Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:43 AM - Re: At long last, First Flight. (charlie heathco)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: At long last, First Flight. (Ed Anderson)
3. 07:41 AM - Re: High oil pressure indications (Bubblehead)
4. 09:05 AM - Re: Vetterman Exhaust Hangars (Matt Dralle)
5. 09:56 AM - WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project (Tim Olson)
6. 10:39 AM - Re: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project (Robin Marks)
7. 11:10 AM - Re: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project (Mike DeVouge)
8. 03:56 PM - RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend (rv6160hp@aol.com)
9. 06:46 PM - Re: At long last, First Flight. (charlie heathco)
10. 07:23 PM - Tires on 6a (charlie heathco)
11. 07:48 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Larry Bowen)
12. 08:08 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Linn Walters)
13. 08:17 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Hedrick)
14. 08:46 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Kelly McMullen)
15. 09:05 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (charlie heathco)
16. 09:56 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Don)
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Subject: | Re: At long last, First Flight. |
OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his
name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 09:09
Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Thanks Charlie.
The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened
in a previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction
drive to a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the
opposite direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further
into its power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff (
running fixed pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction
P factor, I almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff
(cleared it by inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually
rather than firewalling it immediately as I had done in the past. That
was with a 200 HP engine so I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap.
On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel
flow reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 .
Assuming all other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the
same amount of fuel as a small one when making the same power. That
was the goal on this first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP
later.
On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after the
oil cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are 100%
cooled by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings that
get damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil
consumption results and requires a complete teardown to replace the
O-rings. Rotors have combustion chambers on three faces and they don't
get a whole revolution just to cool off like a piston does. But on
the other hand they are made of iron instead of aluminum. The oil
temps are typically 40 degrees higher in the pan prior to going through
the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's oil temp is measured in the pan. On a
'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd like to see 180 F on both oil and
coolant.
Tracy Crook
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net>
wrote:
Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2
thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg
on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on
coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 20:44
Subject: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8
but flight test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is
a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B
makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in
the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying
an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the
cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in
flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for
some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both
worked with no problems, which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor
was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be
premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8
has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has
no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear
intersection fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the
same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure
but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on
the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder
authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke
ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates
off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence
on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the
longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading
and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing
area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under
the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before
during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not
matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end
of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the
airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of
seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4)
in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the
event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with
only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless
even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for
information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument
panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed
ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The
EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the
same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk
of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed
indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display
either. Glad I did all that practice.
Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had
taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil
& water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data
hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that
they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very
disappointing, since they had been well below this on the ground when at
the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to
5.75 gph by this time).
The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able
to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels
like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise,
the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing
about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4.
The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been
preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position
to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that
the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing
is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier
engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than
the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about
the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop.
Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight
control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW
throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all.
The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me
from data gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a
data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and
setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the
airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI
to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I
glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong.
All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly
the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to
do.
Tracy Crook
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
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Subject: | At long last, First Flight. |
Thanks Chas,
Tracy and I have know each other since about 1995 - and I was delighted to
see his third rotary engine type (a three rotor capable of 300 HP) powering
his new
RV-8. His light weight rotary powered RV-4 was the winner of the Sun & Fun
100 air race back in 2003 or so, I expect the Rv-8 follows in its smaller
brother's footsteps.
Tracy's RV-8 is truly an impressive bit of engineering with the equipment
and changes he has made.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his name
right now, maybe he will respond, Chas
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy <mailto:tracy@rotaryaviation.com> Crook
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 09:09
Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Thanks Charlie.
The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened in a
previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction drive to
a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the opposite
direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further into its
power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff ( running fixed
pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction P factor, I
almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff (cleared it by
inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually rather than firewalling
it immediately as I had done in the past. That was with a 200 HP engine so
I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap.
On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel flow
reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 . Assuming all
other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the same amount of
fuel as a small one when making the same power. That was the goal on this
first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP later.
