Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:43 AM - Re: Nosewheel vibration update (Ed Anderson)
2. 05:19 AM - Loop problem (charlie heathco)
3. 06:56 AM - Re: Loop problem (Panama Red)
4. 07:42 AM - Re: Loop problem (Linn Walters)
5. 08:09 AM - Re: Nosewheel vibration update (Brian Meyette)
6. 08:43 AM - Nosewheel Vibration (rveighta@comcast.net)
7. 08:56 AM - Re: Loop problem (David Leonard)
8. 09:13 AM - Re: Nosewheel vibration update (BELTEDAIR@aol.com)
9. 09:30 AM - Re: Loop problem (John Danielson)
10. 10:26 AM - Re: Loop problem (Sam Buchanan)
11. 12:19 PM - Re: Loop problem (scott bilinski)
12. 01:55 PM - Re: Loop problem (Sam Buchanan)
13. 01:56 PM - Re: Loop problem (Panama Red)
14. 02:26 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (jvanlaak@aol.com)
15. 02:47 PM - emergency extrication (Linn Walters)
16. 03:18 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Linn Walters)
17. 03:24 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Sam Buchanan)
18. 03:46 PM - Re: email address (Sam Buchanan)
19. 03:46 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Mike Robertson)
20. 03:46 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Jerry Springer)
21. 04:20 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (RV6ator@aol.com)
22. 04:46 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (rveighta@comcast.net)
23. 04:46 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Sam Buchanan)
24. 05:17 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Terry Watson)
25. 05:17 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Don)
26. 05:17 PM - Re: Loop problem (Brian Meyette)
27. 05:18 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Brian Meyette)
28. 05:19 PM - RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend (rv6160hp@aol.com)
29. 05:34 PM - Re: RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend (Brian Meyette)
30. 06:42 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Tim Randles)
31. 06:49 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (George Steube)
32. 08:06 PM - Re: Fitting The Spinner To A Hartzell (steve)
33. 08:37 PM - Re: emergency extrication (David Leonard)
34. 08:56 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Mike Divan)
35. 10:25 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Mike Divan)
36. 10:56 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Vanremog@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Nosewheel vibration update |
David, I have not gone back to the beginning of the thread, so don't know
what you have tried. However, When I replaced the nose gear on my 98 RV-6A
for the beefier version Van offered back almost a decade ago, I notice a
strange vibration - it did not feel like a side to side shimmy, but a back
and forth type vibration. An observer noted the nose wheel appear to be
tucking rearward and then popping forward in small magnitude cycles. That
is what it felt like in the cockpit.
I placed wood stiffeners around the nose rod and fiberglass them in -
immediate this "tucking" sensation stopped.
My $0.02
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jhnstniii@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel vibration update
We balanced the mains and they are round--no improvement. They don't
vibrate. It is very obviously the nose wheel because we've taxied by with
one of us as observer at various speeds and with the stick in various
positions. The pant/wheel assembly is going up and down and you can feel it
in the cockpit. We have the bearing with the rubber seals that has to be
torqued to spec. Will check out the MATCO axle. Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
Sent: Sun, Aug 30, 2009 6:20 pm
Subject: RE: RV-List: Nosewheel vibration update
Two things to try:
1. Install the MATCO nose wheel axle. Here is the link:
<http://www.matcomfg.com/AXLEASSEMBLYA24125INCH-idv-3657-1.html>
http://www.matcomfg.com/AXLEASSEMBLYA24125INCH-idv-3657-1.html This allows
for the axle bolt to be fully tighten without too much pre-load on the
bearings. This help my 8A nose gear problem.
