---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/02/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:52 AM - 0GA1 - Mustang Field (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA) 2. 06:52 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Glenn Bell) 3. 06:53 AM - Loops clarification (charlie heathco) 4. 06:53 AM - rules (grenwis@aol.com) 5. 07:20 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Linn Walters) 6. 07:45 AM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (glennbell@cablelynx.com) 7. 08:14 AM - Re: Loop problemLoop problem (Valovich, Paul) 8. 08:22 AM - Re: Loops clarification (Jerry Springer) 9. 08:39 AM - Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions (Jerry Grimmonpre) 10. 08:49 AM - Re: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions (Vanremog@aol.com) 11. 08:56 AM - Re: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA) 12. 09:08 AM - Re: Loops clarification (Jerry Springer) 13. 09:09 AM - Re: Loops clarification (Jerry Springer) 14. 09:20 AM - Re: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions (Brian Meyette) 15. 10:55 AM - Re: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions (Bret Smith) 16. 02:14 PM - Re: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. (Kevin Horton) 17. 05:25 PM - Re: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage (Mike Robertson) 18. 05:46 PM - Re: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage (RV6ator@AOL.COM) 19. 08:37 PM - Re: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage (Jerry Springer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:28 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: 0GA1 - Mustang Field From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA" Does anybody have any experience with Mustang Field near Athens, GA? Field conditions, obstructions, open to visitors.? Neal ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:56 AM PST US From: "Glenn Bell" Subject: RE: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. My first post but maybe somewhat relevant.we are building an 8A and have finished most of the subassemblys and are waiting on the lycon engine and the dynon nextgen.when someone comes by the hanger and wants to know what we are building we point to a photo of the really good looking 8A that we were told was at the bottom of the pacific ocean.we are duplicating the paint scheme except for painting the rudder solid red.we are using concept in gm white and gm victory red..the black accents will be vinyl.we will finish it with a three blade cato painted to match the fuse.we have been to osh the last two years and of all the paint schemes , we liked this the best. From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:08 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. Mike, we appreciate having you here on the list! Even if your first RV is somewhere on the bottom of the ocean near Hawaii ;-) Don't be put off by the ill-manners of some. You are a welcome member of the community, and your restraint is admirable. -Bill RV-6A that's never been looped. On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mike Robertson wrote: Excuse me but when did I ever call anyone a name. And you will also note I did not say whether I or anyone else should do it, just whether it was legal. I do not endorse or recommend anyone doing any aerobatics without training, even in an RV6ator, but if I tried to take them to task I would have a very rough time. Mike Robertson Federal Asshole please _____ ======================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:02 AM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: RV-List: Loops clarification Man, I Hope this doesnt get anyones dander up :-) First, thanks for the notes on best entry speed and G pull, It is clear I didnt pull tight enuff. Gonna try it again next flight. I do have a g meter, my 6a has been cert for acro, and I was at 4000 msl. Re loops in 140, Cherokees are rugged planes. My coml Multi instructor had just returned from Nam as an L-19 driver, the man was fearless. taught me several things your not suposed to do. I wont mention them tho. One thing I was having chicken out problems trying to do three turn spins, which were required at that time. He went up with me, got the plane in what must have been a spiral. I looked out at wing and skins were flutering, looked at airspeed and it was way over red line. I casually mentioned, yea right, PULL OUT DON!!! Yes Cherokkes are rugged and they do a nice loop. (we nevr tiried rolls) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:26 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: rules From: grenwis@aol.com Matt, Thank you for reposting the rules.? Now where is your e-mail saying that rv6ator@aol has been banned from the list?? I don't come to this list to read that kind of vulgarity and a personal attack.? If that isn't a clear violation of the rules, you'll never see one.? This list often goes on wild goose chases, but it is a benefit to hear other opinions in an open manner.? If the mean-spirited,?vicious attack launched by rv6ator@aol is allowed to go unpunished, I?will wish you well and unsubscribe. Rick? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:00 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. Hmmm. I thought the Red-Tailed Devils had Merlins or Allisons in them!!! Linn Do not archive. Glenn Bell wrote: > My first post but maybe somewhat relevantwe are building an 8A and have > finished most of the subassemblys and are waiting on the lycon engine > and the dynon nextgenwhen someone comes by the hanger and wants to know > what we are building we point to a photo of the really good looking 8A > that we were told was at the bottom of the pacific oceanwe are > duplicating the paint scheme except for painting the rudder solid redwe > are using concept in gm white and gm victory red..the black accents will > be vinylwe will finish it with a three blade cato painted to match the > fusewe have been to osh the last two years and of all the paint schemes > , we liked this the best > > > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Boyd > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:08 AM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. > > > > Mike, we appreciate having you here on the list! Even if your first RV > is somewhere on the bottom of the ocean near Hawaii ;-) Don't be put > off by the ill-manners of some. You are a welcome member of the > community, and your restraint is admirable. > > > > -Bill > > RV-6A that's never been looped. > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mike Robertson > wrote: > > Excuse me but when did I ever call anyone a name. And you will also > note I did not say whether I or anyone else should do it, just whether > it was legal. I do not endorse or recommend anyone doing any aerobatics > without training, even in an RV6ator, but if I tried to take them to > task I would have a very rough time. > > Mike Robertson > Federal Asshole please > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *=========================* > > * * > > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. From: glennbell@cablelynx.com Just the slow ones Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. Hmmm. I thought the Red-Tailed Devils had Merlins or Allisons in them!!! Linn Do not archive. Glenn Bell wrote: > My first post but maybe somewhat relevantwe are building an 8A and have > finished most of the subassemblys and are waiting on the lycon engine > and the dynon nextgenwhen someone comes by the hanger and wants to know > what we are building we point to a photo of the really good looking 8A > that we were told was at the bottom of the pacific oceanwe are > duplicating the paint scheme except for painting the rudder solid redwe > are using concept in gm white and gm victory red..the black accents will > be vinylwe will finish it with a three blade cato painted to match the > fusewe have been to osh the last two years and of all the paint schemes > , we liked this the best > > > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Boyd > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:08 AM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. > > > > Mike, we appreciate having you here on the list! Even if your first RV > is somewhere on the bottom of the ocean near Hawaii ;-) Don't be put > off by the ill-manners of some. You are a welcome member of the > community, and your restraint is admirable. > > > > -Bill > > RV-6A that's never been looped. > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mike Robertson > wrote: > > Excuse me but when did I ever call anyone a name. And you will also > note I did not say whether I or anyone else should do it, just whether > it was legal. I do not endorse or recommend anyone doing any aerobatics > without training, even in an RV6ator, but if I tried to take them to > task I would have a very rough time. > > Mike Robertson > Federal Asshole please > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *=========================* > > * * > > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:49 AM PST US From: "Valovich, Paul" Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problemLoop problem All certified aircraft have an allowable flight envelope that always permit s flight at greater or less than +1g up to a specified limit. As far as the aircraft is concerned, attitude within that envelope doesn't matter. Howev er, the pilot has to have the intelligence, skill and situational awareness to remain within the envelope throughout any maneuver. FAA airspace restri ctions do matter - from a regulatory, not aerodynamic perspective. One can certainly start any acrobatic maneuver in a Cherokee - the kicker is proper ly assessing the probability of remaining in and recovery within said envel ope. Anyone remember the videos of Bob Hoover (I think it was him) doing acro an d inverted fight with a glass of water on the glare shield - and not spilli ng a drop? Acro and unusual attitudes are not inherently dangerous if approached with proper planning and understanding of both flight envelope limitations and the "what ifs". Airlines seem to agree by introducing upset training - admi ttedly only after a series of preventable delta sierra accidents involving improper control inputs in response to unexpected attitude excursions. Paul Valovich Booger RV-8A N192NM Reserved (again) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:12 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Loops clarification Spins were required for flight instructor cert. but not for PP cert. Jerry Jerry Springer Sent from my IPhone On Sep 2, 2009, at 6:52 AM, "charlie heathco" wrote: > Man, I Hope this doesnt get anyones dander up :-) First, thanks for > the notes on best entry speed and G pull, It is clear I didnt pull > tight enuff. Gonna try it again next flight. I do have a g meter, my > 6a has been cert for acro, and I was at 4000 msl. Re loops in 140, > Cherokees are rugged planes. My coml Multi instructor had just > returned from Nam as an L-19 driver, the man was fearless. taught me > several things your not suposed to do. I wont mention them tho. One > thing I was having chicken out problems trying to do three turn > spins, which were required at that time. He went up with me, got the > plane in what must have been a spiral. I looked out at wing and > skins were flutering, looked at airspeed and it was way over red > line. I casually mentioned, yea right, PULL OUT DON!!! Yes Cherokkes > are rugged and they do a nice loop. (we nevr tiried rolls) > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:16 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions Dear Listers, I'm replacing nylon lines with stainless braid/teflon tube. Is there any braking effectiveness difference between the -3 size and the -4 size lines? Is it true that the -3 lines cost more to fabricate because they are smaller therefore harder to fabricate? What does the list suggest to order ... the -3 or the -4 lines and why is one better than the other? Where is the best place, for price and service, to have the lines fabricated? Many thanks for the vast experience of this list ... Jerry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:21 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions I had my Earl's lines fabricated at a speed shop and I prefer the smaller size line. There is very little flow in braking systems and the smaller size will give a firmer feel because of the reduction in internal surface area. -N1GV In a message dated 9/2/2009 8:40:51 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@mc.net writes: I'm replacing nylon lines with stainless braid/teflon tube. Is there any braking effectiveness difference between the -3 size and the -4 size lines? Is it true that the -3 lines cost more to fabricate because they are smaller therefore harder to fabricate? What does the list suggest to order ... the -3 or the -4 lines and why is one better than the other? Where is the best place, for price and service, to have the lines fabricated? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA" Jerry - The good folks at Bonaco (www.bonacoinc.com) provide exceptional service at low cost. neal ============== Subject: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions Dear Listers, I'm replacing nylon lines with stainless braid/teflon tube. Is there any braking effectiveness difference between the -3 size and the -4 size lines? Is it true that the -3 lines cost more to fabricate because they are smaller therefore harder to fabricate? What does the list suggest to order ... the -3 or the -4 lines and why is one better than the other? Where is the best place, for price and service, to have the lines fabricated? Many thanks for the vast experience of this list ... Jerry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:03 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Loops clarification Jerry Springer Sent from my IPhone On Sep 2, 2009, at 6:52 AM, "charlie heathco" wrote: > Man, I Hope this doesnt get anyones dander up :-) First, thanks for > the notes on best entry speed and G pull, It is clear I didnt pull > tight enuff. Gonna try it again next flight. I do have a g meter, my > 6a has been cert for acro, and I was at 4000 msl. Re loops in 140, > Cherokees are rugged planes. My coml Multi instructor had just > returned from Nam as an L-19 driver, the man was fearless. taught me > several things your not suposed to do. I wont mention them tho. One > thing I was having chicken out problems trying to do three turn > spins, which were required at that time. He went up with me, got the > plane in what must have been a spiral. I looked out at wing and > skins were flutering, looked at airspeed and it was way over red > line. I casually mentioned, yea right, PULL OUT DON!!! Yes Cherokkes > are rugged and they do a nice loop. (we nevr tiried rolls) > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:26 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Loops clarification Ah missed the part about coml. Sorry Do not archive Jerry Jerry Springer Sent from my IPhone On Sep 2, 2009, at 6:52 AM, "charlie heathco" wrote: > Man, I Hope this doesnt get anyones dander up :-) First, thanks for > the notes on best entry speed and G pull, It is clear I didnt pull > tight enuff. Gonna try it again next flight. I do have a g meter, my > 6a has been cert for acro, and I was at 4000 msl. Re loops in 140, > Cherokees are rugged planes. My coml Multi instructor had just > returned from Nam as an L-19 driver, the man was fearless. taught me > several things your not