RV-List Digest Archive

Tue 06/01/10


Total Messages Posted: 20



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:04 AM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... ()
     2. 05:52 AM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Richard Martin)
     3. 06:24 AM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (rv6@grandecom.net)
     4. 07:43 AM - Stormy's Fly-In 2010 (Bill Boyd)
     5. 07:43 AM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (John Bright)
     6. 08:42 AM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Chris Colohan)
     7. 10:41 AM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Dave Saylor)
     8. 12:45 PM - RV-9A on its back in Hanover County, VA (Bill Boyd)
     9. 01:22 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Kelly McMullen)
    10. 01:22 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (HCRV6@comcast.net)
    11. 02:30 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Rick Galati)
    12. 02:36 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Chris Colohan)
    13. 02:40 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Chris Colohan)
    14. 05:09 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Carl Froehlich)
    15. 08:14 PM - Re: Trouble with Altimeter (david cook)
    16. 08:42 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Kelly McMullen)
    17. 08:47 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Kelly McMullen)
    18. 09:00 PM - Re: Fixing a bad hole... (Kelly McMullen)
    19. 11:06 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
    20. 11:12 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:04:44 AM PST US
    From: <densing@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    If you are drilling holes for 3/32" rivets, shouldn't you be using a #40 drill and not a 3/32"? ---- Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> wrote: > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While drilling > the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked one of > the holes up.


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:52:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    From: Richard Martin <martinaerodrome@gmail.com>
    Use pilot point drill bits available at any good hardware store. Don't waste your time at Harbor Freight etc. Dick Martin RV8 N233M the fast one On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> wrote: > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While > drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked > one of the holes up. > > In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while > drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through > pictures: > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you > drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to > fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a > hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... > > (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an earlier > error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar doublers. > But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) > > Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new > Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: > http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The bit > appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can > drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per > hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) > while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of > bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" > bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to > drill straight with those bits. > > Thanks! > > Chris > > * > > * > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:24:08 AM PST US
    From: rv6@grandecom.net
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    Quoting Richard Martin <martinaerodrome@gmail.com> You might consider a # 8 screw and lock nut. T Jones RV9A > Use pilot point drill bits available at any good hardware store. Don't > waste your time at Harbor Freight etc. > Dick Martin > RV8 N233M > the fast one > > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> wrote: > >> I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While >> drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked >> one of the holes up. >> >> In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while >> drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through >> pictures: >> >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you >> drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to >> fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a >> hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... >> >> (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an earlier >> error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar doublers. >> But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) >> >> Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new >> Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: >> http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The bit >> appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can >> drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per >> hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) >> while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of >> bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" >> bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to >> drill straight with those bits. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chris >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:43:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Stormy's Fly-In 2010
    From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r@gmail.com>
    Hi, folks! It's June already - time for the 2010 river-float/BBQ fly-in at the Boyds' place. Location: Hop-Along Airfield, identifier 12VA - 2100 x 50 ft turf strip between Roanoke and Hot Springs, VA. Time: Arrivals welcome from 9 AM to Noon (or later, if need be). Schedule: BBQ lunch at 12:00 River float at 14:00 (Takes 1.5 - 2 hours) Activities available: Billiards, horse shoes, frisbee, hot tub, camp fire, chip & putt... (R.O.N. camping is available the night before and /or after the Fly-In. Contact us ahead of time if you want to take advantage of this, please.) Updates and more details to follow... We're looking forward to having y'all back this year! -Bill & Miriam Boyd


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:43:50 AM PST US
    From: John Bright <john_s_bright@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    It's only one hole of tens... not a structural issue... you could do your best with an oops rivet and move on. Is it a cosmetic issue with the skin? You don't show the skin... is the skin bungled-up also? You could fill around it on the exterior skin cosmetically with pro-seal when you mix it for the tanks. I like the 135 degree split points. IMO cobalt or TiN or whatever does not matter to us with this aluminum. Split points have less tendency to walk than 118 degree non split points but they will still walk. All drills make triangular holes in thin sheet metal. I use an electric drill that spins maybe 2,400 rpm and I go thru skin and doubler in 1 or 2 seconds. I don't know what's going on with 20-30 seconds but something is wrong. Thanks, John Bright o:757-864-2305 c:757-812-1909 ________________________________ From: Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 12:51:12 AM Subject: RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked one of the holes up. In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar doublers. But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The bit appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to drill straight with those bits. Thanks! Chris


