---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/05/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:10 AM - Re: RV-8 F-830C-1 Floor Stiffeners - When To Rivet... (Tracy Crook) 2. 10:10 AM - Re: RV-8 F-830C-1 Floor Stiffeners - When To Rivet... (Matt Dralle) 3. 10:28 AM - ROD END BEARING JAM NUT - Torque (Garey Wittich) 4. 10:44 AM - Heads Up On Wheel Pant Fiberglass Quality... (Matt Dralle) 5. 10:53 AM - Re: ROD END BEARING JAM NUT - Torque (Bruce Gray) 6. 01:52 PM - Re: Removing the nose gear wheel (Ian) 7. 02:03 PM - Re: Heads Up On Wheel Pant Fiberglass Quality... (Bruce Gray) 8. 03:40 PM - Engine cooling issues and the #3 cylinder (jhnstniii@aol.com) 9. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: RV-8 F-830C-1 Floor Stiffeners - When To Rivet... (Charlie England) 10. 08:00 PM - Re: Engine cooling issues and the #3 cylinder (Jerry Grimmonpre) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 F-830C-1 Floor Stiffeners - When To Rivet... From: Tracy Crook I found the suggested Van's procedure so 'un-likable' that I cut the floor skins that required it into two pieces and added necessary flanges & nutplates. I anticipated way too many occasions when I might need to have access. There have been several already and I haven't even flown the -8 yet. Tracy Crook ( getting ready to call DAR) On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Kevin Horton wrote: > > On 4 Jun 2009, at 21:24, Matt Dralle wrote: > >> >> In Section 8 of the builders manual (Page 8-50 for the 4/26/07 rev), >> Drawing 77, it appears that they are having you hold off riveting the floor >> stiffeners along the sides of the stick mount until *after* the floor skins >> are installed rather than before they are installed. Is this because >> there's no way you can get the floor skins into the right position once >> these stiffeners are riveted on? I'm referring to F-830C-1 Floor >> Stiffeners. >> >> That's kind of a bummer to have to try to rivet those after the skin is >> installed for obvious reasons, but begs a bigger question; what about down >> the road when you might have to remove the floor skins for some reason. Do >> you have to drill those stiffener rivets out too? Ugg... >> > > > Short version - Try inserting the floors with the stiffeners clecoed in > place, and the issues will immediately be apparent. > > Long version - My kit is a lot older than yours, but I think the issues are > similar. You need to push the floors outboard as you slip them in place, to > slide the outer edges of the floors between the angles that support them, > and the flanges on the 805 and 806 ribs on the fuselage sides. But, with > the stiffeners in place, the ends of the stiffeners straddle the floor ribs, > which prevents you from sliding the floors sideways. I wanted my floors to > be removable, so I trimmed the corners off the stiffeners, and the same on > the bottoms of the flanges on the 805 and 806 ribs on the fuselage sides. I > still have to utter a few choice words to wiggle them in and out of place, > but it is doable. > > -- > Kevin Horton (Grounded) > RV-8 (Flight Test Phase) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:17 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-8 F-830C-1 Floor Stiffeners - When To Rivet... At 10:24 PM 6/4/2009 Thursday, Vincent Himsl wrote: > > >I Pop riveted the floor as per plans. I also have nothing under them I need access too. You could use plate nuts in lieu of pop rivets, but at @ 20 minutes install time per plate nut you would need to remove the floors several times to offset the speed advantage of the Pop rivets. > > > >Vince H Thanks everybody for the feedback. Installing those two-legged nut plates are definitely a pain in the rear. What's everyone's opinion on using #6 AN Rivnuts instead ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/rivnuts.html )? Seems like the sheer and clamping strength of these has to be at least as good as those pop rivets? I used the #6 AN Rivnuts to attach the canopy and they are really nice, easy to install, and hold very well. I've attached a picture of them from my canopy frame for those that haven't see them before. Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Second Try On The Wheel Pants... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:10 AM PST US From: Garey Wittich Subject: RV-List: ROD END BEARING JAM NUT - Torque For you Experts: Installed the Rod End Bearings in the Rudder and Elevator today. -My loca l A & P said to tighten the Jam Nut by "Hand Tightening" the Jam Nut as far as it will go, then turn the nut between 1/4 and 1/2 turn more. I "hand tightened" the Jam Nut (as the A & P said), but could not get it to tighten more than an additional 1/8 turn, -Because the Jam Nut is recess ed (in the Spar channel), it is impossible to get a wrench "squarely" on it = any further tightening of the Nut starts to round the corners of the N ut. -Is this 1/8 turn adequate for the Jam Nut tightness, if NOT how do y ou turn the Nut (since it is recessed) ???? What Torque Value is required for the Jam Nut, assuming a Torque Wrench can get into the recessed area - do not see how this can be done. ANOTHER QUESTION -Have a "Click Type" torque wrench that starts at 20 in-lb s. -From previous posts, the FIRST 1/6 and the LAST 1/6 of the Wrench's s cale are inaccurate. -So how do you measure -"LOW VALUES" -for an AN3 Nut that requires 20 - 25 in/lbs plus Friction Torque of approx 5 in/lbs = 25 to 30 on/lbs TOTAL torque ?? Appreciate your help, Garey - Santa Monica, CA=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:31 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Heads Up On Wheel Pant Fiberglass Quality... Dear Listers, I took delivery of an RV-8 QB finish kit around September 2008. Last weekend I started tackling the installation of the wheel pants. The first thing I noticed on inspection of the wheel pants was how