---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/02/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:28 AM - engine mount washers (charlie heathco) 2. 05:16 AM - Re: engine mount washers (Linn Walters) 3. 05:50 AM - Re: engine mount washers (Linn Walters) 4. 05:50 AM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (N616TB) 5. 07:03 AM - Re: engine mount washers (Kelly McMullen) 6. 07:12 AM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (David Schaefer) 7. 08:10 AM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (N616TB) 8. 08:11 AM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (Dale Ensing) 9. 08:13 AM - Re: engine mount washers (Linn Walters) 10. 08:22 AM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (Linn Walters) 11. 09:21 AM - Re: engine mount washers (John Myers) 12. 10:46 AM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com) 13. 12:25 PM - Re: engine mount washers (Linn Walters) 14. 01:14 PM - RV6 jig (jerry2dt@aol.com) 15. 02:21 PM - Re: engine mount washers (Kelly McMullen) 16. 02:21 PM - Re: RV6 jig (John Bright) 17. 03:25 PM - Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. (George Inman 204 287 8334) 18. 03:32 PM - Re: engine mount washers (J. Mcculley) 19. 05:23 PM - Re: engine mount washers (Paul Rice) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:23 AM PST US From: "charlie heathco" Subject: RV-List: engine mount washers Thanks for the info re washers, now who is the math whiz that knows how thick the washer should be to raise the front 3/8"? I heard mention of cutting a slot to enable sliping behind mount, anyone done this? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:56 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers charlie heathco wrote: > Thanks for the info re washers, now who is the math whiz that knows how > thick the washer should be to raise the front 3/8"? I heard mention of > cutting a slot to enable sliping behind mount, anyone done this? I can't help with the math, but my comment is ..... what can slip in ..... can slip out. Linn do not archive > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:59 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers Changed my mind. Measure from the floor to the prop. Measure how much you want to lift the engine. Pull the lower isolator bolts and shim until you get the sum of the two measurements. Best I can offer. Linn Linn Walters wrote: > > charlie heathco wrote: >> Thanks for the info re washers, now who is the math whiz that knows >> how thick the washer should be to raise the front 3/8"? I heard >> mention of cutting a slot to enable sliping behind mount, anyone done >> this? > I can't help with the math, but my comment is ..... what can slip in > ..... can slip out. > Linn > do not archive > >> >> * >> >> >> * > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:59 AM PST US From: "N616TB" Subject: RE: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. Thanks Everyone for the responses about the tires. I plan to drill a hole in my pants to accept my placing an extension through to air them up as others have suggested. I don't think I will put a door in as I just don't feel like messing with the fiberglass again. Do Not Archive Tim Bryan The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:36 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers Not when supporting 300+lbs of engine, with slot to the bottom. Standard industry practice. Linn Walters wrote: > I can't help with the math, but my comment is ..... what can slip in > ..... can slip out. > Linn > do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:44 AM PST US From: David Schaefer Subject: Re: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. I found an easy way to spot the exact place to drill the hole ... after drilling the main gear l long time ago by 'blind luck' and measuring .. I recently decided I needed to drill the nose wheel which is much tighter and harder to spot. Just take off the pants, get a cheap laser pointer and mount it 4-5' away from the wheel on a small stand (I taped mine to a jack stand and taped it 'on'). Turn the wheel so that the LEVEL laser is pointing at the air valve where you want the hole in the pants... then put the pants back on. The laser will still be pointing to the exact spot where the valve is. Just drill the hole. Don't know why I didn't think of it before. I found the metal plugs at Home Depot. Just an opinion. David W. Schaefer RV-6A N142DS "Nerdgasm" TMX-IO360 Dual-LightSpeed Plasma IIIs, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT HX EFIS On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:46 AM, N616TB wrote: > > Thanks Everyone for the responses about the tires. I plan to drill a hole > in my pants to accept my placing an extension through to air them up as > others have suggested. I don't think I will put a door in as I just don't > feel like messing with the fiberglass again. > > Do Not Archive > > Tim Bryan > The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime! > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:41 AM PST US From: "N616TB" Subject: RE: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. Great Idea. I need one of those laser pointers anyway for presentations I occasionally do. Thanks Do Not Archive Tim Bryan BT Systems The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime! From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Schaefer Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:11 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. I found an easy way to spot the exact place to drill the hole ... after drilling the main gear l long time ago by 'blind luck' and measuring .. I recently decided I needed to drill the nose wheel which is much tighter and harder to spot. Just take off the pants, get a cheap laser pointer and mount it 4-5' away from the wheel on a small stand (I taped mine to a jack stand and taped it 'on'). Turn the wheel so that the LEVEL laser is pointing at the air valve where you want the hole in the pants... then put the pants back on. The laser will still be pointing to the exact spot where the valve is. Just drill the hole. Don't know why I didn't think of it before. I found the metal plugs at Home Depot. Just an opinion. David W. Schaefer RV-6A N142DS "Nerdgasm" TMX-IO360 Dual-LightSpeed Plasma IIIs, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT HX EFIS On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:46 AM, N616TB wrote: Thanks Everyone for the responses about the tires. I plan to drill a hole in my pants to accept my placing an extension through to air them up as others have suggested. I don't think I will put a door in as I just don't feel like messing with the fiberglass again. Do Not Archive Tim Bryan The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime! he Contribution link below to find out more about lder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com s.