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:42:29 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    From: Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com>
    This is a slightly unusual assembly in the RV-10. The spar comes pre-drilled with undersized holes in the flange. The doubler comes with no holes. You clamp the doubler on the spar, and drill through the existing spar flange holes and through the doubler with a 3/32" drill. When you later assemble the whole thing with the skin in place, you match drill everything (including the skin) with a #40 drill. So for this hole I've messed up the spar flange and doubler, and now have a misplaced hole to go under my pre-drilled skin (which I have not touched yet). I was hoping to find a solution which does not involve: (a) drilling another hole right next to the first mistake, since that would weaken the spar flange, or (b) making my skin look ugly. I fear this solution doesn't exist... Chris On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:58 AM, <densing@carolina.rr.com> wrote: > If you are drilling holes for 3/32" rivets, shouldn't you be using a #40 > drill and not a 3/32"? > > > ---- Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> wrote: > > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While > drilling > > the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked one > of > > the holes up. > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:41:10 AM PST US
    From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    You could countersink the mis-drilled hole and put a flush rivet in it, under the skin. Then using the pre-drilled skin as a template, drill the correct hole in the spar, and continue on. I'd think that one repair on the spar wouldn't have much if any effect on the overall strength. If you're concerned about the strength of the spar cap you could put a doubler under the existing row of rivets that picked up 6-8 holes. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> wrote: > This is a slightly unusual assembly in the RV-10. > > The spar comes pre-drilled with undersized holes in the flange. The > doubler comes with no holes. > > You clamp the doubler on the spar, and drill through the existing spar > flange holes and through the doubler with a 3/32" drill. When you later > assemble the whole thing with the skin in place, you match drill everything > (including the skin) with a #40 drill. > > So for this hole I've messed up the spar flange and doubler, and now have a > misplaced hole to go under my pre-drilled skin (which I have not touched > yet). I was hoping to find a solution which does not involve: (a) drilling > another hole right next to the first mistake, since that would weaken the > spar flange, or (b) making my skin look ugly. I fear this solution doesn't > exist... > > Chris > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:58 AM, <densing@carolina.rr.com> wrote: > >> If you are drilling holes for 3/32" rivets, shouldn't you be using a #40 >> drill and not a 3/32"? >> >> >> ---- Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> wrote: >> > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While >> drilling >> > the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked one >> of >> > the holes up. >> >> > * > > > * > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:45:08 PM PST US
    Subject: RV-9A on its back in Hanover County, VA
    From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r@gmail.com>
    http://www.nbc12.com/global/story.asp?s=12575399


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:22:07 PM PST US
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    Also, you need a drill with a good teasing trigger that you can start very slow, and only after the drill bit has started, run the speed up high. Chicago Pneumatics makes a good one that Avery sells for around $125, and there are the Sioux drills for about double that. On 6/1/2010 7:43 AM, John Bright wrote: > It's only one hole of tens... not a structural issue... you could do > your best with an oops rivet and move on. Is it a cosmetic issue with > the skin? You don't show the skin... is the skin bungled-up also? You > could fill around it on the exterior skin cosmetically with pro-seal > when you mix it for the tanks. > > I like the 135 degree split points. IMO cobalt or TiN or whatever does > not matter to us with this aluminum. Split points have less tendency > to walk than 118 degree non split points but they will still walk. All > drills make triangular holes in thin sheet metal. > > I use an electric drill that spins maybe 2,400 rpm and I go thru skin > and doubler in 1 or 2 seconds. I don't know what's going on with 20-30 > seconds but something is wrong. > Thanks, > > John Bright > o:757-864-2305 > c:757-812-1909 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tue, June 1, 2010 12:51:12 AM > *Subject:* RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... > > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While > drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I > mucked one of the holes up. > > In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways > while drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better > explained through pictures: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you > drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you > do to fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? > Drilling a hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet > larger than 1/8"... > > (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an > earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new > spar doublers. But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) > > Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand > new Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: > http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The > bit appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) > than it can drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about > 20-30 seconds per hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is > making its rated speed) while applying moderate pressure. Is this a > known problem with this type of bit, or is my drilling technique off? > I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" bits from Avery, but wanted to > know if I should expect it to be easier to drill straight with those bits. > > Thanks! > > Chris > > * > > > *