2. Do the same balance on the main gear that you did on the nose gear.
I noted a significant improvement on the nose gear shimmy after I replace my
main gear.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (525 hrs)
RV-10 (fuselage)
From: <mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Orear
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel vibration update
This may seem rather rudimentary, but are you sure it is your nosewheel that
is shimmying? I thought I had a nosewheel shake as well until a local pilot
saw me land while waiting at the hold short line and reported that my left
main was the culprit. I suspect uneven tire wear, but balancing out the
wheel/tire resulted in some improvement. I plan to replace the main
tires/tubes at next conditional inspection.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Peshtigo, WI
On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, <mailto:jhnstniii@aol.com> jhnstniii@aol.com
wrote:
Listers--Promised I would report on our efforts to stop the vertical
vibration of our nosewheel/pant assembly. We started with the tire. We
bought a motorcycle wheel balancer (simple rod rolling on ball bearing
supports type) and immediately noticed the tire was quite out of round and
out of balance. We thought "problem solved" and bought a new tire. This one
was round. We added weights until it was balanced, and during taxi testing
were surprised to find there was no improvement. We then tried different
combinations of tire pressure and bearing torque (within the required
limits). The best was with very low tire pressure and medium torque, but we
still had the problem at 20 mph or more. So then we glassed a piece of wood
(with four layers of medium weight glass) on to the leg from the bend at the
bottom up to where it enters the cowling, hoping to change the vibration
characteristics. No improvemen t! I wonde r if a little lead in the nose or
tail of the pant might help (the pant is balanced fore and aft right now so
doing this would actually unbalance it). We are running out of ideas. One of
our hangar buddies was up at OSH watching the RVs taxi by for takeoff and he
said many of them had vibrating nosewheels. We have the new type nosewheel
fork. Don't know if there is a vibrational difference between this type and
the old type. Any ideas? Thanks. LeRoy Johnston and David White RV-6A N176LD
Esperanza 200+ hours flying.
href=" <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List>
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Message 2
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Late yesterday I finally got up courage to try a loop in my 6a,
stalledout just as was starting back down. Recovered strait down, no
problem. I wasn expecting that as I had succesfully looped cherokee
140's several time back in 68. I entered from a shallow dive at about
170 mph. Only thing I can think of was I didnt make it tight enuff. I
remmbered B F Billy demoing one with me in a 6a, and was very quick and
high G. Is that the key? Charlie H
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
Loop entry is not so much about speed as it is about Gs, I pull 3.5 to
4Gs at entry, going over the top I transition to 0Gs, float over the top
to get a round loop and then at the 270 degree of loop back to 3.5-4Gs
for pull out. 140 KTS is a good entry speed for my RV6, but I have done
them as slow as 125 KTS.
Doing acro in an RV, a necessary instrument is the G meter. It is real
easy to exceed the 6 G limit on the downside of many maneuvers, control
the speed with the G, control the G with speed. Avoid VNE at 6+Gs, no
good way out.
Bob
Late yesterday I finally got up courage to try a loop in my 6a,
stalledout just as was starting back down. Recovered strait down, no
problem. I wasn expecting that as I had succesfully looped cherokee
140's several time back in 68. I entered from a shallow dive at about
170 mph. Only thing I can think of was I didnt make it tight enuff. I
remmbered B F Billy demoing one with me in a 6a, and was very quick and
high G. Is that the key? Charlie H
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
I have no experience in looping a 6A, so I may be blowing smoke here.
There's a band of airspeed/G's that will get you a good loop. The entry
speed needs to be high enough to have the kinetic energy to get you over
the top with a little extra airspeed than you just had, but pulling more
Gs also scrubs off that kinetic energy. There's a fine balance there
that you may get from another aerobatically inclined pilot, or just keep
at it on your own. My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it
and not have it.
Linn
charlie heathco wrote:
> Late yesterday I finally got up courage to try a loop in my 6a,
> stalledout just as was starting back down. Recovered strait down, no
> problem. I wasn expecting that as I had succesfully looped cherokee
> 140's several time back in 68. I entered from a shallow dive at about
> 170 mph. Only thing I can think of was I didnt make it tight enuff. I
> remmbered B F Billy demoing one with me in a 6a, and was very quick and
> high G. Is that the key? Charlie H
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Nosewheel vibration update |
I saw a video somewhere that showed major nosewheel vibrations due the the
harmonics of the leg flexing. I believe he had put a camera so it focused
on the nose gear and the flex and vibration was considerable. It may have
been on u-tube. Seems your idea with the wood would have helped with that,
though.
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jhnstniii@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 2:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Nosewheel vibration update
Listers--Promised I would report on our efforts to stop the vertical
vibration of our nosewheel/pant assembly. We started with the tire. We
bought a motorcycle wheel balancer (simple rod rolling on ball bearing
supports type) and immediately noticed the tire was quite out of round and
out of balance. We thought "problem solved" and bought a new tire. This one
was round. We added weights until it was balanced, and during taxi testing
were surprised to find there was no improvement. We then tried different
combinations of tire pressure and bearing torque (within the required
limits). The best was with very low tire pressure and medium torque, but we
still had the problem at 20 mph or more. So then we glassed a piece of wood
(with four layers of medium weight glass) on to the leg from the bend at the
bottom up to where it enters the cowling, hoping to change the vibration
characteristics. No improvement! I wonde r if a little lead in the nose or
tail of the pant might help (the pant is balanced fore and aft right now so
doing this would actually unbalance it). We are running out of ideas. One of
our hangar buddies was up at OSH watching the RVs taxi by for takeoff and he
said many of them had vibrating nosewheels. We have the new type nosewheel
fork. Don't know if there is a vibrational difference between this type and
the old type. Any ideas? Thanks. LeRoy Johnston and David White RV-6A N176LD
Esperanza 200+ hours flying.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
06:36:00
Message 6
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| Subject: | Nosewheel Vibration |
I=C2- had pretty severe nosewheel vibration with my RV8A and managed to c
orrecct the problem by gradually tightning down tension
on the nose gear nut until it went away. Have you tried that?