horrible the quality was. The front piece didn't fit the back piece and the flange shoulder on the back pieces were not straight. Getting a even an "okay" fit was nearly impossible. The other issue was the quality of the fiberglass itself. On the rear part of the back piece, the epoxy resin was completely spider-cracked on both sides and on both pants. It was nothing a few more coats of resin and a bunch of sanding couldn't fix, but who wants to do that? Needless to say, I was fairly demoralized by the fact that there was really no way I was going to be able to make them really fit together "perfect". But, I plowed ahead anyway and started trying to mount them to the Grove Airfoiled gear. I had a lot of trouble getting them to fit correctly onto the landing gear. The main issue seemed to be that they are too small at the bottom and don't fit over the brake caliper without touching. I kept thinking that I must just not have them in the correct position, so I kept hogging out a little more glass here and there with the Dremel tool until basically the holes were all too big (for the gear leg and for the wheel). I finally found a couple of builder web sites where others have had the same issue with the brake caliper interference and they added a 2.5" "blister" to pooch out over the area that rubs. But by this time it was too late for that first set of pants. But here's the interesting part. Since I had basically destroyed both of the original pants trying to get them to fit, I decided to just order up a replacement set, take a sedative, and start over again on the whole thing. The new wheel pants arrived from Van's yesterday. The difference in quality between these replacement units and the ones from last year is incredible! The seams are nearly perfect on the replacements and only required a bit of sanding on the front part to get a *perfect*, and I mean *perfect* fit between the front and back halves. The consistency of the fiberglass layups is 100% better on the new units, and that seam at the top was already so flat, I didn't even have to sand it down. There are no spider cracks in the glass anywhere. I haven't actually weighed them, but replacements feel like they might be somewhat lighter as well. Obviously Van's switched fiberglass vendors at some point in the last 10 months and the switch was well worth it. I've attached a couple of photos of the Circa September 2008 and Circa June 2009 sets I received. The only similarity is in the overall shape. FYI Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:57 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: ROD END BEARING JAM NUT - Torque Send your wrist out for calibration. (Sorry, I couldn't help it.) Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garey Wittich Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 1:26 PM Subject: RV-List: ROD END BEARING JAM NUT - Torque For you Experts: Installed the Rod End Bearings in the Rudder and Elevator today. My local A & P said to tighten the Jam Nut by "Hand Tightening" the Jam Nut as far as it will go, then turn the nut between 1/4 and 1/2 turn more. I "hand tightened" the Jam Nut (as the A & P said), but could not get it to tighten more than an additional 1/8 turn, Because the Jam Nut is recessed (in the Spar channel), it is impossible to get a wrench "squarely" on it = any further tightening of the Nut starts to round the corners of the Nut. Is this 1/8 turn adequate for the Jam Nut tightness, if NOT how do you turn the Nut (since it is recessed) ???? What Torque Value is required for the Jam Nut, assuming a Torque Wrench can get into the recessed area - do not see how this can be done. ANOTHER QUESTION - Have a "Click Type" torque wrench that starts at 20 in-lbs. From previous posts, the FIRST 1/6 and the LAST 1/6 of the Wrench's scale are inaccurate. So how do you measure "LOW VALUES" for an AN3 Nut that requires 20 - 25 in/lbs plus Friction Torque of approx 5 in/lbs = 25 to 30 on/lbs TOTAL torque ?? Appreciate your help, Garey Santa Monica, CA ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:09 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Removing the nose gear wheel From: Ian Get a long 2x4 and a short one or two. Use the short ones as a fulcrum point. Put the end of the long one under the nose-gear leg and slide in your short ones to lever against. Press down gently on the other end of the long 2x4 and put a weight on it to hold it in position. Just make sure it's good and stable. The soft lumber should be OK with the threads on the nose gear leg. Ahh, those physics classes forty-five years ago! Ian Brown Bromont Quebec RV-9A, 14.1 hours and climbing. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:55 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Heads Up On Wheel Pant Fiberglass Quality... Looks like the difference is vacuum bagging. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 1:43 PM Subject: RV-List: Heads Up On Wheel Pant Fiberglass Quality... Dear Listers, I took delivery of an RV-8 QB finish kit around September 2008. Last weekend I started tackling the installation of the wheel pants. The first thing I noticed on inspection of the wheel pants was how horrible the quality was. The front piece didn't fit the back piece and the flange shoulder on the back pieces were not straight. Getting a even an "okay" fit was nearly impossible. The other issue was the quality of the fiberglass itself. On the rear part of the back piece, the epoxy resin was completely spider-cracked on both sides and on both pants. It was nothing a few more coats of resin and a bunch of sanding couldn't fix, but who wants to do that? Needless to say, I was fairly demoralized by the fact that there was really no way I was going to be able to make them really fit together "perfect". But, I plowed ahead anyway and started trying to mount them to the Grove Airfoiled gear. I had a lot of trouble