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, Li - The RV-List Email Forum - : List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List _ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - = --> h Month -- Gifts!) Raiser. Click on out more about Gifts provided ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:14 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. Great idea David. I did something similar but with just a pencil mounted cl ose to the wheel fairing. It worked but the laser can be mounted further aw ay and still give an exact point to drill. For the extension from the tube stem, a 6 inch flexible rubber extension ca n be purchased at stores supplying trucks. I found the flexible extension e asier to get started on the valve stem threads than the ridget metal extens ion. Dale Ensing RV-6A ----- Original Message ----- From: David Schaefer To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. I found an easy way to spot the exact place to drill the hole ... after d rilling the main gear l long time ago by 'blind luck' and measuring .. I re cently decided I needed to drill the nose wheel which is much tighter and h arder to spot. Just take off the pants, get a cheap laser pointer and mount it 4-5' away from the wheel on a small stand (I taped mine to a jack stand and taped it 'on'). Turn the wheel so that the LEVEL laser is pointing at the air valv e where you want the hole in the pants... then put the pants back on. The laser will still be pointing to the exact spot where the valve is. Just dr ill the hole. Don't know why I didn't think of it before. I found the metal plugs at Home Depot. Just an opinion. David W. Schaefer RV-6A N142DS "Nerdgasm" TMX-IO360 Dual-LightSpeed Plasma IIIs, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT HX E FIS On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:46 AM, N616TB wrote: Thanks Everyone for the responses about the tires. I plan to drill a h ole in my pants to accept my placing an extension through to air them up as others have suggested. I don't think I will put a door in as I just do n't feel like messing with the fiberglass again. Do Not Archive Tim Bryan The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime! he Contribution link below to find out more about lder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com s.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion -Matt Dralle, Li - The RV-List Email Fo rum - : List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List _ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - = --> h ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:32 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers Kelly, I find that troublesome .... it may be standard practice ..... but I stand by my comment. When the airplane is flying, all the engine weight isn't on the isolators, and where the washers go .... it can become looser and conceivably work it's way out. No real problem if/when it does, but I don't see why you'd slot the washer just to save a little time. Well, if you're wrenching for a living ...... Linn Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Not when supporting 300+lbs of engine, with slot to the bottom. Standard > industry practice. > > Linn Walters wrote: > >> I can't help with the math, but my comment is ..... what can slip in >> ..... can slip out. >> Linn >> do not archive > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:47 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. Excellent solution David!!! Amazing how hard it seems to come up with simple solutions. Thanks for the tip. Linn do not archive David Schaefer wrote: > I found an easy way to spot the exact place to drill the hole ... after > drilling the main gear l long time ago by 'blind luck' and measuring .. > I recently decided I needed to drill the nose wheel which is much > tighter and harder to spot. > > Just take off the pants, get a cheap laser pointer and mount it 4-5' > away from the wheel on a small stand (I taped mine to a jack stand and > taped it 'on'). Turn the wheel so that the LEVEL laser is pointing at > the air valve where you want the hole in the pants... then put the pants > back on. The laser will still be pointing to the exact spot where the > valve is. Just drill the hole. Don't know why I didn't think of it before. > > I found the metal plugs at Home Depot. > > Just an opinion. > > David W. Schaefer > RV-6A N142DS "Nerdgasm" > TMX-IO360 Dual-LightSpeed Plasma IIIs, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT HX EFIS > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:46 AM, N616TB > wrote: > > > > > Thanks Everyone for the responses about the tires. I plan to drill > a hole > in my pants to accept my placing an extension through to air them up as > others have suggested. I don't think I will put a door in as I just > don't > feel like messing with the fiberglass again. > > Do Not Archive > > Tim Bryan > The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime! > > > he Contribution link below to find out more about > lder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com > s.com/contribution" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, Li - The RV-List Email > Forum - > : > List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > _ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > = --> h > > > > > > > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:33 