---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/08/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:43 AM - Re: At long last, First Flight. (charlie heathco) 2. 05:54 AM - Re: At long last, First Flight. (Ed Anderson) 3. 07:41 AM - Re: High oil pressure indications (Bubblehead) 4. 09:05 AM - Re: Vetterman Exhaust Hangars (Matt Dralle) 5. 09:56 AM - WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project (Tim Olson) 6. 10:39 AM - Re: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project (Robin Marks) 7. 11:10 AM - Re: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project (Mike DeVouge) 8. 03:56 PM - RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend (rv6160hp@aol.com) 9. 06:46 PM - Re: At long last, First Flight. (charlie heathco) 10. 07:23 PM - Tires on 6a (charlie heathco) 11. 07:48 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Larry Bowen) 12. 08:08 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Linn Walters) 13. 08:17 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Hedrick) 14. 08:46 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Kelly McMullen) 15. 09:05 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (charlie heathco) 16. 09:56 PM - Re: Tires on 6a (Don) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:44 AM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 09:09 Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Thanks Charlie. The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened in a previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction drive to a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the opposite direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further into its power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff ( running fixed pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction P factor, I almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff (cleared it by inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually rather than firewalling it immediately as I had done in the past. That was with a 200 HP engine so I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap. On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel flow reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 . Assuming all other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the same amount of fuel as a small one when making the same power. That was the goal on this first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP later. On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after the oil cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are 100% cooled by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings that get damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil consumption results and requires a complete teardown to replace the O-rings. Rotors have combustion chambers on three faces and they don't get a whole revolution just to cool off like a piston does. But on the other hand they are made of iron instead of aluminum. The oil temps are typically 40 degrees higher in the pan prior to going through the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's oil temp is measured in the pan. On a 'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd like to see 180 F on both oil and coolant. Tracy Crook On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco wrote: Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2 thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 20:44 Subject: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it. For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT. Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems, which is always a surprise. High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings. Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test. Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice. Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil & water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very disappointing, since they had been well below this on the ground when at the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to 5.75 gph by this time). The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise, the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4. The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop. Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all. The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me from data gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong. All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to do. Tracy Crook href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List a>http://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:34 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: RE: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Thanks Chas, Tracy and I have know each other since about 1995 - and I was delighted to see his third rotary engine type (a three rotor capable of 300 HP) powering his new RV-8. His light weight rotary powered RV-4 was the winner of the Sun & Fun 100 air race back in 2003 or so, I expect the Rv-8 follows in its smaller brother's footsteps. Tracy's RV-8 is truly an impressive bit of engineering with the equipment and changes he has made. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:41 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 09:09 Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Thanks Charlie. The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened in a previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction drive to a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the opposite direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further into its power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff ( running fixed pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction P factor, I almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff (cleared it by inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually rather than firewalling it immediately as I had done in the past. That was with a 200 HP engine so I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap. On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel flow reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 . Assuming all other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the same amount of fuel as a small one when making the same power. That was the goal on this first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP later. On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after the oil cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are 100% cooled by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings that get damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil consumption results and requires a complete teardown to replace the O-rings. Rotors have combustion chambers on three faces and they don't get a whole revolution just to cool off like a piston does. But on the other hand they are made of iron instead of aluminum. The oil temps are typically 40 degrees higher in the pan prior to going through the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's oil temp is measured in the pan. On a 'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd like to see 180 F on both oil and coolant. Tracy Crook On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco wrote: Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2 thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 20:44 Subject: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it. For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT. Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems, which is always a surprise. High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings. Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test. Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice. Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil & water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very disappointing, since they had been well below this on the ground when at the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to 5.75 gph by this time). The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise, the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4. The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop. Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all. The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me from data gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong. All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to do. Tracy Crook href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List a>http://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:37 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: High oil pressure indications From: "Bubblehead" I have an EIS-4000 from Grand Rapids and am having the same problem. It started after I changed oil and filter and had pulled and checked the screen. I've test flown it twice and oil temperatures and power and CHTs were same as always so I don't think I have an oil flow problem but would feel better if the indication was normal too. I emailed GRT and got a nice reply saying that if the sensor is not well grounded it will show 99 psi. They recommended I check all the connections. When I installed the sensor last winter I put a small aluminum tab between the case of the sensor and the Adel clamp, and ran a separate ground wire. Perhaps the tab has loosened a bit and the ground has gotten flaky. I will check the connections next time at the airport. GRT also said that you should not use tape between the oil hose and the sensor so that the sensor can ground through the hose to the engine. -------- John Dalman Elburn, IL RV-8 N247TD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262053#262053 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:02 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: RV-List: Vetterman Exhaust Hangars Let us know what Larry has to say. Maybe post some pictures when you've figured it out... Matt Dralle RV-8 #8288- N998RV http://www.mykitlog.com/dralle Finishing Up The Cowling... At 06:19 AM 9/8/2009 Tuesday, you wrote: >Thanks Matt. Beautiful installation. The mount on the 7 is quite a bit different than the 8 by the looks of things but the concept of the hangars is the same. I'm going to give Larry a call today to see what he recommends. I'm probably just missing something but I'm also concerned that the hangar is going to interfer with the location of the scat tube for the heat muff. I didn't see where you had your heat muff installed yet. On my setup, the instructions say to put it over tubes 1&3 (it's a double heat muff) as far aft next to the hangar bracket as you can. Since it's a double muff, you can't rotate it on the pipe, and the heat outlet would be right under one of the hangar rods. I'm sure Larry has an answer - I can't be the first. > >Thanks again. > >Tim Popp >RV-7 N963P >C172.58@JUNO.COM > >======================================================= > >Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US >From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Vetterman Exhaust Hangars > >I have the 4-into-4 Vetterman exhaust on my RV-8. The instructions stated to mount >the hangers to the engine mount. Here are some pictures of my installation. >There might be more options on the RV-7, don't know. > >Matt Dralle >RV-8 #82880 N998RV >http://www.mykitlog.com/dralle > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:30 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project I'm getting the fever again after not building for a while. If you have or know of an RV-7A project that has been given up on, I'd be interested to hear more. Just shoot me an offline email. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project From: "Robin Marks" Tim, Why don't you consider building an RV-3B? Fast, pure flying and no pre-punch so you can have many, many more hours of building plus a much smaller panel to save on avionics expense! I know, I know I should talk, I purchased a partially built RV-8A before the -10 was flying because I LOVED my 6A so much I wasn't sure the -10 would scratch that itch. Turns out the -10 pretty much does satisfy that RV fix. I believe the RV-Grin is universal across the model line from 3-12. Robin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project I'm getting the fever again after not building for a while. If you have or know of an RV-7A project that has been given up on, I'd be interested to hear more. Just shoot me an offline email. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/08/09 06:48:00 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:52 AM PST US From: "Mike DeVouge" Subject: Re: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project Hi Tim I have an RV6 early 90 Kit complete with finish kit with an 0320 160 HP 680 hr on the engine 85Hr since the top end was changed to 160 Hp all excesariees included also comes with Vetterman excust and brand new Sensanich propeller. This is a real good deal at $23.000.00 Canadian If your interested I am in Edmonton Alberta Canada Please Call 1-780-903-7663 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 10:40 AM Subject: RV-List: WTB (Possibly): RV-7A abandoned project > > I'm getting the fever again after not building for a while. > If you have or know of an RV-7A project that has been given > up on, I'd be interested to hear more. Just shoot me an > offline email. > > -- > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:55 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend From: rv6160hp@aol.com SO.... I returned to KFZY from my long weekend,...with a nail biter out of 0W3 Maryland to there... The south east & coast was a mess today kept me floating around at 3000 & 2500 just under hard covered ceilings........ ......... Anyhow ran into Mike Seager arriving there from the West Coast in the RV7....GAME ON! Hope to see some of you there this weekend Regards David McManmon RV6 builder flying-pilot. -----Original Message----- From: rv6160hp@aol.com Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:10 pm Subject: RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend EAA 486 at: http://www.eaachapter486.com/ RV Forum KFZY - Oswego CO,NY Sept 11-12-13 weekend. I assume ya'll have heard and are informed.. but in case you haven't heard of this: Highlights to include Mike Seager giving lessons in the Factory RV and the NE RV12 rep scheduled... Read more at: http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=109 http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=113&Itemid=110 http://www.eaachapter486.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114&Itemid=113 Hope you can make it, pray for VFR and lots of planes! Regards David McManmon RV6 builder flying-pilot. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:06 PM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Thanks Ed, sorry I couldnt think of your name. I remember yourr storyu about your long dead stick landing a few years ago. How many HP does your rotary have? Aslo Do you know how Tracy's engind stacks up against Mikes 540 in his super 8? Charlie Heathco ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 07:47 Subject: RE: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Thanks Chas, Tracy and I have know each other since about 1995 - and I was delighted to see his third rotary engine type (a three rotor capable of 300 HP) powering his new RV-8. His light weight rotary powered RV-4 was the winner of the Sun & Fun 100 air race back in 2003 or so, I expect the Rv-8 follows in its smaller brother's footsteps. Tracy's RV-8 is truly an impressive bit of engineering with the equipment and changes he has made. