Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:43 AM - Re: Loop problem (charlie heathco)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (charlie heathco)
3. 07:44 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Mike Robertson)
4. 08:10 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Bill Boyd)
5. 08:42 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (SteinAir, Inc.)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Panama Red)
7. 09:39 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (RV6ator@aol.com)
8. 09:40 AM - Re: Looping Cherokees and RV parachutes (Brian Von Bevern)
9. 09:40 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Mike Robertson)
10. 10:14 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Linn Walters)
11. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Flying over water (Matt Redmond)
12. 11:14 AM - Re: emergency extrication (Mike Divan)
13. 04:17 PM - Re: emergency extrication (Hadley Heinrichs)
14. 04:35 PM - Re: emergency extrication (Robin Marks)
15. 04:37 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Mike Divan)
16. 04:41 PM - Re: emergency extrication (rveighta@comcast.net)
17. 05:16 PM - Re: emergency extrication (Brian Huffaker)
18. 05:47 PM - Re: emergency extrication (cecilth@juno.com)
19. 05:47 PM - Re: emergency extrication (cecilth@juno.com)
20. 05:47 PM - Re: emergency extrication (jvanlaak@aol.com)
21. 06:07 PM - Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage (Louis Willig)
22. 07:39 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Vanremog@aol.com)
23. 11:06 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
24. 11:17 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem |
Yes Sam I agree, Parachute would note be of any use. When I first got my 6a
I forgot to t latch the canopy a few times and had to pull full flaps and
slw to near stall to be able to move the canopy enuf to latch. I had always
thought that it could not be opened if ypou had to try to et out in flight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 12:25
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
Linn Walters wrote:
<snip>
My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
> course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it
> and not have it.
> Linn
Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
Sam Buchanan
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Hey, Forget this whole thing!!! No reason to act like or speak like
this!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: RV6ator@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 18:10
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS
SHOULD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST
TIME I CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY,
KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE
YOU HAVE CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While
I agree it may not be smart, it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:14:11 -0400
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to
the practicality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an
admission of looping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright
stupid act). Why has nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught
aerobatics in general, let alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we
lost enough friends to such shenanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track, but this has been a bad
year for RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming
a source of concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's, 2
RV-6's, and an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics,
buzz jobs, and other completely avoidable accidents do all of sport
aviation a big disservice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the
RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal
flight beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to
a retired USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how
motivated you are!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will
give you more time to try and regain control even if you don't think you
can bail out. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton, so I use one
regardless of what I think its usefullness might be. And who knows, if I
loose control in an inverted flat spin and can't regain control, maybe I
will be able to open the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
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Click here.
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/
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ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Excuse me but when did I ever call anyone a name. And you will also note I
did not say whether I or anyone else should do it=2C just whether it was le
gal. I do not endorse or recommend anyone doing any aerobatics without tra
ining=2C even in an RV6ator=2C but if I tried to take them to task I would
have a very rough time.
Mike Robertson
Federal Asshole please
From: RV6ator@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED=2C A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER=2C AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOU
LD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS=2C LAST TIME I
CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY=2C KNOCK YOURS
ELF OUT=2C BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CR
ASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C mrobert5
69@hotmail.com writes:
Show me in the regs where looping a Cherokee 140 is illegal. While I agree
it may not be smart=2C it is not illegal.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
From: jvanlaak@aol.com
Interesting to note the way this discussion has wended its way to the pract
icality of opening the canopy when the thread began with an admission of lo
oping Cherokee 140's (a totally illegal and downright stupid act). Why has
nobody commented on the wisdom of self-taught aerobatics in general=2C let
alone in uncertified airplanes? Haven't we lost enough friends to such sh
enanegans?
I don't know how many are keeping track=2C but this has been a bad year for
RV accidents. I get to see the FAA reaction and it is becoming a source o
f concern to me. I have owned 5 RVs in my life (2 RV-3's=2C 2 RV-6's=2C an
d an RV-4) and loved them all. But self taught aerobatics=2C buzz jobs=2C
and other completely avoidable accidents do all of sport aviation a big dis
service.
-----Original Message-----
From: Panama Red <panamared505@brier.net>
Sent: Mon=2C Aug 31=2C 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem
> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>
> Sam Buchanan
I have often thought this about my RV6. Opening the canopy in normal flight
beyond about 2 inches is next to impossible. I mentioned this to a retired
USAF F-4 Driver and his response was "It depends upon how motivated you ar
e!"
But the caution about having plenty of altitude is good. It will give you m
ore time to try and regain control even if you don't think you can bail out
. The IAC requires parachutes in competiton=2C so I use one regardless of w
hat I think its usefullness might be. And who knows=2C if I loose control i
n an inverted flat spin and can't regain control=2C maybe I will be able to
open the canopy.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos. Cli
ck here.