getting them to fit correctly onto the landing gear. The main issue seemed to be that they are too small at the bottom and don't fit over the brake caliper without touching. I kept thinking that I must just not have them in the correct position, so I kept hogging out a little more glass here and there with the Dremel tool until basically the holes were all too big (for the gear leg and for the wheel). I finally found a couple of builder web sites where others have had the same issue with the brake caliper interference and they added a 2.5" "blister" to pooch out over the area that rubs. But by this time it was too late for that first set of pants. But here's the interesting part. Since I had basically destroyed both of the original pants trying to get them to fit, I decided to just order up a replacement set, take a sedative, and start over again on the whole thing. The new wheel pants arrived from Van's yesterday. The difference in quality between these replacement units and the ones from last year is incredible! The seams are nearly perfect on the replacements and only required a bit of sanding on the front part to get a *perfect*, and I mean *perfect* fit between the front and back halves. The consistency of the fiberglass layups is 100% better on the new units, and that seam at the top was already so flat, I didn't even have to sand it down. There are no spider cracks in the glass anywhere. I haven't actually weighed them, but replacements feel like they might be somewhat lighter as well. Obviously Van's switched fiberglass vendors at some point in the last 10 months and the switch was well worth it. I've attached a couple of photos of the Circa September 2008 and Circa June 2009 sets I received. The only similarity is in the overall shape. FYI Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:49 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Engine cooling issues and the #3 cylinder From: jhnstniii@aol.com Listers--Thought I would pass along a solution I haven't seen before on the list for the problem of the #3 cylinder running warm.? Others have mentioned putting a washer behind the back baffle.? We did that with little improvement.? Then I realized we had glassed in our upper inlet ramps nice and symmetrically, but the engine is not symmetrical.? The right bank of cylinders is forward of the left bank.? If you glass in the upper inlet ramps symmetrically?you will be "pinching" the airflow on the right side because the #1 cylinder is so far forward and there is a steep?bottom?ramp on the right side.? If you put your hand in each of your inlets you will probably notice how much more room there is on the left side v. the right side.? I could just get my hand through on the right side on ours.?? This restriction was what was causing the #3 to run hot. I cut out and re-glassed the right upper ramp about 1 1/2 inches forward, so that the right upper ramp and right lower ramp surfaces were more parallel with no pinching of the airflow.???Voila--the two rear cylinders now run even with the #3 much cooler than before.??I can stick my hand right through there now. ? Hope this helps.? I called Vans and suggested they mention this in the instructions and plans.? LeRoy Johnston/David White (Ohio) RV-6A "Esperanza" 172 hours flying. .?? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:22 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: RV-8 F-830C-1 Floor Stiffeners - When To Rivet... Matt Dralle wrote: > At 10:24 PM 6/4/2009 Thursday, Vincent Himsl wrote: > >> >> >> I Pop riveted the floor as per plans. I also have nothing under them I need access too. You could use plate nuts in lieu of pop rivets, but at @ 20 minutes install time per plate nut you would need to remove the floors several times to offset the speed advantage of the Pop rivets. >> >> >> >> Vince H >> > > > Thanks everybody for the feedback. Installing those two-legged nut plates are definitely a pain in the rear. What's everyone's opinion on using #6 AN Rivnuts instead ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/rivnuts.html )? Seems like the sheer and clamping strength of these has to be at least as good as those pop rivets? I used the #6 AN Rivnuts to attach the canopy and they are really nice, easy to install, and hold very well. I've attached a picture of them from my canopy frame for those that haven't see them before. > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > Second Try On The Wheel Pants... Matt, With unkeyed rivnuts set in sheet aluminum, it's not a question of *if* they will spin, but *when*. Think about the fun of drilling off the head of a steel screw that's spinning with the spinning rivnut when you make your decision. :-) I have a strong aversion to them; I'd rather drill out a few dozen aluminum pops than deal with a spinning rivnut. FWIW... Charlie ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:14 PM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine cooling issues and the #3 cylinder LeRoy ... Great story .... thank you for the observation/solution. Jerry do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: jhnstniii@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 5:38 PM Subject: RV-List: Engine cooling issues and the #3 cylinder Listers--Thought I would pass along a solution I haven't seen before on the list for the problem of the #3 cylinder running warm. I cut out and re-glassed the right upper ramp about 1 1/2 inches forward, so that the right upper ramp and right lower ramp surfaces were more parallel with no pinching of the airflow. Voila--the two rear cylinders now run even with the #3 much cooler than before. I can stick my hand right through there now. Hope this helps. I called Vans and suggested they mention this in the instructions and plans. LeRoy Johnston/David White (Ohio) RV-6A "Esperanza" 172 hours flying. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.