On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after the oil
cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are 100% cooled
by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings that get
damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil consumption
results and requires a complete teardown to replace the O-rings. Rotors have
combustion chambers on three faces and they don't get a whole revolution
just to cool off like a piston does. But on the other hand they are made
of iron instead of aluminum. The oil temps are typically 40 degrees
higher in the pan prior to going through the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's
oil temp is measured in the pan. On a 'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd
like to see 180 F on both oil and coolant.
Tracy Crook
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net> wrote:
Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2 thotle? Is
this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg on oil is not
a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on coolant run that high or
even higher? Charlie H
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook <mailto:tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 20:44
Subject: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight
test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor
version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP
in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it
came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda
13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling
system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight.
Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I
had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no
problems, which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no
worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature
because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25
degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset.
First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection
fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel
flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the
throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels
more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's
physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the
same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates
off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4
with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended
both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than
on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually
the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off
ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching
the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway
(2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is
climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants
takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of
today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or
complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for
backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8
GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due
to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the
primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I
finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI &
Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100
MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing
sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the
display either. Glad I did all that practice.
Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had taken off
with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil & water temps
nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data hoping the temps
will start coming down but it is soon apparent that they are stabilizing at
about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very disappointing, since they had been
well below this on the ground when at the same fuel flow I was currently
flying at (I had backed it down to 5.75 gph by this time).
The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able to trim
out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels like it is
gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise, the plane feels
just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing about 135 mph) the
roll response is only slightly slower than the -4. The ailerons were
extended with the wing so the RV feel has been preserved. I've completed a
wide circuit of the pattern and in position to make an approach so I
throttle back and I can immediately tell that the glide ratio is
significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing is having more effect
than I thought it would even with the heavier engine. This -8 with a 20B
ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than the average one equipped with an
0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about the same as one equipped with an IO -
360 with constant speed prop. Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All
the attention to weight control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around
and the FBW throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all.
The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me from data
gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a data logging
EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and setup for an
approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the airspeed and excess
glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI to avoid being
confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I glance at the ASI
and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong.
All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly the
airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to do.
Tracy Crook
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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avigator?RV-List
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Message 3
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Subject: | Re: High oil pressure indications |
I have an EIS-4000 from Grand Rapids and am having the same problem. It started
after I changed oil and filter and had pulled and checked the screen. I've
test flown it twice and oil temperatures and power and CHTs were same as always
so I don't think I have an oil flow problem but would feel better if the indication
was normal too.
I emailed GRT and got a nice reply saying that if the sensor is not well grounded
it will show 99 psi. They recommended I check all the connections. When I
installed the sensor last winter I put a small aluminum tab between the case
of the sensor and the Adel clamp, and ran a separate ground wire. Perhaps the
tab has loosened a bit and the ground has gotten flaky. I will check the connections
next time at the airport.
GRT also said that you should not use tape between the oil hose and the sensor
so that the sensor can ground through the hose to the engine.
--------
John Dalman
Elburn, IL
RV-8 N247TD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262053#262053
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Vetterman Exhaust Hangars |
Let us know what Larry has to say. Maybe post some pictures when you've figured
it out...
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #8288- N998RV
http://www.mykitlog.com/dralle
Finishing Up The Cowling...
At 06:19 AM 9/8/2009 Tuesday, you wrote:
>Thanks Matt. Beautiful installation. The mount on the 7 is quite a bit different
than the 8 by the looks of things but the concept of the hangars is the same.
I'm going to give Larry a call today to see what he recommends. I'm probably
just missing something but I'm also concerned that the hangar is going to
interfer with the location of the scat tube for the heat muff. I didn't see
where you had your heat muff installed yet. On my setup, the instructions say
to put it over tubes 1&3 (it's a double heat muff) as far aft next to the hangar
bracket as you can. Since it's a double muff, you can't rotate it on the
pipe, and the heat outlet would be right under one of the hangar rods. I'm sure
Larry has an answer - I can't be the first.
>
>Thanks again.
>
>Tim Popp
>RV-7 N963P
><mailto:C172.58@JUNO.COM>C172.58@JUNO.COM
>
>=======================================================
>
>Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US
>From: Matt Dralle <<http://webmaila.juno.com/webmail/new/8?folder=Inbox&msgNum=00000PW0:001AdWJ_00000Xg^&block=1&msgNature=all&msgStatus=all&count=1252414493&content=central#>dralle@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Vetterman Exhaust Hangars
>
>I have the 4-into-4 Vetterman exhaust on my RV-8. The instructions stated to
mount
>the hangers to the engine mount. Here are some pictures of my installation.