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?RV-List
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL
:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Mike, we appreciate having you here on the list! Even if your first RV is
somewhere on the bottom of the ocean near Hawaii ;-) Don't be put off by
the ill-manners of some. You are a welcome member of the community, and
your restraint is admirable.
-Bill
RV-6A that's never been looped.
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mike Robertson <mrobert569@hotmail.com>wrote:
> Excuse me but when did I ever call anyone a name. And you will also note I
> did not say whether I or anyone else should do it, just whether it was
> legal. I do not endorse or recommend anyone doing any aerobatics without
> training, even in an RV6ator, but if I tried to take them to task I would
> have a very rough time.
>
> Mike Robertson
> Federal Asshole please
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *========================
> *
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Bill, you've been around this list for many years and you know better than
to behave like that. There is no call for that at all.
Mike is both a well respected aviator as well as a respected FAA employee.
Cheers,
Stein
do not archive this drivel.
_________________________________________
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive
this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any
computer.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:11 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I
CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF
OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED
AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Just this past week we lost Vicki
> Cruse, a highly capable aerobatic pilot and IAC president. If the best
> can't survive, where do the 'weekend warrior' aerobatic pilots fit in???
No disrespect for anyone on the list, but I do have to comment.
Yes we lost Vicki last week, and last month we lost Chandy Clanton and Art
Shoal was lost in the 80's and Leo Loudenslager was lost in the 80's due to
a motorcycle accident. During this past year numerous civilian, military
and commercial aircraft have also crashed. In the future we will lose more!
Do we quit flying?
Vicki started her acrobatic career as a weekend warrior, as did most
competition pilots. When she crashed she was practicing a highly technical
unlimited aerobatic competition sequence on the deck that RV aircraft
physically can not perform. At the World Aerobatic Champtionship, many
pilots push their planes and themselves to the limit of their flying
abilities, weekend warriors have no motivation to do the same.
Just because she crashed, I fail to see how that has any impact on my, or
anyone else's weekend and weekday aerobatics. What does impact my
aerobatics are: airworthiness of the aircraft, pilot skill, knowledge and
attitude, practice, and practice and more practice.
I only fly my RV for competition style aerobatics. The more I fly the RV
the more I like it for aerobatics. I have had a few hours of aerobatic
instruction but most of the aerobatic maneuvers, I have learned on my own
(self taught): Hammerhead, Sharkstooth, Inverted Flying, 4 Point Roll, Knife
Edge, Cloverleaf, P-Loop, Split S. I have no unreasonable fear of
aerobatics in my RV, on the other hand I have a healthy respect for weather
and I never fly in IMC (that is really scary!). But many RV pilots fly IMC
all the time and are comfortable with that type of flying.
But let us not say after some high profile IFR pilot crashes in IMC that the
rest of us don't stand a chance flying IFR!
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Stein,
My apologies to Mike and anyone I have offended. But as an FAA employee He
should know better than making reference to looping a non aerobatic
certified aircraft. Yes it IS illegal. And yes the RV community is having a bad
year regarding accidents. I personally am sick and tired of reading accident
reports after accident reports of pilots who were just plain stupid and got
killed performing aerobatic manuevers with some innocent passenger along
for the ride. We all know what a joy it is to fly an RV, and they just beg
you to go upside down. But one thing I have learned from 40 years and 24,000
hors of flying is as soon as you loose respect for the privilege of
flight, and think you know it all, you are going to get killed, by your own
stupidity. The exception to the rule are the countless Airshow legends that have
amazed the crowds for eternity, Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin ,Art Scholl
, Max Karrant, and the list goes on. The unique difference there is that
is their passion, they wouldn't have had it any other way.
Bill Mahoney
In a message dated 9/1/2009 11:44:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, stein@s
teinair.com writes:
Bill, you've been around this list for many years and you know better than
to behave like that. There is no call for that at all.
Mike is both a well respected aviator as well as a respected FAA employee.
Cheers,
Stein
do not archive this drivel.
_________________________________________
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking
of
any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other
than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error,
please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOULD
BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I
CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF
OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND
BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Looping Cherokees and RV parachutes |
I'd always assumed that since the FAR's define aerobatic flight as
attitudes "not necessary for normal flight" (as I recall, anything
exceeding 60 degrees bank or 30 degrees pitch) and a Cherokee isn't
certified in the "aerobatic" category, that a loop would therefore be
illegal; is there some definition I'm missing? Any sort of weed that
has better info please chime in...
More on topic; I've heard nobody's ever bailed out of an RV, but
does anyone know of an accident where someone tried? My concern's
always been either structural failure (over G'ing the airplane
accidently, or maybe a bird strike). For that matter, anyone know of a
crash caused by structural failure aside from the RV-8 demonstrator a
few years ago? My feeling has always been that was an overload from too
eager stick movement...
Brian V
RV-6
31 hours (still phase 1)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Thanks for the kind words. Although I have to admit that I have been in er
ror a few times=2C I just can't remember them right now.