AM PST US From: "John Myers" Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers Kelly, Lynn, others, This may be a dumb question, but wondering if everyone is talking the same location for washers. I have seen washers mounted under isolation mounts as it seems most are talking about but I have also seen 970's added under the engine mount to firewall gussets. I have used both locations for different purposes. One to reposition the isolation mount geometry and one to reposition the whole mount and engine. I know of one occasion where the spacer inside the mount was reduced in length to tighten up the isolation mount. I would think they present different problems and or solutions. The engine tends to change it's weight on the mounts during flight and moves around a lot during cranking, shutdown and anything other than 1 G flight. On the other hand the mount to firewall fit is more rigid and tends to stay where you bolt it. However a loose bolt or lost washer at that location is possibly more troublesome as the bolt size there may not be sufficient, given the abuse that occurs when they are loose. I also have a sagging engine and was planning on going with one or two 970's between the mount and firewall, but also realize that in flight the engine may not be sagging as much. It seems that most commenting on this thread are putting a 970 washer under the isolation mount but I don't see how that will tighten up the isolation mount without treating the internal spacer. I don't do any negative G stuff (on purpose anyway) and generally never exceed 3 to 3.5 G positive but the engine still moves around a lot with gyroscopic actions as well as simple G loads. Is the concensus that short of changing out the mounts, the best approach is to washer up the isolation mounts? I know the best solution would probably be to replace the kit iso mounts with Lord mounts but what is the consensus for next best solution. John Myers with a little sag with a 360 on an 8 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:37 AM PST US From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. To answer your-question-it is very simple, you need an access-hole (s quare or round) and a plug or cover. You just have to align it with the valve stem. You'll use an air-chuck with an extension. The most common access is round and one of those SNAP-IN BUTTON COVERS-or PLUGS-(or hole plugs), in metal or plastic/nylon. - http://www.surplussales.com/MetalPlugs/MetalHolePlugs.html - http://www.widgetco.com/hole-plugs - http://www.surplussales.com/Rubber-Plastic/Plastic-1.html - You need to figure out what air tool you will use, for the geometry. - http://www.drillspot.com/products/41080/Dynaquip_AC45_Straight_Body_Air_Chu ck (this is best, with a length of brass tube as needed) - http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=JL5010N (takes up a little more room with the side fitting) - Just a stripe of white paint where the air-stem is so you can align it with the hole in the wheel pants will make it easier. Also to check the air-pressure , you can use the same air-check to a quick disconnect. Than you just plug in the AIR-GAGE into the quick disconnect. So you will need the following: - -Hole Plug -Straight Air-Chuck -Female quick disconnect -Air-Gage with male quick disconnect -Small length of brass tube with 1/4" NFPT (threaded ends) (you can bend the brass pipe slightly than cut, than-thread if you want a slight-angle) (if you use an angle or dual air-chuck you will need at least a-1.25" hol e) - My solution was to use good quality tubes, tires and nitrogen,-so I don't have- to deal with checking or filling them as often. However having access is a good idea. However to get half-back half- of my wheel pants off is-only a handful of Philips screws; it takes about a minute to remove or install. So I decided against it. - Others make a square hole with a small hinged cover to make LOTS of room so you can put in any old big dual chuck, with out having the tire rotated -the tire just the right spot. - - >My Wheel pants have been installed on my airplane for less than a year and I >am already finding the disadvantage of checking/ filling the air in the >tires.- I am sure there has been discussion of putting holes in the whee l >pants for access to the valve stem.- Does anyone have any photos on thei r >building sites of where to put these holes, how big, and what if anything is >used to plug the holes?- I would appreciate any feedback on this simple >thing.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:01 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers John Myers wrote: > > Kelly, Lynn, others, > > This may be a dumb question, It'll be the first one! but wondering if everyone is talking the > same location for washers. I have seen washers mounted under isolation > mounts as it seems most are talking about but I have also seen 970's > added under the engine mount to firewall gussets. I have used both > locations for different purposes. One to reposition the isolation mount > geometry and one to reposition the whole mount and engine. I know of > one occasion where the spacer inside the mount was reduced in length to > tighten up the isolation mount. I would think they present different > problems and or solutions. The engine tends to change it's weight on > the mounts during flight and moves around a lot during cranking, > shutdown and anything other than 1 G flight. On the other hand the mount > to firewall fit is more rigid and tends to stay where you bolt it. > However a loose bolt or lost washer at that location is possibly more > troublesome as the bolt size there may not be sufficient, given the > abuse that occurs when they are loose. The mount bolts are not as accessible (like on the inside) as the isolators, so I typically work on the isolators. Putting washers under one or two of the airframe bolts also stresses the steel mount. Just MHO. > > I also have a sagging engine and was planning on going with one or two > 970's between the mount and firewall, but also realize that in flight > the engine may not be sagging as much. It seems that most commenting on > this thread are putting a 970 washer under the