Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:52 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Charles Kuss)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (cheathco)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Ollie Washburn)
4. 06:44 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Dale Ensing)
5. 07:23 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Linn Walters)
6. 08:39 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (smittysrv)
7. 08:50 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Doug Weiler)
8. 09:50 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Greg)
9. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Bret Smith)
10. 10:10 AM - Re: Carpeting Question (Robin Marks)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
Matt,
Your brake rotors are mostly likely now warped and unusable, due to the severe
overheat. One more item to check and most likely replace.
Charlie Kuss
--- On Wed, 4/28/10, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com> wrote:
> From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)...
> To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 12:29 AM
>
> On the third taxi test, I headed out to the main runway at
> Livermore, 25R and ask the tower for a high-speed taxi test
> with no take off. It was approved as requested and
> went great. There was about a 15-20 knot head wind at
> about 270 which made it even more fun. The RV-8
> handled great and it was definitely ready to take off.
> I only got to about 1/3 power and it would have taken off
> with about 1/2 throttle probably. Oh my... What
> will FULL throttle be like!? Now that's exciting! Be
> sure to watch the Part 2 of this video because as the music
> gets more intense, so does the testing!
>
> Third Taxi Test - Part 1
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=pnz31m6aVEQ
>
>
> After the taxi back on the regular taxi way, the tower
> offered to let me run back the other direction on the
> runway! I wasn't sure that's really what he was
> suggesting and I had to verify that's what he really meant.
> It was pretty cool and saved a lot of time. With the 15-20
> knot tailwind, though, I probably would have been better off
> just using the taxi way. Now you'll notice the music is
> getting a bit more intense. Be sure to watch Part 3
> because that's where this taxi test REALLY get's
> interesting...
>
> Third Taxi Test - Part 2
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=5zheOkSHfX4
>
>
> As you'll see in that part of the third taxi test, I lost
> the brakes. As I'm taxing off the runway I noticed
> that there was smoke coming out of both the left and right
> sides. At the time, I really wasn't sure what caused
> the brakes to get so hot. But, after watching the
> video a couple of time and recalling back to what I was
> doing, I'm positive that I was dragging the brakes on those
> down-wind trips. I even remember thinking at one
> point, "oh, I'm riding the brakes". Doesn't seem like they
> should get so hot as to start smoking, but perhaps it was a
> combination of being new, over worked, and a bit of brake
> fluid leaking out and hitting the discs. Anyway, my comment
> at the end of the video is kind of funny. It wasn't at the
> time, mind you... :-)
>
> Third Taxi Test - Part 3
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=57W-O8905cg
>
>
> After I hosed the wheel pants and brakes down and got
> things cooled off and no longer smoking, I had to push the
> plane back to the hangar from the wash rack, which isn't too
> far, but still kind of a long ways at the end of a
> day. As I was pushing it back I noticed that there was
> brake fluid leaking out of the right brake. I pushed
> the plane about 1/2 the way into the hangar and took the
> wheel pants off. Once I got the leaks stopped, I
> pushed the plane the rest of the way in. It was kind
> of a demoralizing sight to see the brake calipers smoked
> like that, but it could have been a lot worse.
>
> A word to the wise - STAY OFF THE BRAKES!!! Its
> really easy to drag them and this video is a document to
> what can happen.
>
> Third Taxi Test - Epilogue
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=JlQjRWnbO2c
>
>
> The brakes were pretty toasted as were the sidewalls of the
> tires. There were little bits of rubber coming off the
> sidewall around the wheel. The brake pads definitely
> looked worn down some compared to the set I have on the
> partially completed RV-4. So in the interest of not
> holding up the test flight progress, I opted to use the
> wheels, brakes, and tires from the RV-4 project to replace
> the smoked components on the RV-8. I'll order a new
> set for the RV-4 later.
>
> I spent the day jacking up the plane and swapping
> pieces. I also took the opportunity to remove the
> right master cylinder and fix the pesky high-pressure side
> leak. Here's a video of the wheels, brakes, and tires
> all replaced and ready for testing.