On the flip side=2C let me explain a bit further for everyone. What the ge
ntleman was initially hanging his hat on is FAR 91.9(a). In that reg it st
ates that you will NOT exceed any limitations in the approved flight manual
=2C markings=2C and placards. So while the regs themselves do not state th
at aerobatics are illegal=2C they give an indirect answer. So check those
manuals and placards to see what you can do.
An interesting side note is that 91.303 states that an aerobatic manuver is
ANY intential manuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft's attitud
e=2C an abnormal attitude=2C or abnormal acceleration=2C not necessary for
NORMAL flight. Therefore=2C a lazy eight=2C some stalls=2C a chandelle=2C
a steep turn=2C etc=2C are considered to be aerobatic manuvers under this d
efinition.
Again=2C please for safety sake and for your families=2C I recommend gettin
g training before doing anything you have not done before=2C but=2C legally
=2C I=2C or any other inspector=2C may not be able to do anything about it
if you do.
Mike Robertson
From: stein@steinair.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
Bill=2C you've been around this list for many years and you know better tha
n to behave like that. There is no call for that at all.
Mike is both a well respected aviator as well as a respected FAA employee.
Cheers=2C
Stein
do not archive this drivel.
_________________________________________
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to wh
ich it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material
. Any review=2C retransmission=2C dissemination or other use of=2C or takin
g of any action in reliance upon=2C this information by persons or entities
other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in er
ror=2C please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com]On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com
Sent: Monday=2C August 31=2C 2009 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
HEY DICKWEED=2C A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER=2C AEROBATIC MANUEVERS SHOU
LD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS=2C LAST TIME I
CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT HEY=2C KNOCK YOURS
ELF OUT=2C BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CR
ASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS ONBOARD>
In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C mrobert5
69@hotmail.com writes:
_________________________________________________________________
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYC
B_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Bob, my comments were not to dissuade anyone from doing aerobatics .....
I'm addicted to them myself. My point was that (and you mentioned)
sometimes the skilled become a statistic. No mention of what caused the
accident. It happened. It was a perspective thingy. What I also
pointed out is that the character of the pilot usually comes into play
when doing the 'stupid pilot tricks'. So, refrain from an activity in
which someone didn't survive??? Absolutely not. But at least give the
proposed activity some careful thought and soul searching.
Y'all be safe out there.
Linn ..... last comment on this thread
do not archive
Panama Red wrote:
>
> Just this past week we lost Vicki
>> Cruse, a highly capable aerobatic pilot and IAC president. If the best
>> can't survive, where do the 'weekend warrior' aerobatic pilots fit in???
>
>
>
> No disrespect for anyone on the list, but I do have to comment.
>
>
>
> Yes we lost Vicki last week, and last month we lost Chandy Clanton and
> Art Shoal was lost in the 80's and Leo Loudenslager was lost in the 80's
> due to a motorcycle accident. During this past year numerous civilian,
> military and commercial aircraft have also crashed. In the future we
> will lose more! Do we quit flying?
>
>
>
> Vicki started her acrobatic career as a weekend warrior, as did most
> competition pilots. When she crashed she was practicing a highly
> technical unlimited aerobatic competition sequence on the deck that RV
> aircraft physically can not perform. At the World Aerobatic
> Champtionship, many pilots push their planes and themselves to the limit
> of their flying abilities, weekend warriors have no motivation to do the
> same.
>
>
>
> Just because she crashed, I fail to see how that has any impact on my,
> or anyone else's weekend and weekday aerobatics. What does impact my
> aerobatics are: airworthiness of the aircraft, pilot skill, knowledge
> and attitude, practice, and practice and more practice.
>
>
>
> I only fly my RV for competition style aerobatics. The more I fly the
> RV the more I like it for aerobatics. I have had a few hours of
> aerobatic instruction but most of the aerobatic maneuvers, I have
> learned on my own (self taught): Hammerhead, Sharkstooth, Inverted
> Flying, 4 Point Roll, Knife Edge, Cloverleaf, P-Loop, Split S. I have
> no unreasonable fear of aerobatics in my RV, on the other hand I have a
> healthy respect for weather and I never fly in IMC (that is really
> scary!). But many RV pilots fly IMC all the time and are comfortable
> with that type of flying.
>
>
>
> But let us not say after some high profile IFR pilot crashes in IMC that
> the rest of us don't stand a chance flying IFR!
>
>
>
> Bob
>
> RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Flying over water |
I'm not sure if I'm replying properly guys. Let me know if I'm doing this
wrong. I only subscribe to the digest, which makes replying awkward.
Ralph, I'd at least have an inflatable as you mention (I have SOSpenders),
but be sure to take the auto-inflate bobbin out! You wouldn't want to be in
your upside-down plane with an inflated vest on...
>Thanks Mike.....
>Meaning that I'm kinda back to the original no-real-rules statement.
