen refills from many sites in > the West, and they all use welding oxygen. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242406#242406 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:51 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Oxygen Tim, Interesting idea on evacuating the oxygen tank prior to filling it. As the owner of an auto repair shop, I have a vacuum pump (for working on air conditioning systems) I'm sure I could rig up an adapter to draw most of the air out of my cylinders prior to filling them myself. Thanks for the idea and the excellent post. Charlie Kuss snipped > So everyone has a huge concern for gas purity. Thay > may have been why they decided to go to single-source > filling. Like I said before though, there are some > situations where they will pull a vacuum on a cylinder > before filling it, to empty it first. So they may do > this for some medical/aviation O2, hence that may be > why they just want to swap you. But, if you're > always filling it with pure O2 you have no worries. snipped > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > do not archive > > > az_gila wrote: > > > > > > > Bruce(at)Glasair.org wrote: > >> SCUBA is compressed air, NOT O2. > >> > >> Bruce WWW.Glasair.org > >> > >> -- > > > > > > True for "scuba", but they do use other gas > combinations. > > > > In Tucson, they seem to be the only place - other than > the expen$ive > > FBOs - that will refill my tank. A lot of the > industrial/medical gas > > places only want to swap bottles, not actually refill > yours. > > > > Try your local dive shop for Oxygen tank refills. > > > > And interestingly, they even said their bottles are > labeled "Aviators > > Breathing Oxygen". Prices quoted were very > reasonable and they could > > even get my old bottle hydro tested for $20 or so. > > > > As a glider pilot though, I've had Oxygen refills > from many sites in > > the West, and they all use welding oxygen. > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242406#242406 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:18 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Oxygen That's great! Just avoid any oil lubed vac pumps that could leave oil in them. But, once you've pulled the vacuum once I wouldn't bother in the future. Tim On May 2, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Charles Kuss wrote: > > > Tim, > Interesting idea on evacuating the oxygen tank prior to filling it. > As the owner of an auto repair shop, I have a vacuum pump (for > working on air conditioning systems) I'm sure I could rig up an > adapter to draw most of the air out of my cylinders prior to filling > them myself. Thanks for the idea and the excellent post. > Charlie Kuss > > > snipped > >> So everyone has a huge concern for gas purity. Thay >> may have been why they decided to go to single-source >> filling. Like I said before though, there are some >> situations where they will pull a vacuum on a cylinder >> before filling it, to empty it first. So they may do >> this for some medical/aviation O2, hence that may be >> why they just want to swap you. But, if you're >> always filling it with pure O2 you have no worries. > snipped >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD >> do not archive >> >> >> az_gila wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Bruce(at)Glasair.org wrote: >>>> SCUBA is compressed air, NOT O2. >>>> >>>> Bruce WWW.Glasair.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> >>> True for "scuba", but they do use other gas >> combinations. >>> >>> In Tucson, they seem to be the only place - other than >> the expen$ive >>> FBOs - that will refill my tank. A lot of the >> industrial/medical gas >>> places only want to swap bottles, not actually refill >> yours. >>> >>> Try your local dive shop for Oxygen tank refills. >>> >>> And interestingly, they even said their bottles are >> labeled "Aviators >>> Breathing Oxygen". Prices quoted were very >> reasonable and they could >>> even get my old bottle hydro tested for $20 or so. >>> >>> As a glider pilot though, I've had Oxygen refills >> from many sites in >>> the West, and they all use welding oxygen. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242406#242406 >>> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:32 PM PST US From: rv6n@optonline.net Subject: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA Dear RVers This might sound ridiculous but does anyone know if it is possible to co nvert a registered RV6 to fly within the LSA guidelines=3F I know it mi ght take mountains of changes but I am just wondering if it is at all po ssible=2E Some of the obstacles to overcome would include addressing th e the weight=2C I think that might be possible by stripping out all the niceties and getting back to only what is basic=2E Another way to reduc e the weight is by doing what one of the LSA companies do which is to ju st say that the baggage capacity is now only xx instead of what it is ac tually capable of=2E The next concern is speed at full power=2E With t he existing O-360 this might be difficult=2E One LSA company uses a gro und adjustable prop to limit the max speed of their airplane=2C so I am sure that would help=2E Eliminating the good looking wheel pants could add some drag too=2E Some props have RPM restrictions which must be adhe red to willingly=2E Can the operating limitations specify a maximum spe ed of 120 kts or an RPM that limits the speed to 120 kts=2E Some LSAs h ave a higher RPM for a maximum number of minutes for take-off and then a reduced RPM thereafter=2E How could the clean stall speed be reduced t o 52 MPH=3F Would the lighter weight and maybe some vortex generators a ccomplish that=3F From what I have read=2C no plane can be flown as an LSA unless it has always been able to fly within the parameters of one=2C so=2C is it possible to de-register my RV6=2C surrender the data plate and re-register it as a plane that is capable of flying within the LSA p arameters=2E Maybe I am crazy for wondering about this but I am not interested in bui lding another plane =2Cthe market has been too soft for selling at a rea sonable price and I don=27t want to spend =24125=2C000 for an LSA=2E I am sure I am not the only one with a medical problem that has wondered t his=2C so is this doable or just a foolish wish=2E Bob ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:05 PM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA Bob, I'm no expert (being from Canada ie:no LSA here) but from what I understand, once an aircraft has had a registered gross weight of over 1320 lbs, it can never be an LSA no matter what you do to it. Building a new RV, it might be possible but not likely doable with a already built aircraft. Doug MacDonald NW Ontario, Canada RV-4 dreamer Do Not Archive --- On Sat, 5/2/09, rv6n@optonline.net wrote: > From: rv6n@optonline.net > Subject: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA > To: "rv-list@matronics.com" > Received: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 9:08 PM > Dear RVers > > This might sound ridiculous but does anyone know if it is > possible to convert a registered RV6 to fly within the LSA > guidelines? I know it might take mountains of changes but I > am just wondering if it is at all possible. Some of the > obstacles to overcome would include addressing the the > weight, I think that might be possible by stripping out all > the niceties and getting back to only what is basic. > Another way to reduce the weight is by doing what one of the > LSA companies do which is to just say that the baggage > capacity is now only xx instead of what it is actually > capable of. The next concern is speed at full power. With > the existing O-360 this might be difficult. One LSA company > uses a ground adjustable prop to limit the max speed of > their airplane, so I am sure that would help. Eliminating > the good looking wheel pants could add some drag too. Some > props have RPM restrictions which must be adhered to > willingly. Can the operating limitations specify a maximum > speed of 120 kts or an RPM that limits the speed to 120 kts. > Some LSAs have a higher RPM for a maximum number of minutes > for take-off and then a reduced RPM thereafter. How could > the clean stall speed be reduced to 52 MPH? Would the > lighter weight and maybe some vortex generators accomplish > that? From what I have read, no plane can be flown as an > LSA unless it has always been able to fly within the > parameters of one, so, is it possible to de-register my RV6, > surrender the data plate and re-register it as a plane that > is capable of flying within the LSA parameters. > > Maybe I am crazy for wondering about this but I am not > interested in building another plane ,the market has been > too soft for selling at a reasonable price and I don't > want to spend $125,000 for an LSA. I am sure I am not the > only one with a medical problem that has wondered this, so > is this doable or just a foolish wish. > > Bob __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:15 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA Convert it by selling it and building Van's light sport (RV12), and, have money left over! Scott --- On Sat, 5/2/09, rv6n@optonline.net wrote: > From: rv6n@optonline.net > Subject: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA > To: "rv-list@matronics.com" > Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 7:08 PM > > Dear RVers > > This might sound ridiculousbut does anyone know > if it is possible to convert a registered RV6 to fly within > the LSAguidelines? I know it might take > mountains of changes but I am just wondering if it is at all > possible. Some of the obstaclesto overcome > wouldinclude addressing the the weight, I think that > might be possible by stripping out all the niceties and > getting back to only what is basic. Another way to > reduce the weightis by doing what one of the > LSAcompanies do which is to just say that the baggage > capacity is now only xx instead of what it is actually > capable of. The next concern is speed at full > power. With the existing O-360 this might be > difficult. One LSAcompany uses a ground > adjustable prop to limit the max speed of their airplane, so > I am sure that would help. Eliminating the good > looking wheel pants could add some drag too. Some props have > RPM restrictions which must be adheredto > willingly. Can the operating limitations specify a > maximum speed of 120 ktsor an RPM that limits the > speed to 120 kts. Some LSAshave a higher RPM for > a maximum number of minutesfor take-off and then a > reduced RPM thereafter. How could the clean stall > speed be reduced to 52 MPH? Would the lighter weight > and maybe some vortex generators accomplish that? From > what I have read, no plane can be flown as an > LSAunless it has always been able to fly within the > parameters ofone, so, is it possible to de-register my > RV6, surrender the data plateand re-register it as a > plane that is capable of flying within the > LSAparameters. > > Maybe I am crazy for wondering about this but I am not > interested in building another plane ,the market has been > too soft for selling at a reasonable priceand I > don't want to spend $125,000 for an LSA. I am sure > I am not the only one with a medical problem that has > wondered this, so is this doableor just a foolish > wish. > > Bob > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:16 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA rv6n@optonline.net wrote: > Dear RVers > > This might sound ridiculous but does anyone know if it is possible to > convert a registered RV6 to fly within the LSA guidelines? I know it > might take mountains of changes but I am just wondering if it is at > all possible. Some of the obstacles to overcome would include > addressing the the weight, I think that might be possible by stripping > out all the niceties and getting back to only what is basic. Another > way to reduce the weight is by doing what one of the LSA companies do > which is to just say that the baggage capacity is now only xx instead > of what it is actually capable of. The next concern is speed at full > power. With the existing O-360 this might be difficult. One > LSA company uses a ground adjustable prop to limit the max speed of > their airplane, so I am sure that would help. Eliminating the good > looking wheel pants could add some drag too. Some props have RPM > restrictions which must be adhered to willingly. Can the operating > limitations specify a maximum speed of 120 kts or an RPM that limits > the speed to 120 kts. Some LSAs have a higher RPM for a maximum > number of minutes for take-off and then a reduced RPM thereafter. How > could the clean stall speed be reduced to 52 MPH? Would the lighter > weight and maybe some vortex generators accomplish that? From what I > have read, no plane can be flown as an LSA unless it has always been > able to fly within the parameters of one, so, is it possible to > de-register my RV6, surrender the data plate and re-register it as a > plane that is capable of flying within the LSA parameters. > > Maybe I am crazy for wondering about this but I am not interested in > building another plane ,the market has been too soft for selling at a > reasonable price and I don't want to spend $125,000 for an LSA. I am > sure I am not the only one with a medical problem that has wondered > this, so is this doable or just a foolish wish. > > Bob Bob, I think it will be pretty much impossible to achieve LSA requirements for a lot of different reasons (most already mentioned), but it has been done a couple of times with new-registration RV-9's. Charlie ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:39 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: converting an RV to LSA MacDonald Doug wrote: > > > Bob, I'm no expert (being from Canada ie:no LSA here) but from what I > understand, once an aircraft has had a registered gross weight of > over 1320 lbs, it can never be an LSA no matter what you do to it. This is correct. 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