---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/20/09: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Re: Loop problem (Dale Walter) 2. 05:53 AM - Re: Re: Loop problem (jvanlaak@aol.com) 3. 09:53 AM - Re: CB-1002-H Governor Bracket Installation Photos...? (Matt Dralle) 4. 12:05 PM - Front Mounted Governor vs. Rear Mounted Governor... (Matt Dralle) 5. 06:04 PM - Matching Powder Coating on Van's product (emrath) 6. 06:21 PM - Re: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product (Robert Cutter) 7. 06:42 PM - DIY static port (Charlie England) 8. 07:24 PM - Re: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product (Michael Kraus) 9. 08:03 PM - Painting The Baffling... (Matt Dralle) 10. 08:05 PM - Re: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product (Darrell Reiley) 11. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: Rotary powered RV-8 Cooling test (Hadley Heinrichs) 12. 08:22 PM - Re: Front Mounted Governor vs. Rear Mounted Governor... (wgill10@comcast.net) 13. 08:52 PM - Re: Painting The Baffling... (Jim) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:24 AM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Loop problem I would suggest at least a starting altitude of 4,000 AGL for your introductory split S. 5,000 ft would be even safer. Dale RV6a 1230 hrs GRT S200 0-360 Hartzell -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 11:47 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Loop problem Ok, I am itchi8ng to get up, maybe a window some time tomorrow ----- Original Message ----- From: "camdaddy" Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 21:47 Subject: RV-List: Re: Loop problem It will roll over just fine. It's slow... kinda wallows over, but not bad. Don't let it get too slow and it CAN'T spin b/c for a spin to happen it needs yaw to couple with the stall. Keep the bubble centered and the plane unloaded (stick-wise, I mean, not cargo-wise)... you'll be fine. In fact, I have to really work to get my -4 to spin. It will do it, but I have to hold pro-spin inputs for awhile. Once it spins and I am done, I give the PARE recovery inputs and it pops right out without hesitation. Even with a back seat passenger. The side-by-side RVs I've flown seem to want to spin easier than the -4s I've flown. But I wouldn't be concerned about them being "stubborn" in the spin. But do only what you're comfortable with and listen to that all-important "little voice". ...and keep me posted. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263915#263915 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Loop problem From: jvanlaak@aol.com Two suggestions: First, you may find that making a level, coordinated roll just above stall is actually quite difficult.??Instead, consider?starting at a more "normal" speed like 80 and lifting the nose 20 degrees before rolling you end up with the same condition - inverted at about 60 - with more control authority and less adverse yaw.? The nose wants to fall quickly at low speeds even when "unloaded" especially as you go through knife edge.? Raising the nose give you the room for that to occur before seeing the horizon inverted to confirm you in fact got through 180 degrees of roll.? Otherwise you could find the windshield full of ground and no idea how far you rolled and what direction is the shortest one to right side up. Second, pay attention to CG.? One of the most common mistakes in aviation is to neglect the effect of cg on stalling and spinning characteristics.? When you read somebody telling how hard a Cessna 172 is to stall you see that they only attempt the maneuver with the back seat empty (I think by POH restriction).? But if they happened to inadvertently stall with the seats and baggage area full they would find an entirely different result.? In the case of RVs, the empty CGs vary wildly depending on engine and especially prop (a CSP versus wood prop is huge) and of course the tandems can change greatly with who is sitting where. Explore spinning and other new maneuvers with a forward CG and lots of altitude. Jim -----Original Message----- From: charlie heathco Sent: Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:47 pm Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Loop problem Ok, I am itchi8ng to get up, maybe a window some time tomorrow ----- Original Message ----- From: "camdaddy" Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 21:47 Subject: RV-List: Re: Loop problem It will roll over just fine. It's slow... kinda wallows over, but not bad. Don't let it get too slow and it CAN'T spin b/c for a spin to happen it needs yaw to couple with the stall. Keep the bubble centered and the plane unloaded (stick-wise, I mean, not cargo-wise)... you'll be fine. In fact, I have to really work to get my -4 to spin. It will do it, but I have to hold pro-spin inputs for awhile. Once it spins and I am done, I give the PARE recovery inputs and it pops right out without hesitation. Even with a back seat passenger. The side-by-side RVs I've flown seem to want to spin easier than the -4s I've flown. But I wouldn't be concerned about them being "stubborn" in the spin. But do only what you're comfortable with and listen to that all-important "little voice". ...and keep me posted. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263915#263915 -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:54 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Re: CB-1002-H Governor Bracket Installation Photos...? Thank you for the info, Bill. Looks like the McCauley governor is over 1" taller than the PCU5000. That would explain why I've been having issues with interference with the intake. I came up with a bracket yesterday after 5 tries that seems to work pretty well. On the good side, I'm now getting full throw on the governor and there is no binding whatsoever. In fact, its so free that the spring always pulls it to High RPM setting if I don't have the drag-lock on the throttle quadrant at least a little tight. Both of these are improvements over the Van's bracket. On the downside, the pushrod is just barely clearing the intake's upper inboard corner. I haven't actually mounted the intake yet, so its still too soon to tell the full impact. Speaking of the intake, when I push it into place, its bumping into the main mounting screw busing on the alternator. I've got the standard 60a internally regulated unit from Van's. I'm estimating that I'm going to have to put about a 1/4" deep "channel" into the top right side of the fiberglass intake to get it to fit up onto the throttle body. I wonder what impact that will have on the designed "airflow" of the intake...? There is also a strut that came with the alternator that goes from the front of the alternator bracket to a mounting ear on the starter. There's no way this will fit on with the fiberglass intake in place. I wonder if I can leave it off? I've got the Skytec Inline starter and I already had to cut one of the unused lower mounting ears off of it because it completely interfered with the intake. Man, there sure are a lot of "issues" getting the front part of this IO-390 installed... Is it really that much different in the front than the IO-360? I've read a couple of places where the IO-390 is "a bolt in replacement for the IO-360". Well, yeah, it bolts on, but the front mounted governor and slightly different placement of the alternator and starter make for a lot of custom modifications. Buyer beware. I'll post some pictures of my governor bracket later today if I decide its really going to work. Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com FWF Baffling and Intake... At 06:46 PM 9/19/2009 Saturday, you wrote: >Hello Matt, > > > >The dimensions are indicated in the in the link below. It took three attempts to get the correct prop governor drive ratio and you can certainly use my name to get specs from the latest unit they shipped to me -- excellent folks to deal with. I purchased the governor from Aero Technoligies for $1235...will provide a scanned invoice detailing P/N & S/N, if interested. A friend with a recently first-light RV-7A (BPE 390) purchased a governor from same source (& price) -- no issues whatsoever using. > >http://www.pcu5000.com/pcu5000x_spec.pdf > >As for using stainless steel bracket...it was the strongest with the least weight and no drawing was produced. It was trial & error method when it came to deciding where to drill the holes -- will explain further should you wish to discuss...913-271-0988. > >I hope you found the info on Marc's site helpfull as he really hopes that the info will be helpful to other 390 owners. BTW, I really love this engine...very smooth, powerful and FAST. You will be very happy. Allen has several hours in my plane and hopefully provided his experience. > >Have a great weekend, > >Bill > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Matt Dralle" >To: rv7-list@matronics.com >Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 12:24:29 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central >Subject: RV7-List: Re: CB-1002-H Governor Bracket Installation Photos...? > >--> RV7-List message posted by: "Matt Dralle" > >Hi Bill, > >Do you have a 3D drawing of the bracket you made? Why did you choose steel instead of aluminum? > >Your governor looks a lot shorter than the McCauley. Do you have a 3D drawing of it, by chance? What is the exact model number? What's the height from the boss to the control arm? Where'd you get it from? > >Thanks! > >Matt Dralle >RV-8 #82880 N998RV >http://www.mattsrv8.com > > >wgill10(at)comcast.net wrote: >> Hello Matt, >> >> I didn't use this bracket...made my own. If interested, Go to Marc's site (www.IO-390.com (http://www.IO-390.com)) and see what I did for the governor bracket