>
> Third Taxi Test - Post Epilogue
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=dL92Hwi0xnE
>
>
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV
> YouTube Channel
> Status: Test Flying
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially riding
rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition flights and
taught me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on takeoff. If
needed you can still hold some ri brake, and you are aware of it. My
technique is to power up as I'm turning onto runway and tork pulls me
straight and by that time the rudder is ready to work and I dont need rt
brake. Charlie H
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
Matt,
Many have said and I think Van himself says, do not do high speed taxi
tests. What does it prove and you are certainly not doing any favors to an
engine that is not broken in.
Ollie
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, cheathco <cheathco@cox.net> wrote:
> It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially riding
> rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition flights and taught
> me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on takeoff. If needed you can
> still hold some ri brake, and you are aware of it. My technique is to power
> up as I'm turning onto runway and tork pulls me straight and by that time
> the rudder is ready to work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
>From Central Florida,
Ollie
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
Matt,
The brake fluid "leak" at the reservoir was probably fluid that was forced
up thru the vent when the fluid got hot and expanded. There should be no
need for sealant on the treads of the vent plug as fluid will escape thru
the ventcap anyway if it gets that high in the reservoir.
My experience with my 6A is that I will get overflow, that runs down the
firewall, if I keep the fluid level at the top of the reservoir. Just the
normal warming of the fluid during taxi will cause enough expansion of the
fluid even without overheating of the brakes. I live in an airpark and have
a rather long taxi to the runway. I now keep the brake fluid level about 1/2
inch below the top.
Dale Ensing
RV-6A N118DE
Aero Plantation NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
<rv7-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:29 AM
Subject: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)...
>
> On the third taxi test, I headed out to the main runway at Livermore, 25R
> and ask the tower for a high-speed taxi test with no take off. It was
> approved as requested and went great. There was about a 15-20 knot head
> wind at about 270 which made it even more fun. The RV-8 handled great and
> it was definitely ready to take off. I only got to about 1/3 power and it
> would have taken off with about 1/2 throttle probably. Oh my... What
> will FULL throttle be like!? Now that's exciting! Be sure to watch the
> Part 2 of this video because as the music gets more intense, so does the
> testing!
>
> Third Taxi Test - Part 1
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=pnz31m6aVEQ
>
>
> After the taxi back on the regular taxi way, the tower offered to let me
> run back the other direction on the runway! I wasn't sure that's really
> what he was suggesting and I had to verify that's what he really meant. It
> was pretty cool and saved a lot of time. With the 15-20 knot tailwind,
> though, I probably would have been better off just using the taxi way. Now
> you'll notice the music is getting a bit more intense. Be sure to watch
> Part 3 because that's where this taxi test REALLY get's interesting...
>
> Third Taxi Test - Part 2
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=5zheOkSHfX4
>
>
> As you'll see in that part of the third taxi test, I lost the brakes. As
> I'm taxing off the runway I noticed that there was smoke coming out of
> both the left and right sides. At the time, I really wasn't sure what
> caused the brakes to get so hot. But, after watching the video a couple
> of time and recalling back to what I was doing, I'm positive that I was
> dragging the brakes on those down-wind trips. I even remember thinking at
> one point, "oh, I'm riding the brakes". Doesn't seem like they should get
> so hot as to start smoking, but perhaps it was a combination of being new,
> over worked, and a bit of brake fluid leaking out and hitting the discs.
> Anyway, my comment at the end of the video is kind of funny. It wasn't at
> the time, mind you... :-)
>
> Third Taxi Test - Part 3
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=57W-O8905cg
>
>
> After I hosed the wheel pants and brakes down and got things cooled off
> and no longer smoking, I had to push the plane back to the hangar from the
> wash rack, which isn't too far, but still kind of a long ways at the end
> of a day. As I was pushing it back I noticed that there was brake fluid
> leaking out of the right brake. I pushed the plane about 1/2 the way into
> the hangar and took the wheel pants off. Once I got the leaks stopped, I
> pushed the plane the rest of the way in. It was kind of a demoralizing
> sight to see the brake calipers smoked like that, but it could have been a
> lot worse.
