RV-List Digest Archive

Wed 01/27/10


Total Messages Posted: 10



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:14 AM - Re: aileron trim (davist@xsinet.co.za)
     2. 07:54 AM - Re: aileron trim (thomas sargent)
     3. 09:49 AM - aileron trim - a NO vote (David Leonard)
     4. 10:23 AM - Re: aileron trim - a NO vote (Bill Boyd)
     5. 12:50 PM - pitch vs. roll, was: aileron trim - a NO vote (David Leonard)
     6. 03:02 PM - Re: aileron trim (Fly RV6)
     7. 03:46 PM - Re: aileron trim (Dale Ensing)
     8. 04:40 PM - roll trim/aileron trim (Louis Willig)
     9. 05:11 PM - Re: roll trim/aileron trim (Richard Dudley)
    10. 05:47 PM - In-flight Entertainment & LCD Screens... (Matt Dralle)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:14:13 AM PST US
    Subject: aileron trim
    From: davist@xsinet.co.za
    Hi Tom I installed aileron trims on both my RV-6 as well as my RV-7. They definetely are a must, however Van's changed the orientation of the installation from the -6 to the -7 and I found the position, orientation (lever points to which wing you want lowered) and feel to the -6 was far better than what is on the plans for the -7. The good news is that it is easy to change - just invert it and move it higher up on the rib, taking care to check for freedom of movement, both for controls and trim. Chances are if you are building the -6 the drawings will still be the old ones but if you are only ordering it now, I suppose you will be getting the new drawings. Trevor RV-7 > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:57 PM > To: rv-list > Subject: RV-List: aileron trim > > > Does the Van's aileron trim work? Do most planes have it installed? > > My plane isn't flying yet - I hope to have 1st flight in a few weeks- and > I was just about to install it. If the consensus is that it isn't worth > it, I will forgo installation. > > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, pretty close to flying > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:54:30 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: aileron trim
    From: thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com>
    Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:49:40 AM PST US
    Subject: aileron trim - a NO vote
    From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
    Ok, I will chime in. I bought the trim for my RV-6 and installed it but have long since removed it. First it was very difficult to position correctly. following the placement in the directions caused an interference with the control column. I found another place a couple of inches away that would not cause the same interference... but it caused a different interference. I finally got it to work in a third location. But even there, it makes the seat pans more difficult the remove and install. More importantly, it takes up space that I step on to get in and out of the plane without stepping on the seats (the area between the seats). That is also the area that I like to keep cell phones and cameras and sandwiches while in flight. The trim handle could easily tear the upholstery if not careful, is a little awkward to reach if there is a bunch of stuff there, and can be bumped by loose gear or seats. So I removed mine and found that it is not really needed at all, I am sorry that I now have those 3 holes in my seat pans. Any trim inbalance is so lightly corrected by hand that it is almost not noticeable. After wing incidence, fuel balance is the single largest factor in affecting trim and it is constantly changing. So if you want the plane to fly straight with hands off, you will need to make constant adjustments to the aileron trim. Even then, you won't be flying straight for more than a minute BEST case. Instead, I just balance my fuel enough to get it pretty close and use the single axis autopilot for hands off flight. I use the Trio, works great and will keep you on heading all day even if the fuel load is out of balance. If you are installing an autopilot (which IMHO is a must for IFR and highly recommended even in a VFR aircraft) then forget about the aileron trim. David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:52 AM, thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one > of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight. > > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly. > > * > > * > > --


