---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/28/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:52 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Charles Kuss) 2. 05:37 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (cheathco) 3. 06:07 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Ollie Washburn) 4. 06:44 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Dale Ensing) 5. 07:23 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Linn Walters) 6. 08:39 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (smittysrv) 7. 08:50 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Doug Weiler) 8. 09:50 AM - Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Greg) 9. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... (Bret Smith) 10. 10:10 AM - Re: Carpeting Question (Robin Marks) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:31 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... Matt, Your brake rotors are mostly likely now warped and unusable, due to the severe overheat. One more item to check and most likely replace. Charlie Kuss --- On Wed, 4/28/10, Matt Dralle wrote: > From: Matt Dralle > Subject: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... > To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 12:29 AM > > On the third taxi test, I headed out to the main runway at > Livermore, 25R and ask the tower for a high-speed taxi test > with no take off. It was approved as requested and > went great. There was about a 15-20 knot head wind at > about 270 which made it even more fun. The RV-8 > handled great and it was definitely ready to take off. > I only got to about 1/3 power and it would have taken off > with about 1/2 throttle probably. Oh my... What > will FULL throttle be like!? Now that's exciting! Be > sure to watch the Part 2 of this video because as the music > gets more intense, so does the testing! > > Third Taxi Test - Part 1 > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=pnz31m6aVEQ > > > After the taxi back on the regular taxi way, the tower > offered to let me run back the other direction on the > runway! I wasn't sure that's really what he was > suggesting and I had to verify that's what he really meant. > It was pretty cool and saved a lot of time. With the 15-20 > knot tailwind, though, I probably would have been better off > just using the taxi way. Now you'll notice the music is > getting a bit more intense. Be sure to watch Part 3 > because that's where this taxi test REALLY get's > interesting... > > Third Taxi Test - Part 2 > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=5zheOkSHfX4 > > > As you'll see in that part of the third taxi test, I lost > the brakes. As I'm taxing off the runway I noticed > that there was smoke coming out of both the left and right > sides. At the time, I really wasn't sure what caused > the brakes to get so hot. But, after watching the > video a couple of time and recalling back to what I was > doing, I'm positive that I was dragging the brakes on those > down-wind trips. I even remember thinking at one > point, "oh, I'm riding the brakes". Doesn't seem like they > should get so hot as to start smoking, but perhaps it was a > combination of being new, over worked, and a bit of brake > fluid leaking out and hitting the discs. Anyway, my comment > at the end of the video is kind of funny. It wasn't at the > time, mind you... :-) > > Third Taxi Test - Part 3 > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=57W-O8905cg > > > After I hosed the wheel pants and brakes down and got > things cooled off and no longer smoking, I had to push the > plane back to the hangar from the wash rack, which isn't too > far, but still kind of a long ways at the end of a > day. As I was pushing it back I noticed that there was > brake fluid leaking out of the right brake. I pushed > the plane about 1/2 the way into the hangar and took the > wheel pants off. Once I got the leaks stopped, I > pushed the plane the rest of the way in. It was kind > of a demoralizing sight to see the brake calipers smoked > like that, but it could have been a lot worse. > > A word to the wise - STAY OFF THE BRAKES!!! Its > really easy to drag them and this video is a document to > what can happen. > > Third Taxi Test - Epilogue > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=JlQjRWnbO2c > > > The brakes were pretty toasted as were the sidewalls of the > tires. There were little bits of rubber coming off the > sidewall around the wheel. The brake pads definitely > looked worn down some compared to the set I have on the > partially completed RV-4. So in the interest of not > holding up the test flight progress, I opted to use the > wheels, brakes, and tires from the RV-4 project to replace > the smoked components on the RV-8. I'll order a new > set for the RV-4 later. > > I spent the day jacking up the plane and swapping > pieces. I also took the opportunity to remove the > right master cylinder and fix the pesky high-pressure side > leak. Here's a video of the wheels, brakes, and tires > all replaced and ready for testing. > > Third Taxi Test - Post Epilogue > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=dL92Hwi0xnE > > > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV > YouTube Channel > Status: Test Flying > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:28 AM PST US From: "cheathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially riding rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition flights and taught me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on takeoff. If needed you can still hold some ri brake, and you are aware of it. My technique is to power up as I'm turning onto runway and tork pulls me straight and by that time the rudder is ready to work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... From: Ollie Washburn Matt, Many have said and I think Van himself says, do not do high speed taxi tests. What does it prove and you are certainly not doing any favors to an engine that is not broken in. Ollie On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, cheathco wrote: > It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially riding > rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition flights and taught > me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on takeoff. If needed you can > still hold some ri brake, and you are aware of it. My technique is to power > up as I'm turning onto runway and tork pulls me straight and by that time > the rudder is ready to work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H > > * > > * > > -- >From Central Florida, Ollie ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:45 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... Matt, The brake fluid "leak" at the reservoir was probably fluid that was forced up thru the vent when the fluid got hot