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:22:07 PM PST US
    From: HCRV6@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    Chris, However you fix this oops, save yourself a lot of headaches in the future by ordering a dozen or so #40 and #30 (for AN4 rivets) drill bits from Avery or Cleveland Tool. Do not use fractional drill bits for aircraft rivets. A sharp #40 drill should take no more than about 5 seconds to go thru that flange. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 692 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Colohan" <rv10@colohan.com> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 9:51:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked one of the holes up. In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar doublers. But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm ). The bit appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to drill straight with those bits. Thanks!


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:30:47 PM PST US
    From: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    Chris, - I see at least two ways of addressing that particular problem: - [IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/11lsxz9.jpg[/IMG] - First fix option: You could "pull" the hole over and clean-it up although I suspect it may need to go up to .1875 to do that perfectly.- Then afte r dimpling, the hole would require an AD6 rivet or more likely....a structu ral screw. The problem is you likely do not possess the proper tooling to c lean up the hole and even if you did, any 3/16" fastener would stand out li ke a sore thumb among all those AD3 rivets. Still, here is a link to "build ers tip" I once wrote that-describes-the technique of "pulling" or movi ng a hole over: - http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=11769&highlight= move+hole+bushing - Second fix option: This fix is what I would be inclined to do, because in t he end you can-install a regular AD3 rivet in the bad-hole as if it nev er existed.--Using a pattern file or similar, clean up the bad hole in the spar so no sharp edges exist.- Then fabricate an .032 doubler of a gi ven length.--You could install that doubler-by simply picking up a nu mber-of existing holes-in the spar OR you could fabricate it as shown i n the second picture by riveting it in place using a total of- four NAS10 97 rivets through the spar and doubler. Then later, when the skin is clecoe d into place, use the subject hole location on the match hole skin to-dri ll through the doubler.- The over-sized spar hole would be-effectively ignored.- Care must be taken to insure whatever dimpling you do-to the spar is effective.- Done properly, nobody but you will ever know. - Rick Galati - RV-6A RV-8