suposed to do. I wont mention them tho. One > thing I was having chicken out problems trying to do three turn > spins, which were required at that time. He went up with me, got the > plane in what must have been a spiral. I looked out at wing and > skins were flutering, looked at airspeed and it was way over red > line. I casually mentioned, yea right, PULL OUT DON!!! Yes Cherokkes > are rugged and they do a nice loop. (we nevr tiried rolls) > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:05 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions on pressure side, smaller is better - less fluid to move & smaller size transfers the pressure more efficently on supply side, larger is better - less resistance in motorcycle roadracing, we usually use -2 lines for brakes not sure if you can get them custom-made, though if i was going to get s/s braided brake lines, I'd first look at a motorcycle supplier like Street & Competition http://www.streetandcomp.com/ or here http://tinyurl.com/lyctk8 only issue might be if they can't do the 37 degree fitting we need _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Grimmonpre Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:39 AM Subject: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions Dear Listers, I'm replacing nylon lines with stainless braid/teflon tube. Is there any braking effectiveness difference between the -3 size and the -4 size lines? Is it true that the -3 lines cost more to fabricate because they are smaller therefore harder to fabricate? What does the list suggest to order ... the -3 or the -4 lines and why is one better than the other? Where is the best place, for price and service, to have the lines fabricated? Many thanks for the vast experience of this list ... Jerry 05:50:00 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:25 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions Call Brett at www.Bonacoinc.com. He has the sets for every make of RV. All braided Teflon lines with colored liners. Reasonable prices and excellent customer service. Bret Smith RV-9A N16BL Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Meyette To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions on pressure side, smaller is better - less fluid to move & smaller size transfers the pressure more efficently on supply side, larger is better - less resistance in motorcycle roadracing, we usually use -2 lines for brakes not sure if you can get them custom-made, though if i was going to get s/s braided brake lines, I'd first look at a motorcycle supplier like Street & Competition http://www.streetandcomp.com/ or here http://tinyurl.com/lyctk8 only issue might be if they can't do the 37 degree fitting we need ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Grimmonpre Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:39 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Installing New Brake Lines ... Questions Dear Listers, I'm replacing nylon lines with stainless braid/teflon tube. Is there any braking effectiveness difference between the -3 size and the -4 size lines? Is it true that the -3 lines cost more to fabricate because they are smaller therefore harder to fabricate? What does the list suggest to order ... the -3 or the -4 lines and why is one better than the other? Where is the best place, for price and service, to have the lines fabricated? Many thanks for the vast experience of this list ... Jerry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 270.13.74/2339 - Release Date: 09/02/09 05:50:00 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:58 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. We have a wide selection of approved flight manuals (AFMs) in the reference library at work. I looked at AFMs for PA-28-140s from 1964 (the first year of production), 1971, 1973 and 1976. The all had the same limitations and placards relevant to this question. The AFM limitations section requires the many placards to be located in the cockpit, in full view of the pilot. Among those placards we find: "No acrobatic maneuvers (including spins) are approved for normal category operations." and "Utility category only Acrobatic maneuvers are limited to the following: Spins Steep turns Lazy eights Chandelles" Note: This is not a completely verbatim transcription of the placards, as the AFM shows them as being in all-caps, the AFM lists entry speeds for each of the approved aerobatic maneuvers, and spins are prohibited for aircraft fitted with air conditioning or ventilation blowers. I conclude that loops are prohibited in the Cherokee 140, using the FAR references provided by Mike Robertson. Kevin Horton On 1-Sep-09, at 12:19 , Mike Robertson wrote: > Thanks for the kind words. Although I have to admit that I have > been in error a few times, I just can't remember them right now. > > On the flip side, let me explain a bit further for everyone. What > the gentleman was initially hanging his hat on is FAR 91.9(a). In > that reg it states that you will NOT exceed any limitations in the > approved flight manual, markings, and placards. So while the regs > themselves do not state that aerobatics are illegal, they give an > indirect answer. So check those manuals and placards