>There might be more options on the RV-7, don't know.
>
>Matt Dralle
>RV-8 #82880 N998RV
><http://www.mykitlog.com/dralle>http://www.mykitlog.com/dralle
>
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Subject: | WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project |
I'm getting the fever again after not building for a while.
If you have or know of an RV-7A project that has been given
up on, I'd be interested to hear more. Just shoot me an
offline email.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
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Subject: | WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project |
Tim,
Why don't you consider building an RV-3B? Fast, pure flying and
no pre-punch so you can have many, many more hours of building plus a
much smaller panel to save on avionics expense!
I know, I know I should talk, I purchased a partially built
RV-8A before the -10 was flying because I LOVED my 6A so much I wasn't
sure the -10 would scratch that itch. Turns out the -10 pretty much does
satisfy that RV fix. I believe the RV-Grin is universal across the model
line from 3-12.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project
I'm getting the fever again after not building for a while.
If you have or know of an RV-7A project that has been given
up on, I'd be interested to hear more. Just shoot me an
offline email.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
09/08/09 06:48:00
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Subject: | Re: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project |
Hi Tim I have an RV6 early 90 Kit complete with finish kit with an 0320 160
HP 680 hr on the engine 85Hr since the top end was changed to 160 Hp all
excesariees included also comes with Vetterman excust and brand new
Sensanich propeller. This is a real good deal at $23.000.00 Canadian If your
interested I am in Edmonton Alberta Canada Please Call 1-780-903-7663
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 10:40 AM
Subject: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project
>
> I'm getting the fever again after not building for a while.
> If you have or know of an RV-7A project that has been given
> up on, I'd be interested to hear more. Just shoot me an
> offline email.
>
> --
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
>
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Subject: | RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend |
SO.... I returned to KFZY from my long weekend,...with a nail biter out of 0W3
Maryland to there...
The south east & coast was a mess today kept me floating around at 3000 & 2500
just under hard covered ceilings........ .........
Anyhow ran into Mike Seager arriving there from the West Coast in the RV7....GAME
ON!
Hope to see some of you there this weekend
Regards
David McManmon
RV6 builder flying-pilot.
-----Original Message-----
From: rv6160hp@aol.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:10 pm
Subject: RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend
EAA 486 at:
http://www.eaachapter486.com/
RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend.
I assume ya'll have heard and are informed.. but in case you haven't heard of this:
Highlights to include Mike Seager giving lessons in the Factory RV and the NE RV12
rep scheduled...
Read more at:
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=109
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=113&Itemid=110
http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114&Itemid=113
Hope you can make it, pray for VFR and lots of planes!
Regards
David McManmon
RV6 builder flying-pilot.
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Subject: | Re: At long last, First Flight. |
Thanks Ed, sorry I couldnt think of your name. I remember yourr storyu
about your long dead stick landing a few years ago. How many HP does
your rotary have? Aslo Do you know how Tracy's engind stacks up against
Mikes 540 in his super 8? Charlie Heathco
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 07:47
Subject: RE: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Thanks Chas,
Tracy and I have know each other since about 1995 - and I was
delighted to see his third rotary engine type (a three rotor capable of
300 HP) powering his new
RV-8. His light weight rotary powered RV-4 was the winner of the Sun
& Fun 100 air race back in 2003 or so, I expect the Rv-8 follows in its
smaller brother's footsteps.
Tracy's RV-8 is truly an impressive bit of engineering with the
equipment and changes he has made.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:41 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of
his name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 09:09
Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Thanks Charlie.
The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened
in a previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction
drive to a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the
opposite direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further
into its power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff (
running fixed pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction
P factor, I almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff
(cleared it by inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually
rather than firewalling it immediately as I had done in the past. That
was with a 200 HP engine so I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap.
On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel
flow reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 .
Assuming all other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the
same amount of fuel as a small one when making the same power. That
was the goal on this first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP
later.