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:36:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    From: Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com>
    I have a bunch of these numbered bits from Avery -- but the in this one place the instructions call for drilling to 3/32" when you assemble the spar and doublers, and then match drilling up to #40 when you have the skins in place. I've now ordered some fractional aviation bits from Avery, and so when I redo this I'll have the right tools. Chris On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:15 PM, <HCRV6@comcast.net> wrote: > Chris, > > However you fix this oops, save yourself a lot of headaches in the future > by ordering a dozen or so #40 and #30 (for AN4 rivets) drill bits from Avery > or Cleveland Tool. Do not use fractional drill bits for aircraft rivets. A > sharp #40 drill should take no more than about 5 seconds to go thru that > flange. > > Harry Crosby > RV-6 N16CX, 692 hours > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Colohan" <rv10@colohan.com> > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 9:51:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... > > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While > drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked > one of the holes up. > > In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while > drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through > pictures: > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you > drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to > fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a > hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... > > (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an earlier > error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar doublers. > But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) > > Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new > Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: > http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The bit > appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can > drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per > hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) > while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of > bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" > bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to > drill straight with those bits. > > Thanks! > > Chris > > * > > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > * > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:40:41 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    From: Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com>
    I have the Avery drill -- the issue here is not that I started the hole in the wrong place, but that once the hole started through one piece of aluminum the bit managed to expand the hole sideways into a giant oval instead of drilling through the next piece. It acted more like a router than a drill. :-( After the messages on this list and off -- I've ordered new HS-1013 doublers from Van's, and will use this with my spare spar to redo the whole thing the right way. Chris On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote: > > Also, you need a drill with a good teasing trigger that you can start very > slow, and only after the drill bit has started, run the speed up high. > Chicago Pneumatics makes a good one that Avery sells for around $125, and > there are the Sioux drills for about double that. > > > On 6/1/2010 7:43 AM, John Bright wrote: > >> It's only one hole of tens... not a structural issue... you could do your >> best with an oops rivet and move on. Is it a cosmetic issue with the skin? >> You don't show the skin... is the skin bungled-up also? You could fill >> around it on the exterior skin cosmetically with pro-seal when you mix it >> for the tanks. >> >> I like the 135 degree split points. IMO cobalt or TiN or whatever does not >> matter to us with this aluminum. Split points have less tendency to walk >> than 118 degree non split points but they will still walk. All drills make >> triangular holes in thin sheet metal. >> >> I use an electric drill that spins maybe 2,400 rpm and I go thru skin and >> doubler in 1 or 2 seconds. I don't know what's going on with 20-30 seconds >> but something is wrong. >> Thanks, >> >> John Bright >> o:757-864-2305 >> c:757-812-1909 >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com> >> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com >> >> *Sent:* Tue, June 1, 2010 12:51:12 AM >> *Subject:* RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... >> >> I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While >> drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked >> one of the holes up. >> >> In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while >> drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through >> pictures: >> >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink >> >> So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you >> drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to >> fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a >> hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... >> >> (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an >> earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar >> doublers. But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) >> >> Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new >> Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: >> http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The bit >> appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can >> drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per >> hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) >> while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of >> bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" >> bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to >> drill straight with those bits. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chris >> >> * >> >> >> * >> > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 05:09:15 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
    Subject: Fixing a bad hole...
    The way I approach these kind of problems: 1. If you can drill it out to 1/8", then do so and use a 1/8" rivet. No one will ever see the one or two 1/8" rivets in the sea of 3/32" rivets. 2. If after drilling out the screw up the hole it too large, then just get a replacement part from Van's. The parts are cheap - especially when you think about flying this plane for 20-30 years and every time you look at the tail you wonder if you should have replace the part or not. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (550 hrs) RV-10 (systems install) From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Colohan Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 5:29 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... I have a bunch of these numbered bits from Avery -- but the in this one place the instructions call for drilling to 3/32" when you assemble the spar and doublers, and then match drilling up to #40 when you have the skins in place. I've now ordered some fractional aviation bits from Avery, and so when I redo this I'll have the right tools. Chris On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:15 PM, <HCRV6@comcast.net> wrote: Chris, However you fix this oops, save yourself a lot of headaches in the future by ordering a dozen or so #40 and #30 (for AN4 rivets) drill bits from Avery or Cleveland Tool. Do not use fractional drill bits for aircraft rivets. A sharp #40 drill should take no more than about 5 seconds to go thru that flange. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 692 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Colohan" <rv10@colohan.com> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 9:51:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I mucked one of the holes up. In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways while drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better explained through pictures: <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HH lTjwc?feat=directlink> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHl Tjwc?feat=directlink <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HH lTjwc?feat=directlink> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHl Tjwc?feat=directlink <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HH lTjwc?feat=directlink> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHl Tjwc?feat=directlink <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HH lTjwc?feat=directlink> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHl Tjwc?feat=directlink So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you do to fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? Drilling a hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new spar doublers. But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand new Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: <http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm> http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The bit appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) than it can drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about 20-30 seconds per hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) while applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this type of bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I should expect it to be easier to drill straight with those bits. Thanks! Chris t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:14:13 PM PST US
    From: david cook <davercook1501@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Trouble with Altimeter
    Went out to the airport today to blow out the static line and adjust the altimeter. It was back to normal. Took a flight and it worked OK. Had some flutter to it though. Don't know about it's longevity. David R. Cook N815DC RV-6 Flying ________________________________ From: david cook <davercook1501@yahoo.com> Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:17 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Trouble with Altimeter Thanks for the replies. I will let you know the end result. David R. Cook N815DC RV-6 Flying ________________________________ From: david cook <davercook1501@yahoo.com> Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 8:37:40 PM Subject: RV-List: Trouble with Altimeter Hi All My altimeter just went crazy. Jumped in the ole 6 and spotted the altitude had gone up 300 feet. Reset to field elevation and the pressure reading was 28.7. I looked around an there was no hurricane in sight. Any one have an explanation. The unit is only 3 years old from Vans. Do I just reset it or is there a problem? Dave David R. Cook N815DC RV-6 Flying