Walt Shipley
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
I agree with Bob except that it it pretty easy to keep it to 3 to 3.5 G's.
Going to zero G's over the top is a nice touch, but not really necessary as
no one is usually watching anyway. But you do need to ease the pull over
the top as your airspeed will be very low. Either way, remember to NOT be
at low G's as you come down the back side or speed and G's will build up
quickly as you go through the bottom. (i.e. keep the pull going as you come
down the back side).
I use an entry of anything more than 140 KTS with full power, straight into
a 3 G pull easing to less than 1 G over the top, then throttle to idle and
build back to 3 G's out the bottom. Dont forget to add rudder on the way
up.
If you are going to do them with a passenger get good at the low G technique
first, because you will most likely be over the aerobatic weight limit.
There is no substitute for instruction, but it is really fun to perfect
these on you own.
Dave Leonard
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 7:03 AM, Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net> wrote:
> Loop entry is not so much about speed as it is about Gs, I pull 3.5 to
> 4Gs at entry, going over the top I transition to 0Gs, float over the top to
> get a round loop and then at the 270 degree of loop back to 3.5-4Gs for pull
> out. 140 KTS is a good entry speed for my RV6, but I have done them as
> slow as 125 KTS.
>
> Doing acro in an RV, a necessary instrument is the G meter. It is real
> easy to exceed the 6 G limit on the downside of many maneuvers, control the
> speed with the G, control the G with speed. Avoid VNE at 6+Gs, no good
> way out.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Late yesterday I finally got up courage to try a loop in my 6a, stalledout
> just as was starting back down. Recovered strait down, no problem. I wasn
> expecting that as I had succesfully looped cherokee 140's several time back
> in 68. I entered from a shallow dive at about 170 mph. Only thing I can
> think of was I didnt make it tight enuff. I remmbered B F Billy demoing one
> with me in a 6a, and was very quick and high G. Is that the key? Charlie H
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel vibration update |
We had the same problem and converted to a 6 still the problem, no one
could give us the heat treat specs. sort of dodge around. Our solution is
quite easy, determine where you would install the wood stiffiners. Order
aluminum tubing from Spruce that has the ID of the tube that closely matches your
gear OD. Anneal the aluminum tube, slide it over the gear leg. Form it
into a streamline shape, determine where it will align with your gear
fairings. Mix MetlWeld also from Spruce and pour it into the aluminum (now
streamlined) tube. Turn it over a few times to make sure you have epoxy all the
way
in contact with the main strut. Align it to where you want it, install a
fiberglass arrow shaft in the void, pour the rest with MetlWeld tape off the
bottom so it will not run out. Let it cure, if on the mains it was
recommend to us by Van's to have the weight off of the gear. We have had no
problem since and it is quite light and strong.
In a message dated 8/31/2009 8:11:14 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bmeyette@gmail.com writes:
I saw a video somewhere that showed major nosewheel vibrations due the the
harmonics of the leg flexing. I believe he had put a camera so it
focused on the nose gear and the flex and vibration was considerable. It may
have been on u-tube. Seems your idea with the wood would have helped with
that, though.
____________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jhnstniii@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 2:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Nosewheel vibration update
<WBR>Listers--Promised I would report on our efforts to stop the vertical
vibration of our nosewheel/pant assembly. We started with the tire. We
bought a motorcycle wheel balancer (simple rod rolling on ball bearing supports
type) and immediately noticed the tire was quite out of round and out of
bal We thought "problem solved" and bought a new tire. This one was round.
We added weights until it was balanced, and during taxi testing were
surprised to find there was no improvement. We then tried different combinations
of tire pressure and bearing torque (within the required limits). The best
was with very low tire pressure and medium torque, but we still had the
problem at 20 mph or more. So then we glassed a piece of wood (with four
layers of medium weight glass) on to the leg from the bend at the bottom up to
where it enters the cowling, hoping to change the vibration
characteristics. No improvement! I wonde r if a little lead in the nose or tail
of the
pant might help (the pant is balanced fore and aft right now so doing this
would actually unbalance it). We are running out of ideas. One of our hangar
buddies was up at OSH watching the RVs taxi by for takeoff and he said many
of them had vibrating nosewheels. We have the new type nosewheel fork.