to see what > you can do. > > An interesting side note is that 91.303 states that an aerobatic > manuver is ANY intential manuver involving an abrupt change in the > aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, > not necessary for NORMAL flight. Therefore, a lazy eight, some > stalls, a chandelle, a steep turn, etc, are considered to be > aerobatic manuvers under this definition. > > Again, please for safety sake and for your families, I recommend > getting training before doing anything you have not done before, > but, legally, I, or any other inspector, may not be able to do > anything about it if you do. > > Mike Robertson > > From: stein@steinair.com > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:26:04 -0500 > > Bill, you've been around this list for many years and you know > better than to behave like that. There is no call for that at all. > > Mike is both a well respected aviator as well as a respected FAA > employee. > > Cheers, > Stein > > do not archive this drivel. > > _________________________________________ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or > privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or > other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this > information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the > sender and delete the material from any computer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > ]On Behalf Of RV6ator@aol.com > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:11 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Loop problem --- the rest of the story. > > HEY DICKWEED, A LOOP IS AN AEROBATIC MANUEVER, AEROBATIC MANUEVERS > SHOULD BE PERFORMED IN AIRCRAFT THAT IS CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS, > LAST TIME I CHECKED A CHEROKEE WAS NOT APPROVED FOR AEROBATICS. BUT > HEY, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, BETTER YET GO KILL YOURSELF. PLENTY OF > ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE CRASHED AND BURNED WITH INNOCENT PASSENGERS > ONBOARD> > In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:48:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mrobert569@hotmail.com > writes: -- Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:53 PM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage No comment needed at this point. You pretty much said it all. But just because it may be legal does not make it smart. I highly encourag e getting training in ANY manuver of any type of aircraft that you have not done before. I=2C too=2C have lost friends doing stupid things and don't want to lose any more. But please remember=2C as in this discussion=2C the re can be a difference between what is leagl and what is smart and safe. Mike Robertson > Date: Tue=2C 1 Sep 2009 20:59:21 -0400 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > From: larywil@comcast.net > Subject: RV-List: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage > > > > Boy=2C I was ready to quit Matt's list because of the onset of boredom. > Thanks for saving me RV6ator Bill. > > So=2C I think DICKWEED and ASSHOLE is actually part of the recipe for > the sausage that we sometimes get at the local air show. I'm sure > Bill had too many of them at 'Kosh=2C and he accidently regurgitated > them in his post. > > OK=2C back to the subject. I do NOT believe that the FAA defines an > aerobatic aircraft. They do define aerobatics ( or aerobatic > maneuvers ). They do this because there are restrictions on when and > where you may perform aerobatics. > > As Mike pointed out=2C the FAA does make it clear that you may not > exceed the limitations stated in the manual=2C makings and placard. So=2C > if an aircraft is approved for=2C say +3 and -1.5 G's=2C and the manual =2C > markings=2C and placards do not specifically prohibit a loop=2C then I > suppose you may legally perform loops the aircraft ( if you are in an > FAA permitted area). > > That being said=2C you would still be considered a moron if you tried > to loop the aforementioned aircraft. You might get away with it a few > times=2C but..... > > Mike=2C would you care to comment. > > > > > Louis I Willig > 1640 Oakwood Dr. > Penn Valley=2C PA 19072 > 610 668-4964 > RV-4=2C N180PF > 190HP IO-360=2C C/S prop > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:01 PM PST US From: RV6ator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage hey guys, aircraft are CERTIFIED in a variety of CATEGORIES, normal, utility, aerobatic, experimental, experimental exhibition, and restricted. Most Cessna/Piper/Beech and other production aircraft are certified normal category and can be flown in the utility category at reduced gross weights, to allow for higher G-loading. An Aerobatic category aircraft has to meet certain requirments, including a quick egress system. For example Cessna built a 152 Aerobat for several years, it included larger C-172 struts, a beefier tail, and quick release doors. get the idea. bill mahoney In a message dated 9/2/2009 8:26:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mrobert569@hotmail.com writes: No comment needed at this point. You pretty much said it all. But just because it may be legal does not make it smart. I highly