and front baffles for the front mounted governor pad. Additionally, I could send some higher resolution pictures...just let me know. I have NEVER had any high temp issues...a very fast airplane as well. >> >> FAB Air box: http://www.io-390.com/IO-390.com/AFP_Servo.html (http://www.io-390.com/IO-390.com/AFP_Servo.html) >> Prop Gov Cable/bracket: http://www.io-390.com/IO-390.com/Prop_Gov.html (http://www.io-390.com/IO-390.com/Prop_Gov.html) >> Baffles: http://www.io-390.com/IO-390.com/Baffles_2.html (http://www.io-390.com/IO-390.com/Baffles_2.html) >> >> Good luck, >> >> Bill >> RV-7 N151WP >> BPE IO-390 w/AFP >> >> >> --- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:11 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Front Mounted Governor vs. Rear Mounted Governor... I just discovered something very interesting. The gear ratio is different between a Front mounted governor and a Rear mounted governor - .947 to 1 (front) vs. .866 to 1 (rear). So that means that the McCauley governor that I have that I originally purchased for use with and O-360 won't even work with the IO-390. This page from the PCU5000 web site is very informative: http://www.pcu5000.com/pcu5000x.htm It details the various ratios and what not. I also found a PDF on the dimensions of the MT governor that Van's sells: http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e-1048.pdf This MT governor is also 1" shorter than the McCauley governor similar to the PCU5000: http://www.pcu5000.com/pcu5000x_spec.pdf In this picture of the PCU5000: http://www.pcu5000.com/index_i/hmpg_pic.gif the PCU5000 shows an auxiliary control arm that might be very helpful in pushing the control cable out of the way of the fiberglass intake. Although, I think that just moving the control arm in by 1" compared to the McCauley is going to be plenty. At any rate, I've ordered a PCU5000X number "P-520-029/A-947" for my RV-8/IO-390 combination so hopefully I can move forward on this project... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com Engine Baffling... ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:46 PM PST US From: "emrath" Subject: RV-List: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product Listers, Does anyone have a spray can or two of Cardinal A-4108-GR230 the don't need and would be interested in selling? It appears I'd have to purchase 12 cans from Cardinal which is way more than I need. The touch-up from Van's is not sufficient for my needs. Alternatively, does anyone know of another paint source that might be a close match to the color? Marty in Nashville TN RV-6A about done painting. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:43 PM PST US From: "Robert Cutter" Subject: Re: RV-List: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product A close match, but not perfect, is Ford Tractor Grey from Tractor Supply. I have used it on several parts. Robert Cutter RV7 rear canopy skirts do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "emrath" Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:59 PM Subject: RV-List: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product > > Listers, > Does anyone have a spray can or two of Cardinal A-4108-GR230 the don't > need > and would be interested in selling? It appears I'd have to purchase 12 > cans from Cardinal which is way more than I need. The touch-up from Van's > is > not sufficient for my needs. Alternatively, does anyone know of another > paint source that might be a close match to the color? > > Marty in Nashville TN > RV-6A about done painting. > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:25 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: RV-List: DIY static port This is for the guys that are as cheap as me (I won't pay for the local channels on satellite). Many years ago Kevin Horton clued me in on the need for a raised static port on the 1st RV that I owned. I was able to add it to the existing a/c by cutting the head off an aluminum pop rivet & gluing it over the existing flush port. For the -7, I took a look at some 3/16" pop rivets I have on hand. The diameter works for 1/4" polyethylene tubing, but I didn't like the size of the hole with after the stem was removed. (We've got mud daubers here in MS that will plug virtually any size opening.) So, I dug through a jar of random 'floor sweeping' rivets I acquired somewhere. A universal head 3/16" looked good, if I could get a hole through the center. My neighbor has a lathe, but I decided to try my drill press 1st. I used a 1/16" bit & put the rivet in block with a hole just bigger than its shank. A little Boelube & taking my time got me a hole through the middle of the rivet. I did have to hold the rivet head with my fingers to keep it from spinning. (Professional Scrounger at work; don't try this at home, etc) The item in the photo is my prototype; the working article is a bit