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:23:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: aileron trim - a NO vote
    From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r@gmail.com>
    I second Dave's comments. Roll trim requirements do change significantly with passenger weight and fuel burn, but the stick forces needed are light. If it were an either-or decision, the Trio autopilot would win hands-down as the better fix. I have the electric two-axis trim - and glad it's there, but the single axis autopilot will all but negate any need for roll trim. Just keep the roll moment roughly balanced with fuel burn and you're good to go, with or without the A/P. Having said that, I find the RV much more attention-demanding in pitch than in roll, such that the altitude hold is more help to me than the roll-axis A/P. I have both Trio units, but the altitude hold is the bigger labor saver. -Bill B. RV-6A On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 12:41 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote: > Ok, I will chime in. I bought the trim for my RV-6 and installed it but > have long since removed it. First it was very difficult to position > correctly. following the placement in the directions caused an interference > with the control column. I found another place a couple of inches away that > would not cause the same interference... but it caused a different > interference. I finally got it to work in a third location. But even > there, it makes the seat pans more difficult the remove and install. More > importantly, it takes up space that I step on to get in and out of the plane > without stepping on the seats (the area between the seats). That is also > the area that I like to keep cell phones and cameras and sandwiches while in > flight. The trim handle could easily tear the upholstery if not careful, is > a little awkward to reach if there is a bunch of stuff there, and can be > bumped by loose gear or seats. > > So I removed mine and found that it is not really needed at all, I am sorry > that I now have those 3 holes in my seat pans. Any trim inbalance is > so lightly corrected by hand that it is almost not noticeable. After wing > incidence, fuel balance is the single largest factor in affecting trim and > it is constantly changing. So if you want the plane to fly straight with > hands off, you will need to make constant adjustments to the aileron trim. > Even then, you won't be flying straight for more than a minute BEST case. > > Instead, I just balance my fuel enough to get it pretty close and use the > single axis autopilot for hands off flight. I use the Trio, works great and > will keep you on heading all day even if the fuel load is out of balance. > If you are installing an autopilot (which IMHO is a must for IFR and highly > recommended even in a VFR aircraft) then forget about the aileron trim. > > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:52 AM, thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one >> of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight. >> >> >> -- >> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly. >> >> * >> >> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >> ttp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > > * > > * > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:50:42 PM PST US
    Subject: pitch vs. roll, was: aileron trim - a NO vote
    From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
    > Having said that, I find the RV much more attention-demanding in pitch than > in roll, such that the altitude hold is more help to me than the roll-axis > A/P. I have both Trio units, but the altitude hold is the bigger labor > saver. > > -Bill B. RV-6A > Interesting, I think you are right "attention-demanding", but let me expand for the benefit of those anxiously awaiting the first flights of their RVs IMHO, the 'trimability' is much better in pitch than in roll, but holding altitude is much more attention-demanding. Let me explain. With regard to flight in VMC, VFR: Using the stock manual pitch trim, it is fairly easy to trim to pretty much level flight - enough to go several minutes or more without more than a couple hundred feet of altitude change. With the stock manual aileron trim, several minutes of hands off flight will have you well away from desired heading. However, while hand flying it is easy to unconsciously maintain roll attitude and rough heading - you don't think about it at all. Maintaining altitude, depending on how close you want to stick to your target, requires more or less constant vigilance. It is very easy for an RV to drift up or down a couple hundred feet in a short period of time with very few sensory cues other than reference to the altimeter. i.e. while pitch variations are easier to trim out, but they are more difficult to unconsciously detect. I think this is what Bill means by attention-demanding. The situation changes with hand flying in IMC: Now you remove the obvious visual cues of the horizon and IMHO roll attitude and heading become significantly more attention demanding than than pitch attitude and altitude. Perhaps that is because I removed my aileron trim long before I ever flew my RV in IMC so I am comparing a system with trim, to one without trim. Anyway, I hope the discussion helped you to make the aileron trim decision.. And Hmmm, maybe it is time for me to think about bucking up for that altitude hold... :-) David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:02:57 PM PST US
    From: "Fly RV6" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
    Subject: aileron trim
    Well not everyone. I was going to post but it looked like I was to be the odd man out. If I had it to do again, I wouldn=99t bother since I never use it and see no point it is just complexity in that tight area I don=99t need. Maybe I am a sloppy flier but my plane seem to be level regardless. Of course I manage my fuel beginning from the left tank and then switch every 30 minutes. I can=99t tell any difference with two in the plane or alone. Sounds like a best bet to install for you though since so many others agree it is worth it. I just thought I would throw that out cause I am sure it will start some conversation on here. I hold the control stick between two fingers near my legs once at a safe altitude and find very fine control with light input that way. Maybe I just correct for it; don=99t know. Tim RV-6 N616TB From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:53 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: aileron trim Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:46:31 PM PST US
    From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: aileron trim
    I agree with you Tim. I have it but rarely use it because of usually using the AP when flying in a straight line to a destination. Dale RV6A N118DE ----- Original Message ----- From: Fly RV6 To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:57 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: aileron trim Well not everyone. I was going to post but it looked like I was to be th e odd man out. If I had it to do again, I wouldn=99t bother since I never use it and see no point it is just complexity in that tight area I do n=99t need. Maybe I am a sloppy flier but my plane seem to be level regardless. Of course I manage my fuel beginning from the left tank and th en switch every 30 minutes. I can=99t tell any difference with two i n the plane or alone. Sounds like a best bet to install for you though sin ce so many others agree it is worth it. I just thought I would throw that out cause I am sure it will start some conversation on here. I hold the control stick between two fingers near my legs once at a safe altitude and find very fine control with light input t hat way. Maybe I just correct for it; don=99t know. Tim RV-6 N616TB From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@mat ronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:53 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: aileron trim Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp ://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 8


