Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:14 AM - Re: aileron trim (davist@xsinet.co.za)
2. 07:54 AM - Re: aileron trim (thomas sargent)
3. 09:49 AM - aileron trim - a NO vote (David Leonard)
4. 10:23 AM - Re: aileron trim - a NO vote (Bill Boyd)
5. 12:50 PM - pitch vs. roll, was: aileron trim - a NO vote (David Leonard)
6. 03:02 PM - Re: aileron trim (Fly RV6)
7. 03:46 PM - Re: aileron trim (Dale Ensing)
8. 04:40 PM - roll trim/aileron trim (Louis Willig)
9. 05:11 PM - Re: roll trim/aileron trim (Richard Dudley)
10. 05:47 PM - In-flight Entertainment & LCD Screens... (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Hi Tom
I installed aileron trims on both my RV-6 as well as my RV-7. They
definetely are a must, however Van's changed the orientation of the
installation from the -6 to the -7 and I found the position, orientation
(lever points to which wing you want lowered) and feel to the -6 was far
better than what is on the plans for the -7. The good news is that it is
easy to change - just invert it and move it higher up on the rib, taking
care to check for freedom of movement, both for controls and trim.
Chances are if you are building the -6 the drawings will still be the old
ones but if you are only ordering it now, I suppose you will be getting
the new drawings.
Trevor RV-7
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:57 PM
> To: rv-list
> Subject: RV-List: aileron trim
>
>
> Does the Van's aileron trim work? Do most planes have it installed?
>
> My plane isn't flying yet - I hope to have 1st flight in a few weeks- and
> I was just about to install it. If the consensus is that it isn't worth
> it, I will forgo installation.
>
>
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, pretty close to flying
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: aileron trim |
Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one of
the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
Message 3
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Subject: | aileron trim - a NO vote |
Ok, I will chime in. I bought the trim for my RV-6 and installed it but
have long since removed it. First it was very difficult to position
correctly. following the placement in the directions caused an interference
with the control column. I found another place a couple of inches away that
would not cause the same interference... but it caused a different
interference. I finally got it to work in a third location. But even
there, it makes the seat pans more difficult the remove and install. More
importantly, it takes up space that I step on to get in and out of the plane
without stepping on the seats (the area between the seats). That is also
the area that I like to keep cell phones and cameras and sandwiches while in
flight. The trim handle could easily tear the upholstery if not careful, is
a little awkward to reach if there is a bunch of stuff there, and can be
bumped by loose gear or seats.
So I removed mine and found that it is not really needed at all, I am sorry
that I now have those 3 holes in my seat pans. Any trim inbalance is
so lightly corrected by hand that it is almost not noticeable. After wing
incidence, fuel balance is the single largest factor in affecting trim and
it is constantly changing. So if you want the plane to fly straight with
hands off, you will need to make constant adjustments to the aileron trim.
Even then, you won't be flying straight for more than a minute BEST case.
Instead, I just balance my fuel enough to get it pretty close and use the
single axis autopilot for hands off flight. I use the Trio, works great and
will keep you on heading all day even if the fuel load is out of balance.
If you are installing an autopilot (which IMHO is a must for IFR and highly
recommended even in a VFR aircraft) then forget about the aileron trim.
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:52 AM, thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one
> of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight.
>
>
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: aileron trim - a NO vote |
I second Dave's comments. Roll trim requirements do change significantly
with passenger weight and fuel burn, but the stick forces needed are light.
If it were an either-or decision, the Trio autopilot would win hands-down
as the better fix. I have the electric two-axis trim - and glad it's there,
but the single axis autopilot will all but negate any need for roll trim.
Just keep the roll moment roughly balanced with fuel burn and you're good
to go, with or without the A/P.
Having said that, I find the RV much more attention-demanding in pitch than
in roll, such that the altitude hold is more help to me than the roll-axis
A/P. I have both Trio units, but the altitude hold is the bigger labor
saver.