longer to better hold the tubing. Oh, and by using a bit of carefully applied heat from a heat gun, you can put a 90 degree bend in polyethylene tubing to get it heading in the right direction after it leaves the rivet. Charlie ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:59 PM PST US From: Michael Kraus Subject: Re: RV-List: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product Vans color match (light grey powdercoat) is a srandard color from PPG - DCC92783 Pearl Gray Sent from my iPhone On Sep 20, 2009, at 8:59 PM, "emrath" wrote: > > Listers, > Does anyone have a spray can or two of Cardinal A-4108-GR230 the > don't need > and would be interested in selling? It appears I'd have to > purchase 12 > cans from Cardinal which is way more than I need. The touch-up from > Van's is > not sufficient for my needs. Alternatively, does anyone know of > another > paint source that might be a close match to the color? > > Marty in Nashville TN > RV-6A about done painting. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:49 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Painting The Baffling... Dear Listers, I had been planning on black anodizing the various engine baffling pieces in keeping with my black-n-chrome theme under the hood. But I'm noticing that the pieces are getting pretty scratched up during all of this extra fitting that's necessary for the IO-390. Since the pieces can't be run through a surfacer first because of the bends, I'm rethinking how good anodizing is really going to look. I know we're not suppose to power coat the 2024-T3 because the curing heat required can un-T3 the 2024, but does it really matter for the baffling? Its not really structural, per say. And if power coating is alright, what effects will the engine compartment heat have on the power coating? There's probably a high-temp power coat, but it would likely require a higher curing temp, and that get's us back to the first sentence of this paragraph... Power coating the baffling would definitely look pretty cool. Has anyone ever chromed their baffling? That would look super cool. Can you chrome 2024-T3? How much would that cost compared to power coating? Am I fussing too much under the hood? ;-) Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com FWF Baffling, Intake, and Governor... ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:28 PM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product Tractor Supply Co. Ford Tractor Gray matched very nicely for me, they sell it in a rattle can. Darrell --- On Sun, 9/20/09, emrath wrote: > From: emrath > Subject: RV-List: Matching Powder Coating on Van's product > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 7:59 PM > "emrath" > > Listers, > Does anyone have a spray can or two of Cardinal > A-4108-GR230 the don't need > and would be interested in selling? It appears > I'd have to purchase 12 > cans from Cardinal which is way more than I need. The > touch-up from Van's is > not sufficient for my needs. Alternatively, does > anyone know of another > paint source that might be a close match to the color? > > Marty in Nashville TN > RV-6A about done painting. > > > > Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:10 PM PST US From: Hadley Heinrichs Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Rotary powered RV-8 Cooling test Tracy, you might want to use a cowl flap to pull more air out...look on the EGG site for specs. the volume of air increased by 80%, brought the numbers down if i recall properly. cheers, Had ________________________________ From: Tracy Crook Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:41:41 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Rotary powered RV-8 Cooling test Thanks for all the encouragement guys. Here's an update on the testing. Been thinking over what to do about the cooling on the 20B rotary powered RV-8. The indications are that I'm getting too much pressure under the cowl but that was only a guess. Without doing a number of time consuming pressure surveys or chopping up the cowl there was no way to be sure it was not something else like too small oil cooler and radiator, inlet diffusers not working as well as I had hoped, inlet shape not right (they had very sharp lips which might be causing separation) or some other unknown. Time is limited before I leave on vacation and I really needed to know the answer before I do. So, last night I made the decision to fly the -8 one more time - This time Without the cowl on. Wish there was someone around to get a pix, must have looked pretty strange. Secured anything that might get blown loose with tie wraps and did the deed. Whoo Hoo! Oil temp 147, coolant temp 161. This on a hot day (92 deg OAT). With the cowl on, they never went below 200 and hovered around 210 most of the time at low throttle. They went up rapidly with more throttle. Obvious conclusion is that