Don't know if there is a vibrational difference between this type and the old
type. Any ideas? Thanks. LeRoy Johnston and David White RV-6A N176LD
Esperanza 200+ hours flying.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Checked 270.13.71/2334 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 9
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Get a G meter before trying any Acro.
3.5 to 4 G's on entry is good with an entry speed of 160 or 170mph.
I float over the top with 0G's and pull 3 to 3.5 G's coming out on the bott
om end.
Usually the problem is that your worried about pulling to many G's on entry
. This is why you need a G meter. And your again worried about the g's on t
he pull out.
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:19 AM
Subject: RV-List: Loop problem
Late yesterday I finally got up courage to try a loop in my 6a, stalledout
just as was starting back down. Recovered strait down, no problem. I wasn e
xpecting that as I had succesfully looped cherokee 140's several time back
in 68. I entered from a shallow dive at about 170 mph. Only thing I can thi
nk of was I didnt make it tight enuff. I remmbered B F Billy demoing one wi
th me in a 6a, and was very quick and high G. Is that the key? Charlie H
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
Linn Walters wrote:
<snip>
My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
> course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it
> and not have it.
> Linn
Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
Sam Buchanan
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
>From what I have read tells me you are not familiar with performing aerobat
ics and-I dont mean that as a put down. Get some basic training it will b
e the best money spent.
Scott
RV-8a
--- On Mon, 8/31/09, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
I have no experience in looping a 6A, so I may be blowing smoke here. There
's a band of airspeed/G's that will get you a good loop.- The entry speed
needs to be high enough to have the kinetic energy to get you over the top
with a little extra airspeed than you just had, but pulling more Gs also s
crubs off that kinetic energy.- There's a fine balance there that you may
get from another aerobatically inclined pilot, or just keep at it on your
own.- My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground in the flight en
velope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of course, wear a 'chute
.- Better to carry one and not need it than need it and not have it.
Linn
charlie heathco wrote:
> Late yesterday I finally got up courage to try a loop in my 6a, stalledou
t just as was starting back down. Recovered strait down, no problem. I wasn
expecting that as I had succesfully looped cherokee 140's several time bac
k in 68. I entered from a shallow dive at about 170 mph. Only thing I can t
hink of was I didnt make it tight enuff. I remmbered B F Billy demoing one
with me in a 6a, and was very quick and high G. Is that the key? Charlie H
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
<am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
Linn Walters wrote:
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>
>> Linn Walters wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
>>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and,
of course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need
it and not have it.
>>> Linn
>>
>>
>> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
> Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
> Linn
Linn,
There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may*
have worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic
assist (guess in an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it
would take off your head or the vertical stab as it departed the
plane....). But since mid-90's, the hydraulic struts have been shipped
with finish kits and would almost certainly prevent the canopy from
detaching as designed.
slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either
canopy open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed
up with difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than
12". In either case a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit
the aircraft. If a builder was serious about aerobatics quick-release
pins might be incorporated into the slider installation. Some have done
this with the RV-8.
As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out
of a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no
documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually
needed to use it. ;-)
Sam Buchanan
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal
flight beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a
retired USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated
you are!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you
more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail
out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of
what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in
an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the practicality
of?opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission of looping Cherokee
140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act).? Why has nobody commented
on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general, let alone in uncertified
airplanes?? Haven't we lost enough friends to such shenanegans?
I don't know?how many are?keeping track, but this has been a bad year for RV accidents.?
I?get to?see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source of concern
to me.? I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved
them all.? But self taught aerobatics, buzz jobs,?and other completely avoidable
accidents do all of?sport aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
?
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(?
>?
> Sam Buchanan?
?
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight beyond
about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired USAF F-4
Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you are!"?
?
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you more
time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail out. The IAC
requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of what I think
its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in an inverted flat
spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open the canopy.?
?
Bob?
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" ?
?
?
Message 15
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| Subject: | emergency extrication |
My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done it) is
probably going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that I never
thought about. It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in front of the
hangar!!! I suppose you could maneuver the airplane to decrease those
wind loads .... but if you can maneuver the airplane .... why leave it.
Well, if it's on fire ....
Linn
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
> <am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
>
> Linn Walters wrote:
> > Sam Buchanan wrote:
> >>
> >> Linn Walters wrote:
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> >> <snip>
> >> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
> >>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and,
> of course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need
> it and not have it.