>I'm thinking a set of inflatable suspender-type with a light and whistle
attached
>(like I use while sailing) is a good start - I can wear that and still
strap
>in properly
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
Getting out of a RV with an in flight emergency seems dicey at best then again
I can imagine that getting out of those Spitfires and ME 109's in WW II was not
easy but they did get out. I remember reading the story of this one Germain
Ace and his technique (yep he did it more than once) was to use his feet to push
forward on the stick and that popped him out. One time when he was getting
ready the guy that just shot him down over shot him so he got back in the seat
fired and shot the American down. Then he "ejected" himself and they both had
dinner in the officers mess at the Germain base. Next day the American went off
to POW camp. OK a little off the point but it might be possible to get out
of a flying/falling RV. Of course you need to actually have the parachute on to
even give it a try and I have yet to see any one flying an RV with one on.
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that guarantee
your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
________________________________
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:35:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the aircraft, it is probably
not in normal forward flight. It may be the case that falling condition alters
the aerodynamic forces such that opening either canopy may be possible. The
aft CG stall in particular comes to mind. Point is... at least give it a try
- Oh, and that parachute may have been worth while after all. (Though I admit
that I don't wear one.)
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
>>Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done it) is probably
going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that I never thought about.
It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in front of the hangar!!! I suppose
you could maneuver the airplane to decrease those wind loads .... but if you
can maneuver the airplane .... why leave it. Well, if it's on fire ....
>>
>Linn
>
>>Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>>
>>>><am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
>>
>>>>Linn Walters wrote:
>>>> > Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Linn Walters wrote:
>>>> >> <snip>
>>>> >> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
>>>> >>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it and not
have it.
>>>> >>> Linn
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>>>> > Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
>>>> > Linn
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Linn,
>>
>>>>There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
>>
>>>>tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may* have
worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic assist (guess in
an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it would take off your
head or the vertical stab as it departed the plane....). But since mid-90's, the
hydraulic struts have been shipped with finish kits and would almost certainly
prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
>>
>>>>slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
>>
>>>>The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either canopy
open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed up with difficulty
maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than 12". In either case
a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit the aircraft. If a builder
was serious about aerobatics quick-release pins might be incorporated into
the slider installation. Some have done this with the RV-8.
>>
>>>>As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out of
a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no documented
cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
>>
>>>>A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually needed
to use it. ;-)
>>
>>>>Sam Buchanan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>==========
>>get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>==========
>http://forums.matronics.com
>>==========
>>le, List Admin.
>>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>==========
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
can you even open an RV canopy in mid flight to jump? seems to me the pressure
would make the task impossible unless the canopy was broken first.
________________________________
From: Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 1:13:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Getting out of a RV with an in flight emergency seems dicey at best then again
I can imagine that getting out of those Spitfires and ME 109's in WW II was not
easy but they did get out. I remember reading the story of this one Germain
Ace and his technique (yep he did it more than once) was to use his feet to push
forward on the stick and that popped him out. One time when he was getting
ready the guy that just shot him down over shot him so he got back in the seat
fired and shot the American down. Then he "ejected" himself and they both had
dinner in the officers mess at the Germain base. Next day the American went off
to POW camp. OK a little off the point but it might be possible to get out
of a flying/falling RV. Of course you need to actually have the parachute on to
even give it a try and I have yet to see any one flying an RV with one on.
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that guarantee
your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
________________________________
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:35:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the aircraft, it is probably
not in normal forward flight. It may be the case that falling condition alters
the aerodynamic forces such that opening either canopy may be possible. The
aft CG stall in particular comes to mind. Point is... at least give it a try
- Oh, and that parachute may have been worth while after all. (Though I admit
that I don't wear one.)
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
>>Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done it) is probably
going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that I never thought about.
It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in front of the hangar!!! I suppose
you could maneuver the airplane to decrease those wind loads .... but if you
can maneuver the airplane .... why leave it. Well, if it's on fire ....
>>
>Linn
>
>>Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>>
>>>><am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
>>
>>>>Linn Walters wrote:
>>>> > Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Linn Walters wrote:
>>>> >> <snip>
>>>> >> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
>>>> >>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and, of
course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need it and not
have it.
>>>> >>> Linn
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........ :-(
>>>> > Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
>>>> > Linn
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Linn,
>>
>>>>There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
>>
>>>>tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may* have
worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic assist (guess in
an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it would take off your
head or the vertical stab as it departed the plane....). But since mid-90's, the
hydraulic struts have been shipped with finish kits and would almost certainly
prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
>>
>>>>slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
>>
>>>>The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either canopy
open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed up with difficulty
maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than 12". In either case
a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit the aircraft. If a builder
was serious about aerobatics quick-release pins might be incorporated into
the slider installation. Some have done this with the RV-8.
>>
>>>>As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out of
a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no documented
cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
>>
>>>>A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually needed
to use it. ;-)
>>
>>>>Sam Buchanan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>==========
>>get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>==========
>http://forums.matronics.com
>>==========
>>le, List Admin.