and expanded. There should be no need for sealant on the treads of the vent plug as fluid will escape thru the ventcap anyway if it gets that high in the reservoir. My experience with my 6A is that I will get overflow, that runs down the firewall, if I keep the fluid level at the top of the reservoir. Just the normal warming of the fluid during taxi will cause enough expansion of the fluid even without overheating of the brakes. I live in an airpark and have a rather long taxi to the runway. I now keep the brake fluid level about 1/2 inch below the top. Dale Ensing RV-6A N118DE Aero Plantation NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:29 AM Subject: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... > > On the third taxi test, I headed out to the main runway at Livermore, 25R > and ask the tower for a high-speed taxi test with no take off. It was > approved as requested and went great. There was about a 15-20 knot head > wind at about 270 which made it even more fun. The RV-8 handled great and > it was definitely ready to take off. I only got to about 1/3 power and it > would have taken off with about 1/2 throttle probably. Oh my... What > will FULL throttle be like!? Now that's exciting! Be sure to watch the > Part 2 of this video because as the music gets more intense, so does the > testing! > > Third Taxi Test - Part 1 > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=pnz31m6aVEQ > > > After the taxi back on the regular taxi way, the tower offered to let me > run back the other direction on the runway! I wasn't sure that's really > what he was suggesting and I had to verify that's what he really meant. It > was pretty cool and saved a lot of time. With the 15-20 knot tailwind, > though, I probably would have been better off just using the taxi way. Now > you'll notice the music is getting a bit more intense. Be sure to watch > Part 3 because that's where this taxi test REALLY get's interesting... > > Third Taxi Test - Part 2 > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=5zheOkSHfX4 > > > As you'll see in that part of the third taxi test, I lost the brakes. As > I'm taxing off the runway I noticed that there was smoke coming out of > both the left and right sides. At the time, I really wasn't sure what > caused the brakes to get so hot. But, after watching the video a couple > of time and recalling back to what I was doing, I'm positive that I was > dragging the brakes on those down-wind trips. I even remember thinking at > one point, "oh, I'm riding the brakes". Doesn't seem like they should get > so hot as to start smoking, but perhaps it was a combination of being new, > over worked, and a bit of brake fluid leaking out and hitting the discs. > Anyway, my comment at the end of the video is kind of funny. It wasn't at > the time, mind you... :-) > > Third Taxi Test - Part 3 > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=57W-O8905cg > > > After I hosed the wheel pants and brakes down and got things cooled off > and no longer smoking, I had to push the plane back to the hangar from the > wash rack, which isn't too far, but still kind of a long ways at the end > of a day. As I was pushing it back I noticed that there was brake fluid > leaking out of the right brake. I pushed the plane about 1/2 the way into > the hangar and took the wheel pants off. Once I got the leaks stopped, I > pushed the plane the rest of the way in. It was kind of a demoralizing > sight to see the brake calipers smoked like that, but it could have been a > lot worse. > > A word to the wise - STAY OFF THE BRAKES!!! Its really easy to drag them > and this video is a document to what can happen. > > Third Taxi Test - Epilogue > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=JlQjRWnbO2c > > > The brakes were pretty toasted as were the sidewalls of the tires. There > were little bits of rubber coming off the sidewall around the wheel. The > brake pads definitely looked worn down some compared to the set I have on > the partially completed RV-4. So in the interest of not holding up the > test flight progress, I opted to use the wheels, brakes, and tires from > the RV-4 project to replace the smoked components on the RV-8. I'll order > a new set for the RV-4 later. > > I spent the day jacking up the plane and swapping pieces. I also took the > opportunity to remove the right master cylinder and fix the pesky > high-pressure side leak. Here's a video of the wheels, brakes, and tires > all replaced and ready for testing. > > Third Taxi Test - Post Epilogue > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8?v=dL92Hwi0xnE > > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: Test Flying > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:00 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... Some comments and observations .... not Matt-bashing. Ollie gets the gold star. High speed taxi tests don't accomplish anything, and often leads to off-surface excursions and unplanned flight. I'm not convinced that Matt was dragging the brakes during the testing .... just stopping and turning around generates an enormous amount of heat. Repetition, without letting the brakes cool down, is more than enough energy to cause a problem ... which is aggravated by the fact the wheel/brakes are enclosed in the wheel pants. I give Matt high marks though, for the braided lines .... I've personally known of two fires from melted plastic lines .... a Defiant left us in a blaze of glory and the other managed to burn the wheel pant and start a grass fire. I can surmise that the 'loose' fittings were fairly tight and the heat along with the tension from the hose loop caused them to rotate and then leak. As for the trip back to the hangar .... after he noticed the 'fire', Matt should have informed the tower to send the fire truck .... if there is one. There's no penalty for declaring an emergency and a worse outcome is a real possibility. Far easier to put out a small fire. While I'm on the soap-box ...... the next step for most 'preflight testing' is the crow-hop down the runway ..... lifting off and settling back down. When you're ready to fly .... put the pedal to the metal and go fly, and learn just how controllable your airplane is (and how to control it!) when you have some good altitude. My last comment ..... when you're in the first flight phase ..... talk to a flight adviser. You can't get a better bang for the buck in aviation! Now, for some perspective .... my good friend (now deceased)was in the process of building and RV-8 .... and it's getting it's first flight this Sat. I'll be getting checked out in it to help fly off the Phase 1 time. I'm looking forward to that. But I'll have a lot of dual before I'm off on my own. Linn Ollie Washburn wrote: > Matt, > > Many have said and I think Van himself says, do not do high speed taxi > tests. What does it prove