encourage getting training in ANY maneuver of any type of aircraft that you have not done before. I, too, have lost friends doing stupid things and don't want to lose any more. But please remember, as in this discussion, there can be a difference between what is legal and what is smart and safe. Mike Robertson > Date: Tues, 1 Sep 2009 20:59:21 -0400 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > From: larywil@comcast.net > Subject: RV-List: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage > > > > Boy, I was ready to quit Matt's list because of the onset of boredom. > Thanks for saving me RV6ator Bill. > > So, I think DICKWEED and ASSHOLE is actually part of the recipe for > the sausage that we sometimes get at the local air show. I'm sure > Bill had too many of them at 'Kosh, and he accidentally regurgitated > them in his post. > > OK, back to the subject. I do NOT believe that the FAA defines an > aerobatic aircraft. They do define aerobatics ( or aerobatic > maneuvers ). They do this because there are restrictions on when and > where you may perform aerobatics. > > As Mike pointed out, the FAA does make it clear that you may not > exceed the limitations stated in the manual, makings and placard. So, > if an aircraft is approved for, say +3 and -1.5 G's, and the manual, > markings, and placards do not specifically prohibit a loop, then I > suppose you may legally perform loops the aircraft ( if you are in an > FAA permitted area). > > That being said, you would still be considered a moron if you tried > to loop the aforementioned aircraft. You might get away with it a few > times, but..... > > Mike, would you care to comment. > > > > > Louis I Willig > 1640 Oakwood Dr. > Penn Valley, PA 19072 > 610 668-4964 > RV-4, N180PF > 190HP IO-36====================== > > > ____________________________________ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. _Click here._ (http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:10 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage The fact that Mr Mahoney is still posting here makes me think that the list has finally "jumped the shark" RV6ator@aol.com wrote: > hey guys, aircraft are CERTIFIED in a variety of CATEGORIES, normal, > utility, aerobatic, experimental, experimental exhibition, and > restricted. Most Cessna/Piper/Beech and other production aircraft are > certified normal category and can be flown in the utility category at > reduced gross weights, to allow for higher G-loading. An Aerobatic > category aircraft has to meet certain requirments, including a quick > egress system. For example Cessna built a 152 Aerobat for several > years, it included larger C-172 struts, a beefier tail, and quick > release doors. get the idea. > > bill mahoney > > In a message dated 9/2/2009 8:26:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > mrobert569@hotmail.com writes: > > No comment needed at this point. You pretty much said it all. > > But just because it may be legal does not make it smart. I highly > encourage getting training in ANY maneuver of any type of aircraft > that you have not done before. I, too, have lost friends doing > stupid things and don't want to lose any more. But please > remember, as in this discussion, there can be a difference between > what is legal and what is smart and safe. > > Mike Robertson > > > Date: Tues, 1 Sep 2009 20:59:21 -0400 > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > From: larywil@comcast.net > > Subject: RV-List: Aerobatics in a 140 and the recipe for sausage > > > > > > > > Boy, I was ready to quit Matt's list because of the onset of > boredom. > > Thanks for saving me RV6ator Bill. > > > > So, I think DICKWEED and ASSHOLE is actually part of the recipe for > > the sausage that we sometimes get at the local air show. I'm sure > > Bill had too many of them at 'Kosh, and he accidentally > regurgitated > > them in his post. > > > > OK, back to the subject. I do NOT believe that the FAA defines an > > aerobatic aircraft. They do define aerobatics ( or aerobatic > > maneuvers ). They do this because there are restrictions on when > and > > where you may perform aerobatics. > > > > As Mike pointed out, the FAA does make it clear that you may not > > exceed the limitations stated in the manual, makings and > placard. So, > > if an aircraft is approved for, say +3 and -1.5 G's, and the > manual, > > markings, and placards do not specifically prohibit a loop, then I > > suppose you may legally perform loops the aircraft ( if you are > in an > > FAA permitted area). > > > > That being said, you would still be considered a moron if you tried > > to loop the aforementioned aircraft. You might get away with it > a few > > times, but..... > > > > Mike, would you care to comment. > > > > > > > > > > Louis I Willig > > 1640 Oakwood Dr. > > Penn Valley, PA 19072 > > 610 668-4964 > > RV-4, N180PF > > 190HP IO-36====================== > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. > Click here. > > * > > =================================== > ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > =================================== > ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * > > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.