-Bill B. RV-6A
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 12:41 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I will chime in. I bought the trim for my RV-6 and installed it but
> have long since removed it. First it was very difficult to position
> correctly. following the placement in the directions caused an interference
> with the control column. I found another place a couple of inches away that
> would not cause the same interference... but it caused a different
> interference. I finally got it to work in a third location. But even
> there, it makes the seat pans more difficult the remove and install. More
> importantly, it takes up space that I step on to get in and out of the plane
> without stepping on the seats (the area between the seats). That is also
> the area that I like to keep cell phones and cameras and sandwiches while in
> flight. The trim handle could easily tear the upholstery if not careful, is
> a little awkward to reach if there is a bunch of stuff there, and can be
> bumped by loose gear or seats.
>
> So I removed mine and found that it is not really needed at all, I am sorry
> that I now have those 3 holes in my seat pans. Any trim inbalance is
> so lightly corrected by hand that it is almost not noticeable. After wing
> incidence, fuel balance is the single largest factor in affecting trim and
> it is constantly changing. So if you want the plane to fly straight with
> hands off, you will need to make constant adjustments to the aileron trim.
> Even then, you won't be flying straight for more than a minute BEST case.
>
> Instead, I just balance my fuel enough to get it pretty close and use the
> single axis autopilot for hands off flight. I use the Trio, works great and
> will keep you on heading all day even if the fuel load is out of balance.
> If you are installing an autopilot (which IMHO is a must for IFR and highly
> recommended even in a VFR aircraft) then forget about the aileron trim.
>
> David Leonard
>
> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
> http://RotaryRoster.net
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:52 AM, thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one
>> of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
>>
>> *
>>
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | pitch vs. roll, was: aileron trim - a NO vote |
> Having said that, I find the RV much more attention-demanding in pitch than
> in roll, such that the altitude hold is more help to me than the roll-axis
> A/P. I have both Trio units, but the altitude hold is the bigger labor
> saver.
>
> -Bill B. RV-6A
>
Interesting, I think you are right "attention-demanding", but let me expand
for the benefit of those anxiously awaiting the first flights of their RVs
IMHO, the 'trimability' is much better in pitch than in roll, but holding
altitude is much more attention-demanding. Let me explain.
With regard to flight in VMC, VFR:
Using the stock manual pitch trim, it is fairly easy to trim to pretty much
level flight - enough to go several minutes or more without more than a
couple hundred feet of altitude change. With the stock manual aileron trim,
several minutes of hands off flight will have you well away from desired
heading.
However, while hand flying it is easy to unconsciously maintain roll
attitude and rough heading - you don't think about it at all. Maintaining
altitude, depending on how close you want to stick to your target, requires
more or less constant vigilance. It is very easy for an RV to drift up or
down a couple hundred feet in a short period of time with very few sensory
cues other than reference to the altimeter. i.e. while pitch variations are
easier to trim out, but they are more difficult to unconsciously detect. I
think this is what Bill means by attention-demanding.
The situation changes with hand flying in IMC:
Now you remove the obvious visual cues of the horizon and IMHO roll attitude
and heading become significantly more attention demanding than than pitch
attitude and altitude. Perhaps that is because I removed my aileron trim
long before I ever flew my RV in IMC so I am comparing a system with trim,
to one without trim.
Anyway, I hope the discussion helped you to make the aileron trim decision..
And Hmmm, maybe it is time for me to think about bucking up for that
altitude hold... :-)
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
Message 6
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Well not everyone. I was going to post but it looked like I was to be
the odd man out. If I had it to do again, I wouldn=99t bother
since I never use it and see no point it is just complexity in that
tight area I don=99t need. Maybe I am a sloppy flier but my plane
seem to be level regardless. Of course I manage my fuel beginning from
the left tank and then switch every 30 minutes. I can=99t tell
any difference with two in the plane or alone. Sounds like a best bet
to install for you though since so many others agree it is worth it.
I just thought I would throw that out cause I am sure it will start some
conversation on here. I hold the control stick between two fingers near
my legs once at a safe altitude and find very fine control with light
input that way. Maybe I just correct for it; don=99t know.
Tim
RV-6
N616TB
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: aileron trim
Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is
one of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it
tonight.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: aileron trim |
I agree with you Tim. I have it but rarely use it because of usually using
the AP when flying in a straight line to a destination.