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:41 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 09:09 Subject: Re: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Thanks Charlie. The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened in a previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction drive to a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the opposite direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further into its power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff ( running fixed pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction P factor, I almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff (cleared it by inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually rather than firewalling it immediately as I had done in the past. That was with a 200 HP engine so I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap. On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel flow reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 . Assuming all other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the same amount of fuel as a small one when making the same power. That was the goal on this first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP later. On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after the oil cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are 100% cooled by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings that get damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil consumption results and requires a complete teardown to replace the O-rings. Rotors have combustion chambers on three faces and they don't get a whole revolution just to cool off like a piston does. But on the other hand they are made of iron instead of aluminum. The oil temps are typically 40 degrees higher in the pan prior to going through the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's oil temp is measured in the pan. On a 'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd like to see 180 F on both oil and coolant. Tracy Crook On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco wrote: Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2 thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 20:44 Subject: RV-List: At long last, First Flight. Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it. For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT. Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems, which is always a surprise. High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings. Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test. Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice. Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil & water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very disappointing, since they had been well below this on the ground when at the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to 5.75 gph by this time). The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise, the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4. The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop. Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all. The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me from data gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong. All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to do. Tracy Crook href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.mat ronics.com/c t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Lista>http://forums.ma tronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.mat ronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp ://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:16 PM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: RV-List: Tires on 6a LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a From: Larry Bowen I like the retreads from Dresser. http://www.desser.com/ -- Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco wrote: > LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to > replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while > back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are > about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to > better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:36 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a I bought recaps from Desser at Sun-N-Fun .....they offered a discount and no shipping. I also bought tubes with 90 degree stems for easier access through a small hole in the wheel pant. Linn charlie heathco wrote: > LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to > replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a > while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like > they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any > recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:41 PM PST US From: "Hedrick" Subject: RE: RV-List: Tires on 6a Just make sure that the retreads will fit under your wheel pants. They have a larger diameter. Keith Hedrick 3LF _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:37 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a I like the retreads from Dresser. http://www.desser.com/ -- Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco wrote: LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 06:48:00 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:26 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a Only the Monster Retreads are larger. Their regular Desser retread is standard TSO size. I've been using them for 10 years on my Mooney...no issues with room in the wheel wells. Hedrick wrote: > Just make sure that the retreads will fit under your wheel pants. They > have a larger diameter. > > > > Keith Hedrick > > 3LF > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry Bowen > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:37 PM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a > > > > I like the retreads from Dresser. > > http://www.desser.com/ > > > -- > Larry Bowen > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco > wrote: > > LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to > replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a > while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like > they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any > recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H > > * * > > * * > > *t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > *tp://forums.matronics.com* > > *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > 270.13.83/2353 - Release Date: 09/08/09 06:48:00 > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:27 PM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a Now ive forgoten what the tire size is on my mains, looked in log and all I said was I installed he condors, didnt put six\ze. arent they 600-6? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 22:44 Subject: Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a Only the Monster Retreads are larger. Their regular Desser retread is standard TSO size. I've been using them for 10 years on my Mooney...no issues with room in the wheel wells. Hedrick wrote: > Just make sure that the retreads will fit under your wheel pants. They > have a larger diameter. > > > Keith Hedrick > > 3LF > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry Bowen > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:37 PM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Tires on 6a > > > I like the retreads from Dresser. > > http://www.desser.com/ > > > -- > Larry Bowen > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM, charlie heathco > wrote: > > LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to > replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a > while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like > they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any > recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H > > * * > > * * > > *t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > *tp://forums.matronics.com* > > *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > 270.13.83/2353 - Release Date: 09/08/09 06:48:00 > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:09 PM PST US From: "Don" Subject: RE: RV-List: Tires on 6a I have not had to change tires yet, but I think Gary Sobeck recommended retreads from Wilkerson Tires http://www.wilkersonaircrafttires.com/ Don van Santen RV7 Flying From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 7:22 PM Subject: RV-List: Tires on 6a LAst preflight I decieded tires(mains)) were getting close to replacement. they are Mich condors, instaled march 05 and rotated a while back, seems the present side wore faster than orig. Looks like they are about $20 more now t at spruuce than 4 years ago. Any recomendatiuons as to better wearing brand and/or where to buy? Charlie H ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.