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    Time: 04:40:35 PM PST US
    From: Louis Willig <larywil@comcast.net>
    Subject: roll trim/aileron trim
    Hi gang, It's good to see some real RV-list questions and answers. I would like to add a very relevant piece of info to this subject. Years ago, there were numerous discussions regarding roll trim control on the RV series. I learned a lot ( and forgot some of it) On my second RV-4, I found that I was constantly pushing over to the left to compensate for a heavy wing. This, of course changed in magnitude as the right tank was depleted. But, no matter how much aileron pinching I did, my honey always wanted to lean to the right more often than to the left. Now, this was not always the case. My first flight across the continent never showed a trim problem. After this 2400 mile trip (16 flying hours over two days) someone pointed out that my left main gear leg fairing was split open at the back. Signs of blood and guts, as well as a small dent in the leading edge of the fairing pointed to a small bird strike. A relatively easy repair was completed and the fairing was re-installed. That's when the problem started. But I didn't realize I had a problem for several months. When I did, I certainly didn't think of my fairing repair as the culprit!! Where is this all going? Well, I never really aligned the fairing perfectly, and after my first Anual Inspection, my mechanic asked me how to align the fairings. Well I did the old string trick, and noticed that the tabs on the left fairing didn't match the crud marks left on the leg prior to removal. Voila! The plane was now a much more balanced machine. So I decided to do a few experiments. I twisted the fairing a little bit, took it back into the air. Twisted it past center in the other direction, took it into the air. The results were that a small twist or misalignment was like having an off-center rudder under the engine. Boy, does this affect roll/yaw balance. I removed Van's roll trim for good ( It did work well, but I was in new territory with my aileron misaligned). So, my point is: for those of you just into your first flights, check your fairings' alignment before bending rudder trim tabs and squeezing ailerons. P.S. I added a Digitrak a few months later to give me a break (when the shit hits the fan), but not to control a bad roll condition. My feeling is that all RV's should have an A/P if you are going on serious trips - even if you never turn it on. When turned off, I hardly notice my "well balanced" RV-4 when the tank are uneven. Louis I Willig 1640 Oakwood Dr. Penn Valley, PA 19072 610 668-4964 RV-4, N180PF 190HP IO-360, C/S prop