>>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>==========
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | emergency extrication |
Seems to me two feet on any RV canopy will do the trick. One foot if I
built it.
Robin
Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hadley
Heinrichs
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
can you even open an RV canopy in mid flight to jump? seems to me the
pressure would make the task impossible unless the canopy was broken
first.
________________________________
From: Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 1:13:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Getting out of a RV with an in flight emergency seems dicey at best then
again I can imagine that getting out of those Spitfires and ME 109's in
WW II was not easy but they did get out. I remember reading the story of
this one Germain Ace and his technique (yep he did it more than once)
was to use his feet to push forward on the stick and that popped him
out. One time when he was getting ready the guy that just shot him down
over shot him so he got back in the seat fired and shot the American
down. Then he "ejected" himself and they both had dinner in the officers
mess at the Germain base. Next day the American went off to POW camp. OK
a little off the point but it might be possible to get out of a
flying/falling RV. Of course you need to actually have the parachute on
to even give it a try and I have yet to see any one flying an RV with
one on.
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that
guarantee your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
________________________________
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:35:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the aircraft, it is
probably not in normal forward flight. It may be the case that falling
condition alters the aerodynamic forces such that opening either canopy
may be possible. The aft CG stall in particular comes to mind. Point
is... at least give it a try - Oh, and that parachute may have been
worth while after all. (Though I admit that I don't wear one.)
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done it) is
probably going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that I never
thought about. It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in front of the
hangar!!! I suppose you could maneuver the airplane to decrease those
wind loads .... but if you can maneuver the airplane .... why leave it.
Well, if it's on fire ....
Linn
Sam Buchanan wrote:
<am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
Linn Walters wrote:
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>
>> Linn Walters wrote:
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>> <snip>
>> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
>>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and,
of course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it than need
it and not have it.
>>> Linn
>>
>>
>> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A........
:-(
> Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
> Linn
Linn,
There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may*
have worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic
assist (guess in an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it
would take off your head or the vertical stab as it departed the
plane....). But since mid-90's, the hydraulic struts have been shipped
with finish kits and would almost certainly prevent the canopy from
detaching as designed.
slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either
canopy open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed
up with difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than
12". In either case a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit
the aircraft. If a builder was serious about aerobatics quick-release
pins might be incorporated into the slider installation. Some have done
this with the RV-8.
As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out
of a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no
documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up
canopy.
A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually
needed to use it. ;-)
Sam Buchanan
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
Now that is the way to make a point and have everyone read and think about it.
Thanks
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that guarantee
your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
________________________________
From: "RV6ator@aol.com" <RV6ator@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:26:34 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story.
Stein,
My apologies to Mike and anyone I have offended. But as an FAA employee He
should know better than making reference to looping a non aerobatic certified
aircraft. Yes it IS illegal. And yes the RV community is having a bad year
regarding accidents. I personally am sick and tired of reading accident reports
after accident reports of pilots who were just plain stupid and got killed
performing aerobatic manuevers with some innocent passenger along for the
ride. We all know what a joy it is to fly an RV, and they just beg you to
go upside down. But one thing I have learned from 40 years and 24,000 hors
of flying is as soon as you loose respect for the privilege of flight, and think
you know it all, you are going to get killed, by your own stupidity. The
exception to the rule are the countless Airshow legends that have amazed
the crowds for eternity, Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin ,Art Scholl , Max
Karrant, and the list goes on. The unique difference there
is that is their passion, they wouldn't have had it any other
way.
Bill Mahoney
In a message dated 9/1/2009 11:44:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
Bill, you've been around this list for
> many years and you know better than to behave like that. There is no
> call for that at all.
>
>Mike is both a well respected aviator as
> well as a respected FAA employee.
>
>Cheers,
>Stein
>
>do not archive this drivel.
>
>_________________________________________
>The information transmitted is
> intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may
> contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission,
> dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this
> information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
> prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete
> the material from any computer.
>
>-----Original
>> Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of >> RV6ator@aol.com
>>Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:11
>> PM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop
>> problem --- the rest of the story.
>>
>>HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC
>> MANUEVERS SHOULD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR
>> AEROBATICS, LAST TIME I CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR
>> AEROBATICS. BUT HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY
>> OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS
>> ONBOARD>
>>In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> mrobert569@hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>===================================
>="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List===================================
>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>===================================
>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution===================================
>
>
________________________________
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
Maybe some of you have been on the list long enough to remember a fellow ou
t in Oregon or Washington, whose RV8
caught on fire after a catostrophic engine failure - His first name was Vau
ghan, can't remember the last name - anyway
the story I heard was that he jumped from the plane to his death (no chute)
rather than stay in it. So, it is possible to
get out of an RV. An RV8 at least. This incident happend around 1999 I beli
eve.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hadley Heinrichs" <rvhad@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:41:08 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
can you even open an RV canopy in mid flight to jump?=C2- seems to me the
pressure would make the task impossible unless the canopy was broken first
.