>
> A word to the wise - STAY OFF THE BRAKES!!! Its really easy to drag them
> and this video is a document to what can happen.
>
> Third Taxi Test - Epilogue
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=JlQjRWnbO2c
>
>
> The brakes were pretty toasted as were the sidewalls of the tires. There
> were little bits of rubber coming off the sidewall around the wheel. The
> brake pads definitely looked worn down some compared to the set I have on
> the partially completed RV-4. So in the interest of not holding up the
> test flight progress, I opted to use the wheels, brakes, and tires from
> the RV-4 project to replace the smoked components on the RV-8. I'll order
> a new set for the RV-4 later.
>
> I spent the day jacking up the plane and swapping pieces. I also took the
> opportunity to remove the right master cylinder and fix the pesky
> high-pressure side leak. Here's a video of the wheels, brakes, and tires
> all replaced and ready for testing.
>
> Third Taxi Test - Post Epilogue
>
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=dL92Hwi0xnE
>
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
> Status: Test Flying
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
Some comments and observations .... not Matt-bashing.
Ollie gets the gold star. High speed taxi tests don't accomplish
anything, and often leads to off-surface excursions and unplanned flight.
I'm not convinced that Matt was dragging the brakes during the testing
.... just stopping and turning around generates an enormous amount of
heat. Repetition, without letting the brakes cool down, is more than
enough energy to cause a problem ... which is aggravated by the fact the
wheel/brakes are enclosed in the wheel pants.
I give Matt high marks though, for the braided lines .... I've
personally known of two fires from melted plastic lines .... a
Defiant left us in a blaze of glory and the other managed to burn the
wheel pant and start a grass fire.
I can surmise that the 'loose' fittings were fairly tight and the heat
along with the tension from the hose loop caused them to rotate and then
leak.
As for the trip back to the hangar .... after he noticed the 'fire',
Matt should have informed the tower to send the fire truck .... if there
is one. There's no penalty for declaring an emergency and a worse
outcome is a real possibility. Far easier to put out a small fire.
While I'm on the soap-box ...... the next step for most 'preflight
testing' is the crow-hop down the runway ..... lifting off and settling
back down. When you're ready to fly .... put the pedal to the metal and
go fly, and learn just how controllable your airplane is (and how to
control it!) when you have some good altitude.
My last comment ..... when you're in the first flight phase ..... talk
to a flight adviser. You can't get a better bang for the buck in aviation!
Now, for some perspective .... my good friend (now deceased)was in the
process of building and RV-8 .... and it's getting it's first flight
this Sat. I'll be getting checked out in it to help fly off the Phase 1
time. I'm looking forward to that. But I'll have a lot of dual before
I'm off on my own.
Linn
Ollie Washburn wrote:
> Matt,
>
> Many have said and I think Van himself says, do not do high speed taxi
> tests. What does it prove and you are certainly not doing any favors to
> an engine that is not broken in.
>
> Ollie
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, cheathco <cheathco@cox.net
> <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>> wrote:
>
> It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially
> riding rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition
> flights and taught me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on
> takeoff. If needed you can still hold some ri brake, and you are
> aware of it. My technique is to power up as I'm turning onto runway
> and tork pulls me straight and by that time the rudder is ready to
> work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H
>
> *
>
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
>
>
> --
> From Central Florida,
> Ollie
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
I haven't finished my RV, so I don't have any advice from personal experience,
but I do have a question. If the brakes stayed engaged, even after taking your
foot off the pedals, would springs (like the ones I put in) help?
http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=589
Smitty
--------
Smittys RV-9A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296035#296035
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
Matt and others:
I have to chime in here and pass along a thought. Matt: I would highly
suggest you terminate the taxi testing, get the checkout that you
intended, and then go fly your airplane. I know you had Bart do an
extensive break-in on your engine, but you are absolutely doing it no
good taxing around on the ground with inadequate cooling. This is a
large engine and it is not getting cooled properly doing what you are
doing. High-speed taxis and "crow-hops: are dangerous and non-productive.