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:11:48 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: roll trim/aileron trim
    First flighter, Here is another suggestion I learned from somewhere or someone before my first flight of my RV-6A. Make your first flight and other early flights WITHOUT your gear leg fairings or wheel fairings. Do your rudder trim adjustments and heavy wing adjustments BEFORE mounting your leg or wheel farinigs or installing your aileron trim. Then, you will know what effects result from leg or wheel fairings. You will also learn how much airspeed improvement you get from those fairings. My results were like 20 mph gain (per 3 heading gps measurements) after mounting those fairings. Happy first flights!! Richard Dudley RV-6A ---- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Willig" <larywil@comcast.net> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:21 PM Subject: RV-List: roll trim/aileron trim > > Hi gang, > > It's good to see some real RV-list questions and answers. I would like to > add a very relevant piece of info to this subject. > > Years ago, there were numerous discussions regarding roll trim control on > the RV series. I learned a lot ( and forgot some of it) > > On my second RV-4, I found that I was constantly pushing over to the left > to compensate for a heavy wing. This, of course changed in magnitude as > the right tank was depleted. But, no matter how much aileron pinching I > did, my honey always wanted to lean to the right more often than to the > left. Now, this was not always the case. My first flight across the > continent never showed a trim problem. After this 2400 mile trip (16 > flying hours over two days) someone pointed out that my left main gear leg > fairing was split open at the back. Signs of blood and guts, as well as a > small dent in the leading edge of the fairing pointed to a small bird > strike. A relatively easy repair was completed and the fairing was > re-installed. That's when the problem started. But I didn't realize I had > a problem for several months. When I did, I certainly didn't think of my > fairing repair as the culprit!! Where is this all going? Well, I never > really aligned the fairing perfectly, and after my first Anual Inspection, > my mechanic asked me how to align the fairings. Well I did the old string > trick, and noticed that the tabs on the left fairing didn't match the crud > marks left on the leg prior to removal. Voila! The plane was now a much > more balanced machine. So I decided to do a few experiments. I twisted the > fairing a little bit, took it back into the air. Twisted it past center in > the other direction, took it into the air. The results were that a small > twist or misalignment was like having an off-center rudder under the > engine. Boy, does this affect roll/yaw balance. I removed Van's roll trim > for good ( It did work well, but I was in new territory with my aileron > misaligned). So, my point is: for those of you just into your first > flights, check your fairings' alignment before bending rudder trim tabs > and squeezing ailerons. > > P.S. > I added a Digitrak a few months later to give me a break (when the shit > hits the fan), but not to control a bad roll condition. My feeling is that > all RV's should have an A/P if you are going on serious trips - even if > you never turn it on. When turned off, I hardly notice my "well balanced" > RV-4 when the tank are uneven. > > > Louis I Willig > 1640 Oakwood Dr. > Penn Valley, PA 19072 > 610 668-4964 > RV-4, N180PF > 190HP IO-360, C/S prop > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:47:05 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: In-flight Entertainment & LCD Screens...
    Dear listers, I've received quite a few emails asking about my entertainment installation in the RV-8 project and specifically the components I used and how I installed them. The links and text below documents the selection and process pretty well and so I thought I'd pass it along to the Lists. The front headrest with the monitor in it is the standard headrest I got from Classic Aero for use with the Aviator seats. I made some serious modifications to it however, and then sent it back to them for leather upholstering. It came out really nice and isn't too heavy. I documented the whole process in my blog in extreme detail here: Initial installation using the white plastic shells (10 logs): http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73410&row=91 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73411&row=90 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73412&row=89 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73413&row=88 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73414&row=87 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73415&row=86 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73415&row=86 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73416&row=85 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73417&row=84 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73418&row=83 Installation redo with new and significantly improved black shells (5 logs): http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77846&row=48 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77847&row=47 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77848&row=46 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77849&row=45 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77850&row=44 Final installation with Leather upholstery completed (4 logs): http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=4395&log=86106&row=5 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=4395&log=86107&row=4 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2973&log'427&row=2 http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2973&log'427&row=2 On the main instrument panel, I'm using a Kenwood DNX8120 entertainment system with a 7" LCD touch screen. The DNX8120 has been replaced by the DNX9140 which is very similar: http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=67178&row=159 http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/eXcelon/Mobile_Video_n_Navigation/DNX9140 The rear screen is slaved to the DNX8120 though an AV controller that comes with the screen. The rear LCD screen is also 7", but not a touch screen. Its a Kenwood model number LZ-702IR: http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Mobile_Video_n_Navigation/Mobile_Video/LZ-702IR http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7134_Kenwood+LZ-702IR.html The rear view cam is also a Kenwood unit and integrates with the DNX very nicely: http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/eXcelon/Mobile_Video_n_Navigation/CCD-2000 Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com Finishing up...




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