---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/29/10: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:54 AM - take off elevator trim (thomas sargent) 2. 10:22 AM - Re: take off elevator trim (Ralph E. Capen) 3. 11:50 AM - Re: take off elevator trim (Bill Boyd) 4. 02:25 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/28/10 (Martin Hone) 5. 02:33 PM - Re: take off elevator trim (Kevin Horton) 6. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/28/10 (Scott) 7. 05:22 PM - Re: take off elevator trim (Dan Bergeron) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:23 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: take off elevator trim From: thomas sargent I just did my dual training in an rv-7A with a constant speed prop and am about to fly my RV-6A with a fixed pitch Catto prop. The take offs in these things have amazing acceleration. With the constant speed plane I tended to always lift the nose too high and had to ease it down. I guess I had the stick back too far and it starts to be effective all at once so the nose would lift real fast. In retrospect it occurs to me that perhaps the take off elevator trim was set too nose heavy. How should the trim be set for take off? Should the tab be just in trail with the elevator? -- Tom Sargent ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:03 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: take off elevator trim Tom, For my 6A, MT 3 Blade CS, I neutral the elev and ail trims. With the stick back to be gentle on the nose gear, it does want to get in the air pretty fast - I need to push the stick a little forward as it gets light on the gear or it jumps and settles....grass strip. YMMV! Enjoy, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: thomas sargent >Sent: Jul 29, 2010 12:53 PM >To: rv-list >Subject: RV-List: take off elevator trim > >I just did my dual training in an rv-7A with a constant speed prop and am >about to fly my RV-6A with a fixed pitch Catto prop. The take offs in these >things have amazing acceleration. > >With the constant speed plane I tended to always lift the nose too high and >had to ease it down. I guess I had the stick back too far and it starts to >be effective all at once so the nose would lift real fast. In retrospect it >occurs to me that perhaps the take off elevator trim was set too nose >heavy. How should the trim be set for take off? Should the tab be just in >trail with the elevator? > >-- >Tom Sargent ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: take off elevator trim From: Bill Boyd Tom, I think that depends on your CG and chosen rotation speed (and flap setting) - it's experimentally derived at, and consists of whatever it takes to trim out the aft stick forces in a Vy climb that particular day. I know where it is on my trim tab indicator gauge, but that has no bearing on your ship. I also find it very easy to override trim forces at climb-out speeds, so a mis-set trim on takeoff is hardly noteworthy - just stick the nose where experience tells you it needs to be and see where the IAS settles, to make sure. Bill Boyd RV-6A 780 hours' worth On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:53 PM, thomas sargent wrote: > I just did my dual training in an rv-7A with a constant speed prop and am > about to fly my RV-6A with a fixed pitch Catto prop. The take offs in these > things have amazing acceleration. > > With the constant speed plane I tended to always lift the nose too high and > had to ease it down. I guess I had the stick back too far and it starts to > be effective all at once so the nose would lift real fast. In retrospect it > occurs to me that perhaps the take off elevator trim was set too nose > heavy. How should the trim be set for take off? Should the tab be just in > trail with the elevator? > > -- > Tom Sargent > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:24 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/28/10 From: Martin Hone Ok Dave, How did you snap roll your RV on take off ? Cheers Martin On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 4:59 PM, RV-List Digest Server < rv-list@matronics.com> wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-07-28&Archive=RV > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 10-07-28&Archive=RV > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > RV-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 07/28/10: 3 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 05:05 AM - Re: Osinga's Book about John Boyd strategy (David > Carter) > 2. 10:06 AM - Re: Osinga's Book about John Boyd strategy (Linn > Walters) > 3. 10:39 PM - Gary VanRemortel wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn > (Gary VanRemortel) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 05:05:09 AM PST US > From: "David Carter" > Subject: Re: RV-List: Osinga's Book about John Boyd strategy > > Here's a tip for EVERYONE: Type in www.worldcat.org in your browser's > address line, type in the name of the book you want to borrow through > inter-library loan (free, from any library in the world, even Russia), > next page will list variations of that book in a list, starting with > latest editions, then earlier. click on one that is close to what you > want; at resulting web page, scroll down slightly to the "Find a copy in > the library" section and enter your zip code in the "enter your > location" line and click "Find libraries" - the list starting just below > this line is now re-ordered to show libraries having the book sorted in > order of "closest to you" (shows mileage to library) then next closest, > etc. > . . . Then, be sure to scroll down slightly to the next section of that > page, "Buyit" and you will find this particular book by Osinga currently > costs $128 from Amazon - a real incentive to call your local library and > arrange FREE interlibrary loan of the book. > > Back on to an "RV-List" topic, anyone want to hear about my errors in > cross wind takeoff techniques? - and resulting lessons learned from > snap rolling my former RV-6 (tail dragger & tip up canopy) on liftoff on > takeoff in a strong crosswind and landing upside down on the centerline, > sliding off the runway upside down and crawling out from under? If you > klnow how to search the NTSB reports look at 5 April 2010, event at > Muleshoe, Texas, airport. > > David Carter > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 10:06:14 AM PST US > From: Linn Walters > Subject: Re: RV-List: Osinga's Book about John Boyd strategy > > David Carter wrote: > > Here's a tip for EVERYONE: Type in www.worldcat.org > > in your browser's address line, type in the > > name of the book you want to borrow through inter-library