From: Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 1:13:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Getting out of a RV with an in flight emergency seems dicey at best then ag
ain I can imagine that getting out of those Spitfires and ME 109's in WW II
was not easy but they did get out. I remember reading the story of this on
e Germain Ace and his technique (yep he did it more than once) was to use h
is feet to push forward on the stick and that popped him out. One time when
he was getting ready the guy that just shot him down over shot him so he g
ot back in the seat fired and shot the American down. Then he "ejected" him
self and they both had dinner in the officers mess at the Germain base. Nex
t day the American went off to POW camp. OK a little off the point but it m
ight be possible to get out of a flying/falling RV. Of course you need to a
ctually have the parachute on to even give it a try and I have yet to see a
ny one flying an RV with one on.
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6 (flying)
http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that guara
ntee your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:35:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the=C2- aircraft, it is
probably not in normal forward flight.=C2- It may be the case that fallin
g condition alters the aerodynamic forces such that opening either canopy m
ay be possible.=C2- The aft CG stall in particular comes to mind.=C2- P
oint is... at least give it a try - Oh, and that parachute may have been wo
rth while after all.=C2- (Though I admit that I don't wear one.)
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters < pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net >
wrote:
My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
Something to think about. =C2-Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done it) i
s probably going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that I never tho
ught about. =C2-It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in front of the ha
ngar!!! =C2-I suppose you could maneuver the airplane to decrease those w
ind loads .... but if you can maneuver the airplane .... why leave it. =C2
-Well, if it's on fire ....
Linn
Sam Buchanan wrote:
<am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address bounced>
Linn Walters wrote:
=C2-> Sam Buchanan wrote:
=C2->>
=C2->> Linn Walters wrote:
th.net >
=C2->> <snip>
=C2->> =C2- My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
=C2->>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ...... and
, of course, wear a 'chute. =C2-Better to carry one and not need it than
need it and not have it.
=C2->>> Linn
=C2->>
=C2->>
=C2->> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the RV-6A......
.. :-(
=C2-> Why is that? =C2-Inquiring minds want to know!
=C2-> Linn
Linn,
There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that *may* have
worked properly when the canopies were built without hydraulic assist (gues
s in an emergency you wouldn't worry about whether or not it would take off
your head or the vertical stab as it departed the plane....). But since mi
d-90's, the hydraulic struts have been shipped with finish kits and would a
lmost certainly prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either canopy
open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be pushed up with di
fficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back less than 12". In eithe
r case a pilot would find it practically impossible to exit the aircraft. I
f a builder was serious about aerobatics quick-release pins might be incorp
orated into the slider installation. Some have done this with the RV-8.
As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing out of
a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there are no documen
ted cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the tip up canopy.
A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you actually neede
d to use it. =C2-;-)
Sam Buchanan
===========
get="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
==
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, rveighta@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> Maybe some of you have been on the list long enough to remember a
>fellow out in Oregon or Washington, whose RV8
> caught on fire after a catostrophic engine failure - His first name was
>Vaughan, can't remember the last name - anyway
> the story I heard was that he jumped from the plane to his death (no
>chute) rather than stay in it. So, it is possible to
> get out of an RV. An RV8 at least. This incident happend around 1999 I
>believe.
Von Alexander (I may have the spelling wrong). He had put in release
pins for the screws that hold the front of the canopy down to make bailing
out a possibility. I wear a chute in the starduster when doing
aerobatics, plan on doing so in the RV as well.
Brian Huffaker
RV-8A 80091 working on canopy latch
1/4 Starduster II N23UT flying
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
You are right. It was at a very low altitude too.
Cecil
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 23:36:37 +0000 (UTC) rveighta@comcast.net writes:
>
>
> Maybe some of you have been on the list long enough to remember a
> fellow out in Oregon or Washington, whose RV8
>
> caught on fire after a catostrophic engine failure - His first name
> was Vaughan, can't remember the last name - anyway
>
> the story I heard was that he jumped from the plane to his death (no
> chute) rather than stay in it. So, it is possible to
>
> get out of an RV. An RV8 at least. This incident happend around 1999
> I believe.
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hadley Heinrichs" <rvhad@yahoo.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:41:08 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
> Eastern
> Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
>
>
>
> can you even open an RV canopy in mid flight to jump? seems to me
> the pressure would make the task impossible unless the canopy was
> broken first.
>
>
> From: Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 1:13:23 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
>
>
> Getting out of a RV with an in flight emergency seems dicey at best
> then again I can imagine that getting out of those Spitfires and ME
> 109's in WW II was not easy but they did get out. I remember reading
> the story of this one Germain Ace and his technique (yep he did it
> more than once) was to use his feet to push forward on the stick and
> that popped him out. One time when he was getting ready the guy that
> just shot him down over shot him so he got back in the seat fired
> and shot the American down. Then he "ejected" himself and they both
> had dinner in the officers mess at the Germain base. Next day the
> American went off to POW camp. OK a little off the point but it
> might be possible to get out of a flying/falling RV. Of course you
> need to actually have the parachute on to even give it a try and I
> have yet to see any one flying an RV with one on.