> >>> Linn
> >>
> >>
> >> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
> :-(
> > Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
> > Linn
>
>
>
> Linn,
>
> There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
>
> tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may*
> have worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic
> assist (guess in an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it
> would take off your head or the vertical stab as it departed the
> plane....). But since mid-90's, the hydraulic struts have been shipped
> with finish kits and would almost certainly prevent the canopy from
> detaching as designed.
>
> slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
>
> The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either
> canopy open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed
> up with difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than
> 12". In either case a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit
> the aircraft. If a builder was serious about aerobatics quick-release
> pins might be incorporated into the slider installation. Some have done
> this with the RV-8.
>
> As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out
> of a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no
> documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
>
> A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually
> needed to use it. ;-)
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
jvanlaak@aol.com wrote:
> Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
> practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an
> admission of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright
> stupid act). Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught
> aerobatics in general, let alone in uncertified airplanes?
I caught the 140 comment too. I can't really comment on that because I
was guilty too. My first aerobatic airplane was a utility category
airplane .... with spins prohibited. I was young and foolish. Now I'm
a lot older and a little wiser .... and I've found that those that do as
I did ..... really don't care to listen so it's wasted breath.
Haven't we lost enough friends to such shenanegans?
I've lost quite a number of friends, most of them doing stupid pilot
tricks ..... and I don't have that many friends left. I'm just joining
this RV community and am adding to my friends list ..... but friend or
not, the loss of an aviator pains me.
>
> I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year
> for RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a
> source of concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2
> RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics,
> buzz jobs, and other completely avoidable accidents do all of sport
> aviation a big disservice.
Absolutely! And it leaves grieving families and friends behind and
increases the cost of flying for the rest of us. As for self taught, I
think it's a poor choice for entry into the aerobatics field ..... but
done with considerable planning .... and most importantly considerable
altitude ..... it is survivable. Just this past week we lost Vicki
Cruse, a highly capable aerobatic pilot and IAC president. If the best
can't survive, where do the 'weekend warrior' aerobatic pilots fit in???
Linn
do not archive
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
jvanlaak@aol.com wrote:
> Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
> practicality of?opening the canopy when the thread began with an
> admission of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright
> stupid act).? Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught
> aerobatics in general, let alone in uncertified airplanes?? Haven't
> we lost enough friends to such shenanegans?
I was hoping the not-so-subtle underlying theme of my post about exiting
an RV would be the folly of self-taught aerobatics............
Sam Buchanan
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: email address |
Linn Walters wrote:
> That address shouldn't have bounced. Would you send me the bounce email???
> pitts_pilot has the underscore. didn't realize how that would look as
> an email link!!!
> Linn
>
Sorry listers, I've got to send this via the list since I can't send
Linn a message about his blocked email address because his email address
is........blocked!
Sam Buchanan
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
(reason: 521-216.180.54.11 is blocked domain (*))
Message 19
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
it may not be smart=2C it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the pract
icality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission of lo
oping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why has
nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general=2C let
alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such sh
enanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track=2C but this has been a bad year for
RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source o
f concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's=2C 2 RV-6's=2C an
d an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics=2C buzz jobs=2C
and other completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big dis
service.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon=2C Aug 31=2C 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you ar
e!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you m
ore time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail out
. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton=2C so I use one regardless of w
hat I think its usefullness might be. And who knows=2C if I loose control i
n an inverted flat spin and can't regain control=2C maybe I will be able to
open the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos.
http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
No one like to see anyone hurt or die in any airplane let alone RV's,
having said that what is your concern about the FAAs reaction. If you
take total hours flown per year
in RV's compared to other aircraft the accident rate pers hours flown is
not to bad. Of course any at all is bad, but I am basing this on your
comment.
jvanlaak@aol.com wrote:
> Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
> practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an
> admission of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright
> stupid act). Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught
> aerobatics in general, let alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we
> lost enough friends to such shenanegans?
>
> I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year
> for RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a
> source of concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2
> RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics,
> buzz jobs, and other completely avoidable accidents do all of sport
> aviation a big disservice.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
>
> <mailto:panamared505@brier.net>>
>
> > Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
> :-(
> >
> > Sam Buchanan
>
> I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal
> flight beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this
> to a retired USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how
> motivated you are!"
>
> But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give
> you more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you
> can bail out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one
> regardless of what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if
> I loose control in an inverted flat spin and can't regain control,
> maybe I will be able to open the canopy.