I need a better path for the air to leave the cowl. Have read with interest the results of some Lycoming RVs with high oil temps that fixed the problem with louvers (on bottom?) of cowl. Some say they worked great, others had less than good results so not sure that is the answer but ordered a set if nothing else occurs to me. The airplane felt a little draggier , down about 15 MPH at the low throttle setting I used for test so this should be a worst case test. The wheel pants and main gear intersection fairings are also off. Did some brief full throttle climbs and temps stayed under control, oil never exceeding 160 F. Climb is awesome with a deck angle so high it was uncomfortable. Was looking hard at temps so did not note the ROC but it was more than anything else I've flown. My 13B powered RV-4 goes 2500 FPM on a standard day. Tracy Crook __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:23 PM PST US From: wgill10@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Front Mounted Governor vs. Rear Mounted Governor... Hello Matt, I installed the offset arm as well, but found that I needed an additional 0 .5 inch offset -- fabicated from .5 inch aluminum stock. You might find the attached photos helpful. Best regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:03:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: RV-List: Front Mounted Governor vs. Rear Mounted Governor... I just discovered something very interesting. =C2-The gear ratio is diffe rent between a Front mounted governor and a Rear mounted governor - .947 to 1 (front) vs. .866 to 1 (rear). =C2-So that means that the McCauley gove rnor that I have that I originally purchased for use with and O-360 won't e ven work with the IO-390. =C2-This page from the PCU5000 web site is very informative: =C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.pcu5000.com/pcu5000x.htm It details the various ratios and what not. I also found a PDF on the dimensions of the MT governor that Van's sells: =C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e- 1048.pdf This MT governor is also 1" shorter than the McCauley governor similar to t he PCU5000: =C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.pcu5000.com/pcu5000x_spec.pdf In this picture of the PCU5000: =C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.pcu5000.com/index_i/hmpg_pic.gi f the PCU5000 shows an auxiliary control arm that might be very helpful in pu shing the control cable out of the way of the fiberglass intake. =C2-Alth ough, I think that just moving the control arm in by 1" compared to the McC auley is going to be plenty. At any rate, I've ordered a PCU5000X number "P-520-029/A-947" for my RV-8/I O-390 combination so hopefully I can move forward on this project... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com Engine Baffling... =========== =========== MS - =========== e - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:58 PM PST US From: "Jim" Subject: Re: RV-List: Painting The Baffling... Matt, Due to the weather the baffling sees I chose to use paint. With an eye towards keeping weigh down I put on just enough to cover. Aside from the heating issue powder coating tend to be thicker than spay paint. Also I think the spray paint can be touched up easier. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" ; Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:02 PM Subject: RV-List: Painting The Baffling... > > > Dear Listers, > > I had been planning on black anodizing the various engine baffling pieces > in keeping with my black-n-chrome theme under the hood. But I'm noticing > that the pieces are getting pretty scratched up during all of this extra > fitting that's necessary for the IO-390. Since the pieces can't be run > through a surfacer first because of the bends, I'm rethinking how good > anodizing is really going to look. > > I know we're not suppose to power coat the 2024-T3 because the curing heat > required can un-T3 the 2024, but does it really matter for the baffling? > Its not really structural, per say. And if power coating is alright, what > effects will the engine compartment heat have on the power coating? > There's probably a high-temp power coat, but it would likely require a > higher curing temp, and that get's us back to the first sentence of this > paragraph... Power coating the baffling would definitely look pretty > cool. > > Has anyone ever chromed their baffling? That would look super cool. Can > you chrome 2024-T3? How much would that cost compared to power coating? > > Am I fussing too much under the hood? ;-) > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com > FWF Baffling, Intake, and Governor... > > > Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.0.0.19 - 10.004.090). > http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.0.0.19 - 10.004.090). http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.