>
> Mike Divan
> N64GH - RV6 (flying)
> http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
> FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
> Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard
> that guarantee your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:35:21 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
>
> Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the aircraft, it
> is probably not in normal forward flight. It may be the case that
> falling condition alters the aerodynamic forces such that opening
> either canopy may be possible. The aft CG stall in particular
> comes to mind. Point is... at least give it a try - Oh, and that
> parachute may have been worth while after all. (Though I admit
> that I don't wear one.)
>
> --
> David Leonard
>
> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
> http://RotaryRoster.net
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters <
> pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net > wrote:
>
>
> pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net >
>
> My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
> Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done
> it) is probably going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that
> I never thought about. It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in
> front of the hangar!!! I suppose you could maneuver the airplane
> to decrease those wind loads .... but if you can maneuver the
> airplane .... why leave it. Well, if it's on fire ....
> Linn
>
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>
>
> <am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address
> bounced>
>
> Linn Walters wrote:
> > Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Linn Walters wrote:
> pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net >
> >> <snip>
> >> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
> >>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high ......
> and, of course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not need it
> than need it and not have it.
> >>> Linn
> >>
> >>
> >> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the
> RV-6A........ :-(
> > Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
> > Linn
>
>
>
> Linn,
>
> There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
>
> tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that
> *may* have worked properly when the canopies were built without
> hydraulic assist (guess in an emergency you wouldn't worry about
> whether or not it would take off your head or the vertical stab as
> it departed the plane....). But since mid-90's, the hydraulic struts
> have been shipped with finish kits and would almost certainly
> prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
>
> slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
>
> The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get either
> canopy open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can be
> pushed up with difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed back
> less than 12". In either case a pilot would find it practically
> impossible to exit the aircraft. If a builder was serious about
> aerobatics quick-release pins might be incorporated into the slider
> installation. Some have done this with the RV-8.
>
> As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone bailing
> out of a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact, there
> are no documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison the
> tip up canopy.
>
> A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you
> actually needed to use it. ;-)
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ===========
> get="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> ===========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ===========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===========
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==
____________________________________________________________
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFoYayxESSb5H2lN3ejnzTEGu9VZsQ5o3wIL8CWUf5EKNny8D8Gli/
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
I am building a slider and put pull pins at the left and right rollers.
With the idea that I could pull the two pins then push it up and let the
air stream carry the canopy away. It may damage the rudder on it way, but
it is a last resort type of thing. I won't be testing out ether.
Cecil
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 15:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Hadley Heinrichs
<rvhad@yahoo.com> writes:
> can you even open an RV canopy in mid flight to jump? seems to me
> the pressure would make the task impossible unless the canopy was
> broken first.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Divan <n343fd@yahoo.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 1:13:23 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
>
>
> Getting out of a RV with an in flight emergency seems dicey at best
> then again I can imagine that getting out of those Spitfires and ME
> 109's in WW II was not easy but they did get out. I remember reading
> the story of this one Germain Ace and his technique (yep he did it
> more than once) was to use his feet to push forward on the stick and
> that popped him out. One time when he was getting ready the guy that
> just shot him down over shot him so he got back in the seat fired
> and shot the American down. Then he "ejected" himself and they both
> had dinner in the officers mess at the Germain base. Next day the
> American went off to POW camp. OK a little off the point but it
> might be possible to get out of a flying/falling RV. Of course you
> need to actually have the parachute on to even give it a try and I
> have yet to see any one flying an RV with one on.
>
> Mike Divan
> N64GH - RV6 (flying)
> http://n64gh.blogspot.com/
> FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
> Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard
> that guarantee your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:35:21 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
>
> Dont forget that if you are trying to get out of the aircraft, it
> is probably not in normal forward flight. It may be the case that
> falling condition alters the aerodynamic forces such that opening
> either canopy may be possible. The aft CG stall in particular comes
> to mind. Point is... at least give it a try - Oh, and that
> parachute may have been worth while after all. (Though I admit that
> I don't wear one.)
>
> --
> David Leonard
>
> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
> http://RotaryRoster.net
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Linn Walters
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> >
> >>My apologies to the list, and thank you Sam, for the education!
> >>Something to think about. Exiting my Pitts (no, I've never done
> it) is probably going to be really tough due to air loads ..... that
> I never thought about. It's hard enough to get in/out sitting in
> front of the hangar!!! I suppose you could maneuver the airplane to
> decrease those wind loads .... but if you can maneuver the airplane
> .... why leave it. Well, if it's on fire ....