Dale
RV6A
N118DE
----- Original Message -----
From: Fly RV6
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: aileron trim
Well not everyone. I was going to post but it looked like I was to be th
e odd man out. If I had it to do again, I wouldn=99t bother since I
never use it and see no point it is just complexity in that tight area I do
n=99t need. Maybe I am a sloppy flier but my plane seem to be level
regardless. Of course I manage my fuel beginning from the left tank and th
en switch every 30 minutes. I can=99t tell any difference with two i
n the plane or alone. Sounds like a best bet to install for you though sin
ce so many others agree it is worth it.
I just thought I would throw that out cause I am sure it will start some
conversation on here. I hold the control stick between two fingers near my
legs once at a safe altitude and find very fine control with light input t
hat way. Maybe I just correct for it; don=99t know.
Tim
RV-6
N616TB
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:53 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: aileron trim
Thanks for all the responses on this. Looks like the aileron trim is one
of the things every one agrees on. I'll start installing it tonight.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp
://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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Subject: | roll trim/aileron trim |
Hi gang,
It's good to see some real RV-list questions and answers. I would
like to add a very relevant piece of info to this subject.
Years ago, there were numerous discussions regarding roll trim
control on the RV series. I learned a lot ( and forgot some of it)
On my second RV-4, I found that I was constantly pushing over to the
left to compensate for a heavy wing. This, of course changed in
magnitude as the right tank was depleted. But, no matter how much
aileron pinching I did, my honey always wanted to lean to the right
more often than to the left. Now, this was not always the case. My
first flight across the continent never showed a trim problem. After
this 2400 mile trip (16 flying hours over two days) someone pointed
out that my left main gear leg fairing was split open at the back.
Signs of blood and guts, as well as a small dent in the leading edge
of the fairing pointed to a small bird strike. A relatively easy
repair was completed and the fairing was re-installed. That's when
the problem started. But I didn't realize I had a problem for several
months. When I did, I certainly didn't think of my fairing repair as
the culprit!! Where is this all going? Well, I never really aligned
the fairing perfectly, and after my first Anual Inspection, my
mechanic asked me how to align the fairings. Well I did the old
string trick, and noticed that the tabs on the left fairing didn't
match the crud marks left on the leg prior to removal. Voila! The
plane was now a much more balanced machine. So I decided to do a few
experiments. I twisted the fairing a little bit, took it back into
the air. Twisted it past center in the other direction, took it into
the air. The results were that a small twist or misalignment was like
having an off-center rudder under the engine. Boy, does this affect
roll/yaw balance. I removed Van's roll trim for good ( It did work
well, but I was in new territory with my aileron misaligned). So, my
point is: for those of you just into your first flights, check your
fairings' alignment before bending rudder trim tabs and squeezing ailerons.
P.S.
I added a Digitrak a few months later to give me a break (when the
shit hits the fan), but not to control a bad roll condition. My
feeling is that all RV's should have an A/P if you are going on
serious trips - even if you never turn it on. When turned off, I
hardly notice my "well balanced" RV-4 when the tank are uneven.
Louis I Willig
1640 Oakwood Dr.
Penn Valley, PA 19072
610 668-4964
RV-4, N180PF
190HP IO-360, C/S prop
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: roll trim/aileron trim |
First flighter,
Here is another suggestion I learned from somewhere or someone before my
first flight of my RV-6A. Make your first flight and other early flights
WITHOUT your gear leg fairings or wheel fairings. Do your rudder trim
adjustments and heavy wing adjustments BEFORE mounting your leg or wheel
farinigs or installing your aileron trim. Then, you will know what effects
result from leg or wheel fairings. You will also learn how much airspeed
improvement you get from those fairings. My results were like 20 mph gain
(per 3 heading gps measurements) after mounting those fairings.
Happy first flights!!
Richard Dudley
RV-6A
---- Original Message -----
From: "Louis Willig" <larywil@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: roll trim/aileron trim
>
> Hi gang,
>
> It's good to see some real RV-list questions and answers. I would like to
> add a very relevant piece of info to this subject.