>
> Bob
> RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I
CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF
OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I
agree it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
____________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission of
looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why
has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general, let
alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such
shenanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year for
RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source of
concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an
RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other
completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
--> RV-List message posted by: "Panama Red" <_panamared505@brier.net_
(mailto:panamared505@brier.net) >
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
:-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal
flight beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a
retired USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
are!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you
more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail
out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of
what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in
an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution
____________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. _Click
here._ (http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Jeez, here we go again, off to the races!=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:10:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS=C2-SHO
ULD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT=C2-IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TI
ME=C2-I=C2-CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY,
KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE Y
OU HAVE CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>=C2-
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mrobert569
@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is=C2-illegal.=C2- Whi
le I agree it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
=C2-
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
=C2-
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the pract
icality of=C2-opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission
of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act).=C2
- Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in gen
eral, let alone in uncertified airplanes?=C2- Haven't we lost enough frie
nds to such shenanegans?
I don't know=C2-how many are=C2-keeping track, but this has been a bad
year for RV accidents.=C2- I=C2-get to=C2-see the FAA reaction and it
is becoming a source of concern to me.=C2- I have owned 5 RVs in my life
(2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved them all.=C2- But self taugh
t aerobatics, buzz jobs,=C2-and other completely avoidable accidents do a
ll of=C2-sport aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
-
=C2-
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
=C2-
>=C2-
> Sam Buchanan=C2-
=C2-
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you ar
e!"=C2-
=C2-
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you m
ore time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail out
. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of wha
t I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in an
inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
the canopy.=C2-
=C2-
Bob=C2-
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" =C2-
=C2-
=C2-
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contrib
ution
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click her
e. ========================
===========
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?RV-List ===================
================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =========
=
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
==
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
RV6ator@aol.com wrote:
> HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
> BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I
> CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF
> OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
> BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
There may be some members of this list who are not acquainted with Mike
Robertson. Mike is an employee of the FAA and has demonstrated many
times on this list his knowledge of the FARS.
Also, using all caps in an email message is generally frowned upon in
the internet community and often calls into question the credibility of
the poster.
Now back to your scheduled programming..... ;-)
Sam Buchanan
======================
>
> In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
>
> Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I
> agree it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
>
> Mike Robertson
> Das Fed
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
I predict you will regret both the remarks and the attitude. Just a
prediction.
Terry
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD BE
PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I CHECKED
A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT,
BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
_____
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission
of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why
has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general, let
alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such
shenanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year for RV
accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source of
concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an
RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other
completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
are!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you
more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail
out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of
what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in
an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
_____
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click
here. <http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery>
===================================
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
_____
Message 25
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Sam beat me to the punch. I will add another comment. Maybe you should just
go find another list.
Don Van Santen
RV&7 Flying
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD BE
PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I CHECKED
A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT,
BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
_____
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission
of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why
has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general, let
alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such
shenanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year for RV
accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source of
concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an
RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other
completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
are!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you
more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail
out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of
what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in
an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
_____
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click
here. <http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery>
===================================
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
_____
Message 26
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For that reason and because my tipup quick release bar was in the way of my
avionics, I used AN bolts instead of the sliding pins to hold my canopy
hinges.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
<am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
Linn Walters wrote:
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
Linn Walters wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
>>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it and
not have it.
>>> Linn
>>
>>
>> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
> Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
> Linn
Linn,
There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may* have
worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic assist (guess
in an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it would take off
your head or the vertical stab as it departed the plane....). But since
mid-90's, the hydraulic struts have been shipped with finish kits and would
almost certainly prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either canopy
open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed up with
difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than 12". In
either case a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit the
aircraft. If a builder was serious about aerobatics quick-release pins might
be incorporated into the slider installation. Some have done this with the
RV-8.
As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out of
a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no
documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually needed
to use it. ;-)
Sam Buchanan
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
05:50:00
Message 27
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
i think there are much more rational and polite ways to express yourself.
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD BE
PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I CHECKED
A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT,
BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
_____
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission
of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why
has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general, let
alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such
shenanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year for RV
accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source of
concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an
RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other
completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
are!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you
more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail
out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of
what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in
an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
_____
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click
<http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery> here.
===================================
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
_____
05:50:00
Message 28
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| Subject: | RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend |
EAA 486 at:
http://www.eaachapter486.com/
RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend.
I assume ya'll have heard and are informed.. but in case you haven't heard of this:
Highlights to include Mike Seager giving lessons in the Factory RV and the NE RV12
rep scheduled...