I have made 8 first RV flights on a variety of models and speak from
experience.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Doug Weiler
pres, MN Wing
RV-4/RV-7
Linn Walters wrote:
>
> Some comments and observations .... not Matt-bashing.
>
> Ollie gets the gold star. High speed taxi tests don't accomplish
> anything, and often leads to off-surface excursions and unplanned flight.
>
> I'm not convinced that Matt was dragging the brakes during the testing
> .... just stopping and turning around generates an enormous amount of
> heat. Repetition, without letting the brakes cool down, is more than
> enough energy to cause a problem ... which is aggravated by the fact
> the wheel/brakes are enclosed in the wheel pants.
>
>
> I give Matt high marks though, for the braided lines .... I've
> personally known of two fires from melted plastic lines .... a
> Defiant left us in a blaze of glory and the other managed to burn the
> wheel pant and start a grass fire.
>
> I can surmise that the 'loose' fittings were fairly tight and the heat
> along with the tension from the hose loop caused them to rotate and
> then leak.
>
> As for the trip back to the hangar .... after he noticed the 'fire',
> Matt should have informed the tower to send the fire truck .... if
> there is one. There's no penalty for declaring an emergency and a
> worse outcome is a real possibility. Far easier to put out a small fire.
>
> While I'm on the soap-box ...... the next step for most 'preflight
> testing' is the crow-hop down the runway ..... lifting off and
> settling back down. When you're ready to fly .... put the pedal to
> the metal and go fly, and learn just how controllable your airplane is
> (and how to control it!) when you have some good altitude.
>
> My last comment ..... when you're in the first flight phase ..... talk
> to a flight adviser. You can't get a better bang for the buck in
> aviation!
>
> Now, for some perspective .... my good friend (now deceased)was in the
> process of building and RV-8 .... and it's getting it's first flight
> this Sat. I'll be getting checked out in it to help fly off the Phase
> 1 time. I'm looking forward to that. But I'll have a lot of dual
> before I'm off on my own.
> Linn
>
> Ollie Washburn wrote:
>> Matt,
>> Many have said and I think Van himself says, do not do high speed
>> taxi tests. What does it prove and you are certainly not doing any
>> favors to an engine that is not broken in.
>>
>> Ollie
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, cheathco <cheathco@cox.net
>> <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>> wrote:
>>
>> It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially
>> riding rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition
>> flights and taught me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on
>> takeoff. If needed you can still hold some ri brake, and you are
>> aware of it. My technique is to power up as I'm turning onto runway
>> and tork pulls me straight and by that time the rudder is ready to
>> work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H
>>
>> *
>>
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From Central Florida,
>> Ollie
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
The dual is in a different RV-8 I hope. The feds have made it crystal clear
that there are no circumstances where more than one person can be in an RV
during Phase 1.
> looking forward to that. But I'll have a lot of dual before
> I'm off on my own.
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... |
That's the ticket!
Bret
----- Original Message -----
From: "smittysrv" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:37 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)...
>
> I haven't finished my RV, so I don't have any advice from personal
> experience, but I do have a question. If the brakes stayed engaged, even
> after taking your foot off the pedals, would springs (like the ones I put
> in) help?
>
> http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=589
>
> Smitty
>
> --------
> Smittys RV-9A
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296035#296035
>
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Carpeting Question |
My Bobby, you have lovely hands...
Robin
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Hester
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Carpeting Question
My Classic Aero Carpet has the sound proofing foam glued to the back of it
and it fits tight and no glue or velcro is needed.
----
Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
Check out the latest on my website at:
http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhester/RVSite.htm
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