and you are certainly not doing any favors to > an engine that is not broken in. > > Ollie > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, cheathco > wrote: > > It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially > riding rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition > flights and taught me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on > takeoff. If needed you can still hold some ri brake, and you are > aware of it. My technique is to power up as I'm turning onto runway > and tork pulls me straight and by that time the rudder is ready to > work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H > > * > > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > > > -- > From Central Florida, > Ollie > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:42 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... From: "smittysrv" I haven't finished my RV, so I don't have any advice from personal experience, but I do have a question. If the brakes stayed engaged, even after taking your foot off the pedals, would springs (like the ones I put in) help? http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=589 Smitty -------- Smittys RV-9A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296035#296035 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:00 AM PST US From: Doug Weiler Subject: Re: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... Matt and others: I have to chime in here and pass along a thought. Matt: I would highly suggest you terminate the taxi testing, get the checkout that you intended, and then go fly your airplane. I know you had Bart do an extensive break-in on your engine, but you are absolutely doing it no good taxing around on the ground with inadequate cooling. This is a large engine and it is not getting cooled properly doing what you are doing. High-speed taxis and "crow-hops: are dangerous and non-productive. I have made 8 first RV flights on a variety of models and speak from experience. Just my 2 cents worth. Doug Weiler pres, MN Wing RV-4/RV-7 Linn Walters wrote: > > Some comments and observations .... not Matt-bashing. > > Ollie gets the gold star. High speed taxi tests don't accomplish > anything, and often leads to off-surface excursions and unplanned flight. > > I'm not convinced that Matt was dragging the brakes during the testing > .... just stopping and turning around generates an enormous amount of > heat. Repetition, without letting the brakes cool down, is more than > enough energy to cause a problem ... which is aggravated by the fact > the wheel/brakes are enclosed in the wheel pants. > > > I give Matt high marks though, for the braided lines .... I've > personally known of two fires from melted plastic lines .... a > Defiant left us in a blaze of glory and the other managed to burn the > wheel pant and start a grass fire. > > I can surmise that the 'loose' fittings were fairly tight and the heat > along with the tension from the hose loop caused them to rotate and > then leak. > > As for the trip back to the hangar .... after he noticed the 'fire', > Matt should have informed the tower to send the fire truck .... if > there is one. There's no penalty for declaring an emergency and a > worse outcome is a real possibility. Far easier to put out a small fire. > > While I'm on the soap-box ...... the next step for most 'preflight > testing' is the crow-hop down the runway ..... lifting off and > settling back down. When you're ready to fly .... put the pedal to > the metal and go fly, and learn just how controllable your airplane is > (and how to control it!) when you have some good altitude. > > My last comment ..... when you're in the first flight phase ..... talk > to a flight adviser. You can't get a better bang for the buck in > aviation! > > Now, for some perspective .... my good friend (now deceased)was in the > process of building and RV-8 .... and it's getting it's first flight > this Sat. I'll be getting checked out in it to help fly off the Phase > 1 time. I'm looking forward to that. But I'll have a lot of dual > before I'm off on my own. > Linn > > Ollie Washburn wrote: >> Matt, >> Many have said and I think Van himself says, do not do high speed >> taxi tests. What does it prove and you are certainly not doing any >> favors to an engine that is not broken in. >> >> Ollie >> >> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, cheathco > > wrote: >> >> It is easy to accidently ride the brakes unconciously. especially >> riding rt on takeoff. Barefoot billy rode with me on transition >> flights and taught me to place my feet on sides of rudder pedals on >> takeoff. If needed you can still hold some ri brake, and you are >> aware of it. My technique is to power up as I'm turning onto runway >> and tork pulls me straight and by that time the rudder is ready to >> work and I dont need rt brake. Charlie H >> >> * >> >> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> >> >> >> -- >> From Central Florida, >> Ollie >> >> * >> >> >> * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:48 AM PST US From: "Greg" Subject: RE: RV-List: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... The dual is in a different RV-8 I hope. The feds have made it crystal clear that there are no circumstances where more than one person can be in an RV during Phase 1. > looking forward to that. But I'll have a lot of dual before > I'm off on my own. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:48 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... That's the ticket! Bret ----- Original Message ----- From: "smittysrv" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:37 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Third Taxi Test Video (Brakes Over Heat!)... > > I haven't finished my RV, so I don't have any advice from personal > experience, but I do have a question. If the brakes stayed engaged, even > after taking your foot off the pedals, would springs (like the ones I put > in) help? > > http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=589 > > Smitty > > -------- > Smittys RV-9A > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296035#296035 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:08 AM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV-List: Carpeting Question My Bobby, you have lovely hands... Robin Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Hester Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:39 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Carpeting Question My Classic Aero Carpet has the sound proofing foam glued to the back of it and it fits tight and no glue or velcro is needed. ---- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY Check out the latest on my website at: http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhester/RVSite.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.