On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after
the oil cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are
100% cooled by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings
that get damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil
consumption results and requires a complete teardown to replace the
O-rings. Rotors have combustion chambers on three faces and they don't
get a whole revolution just to cool off like a piston does. But on
the other hand they are made of iron instead of aluminum. The oil
temps are typically 40 degrees higher in the pan prior to going through
the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's oil temp is measured in the pan. On a
'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd like to see 180 F on both oil and
coolant.
Tracy Crook
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net>
wrote:
Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2
thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg
on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on
coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 20:44
Subject: RV-List: At long last, First Flight.
Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8
but flight test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is
a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B
makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in
the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying
an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the
cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in
flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for
some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both
worked with no problems, which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor
was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be
premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8
has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has
no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear
intersection fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the
same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure
but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on
the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder
authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke
ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates
off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence
on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the
longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading
and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing
area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under
the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before
during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not
matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end
of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the
airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of
seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4)
in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the
event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with
only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless
even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for
information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument
panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed
ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The
EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the
same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk
of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed
indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display
either. Glad I did all that practice.
Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had
taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil
& water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data
hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that
they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very
disappointing, since they had been well below this on the ground when at
the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to
5.75 gph by this time).
The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able
to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels
like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise,
the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing
about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4.
The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been
preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position
to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that
the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing
is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier
engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than
the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about
the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop.
Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight
control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW
throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all.
The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me
from data gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a
data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and
setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the
airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI
to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I
glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong.
All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly
the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to
do.
Tracy Crook
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LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to
replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a
while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like
they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any
recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie
H
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I like the retreads from Dresser.
http://www.desser.com/
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net> wrote:
> LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to
> replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while
> back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are
> about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to
> better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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I bought recaps from Desser at Sun-N-Fun .....they offered a discount
and no shipping. I also bought tubes with 90 degree stems for easier
access through a small hole in the wheel pant.
Linn
charlie heathco wrote:
> LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to
> replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a
> while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like
> they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any
> recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H
>
> *
>
>
> *
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Just make sure that the retreads will fit under your wheel pants. They
have a larger diameter.
Keith Hedrick
3LF
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a
I like the retreads from Dresser.
http://www.desser.com/
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net> wrote:
LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to replacement.
they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while back, seems the
present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are about $20 more now
t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to better wearing
brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
06:48:00
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Only the Monster Retreads are larger. Their regular Desser retread is
standard TSO size. I've been using them for 10 years on my Mooney...no
issues with room in the wheel wells.
Hedrick wrote:
> Just make sure that the retreads will fit under your wheel pants. They
> have a larger diameter.
>
>
>
> Keith Hedrick
>
> 3LF
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry Bowen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:37 PM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a
>
>
>
> I like the retreads from Dresser.
>
> http://www.desser.com/
>
>
> --
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net
> <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>> wrote:
>
> LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to
> replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a
> while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like
> they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any
> recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> 270.13.83/2353 - Release Date: 09/08/09 06:48:00
>
> *
>
>
> *
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Now ive forgoten what the tire size is on my mains, looked in log and all I
said was I installed he condors, didnt put six\ze. arent they 600-6? Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 22:44
Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a
Only the Monster Retreads are larger. Their regular Desser retread is
standard TSO size. I've been using them for 10 years on my Mooney...no
issues with room in the wheel wells.
Hedrick wrote:
> Just make sure that the retreads will fit under your wheel pants. They
> have a larger diameter.
>
>
> Keith Hedrick
>
> 3LF
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry Bowen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:37 PM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a
>
>
> I like the retreads from Dresser.
>
> http://www.desser.com/
>
>
> --
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco <cheathco@cox.net
> <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>> wrote:
>
> LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to
> replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a
> while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like
> they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any
> recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> 270.13.83/2353 - Release Date: 09/08/09 06:48:00
>
> *
>
>
> *
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I have not had to change tires yet, but I think Gary Sobeck recommended
retreads from Wilkerson Tires http://www.wilkersonaircrafttires.com/
Don van Santen
RV7 Flying
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 7:22 PM
Subject: RV-List: Tires on 6a
LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to replacement.
they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while back, seems the
present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are about $20 more now
t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to better wearing
brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H
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