loan (free, > > from any library in the world, even Russia), next page will list > > variations of that book in a list, starting with latest editions, then > > earlier. click on one that is close to what you want; at resulting > > web page, scroll down slightly to the "Find a copy in the library" > > section and enter your zip code in the "enter your location" line and > > click "Find libraries" - the list starting just below this line is now > > re-ordered to show libraries having the book sorted in order of > > "closest to you" (shows mileage to library) then next closest, etc. > > . . . Then, be sure to scroll down slightly to the next section of > > that page, "Buyit" and you will find this particular book by Osinga > > currently costs $128 from Amazon - a real incentive to call your local > > library and arrange FREE interlibrary loan of the book. > Thanks for that tip!!! > > Back on to an "RV-List" topic, anyone want to hear about my errors in > > cross wind takeoff techniques? - and resulting lessons learned from > > snap rolling my former RV-6 (tail dragger & tip up canopy) on liftoff > > on takeoff in a strong crosswind and landing upside down on the > > centerline, sliding off the runway upside down and crawling out from > > under? If you klnow how to search the NTSB reports look at 5 April > > 2010, event at Muleshoe, Texas, airport. > Oh Wow! That hurts. I'm curious. What do you think your errors were??? > My educational experience was a 1/2 outside loop on a landing in my > Pitts, 16LW. Curtis Pitts said 'Never learned how to land it, did you.' > ...... after my 13 years of scratch free flying. > Linn > > > > > David Carter > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 10:39:10 PM PST US > From: Gary VanRemortel > Subject: RV-List: Gary VanRemortel wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn > > LinkedIn > ------------ > > > I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. > > - Gary VanRemortel > > Gary VanRemortel > Senior Mechanical Engineer at CPU Technology, Inc. > San Francisco Bay Area > > Confirm that you know Gary VanRemortel > https://www.linkedin.com/e/5sybz6-gc76ba21-4e/isd/1511432608/L8H6gn-B/ > > > ------ > (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:21 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: take off elevator trim The stick forces are light enough during the take-off that you should be able to put the stick wherever you need it to achieve the desired aircraft pitch response, no matter where the trim is set. Personally, I set the trim so that the aircraft will be approximately in trim when I am doing my initial climb right after take-off. That means the position I set the trim tab depends on whether I am solo or dual, as the CG of my RV-8 varies quite a bit between these conditions. It took a few flights of experimenting before I learned where the trim needs to be for various CG locations. -- Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:53, thomas sargent wrote: > I just did my dual training in an rv-7A with a constant speed prop and am > about to fly my RV-6A with a fixed pitch Catto prop. The take offs in these > things have amazing acceleration. > > With the constant speed plane I tended to always lift the nose too high and > had to ease it down. I guess I had the stick back too far and it starts to > be effective all at once so the nose would lift real fast. In retrospect it > occurs to me that perhaps the take off elevator trim was set too nose > heavy. How should the trim be set for take off? Should the tab be just in > trail with the elevator? > > -- > Tom Sargent > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:51 PM PST US From: Scott Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/28/10 If we're taking guesses, my guess is cross-controlled during a crosswind takeoff...with premature takeoff, stall, and thus the "snap". Martin Hone wrote: > Ok Dave, > > How did you snap roll your RV on take off ? > > Cheers > > Martin > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: take off elevator trim From: Dan Bergeron Tom: The RV nose wheel assembly will not tolerate a lot of abuse; I try to get the weight off it as soon as possible on takeoff, especially on rough runways, and to keep the weight off it as long as possible on landing. I have no experience with the 6, but with the 7 the elevator and rudder both become effective early in the takeoff role. For takeoff, you'll learn early on where to hold the nose to keep the weight off the nose gear, and of course to compensate for left yaw with right rudder. With the nose just slightly high I let it fly off; keep the nose low enough to allow the aircraft to accelerate in ground effect; then set up a climb at 100 kts and trim as required. (Of couse - on short fields and/or if you need to clear an obstacle the technique is different.) Elevator trim has never been an issue; I eyeball the trim tab during preflight to be sure it isn't in some extreme position. Otherwise I leave it whereever it was for landing and adjust it for climbout when convenient; stick forces are not that significant and are easily dealt with. I have electric trim. Dan Bergeron RV-7A - N307TB 177 hours since first flight on 08/04/10. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Kevin Horton wrote: > > The stick forces are light enough during the take-off that you should > be able to put the stick wherever you need it to achieve the desired > aircraft pitch response, no matter where the trim is set. Personally, > I set the trim so that the aircraft will be approximately in trim when > I am doing my initial climb right after take-off. That means the > position I set the trim tab depends on whether I am solo or dual, as > the CG of my RV-8 varies quite a bit between these conditions. It > took a few flights of experimenting before I learned where the trim > needs to be for various CG locations. > -- > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:53, thomas sargent wrote: > > I just did my dual training in an rv-7A with a constant speed prop and am > > about to fly my RV-6A with a fixed pitch Catto prop. The take offs in > these > > things have amazing acceleration. > > > > With the constant speed plane I tended to always lift the nose too high > and > > had to ease it down. I guess I had the stick back too far and it starts > to > > be effective all at once so the nose would lift real fast. In retrospect > it > > occurs to me that perhaps the take off elevator trim was set too nose > > heavy. How should the trim be set for take off? Should the tab be just > in > > trail with the elevator? > > > > -- > > Tom Sargent > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.