>
> Years ago, there were numerous discussions regarding roll trim control on
> the RV series. I learned a lot ( and forgot some of it)
>
> On my second RV-4, I found that I was constantly pushing over to the left
> to compensate for a heavy wing. This, of course changed in magnitude as
> the right tank was depleted. But, no matter how much aileron pinching I
> did, my honey always wanted to lean to the right more often than to the
> left. Now, this was not always the case. My first flight across the
> continent never showed a trim problem. After this 2400 mile trip (16
> flying hours over two days) someone pointed out that my left main gear leg
> fairing was split open at the back. Signs of blood and guts, as well as a
> small dent in the leading edge of the fairing pointed to a small bird
> strike. A relatively easy repair was completed and the fairing was
> re-installed. That's when the problem started. But I didn't realize I had
> a problem for several months. When I did, I certainly didn't think of my
> fairing repair as the culprit!! Where is this all going? Well, I never
> really aligned the fairing perfectly, and after my first Anual Inspection,
> my mechanic asked me how to align the fairings. Well I did the old string
> trick, and noticed that the tabs on the left fairing didn't match the crud
> marks left on the leg prior to removal. Voila! The plane was now a much
> more balanced machine. So I decided to do a few experiments. I twisted the
> fairing a little bit, took it back into the air. Twisted it past center in
> the other direction, took it into the air. The results were that a small
> twist or misalignment was like having an off-center rudder under the
> engine. Boy, does this affect roll/yaw balance. I removed Van's roll trim
> for good ( It did work well, but I was in new territory with my aileron
> misaligned). So, my point is: for those of you just into your first
> flights, check your fairings' alignment before bending rudder trim tabs
> and squeezing ailerons.
>
> P.S.
> I added a Digitrak a few months later to give me a break (when the shit
> hits the fan), but not to control a bad roll condition. My feeling is that
> all RV's should have an A/P if you are going on serious trips - even if
> you never turn it on. When turned off, I hardly notice my "well balanced"
> RV-4 when the tank are uneven.
>
>
> Louis I Willig
> 1640 Oakwood Dr.
> Penn Valley, PA 19072
> 610 668-4964
> RV-4, N180PF
> 190HP IO-360, C/S prop
>
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | In-flight Entertainment & LCD Screens... |
Dear listers,
I've received quite a few emails asking about my entertainment installation in
the RV-8 project and specifically the components I used and how I installed them.
The links and text below documents the selection and process pretty well
and so I thought I'd pass it along to the Lists.
The front headrest with the monitor in it is the standard headrest I got from Classic
Aero for use with the Aviator seats. I made some serious modifications
to it however, and then sent it back to them for leather upholstering. It came
out really nice and isn't too heavy. I documented the whole process in my
blog in extreme detail here:
Initial installation using the white plastic shells (10 logs):
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73410&row=91
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73411&row=90
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73412&row=89
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73413&row=88
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73414&row=87
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73415&row=86
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73415&row=86
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73416&row=85
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73417&row=84
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=73418&row=83
Installation redo with new and significantly improved black shells (5 logs):
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77846&row=48
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77847&row=47
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77848&row=46
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77849&row=45
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=77850&row=44
Final installation with Leather upholstery completed (4 logs):
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=4395&log=86106&row=5
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=4395&log=86107&row=4
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2973&log'427&row=2
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2973&log'427&row=2
On the main instrument panel, I'm using a Kenwood DNX8120 entertainment system
with a 7" LCD touch screen. The DNX8120 has been replaced by the DNX9140 which
is very similar:
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2971&log=67178&row=159
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/eXcelon/Mobile_Video_n_Navigation/DNX9140
The rear screen is slaved to the DNX8120 though an AV controller that comes with
the screen. The rear LCD screen is also 7", but not a touch screen. Its a
Kenwood model number LZ-702IR:
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Mobile_Video_n_Navigation/Mobile_Video/LZ-702IR
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7134_Kenwood+LZ-702IR.html
The rear view cam is also a Kenwood unit and integrates with the DNX very nicely:
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/eXcelon/Mobile_Video_n_Navigation/CCD-2000
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com
Finishing up...
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