Read more at:
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=109
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=113&Itemid=110
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114&Itemid=113
Hope you can make it, pray for VFR and lots of planes!
Regards
David McManmon
RV6 builder flying-pilot.
Message 29
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| Subject: | RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend |
this is a nice event - I've been to it a couple times
brian
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv6160hp@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:11 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend
EAA 486 at:
http://www.eaachapter486.com/
RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend.
I assume ya'll have heard and are informed.. but in case you haven't heard
of this:
Highlights to include Mike Seager giving lessons in the Factory RV and the
NE RV12 rep scheduled...
Read more at:
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98
&Itemid=109
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11
3&Itemid=110
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11
4&Itemid=113
Hope you can make it, pray for VFR and lots of planes!
Regards
David McManmon
RV6 builder flying-pilot.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
05:50:00
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Revoke posting privileges, delete account, kthx.
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 7:10 PM, <RV6ator@aol.com> wrote:
> HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
> BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST
> TIME I CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK
> YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE
> CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
> In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
>
> Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
> it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
>
> Mike Robertson
> Das Fed
>
> ------------------------------
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:14:11 -0400
> From: jvanlaak@aol.com
>
> Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
> practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission
> of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why
> has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general, let
> alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such
> shenanegans?
>
> I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad year for
> RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source of
> concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an
> RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other
> completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big disservice.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
>
>
> > Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
> >
> > Sam Buchanan
>
> I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
> beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
> USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
> are!"
>
> But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you
> more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail
> out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one regardless of
> what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I loose control in
> an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will be able to open
> the canopy.
>
> Bob
> RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
>
>
> *
>
> p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
> With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click
> here. <http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery>
>
> *
>
> ===================================
> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> ====================================ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
When you speak with apparent authority the wrath of the list is your
problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
RV6ator@aol.com wrote:
> HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
> BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I
> CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK
YOURSELF
> OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE
CRASHED AND
> BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
There may be some members of this list who are not acquainted with Mike
Robertson. Mike is an employee of the FAA and has demonstrated many
times on this list his knowledge of the FARS.
Also, using all caps in an email message is generally frowned upon in
the internet community and often calls into question the credibility of
the poster.
Now back to your scheduled programming..... ;-)
Sam Buchanan
======================
>
> In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
>
> Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I
> agree it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
>
> Mike Robertson
> Das Fed
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Fitting The Spinner To A Hartzell |
Hi Matt,
1/4"- ain't bad.- Go fly.- It's all good.
--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com> wrote:
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: RV-List: Fitting The Spinner To A Hartzell
Listers,
Hartzell recommends a minimum .1" clearance around the prop blade for the s
pinner.- I did that exactly, but the prop would still bang on the spinner
at full pitch.- I had to hog out to .25" to keep the clearance at .1" at
full pitch.- It looked stupid having such a large gap in one area only s
o I evened it up to .25" all the way around.- But now it kind of looks li
ke I made the holes too big.- I just can't recall seeing other installati
ons to know if my .25" is "too much".- Anyone have any pics or thoughts o
n the clearance using late-model Van's CS spinner and a Hartzell, particula
rly the 72" paddle blades I've got?
Thanks!
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mykitlog.com/dralle
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the aircraft, it is
probably not in normal forward flight. It may be the case that falling
condition alters the aerodynamic forces such that opening either canopy may
be possible. The aft CG stall in particular comes to mind. Point is... at
least give it a try - Oh, and that parachute may have been worth while after
all. (Though I admit that I don't wear one.)
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
> My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
> Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done it) is
> probably going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that I never
> thought about. It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in front of the
> hangar!!! I suppose you could maneuver the airplane to decrease those wind
> loads .... but if you can maneuver the airplane .... why leave it. Well, if
> it's on fire ....
> Linn
>
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>>
>> <am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
>>
>> Linn Walters wrote:
>> > Sam Buchanan wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Linn Walters wrote:
>> pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>> >> <snip>
>> >> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
>> >>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
>> course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it and
>> not have it.
>> >>> Linn
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
>> :-(
>> > Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
>> > Linn
>>
>>
>>
>> Linn,
>>
>> There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
>>
>> tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may* have
>> worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic assist (guess
>> in an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it would take off
>> your head or the vertical stab as it departed the plane....). But since
>> mid-90's, the hydraulic struts have been shipped with finish kits and would
>> almost certainly prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
>>
>> slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
>>
>> The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either
>> canopy open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed up
>> with difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than 12". In
>> either case a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit the
>> aircraft. If a builder was serious about aerobatics quick-release pins might
>> be incorporated into the slider installation. Some have done this with the
>> RV-8.