isolation mount but I > don't see how that will tighten up the isolation mount without treating > the internal spacer. The washer goes forward of the isolator and the flat on the engine mounting ears if you have the ring type isolator mounts. On mounts where the isolator is cone shaped and sandwiches the mounting ear, then the washer will be behind the isolator. > > I don't do any negative G stuff (on purpose anyway) and generally never > exceed 3 to 3.5 G positive but the engine still moves around a lot with > gyroscopic actions as well as simple G loads. Is the concensus that > short of changing out the mounts, the best approach is to washer up the > isolation mounts? I know the best solution would probably be to replace > the kit iso mounts with Lord mounts but what is the consensus for next > best solution. > > John Myers with a little sag with a 360 on an 8 I'd use the washer method before spending so much money on new isolators. I've seen no difference in who makes them .... in my limited experience. I think the consensus is ..... whatever you prefer. No matter what route you take, the end result should be the same. Best of luck. Linn > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:51 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: RV6 jig From: jerry2dt@aol.com Anyone within striking distance of Portland have a -6/6a fuselage jig I co uld beg/borrow/steal or know someone who does? Cheers, Jerry Cochran ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:08 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers The washers are clamped in place by the engine mount bolts with locking nuts. No way for them to work loose. I've heard similar arguments about certain aircraft tiedown rings that aren't secured by anything other than the tightness of the threads and torque applied. Haven't seen one fall out yet. Linn Walters wrote: > > > Kelly, I find that troublesome .... it may be standard practice ..... > but I stand by my comment. When the airplane is flying, all the engine > weight isn't on the isolators, and where the washers go .... it can > become looser and conceivably work it's way out. No real problem > if/when it does, but I don't see why you'd slot the washer just to save > a little time. Well, if you're wrenching for a living ...... > Linn > > Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> Not when supporting 300+lbs of engine, with slot to the bottom. >> Standard industry practice. >> >> Linn Walters wrote: >> >>> I can't help with the math, but my comment is ..... what can slip in >>> ..... can slip out. >>> Linn >>> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:08 PM PST US From: John Bright Subject: Re: RV-List: RV6 jig Honestly you can make one with $35.00 of lumber from a home store. I used a manometer (plastic hose and windshield washer fluid) and 3 x 5 cards cut down for shims between longeron and jig. http://pages.google.com/edit/johnbright1/verticalstabilizer3?authtoken=ab9315286c497f372816212328f51adeee08971b do not archive Thanks, John Bright Virginia ________________________________ From: "jerry2dt@aol.com" Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 4:05:39 PM Subject: RV-List: RV6 jig Anyone within striking distance of Portland have a -6/6a fuselage jig I could beg/borrow/steal or know someone who does? Cheers, Jerry Cochran ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:51 PM PST US From: George Inman 204 287 8334 Subject: Re: RV-List: Airing up the tires through the wheel pants. For filling tires through wheel pants I used KM713-16-064 -from aircraft spruce. I also needed a tire valve extension I got mine from Cleavland tool http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VSE5 -- George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net Home 204 287 8334 Cell 204 799 7062 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:06 PM PST US From: "J. Mcculley" Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers Another viewpoint based on experience with the slotted-washer spacers (& slot downward). I placed 1/8 inch thick ones behind the two lower mounts and one stayed in place without problems. The other one gradually worked upward in about 10 hours time. After twice putting it back in proper location and seeing it creep up each time, I finally added a drop of CA glue between the surfaces and no problems to date after another 200 plus hours. Jim McCulley =========================================================================================== Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Not when supporting 300+lbs of engine, with slot to the bottom. Standard > industry practice. > > Linn Walters wrote: > >> I can't help with the math, but my comment is ..... what can slip in >> ..... can slip out. >> Linn >> do not archive > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:00 PM PST US From: Paul Rice Subject: RE: RV-List: engine mount washers Anyone who has done this=2C With reference to adding washers between the engine and the mount=2C did yo u have to get longer bolts as well? It looks like the cotter pin hole woul d be covered up if I add even a thin washer. Paul Rice RV8 180 hours > Date: Mon=2C 2 Nov 2009 18:29:07 -0500 > From: mcculleyja@starpower.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: engine mount washers > > > Another viewpoint based on experience with the slotted-washer spacers (& > slot downward). > > I placed 1/8 inch thick ones behind the two lower mounts and one stayed > in place without problems. The other one gradually worked upward in > about 10 hours time. After twice putting it back in proper location and > seeing it creep up each time=2C I finally added a drop of CA glue between > the surfaces and no problems to date after another 200 plus hours. > > Jim McCulley > ======================== ================= > > Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > > Not when supporting 300+lbs of engine=2C with slot to the bottom. Stand ard > > industry practice. > > > > Linn Walters wrote: > > > > >> I can't help with the math=2C but my comment is ..... what can slip in > >> ..... can slip out. > >> Linn > >> do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.