> >>
> >Linn
> >
> >>Sam Buchanan wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>><am sending this post to the list since Linn's private address
> bounced>
> >>
> >>>>Linn Walters wrote:
> >>>> > Sam Buchanan wrote:
> <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Linn Walters wrote:
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> >>>> >> <snip>
> >>>> >> My only suggestion when you're breaking new ground
> >>>> >>> in the flight envelope is to do it high .... very high
> ...... and, of course, wear a 'chute. Better to carry one and not
> need it than need it and not have it.
> >>>> >>> Linn
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Very unlikely you would ever be able to get out of the
> RV-6A........ :-(
> >>>> > Why is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
> >>>> > Linn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>Linn,
> >>
> >>>>There are two canopy designs on the side-by-side RVs:
> >>
> >>>>tip up; Originally designed with a quick release mechanism that
> *may* have worked properly when the canopies were built without
> hydraulic assist (guess in an emergency you wouldn't worry about
> whether or not it would take off your head or the vertical stab as
> it departed the plane....). But since mid-90's, the hydraulic struts
> have been shipped with finish kits and would almost certainly
> prevent the canopy from detaching as designed.
> >>
> >>>>slider; can be opened in flight, however.......
> >>
> >>>>The airloads on both designs make it nearly impossible to get
> either canopy open more than a few inches in flight. The tip up can
> be pushed up with difficulty maybe 6-12", the slider can be pushed
> back less than 12". In either case a pilot would find it practically
> impossible to exit the aircraft. If a builder was serious about
> aerobatics quick-release pins might be incorporated into the slider
> installation. Some have done this with the RV-8.
> >>
> >>>>As far as I know, there are *no* documented cases of someone
> bailing out of a side-by-side RV with either canopy. Matter of fact,
> there are no documented cases of anyone even attempting to jettison
> the tip up canopy.
> >>
> >>>>A parachute in a RV-6/6A might make you feel safer until you
> actually needed to use it. ;-)
> >>
> >>>>Sam Buchanan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >>==========
> >>get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> >>==========
> >http://forums.matronics.com
> >>==========
> >>le, List Admin.
> >>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFoYeDADrgtHkBgpAn1qqKsqQFmL5n0F02CiXyGtINxTiFss8IglK/
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: emergency extrication |
I sold Von the chute he wore during the test hours on his plane.? He had sold
it to another RV builder for his test period only a couple weeks before he jumped
to his death.? Corresponded with his daughter for a while afterwards as the
family came to grips with his loss.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Huffaker <bifft@xmission.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2009 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: RV-List: emergency extrication
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, rveighta@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> Maybe some of you have been on the list long enough to remember a
>fellow out in Oregon or Washington, whose RV8
> caught on fire after a catostrophic engine failure - His first name was
>Vaughan, can't remember the last name - anyway
> the story I heard was that he jumped from the plane to his death (no
>chute) rather than stay in it. So, it is possible to
> get out of an RV. An RV8 at least. This incident happend around 1999 I
>believe.
Von Alexander (I may have the spelling wrong). He had put in release
pins for the screws that hold the front of the canopy down to make bailing
out a possibility. I wear a chute in the starduster when doing
aerobatics, plan on doing so in the RV as well.
Brian Huffaker
RV-8A 80091 working on canopy latch
1/4 Starduster II N23UT flying
Message 21
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| Subject: | Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage |
Boy, I was ready to quit Matt's list because of the onset of boredom.
Thanks for saving me RV6ator Bill.
So, I think DICKWEED and ASSHOLE is actually part of the recipe for
the sausage that we sometimes get at the local air show. I'm sure
Bill had too many of them at 'Kosh, and he accidently regurgitated
them in his post.
OK, back to the subject. I do NOT believe that the FAA defines an
aerobatic aircraft. They do define aerobatics ( or aerobatic
maneuvers ). They do this because there are restrictions on when and
where you may perform aerobatics.
As Mike pointed out, the FAA does make it clear that you may not
exceed the limitations stated in the manual, makings and placard. So,
if an aircraft is approved for, say +3 and -1.5 G's, and the manual,
markings, and placards do not specifically prohibit a loop, then I
suppose you may legally perform loops the aircraft ( if you are in an
FAA permitted area).
That being said, you would still be considered a moron if you tried
to loop the aforementioned aircraft. You might get away with it a few
times, but.....
Mike, would you care to comment.
Louis I Willig
1640 Oakwood Dr.
Penn Valley, PA 19072
610 668-4964
RV-4, N180PF
190HP IO-360, C/S prop
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. |
I agree for the most part but IMO those Cost (sic) Guard guys haven't been
protecting the cost of my stocks very well lately.
-N1GV
In a message dated 9/1/2009 4:38:10 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
n343fd@yahoo.com writes:
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
Remember it is the Solder, Sailor, Airman, Marine and Cost Guard that
guarantee your freedom NOT the "community organizer"!
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains RV-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
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****************************************
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****************************************
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You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
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*****************************
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*****************************
Send an email message to:
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Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
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*****************************************************
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Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
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Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
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Look for the link "Image Resizer"
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you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
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*******************
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*******************
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comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Official RV-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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