>>
>> As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out
>> of a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no
>> documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
>>
>> A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually
>> needed to use it. ;-)
>>
>> Sam Buchanan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Yep I am sure someone learned something from that post ... like ... O ... I don't
know ... how about ... you have bad people skills at best and you are a jerk
(to put it mildly) at worst.
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that guarantee
your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
________________________________
From: "RV6ator@aol.com" <RV6ator@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:10:43 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC
MANUEVERS SHOULD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR
AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR
AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF
ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS
ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me
> in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
> it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
>
>Mike Robertson
>Das
> Fed
>
>________________________________
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest
> of the story.
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:14:11 -0400
>From:
> jvanlaak@aol.com
>
>
>Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
> practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an
> admission of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid
> act). Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics
> in general, let alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough
> friends to such shenanegans?
>
>I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a
> bad year for RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and
> it is becoming a source of concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life
> (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught
> aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other completely avoidable accidents do all
> of sport aviation a big disservice.
>
>
>-----Original
> Message-----
>From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
>To:
> rv-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
>Subject: Re:
> RV-List: Loop problem
>
>
>--> RV-List message
> posted by: "Panama Red" <panamared505@brier.net>
>
>>
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
> :-(
>>
>> Sam Buchanan
>
>I have often
> thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight beyond about
2
> inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired USAF F-4 Driver
> and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
> are!"
>
>But the caution about having plenty of altitude is
> good. It will give you more time to try and regain control even if you don't
> think you can bail out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use
> one regardless of what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I
> loose control in an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will
> be able to open the canopy.
>
>Bob
>RV6 "Wicked Witch
> of the West"
>
>
>
>
>p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution
>
>________________________________
> With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click
> here.
>
>
>===================================
>="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List===================================
>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>===================================
>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution===================================
>
>
________________________________
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
I seem to remember some dude doing a bunch of "aerobatic Maneuver's" in an Aero
Commander. Now is a Aero Commander "certified for aerobatics"? Now what was his
name ... O yea BOB HOVER. Would you call him a "DW" or a "Adam Henry"? I would
call him one of the greatest pilots I have had the pleasure of watching perform.
As for Charlie
Sorry you got such a phyco response to your question. It might be a good idea to
get some lessons from a pro when learning about aerobatics in anything (you
actually loped a 140 - yikes). I get lessons for spins, rolls and ... well that
is about as far as I have gone so far and it will be a long time before I do
them alone. I want to make sure I do not end up a statistic and that I understand
and can recover from any mistakes. With me and the instructor we depart with
minimum fuel to stay below the weight limit but I do not last long any way.
So far it has not been the fuel that ended the lessons it is my ability to get
motion sick real fast :) ALTHOUGH I last a little longer each time and it is
a blast even if I do end up a little on the green side every time.
Have fun but for heaven sake be safe.
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that guarantee
your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
________________________________
From: "RV6ator@aol.com" <RV6ator@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:10:43 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC
MANUEVERS SHOULD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR
AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR
AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF
ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS
ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me
> in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
> it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
>
>Mike Robertson
>Das
> Fed
>
>________________________________
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest
> of the story.
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:14:11 -0400
>From:
> jvanlaak@aol.com
>
>
>Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the
> practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an
> admission of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid
> act). Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics
> in general, let alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough
> friends to such shenanegans?
>
>I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a
> bad year for RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and
> it is becoming a source of concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life
> (2 RV-3's, 2 RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught
> aerobatics, buzz jobs, and other completely avoidable accidents do all
> of sport aviation a big disservice.
>
>
>-----Original
> Message-----
>From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
>To:
> rv-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
>Subject: Re:
> RV-List: Loop problem
>
>
>--> RV-List message
> posted by: "Panama Red" <panamared505@brier.net>
>
>>
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
> :-(
>>
>> Sam Buchanan
>
>I have often
> thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight beyond about
2
> inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired USAF F-4 Driver
> and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you
> are!"
>
>But the caution about having plenty of altitude is
> good. It will give you more time to try and regain control even if you don't
> think you can bail out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use
> one regardless of what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I
> loose control in an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I will
> be able to open the canopy.
>
>Bob
>RV6 "Wicked Witch
> of the West"
>
>
>
>
>p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution
>
>________________________________
> With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click
> here.
>
>
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________________________________
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
WTF?
Please go back on your medications.
-N1GV (non-psycho RV-6A driver)
In a message dated 8/31/2009 4:21:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
RV6ator@aol.com writes:
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I
CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF
OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
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