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:42:01 PM PST US
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    I agree with this approach. Done properly, there should be no strength compromise. You can also slightly countersink the underside of the bad hole, to give the shop head a better grip. In fact, I know there are a number of RV 10 wings that have this sort of repair where the plans call for one single lug nut plate in the middle of a bunch of two lug nut plates. Before long you will learn how to efficiently repair your mistakes, the plan mistakes, the QB facility mistakes, etc. In fact, fixing mistakes is one of the better skills you acquire as you move along. There are some who say you should just pick a finger to drill through, with a small bit, so it isn't a surprise when it happens. Since I had already done that long ago working on the motorhome type of RV, I figured I didn't need to repeat the experience. ;-p On 6/1/2010 10:35 AM, Dave Saylor wrote: > You could countersink the mis-drilled hole and put a flush rivet in > it, under the skin. Then using the pre-drilled skin as a template, > drill the correct hole in the spar, and continue on. I'd think that > one repair on the spar wouldn't have much if any effect on the overall > strength. If you're concerned about the strength of the spar cap you > could put a doubler under the existing row of rivets that picked up > 6-8 holes. > > Dave Saylor > AirCrafters LLC > 140 Aviation Way > Watsonville, CA 95076 > 831-722-9141 Shop > 831-750-0284 Cell > > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com > <mailto:rv10@colohan.com>> wrote: > > This is a slightly unusual assembly in the RV-10. > > The spar comes pre-drilled with undersized holes in the flange. > The doubler comes with no holes. > > You clamp the doubler on the spar, and drill through the existing > spar flange holes and through the doubler with a 3/32" drill. > When you later assemble the whole thing with the skin in place, > you match drill everything (including the skin) with a #40 drill. > > So for this hole I've messed up the spar flange and doubler, and > now have a misplaced hole to go under my pre-drilled skin (which I > have not touched yet). I was hoping to find a solution which does > not involve: (a) drilling another hole right next to the first > mistake, since that would weaken the spar flange, or (b) making my > skin look ugly. I fear this solution doesn't exist... > > Chris > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:58 AM, <densing@carolina.rr.com > <mailto:densing@carolina.rr.com>> wrote: > > If you are drilling holes for 3/32" rivets, shouldn't you be > using a #40 drill and not a 3/32"? > > > ---- Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com > <mailto:rv10@colohan.com>> wrote: > > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. > While drilling > > the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I > mucked one of > > the holes up. > > > * > > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > * > > > *


    Message 17


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    Time: 08:47:14 PM PST US
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    Personally, I have found that #41 drills make for a snugger fit dimpled hole. I use either the drill bit for new holes, or #41 chucking reamer to enlarge the pre-punched holes. The reamer both makes it unlikely you will get a hole where it isn't supposed to be, and leaves a smoother edge that needs less de-burring. Most of my skins were probably pre-punched to #42, and won't accept dimple die, but with #41 the dimple die fits perfectly. On 6/1/2010 1:15 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net wrote: > Chris, > > However you fix this oops, save yourself a lot of headaches in the > future by ordering a dozen or so #40 and #30 (for AN4 rivets) drill > bits from Avery or Cleveland Tool. Do not use fractional drill bits > for aircraft rivets. A sharp #40 drill should take no more than about > 5 seconds to go thru that flange. > > Harry Crosby > RV-6 N16CX, 692 hours > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Colohan" <rv10@colohan.com> > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 9:51:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... > > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. While > drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the forward spar, I > mucked one of the holes up. > > In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" sideways > while drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". Perhaps better > explained through pictures: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too large -- you > drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in it. But what can you > do to fix a hole which is misplaced? Is there a good fix for this? > Drilling a hole large enough to cover this error would take a rivet > larger than 1/8"... > > (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due to an > earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to order some new > spar doublers. But I'd like to first learn if I can fix this one.) > > Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a brand > new Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: > http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The > bit appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even better) > than it can drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also takes about > 20-30 seconds per hole drilling at 4000rpm (assuming my air drill is > making its rated speed) while applying moderate pressure. Is this a > known problem with this type of bit, or is my drilling technique off? > I've ordered some "aviation" 3/32" bits from Avery, but wanted to > know if I should expect it to be easier to drill straight with those bits. > > Thanks! > > Chris > * > > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > * > > > *


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:00:48 PM PST US
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    Subject: Re: Fixing a bad hole...
    Sounds like your drill bit was either bent, or not installed straight in the drill. You shouldn't get that kind of wobble from a drill bit. You can keep a few pieces of scrap to test a drill bit on before doing critical parts, and to fine tune your rivet gun pressures before driving any that will look bad if not driven right. Don't feel bad. I know one or two people that misread the instructions and misdrilled those doublers, needing to obtain new ones. When you get into wings and fuselage you will forget all those minor speed bumps on the tail. On 6/1/2010 2:27 PM, Chris Colohan wrote: > I have the Avery drill -- the issue here is not that I started the > hole in the wrong place, but that once the hole started through one > piece of aluminum the bit managed to expand the hole sideways into a > giant oval instead of drilling through the next piece. It acted more > like a router than a drill. :-( > > After the messages on this list and off -- I've ordered new HS-1013 > doublers from Van's, and will use this with my spare spar to redo the > whole thing the right way. > > Chris > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com > <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> wrote: > > <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> > > Also, you need a drill with a good teasing trigger that you can > start very slow, and only after the drill bit has started, run the > speed up high. Chicago Pneumatics makes a good one that Avery > sells for around $125, and there are the Sioux drills for about > double that. > > > On 6/1/2010 7:43 AM, John Bright wrote: > > It's only one hole of tens... not a structural issue... you > could do your best with an oops rivet and move on. Is it a > cosmetic issue with the skin? You don't show the skin... is > the skin bungled-up also? You could fill around it on the > exterior skin cosmetically with pro-seal when you mix it for > the tanks. > > I like the 135 degree split points. IMO cobalt or TiN or > whatever does not matter to us with this aluminum. Split > points have less tendency to walk than 118 degree non split > points but they will still walk. All drills make triangular > holes in thin sheet metal. > > I use an electric drill that spins maybe 2,400 rpm and I go > thru skin and doubler in 1 or 2 seconds. I don't know what's > going on with 20-30 seconds but something is wrong. > Thanks, > > John Bright > o:757-864-2305 > c:757-812-1909 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Chris Colohan <rv10@colohan.com <mailto:rv10@colohan.com>> > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com> > > *Sent:* Tue, June 1, 2010 12:51:12 AM > *Subject:* RV-List: Fixing a bad hole... > > I've reached the horizontal stabilizer in building my RV-10. > While drilling the 3/32" holes in the spar doublers for the > forward spar, I mucked one of the holes up. > > In particular, the drill appears to have slid about 3/32" > sideways while drilling, mis-placing the hole by 3/32". > Perhaps better explained through pictures: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YZEMcGR7IQ7RKKSRLDgTIKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eN0TsDBeAFqGoRwnEt8-s6Iqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e83Ltq54S8AOdpT-fXhSuKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JklKOOxA-qYDu9BtPMZJeKIqw9YRHPUJIjz5HHlTjwc?feat=directlink > > So I know how to fix a hole when you make it slightly too > large -- you drill it out larger and put an "oops" rivet in > it. But what can you do to fix a hole which is misplaced? Is > there a good fix for this? Drilling a hole large enough to > cover this error would take a rivet larger than 1/8"... > > (At worst, I can just replace the spar -- I have a spare, due > to an earlier error that Van's made, and so I'd just need to > order some new spar doublers. But I'd like to first learn if > I can fix this one.) > > Also, while I have your ear -- I made this error while using a > brand new Rigid Cobalt drill bit (like this one: > http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/332-Cobalt-Drill-Bit/EN/index.htm). The > bit appears to be able to cut sideways just as well (or even > better) than it can drill straight ahead in aluminum. It also > takes about 20-30 seconds per hole drilling at 4000rpm > (assuming my air drill is making its rated speed) while > applying moderate pressure. Is this a known problem with this > type of bit, or is my drilling technique off? I've ordered > some "aviation" 3/32" bits from Avery, but wanted to know if I > should expect it to be easier to drill straight with those bits. > > Thanks! > > Chris > > * > > > * > > > ========== > get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > * > > > *


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:06:41 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
    Dear Listers, Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains RV-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: rv-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "rv-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the RV-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the RV-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * RV-List.FAQ - Latest version of the RV-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * RV-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * RV-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * RV-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the RV-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:12:40 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Official RV-List Usage Guidelines
    Dear Listers, Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive




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