---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/11/11: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:06 AM - Airfoil Drag Video... (Bill Judge) 2. 09:05 AM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Bill Boyd) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:06 AM PST US From: Bill Judge Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... I don't have any authoritative source for saying this but I believe the spiral on your car antenna is to break up Karman Oscillations, not for drag reduction, they put these spirals on chimneys, cell towers and TV antennas so that the oscillations break up before the hardware does. http://peterlynnhimself.com/Why_Kites_Dont_Fly2.php#vonkarmaneffects Bill N84WJ rv-8.blogspot.com On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:59 PM, RV-List Digest Server < rv-list@matronics.com> wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-01-10&Archive=RV > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-01-10&Archive=RV > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > RV-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Mon 01/10/11: 6 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 09:32 AM - Airfoil Drag Video... (Matt Dralle) > 2. 11:25 AM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Ralph Finch) > 3. 11:39 AM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Bill Boyd) > 4. 12:23 PM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Doug Gray) > 5. 01:25 PM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Bill Boyd) > 6. 04:34 PM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Doug Gray) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:32:20 AM PST US > From: Matt Dralle > Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > Matt > > - > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... > > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 11:25:32 AM PST US > From: "Ralph Finch" > Subject: RE: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > > > Not repeatable therefore not real useful for comparison. The guy should > rotate the airfoils to minimum drag each time, otherwise, he doesn't know > if > they are in comparable positions. It's also a shame he didn't replace the > airfoil with an equal-flow-area rectangular shape. As a result he produces > confusing and misleading results, inferring that a round shape has more > drag > than a rectangular shape! > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 9:29 AM > rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > Matt > > - > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... > > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 11:39:34 AM PST US > Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > From: Bill Boyd > > Would like to see this repeated with the spiral-cut profile common on > automotive AM/FM whip antennas now. Seems to eliminate the resonant > vibrations - probably cuts drag by vortex generation, too. > > -Bill B > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ralph Finch >wrote: > > > > > Not repeatable therefore not real useful for comparison. The guy should > > rotate the airfoils to minimum drag each time, otherwise, he doesn't know > > if > > they are in comparable positions. It's also a shame he didn't replace the > > airfoil with an equal-flow-area rectangular shape. As a result he > produces > > confusing and misleading results, inferring that a round shape has more > > drag > > than a rectangular shape! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 9:29 AM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com; rv7-list@matronics.com; > rv8-list@matronics.com; > > rv10-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > > > > > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > > > Matt > > > > - > > Matt Dralle > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 12:23:08 PM PST US > Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > From: Doug Gray > > > For a clear easily understood mathematical discussion see page 27 and > Appendix A of this document: > www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publications/3442/DSTO-TR-1622.pdf > > After reading this I designed and manufactured my own gearleg fairings > with an accurate aerodynamic profile. Angled round whip antennas will > present an elliptical profile - this does reduce their drag coefficient > slightly. > > Doug Gray > RV-6 flying > > > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 09:29 -0800, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > > > Matt > > > > - > > Matt Dralle > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 01:25:44 PM PST US > Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > From: Bill Boyd > > Does the article give actual formulae or coordinates for that streamline > foil shape? So as to be able to construct one? How far off the ideal are > the commercially available fairings from Van's and some of the aftermarket > suppliers? Inquiring minds...!!! > > I always wondered how much the spiraling propeller slipstream would affect > ideal alignment of the gear leg fairings for minimum drag - and how to > determine this experimentally. Remotely adjustable-incidence tufted gear > leg fairings and remote cameras were the stuff of my pipe-dreams while my > fairings were being finished, but I never got around to it. Has anyone > done > the work and posted results? > > I know my RV is kinda slow for a 160hp FP 6A, but I always wondered how > much > room for improvement there still was. > > Stormy > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Doug Gray > wrote: > > > > > For a clear easily understood mathematical discussion see page 27 and > > Appendix A of this document: > > www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publications/3442/DSTO-TR-1622.pdf > > > > After reading this I designed and manufactured my own gearleg fairings > > with an accurate aerodynamic profile. Angled round whip antennas will > > present an elliptical profile - this does reduce their drag coefficient > > slightly. > > > > Doug Gray > > RV-6 flying > > > > > > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 09:29 -0800, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > > > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > - > > > Matt Dralle > > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > > > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > > > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 04:34:38 PM PST US > Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... > From: Doug Gray > > I used Javafoil to generate an NACA 63 airfoil plot and data points for > a section that was approximately what I needed in terms of thickness > ratio. I used 22% which gave me a wider fairing than most I have seen. > These were used as patterns to build the parts. > > Javafoil also gives drag co-efficients for the shapes. Plug these values > in the equations given. > > My guess is that the leading edge shape is critical, I cannot comment > about the accuracy of Vans or other parts. > > Doug > > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 16:16 -0500, Bill Boyd wrote: > > > Does the article give actual formulae or coordinates for that > > streamline foil shape? So as to be able to construct one? How far > > off the ideal are the commercially available fairings from Van's and > > some of the aftermarket suppliers? Inquiring minds...!!! > > > > > > > > I always wondered how much the spiraling propeller slipstream would > > affect ideal alignment of the gear leg fairings for minimum drag - > > and how to determine this experimentally. Remotely > > adjustable-incidence tufted gear leg fairings and remote cameras were > > the stuff of my pipe-dreams while my fairings were being finished, but > > I never got around to it. Has anyone done the work and posted > > results? > > > > > > I know my RV is kinda slow for a 160hp FP 6A, but I always wondered > > how much room for improvement there still was. > > > > > > Stormy > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Doug Gray > > wrote: > > > > > > > > For a clear easily understood mathematical discussion see page > > 27 and > > Appendix A of this document: > > www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publications/3442/DSTO-TR-1622.pdf > > > > After reading this I designed and manufactured my own gearleg > > fairings > > with an accurate aerodynamic profile. Angled round whip > > antennas will > > present an elliptical profile - this does reduce their drag > > coefficient > > slightly. > > > > Doug Gray > > RV-6 flying > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 09:29 -0800, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > > > > > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no > > idea... > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > - > > > Matt Dralle > > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > > > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube > > Channel > > > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========= > > get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > > ========= > > http://forums.matronics.com > > ========= > > le, List Admin. > > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... From: Bill Boyd I _knew_ it would have something to do with bad karman ;-) After all, as the link explains, the turbulence is a case of 'what goes around, comes around' - until it separates from the cylinder and collides with the stream coming 'round the other way. It would be interesting to know the actual drag of spiral-wrapped cylinders. We learned yesterday in the submarine hydrodynamics article that a cylinder has the same drag as a fat airfoil of chord sixty times (!) the diameter of the cylinder, so it would not surprise me if the automobile antenna with a spiral groove cut in it has less drag than a pure cylindrical wire. But the opposite could also be true; the result is not necessarily intuitive. I'd like to see data, just for grins. -BB On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Bill Judge wrote: > I don't have any authoritative source for saying this but I believe the > spiral on your car antenna is to break up Karman Oscillations, not for drag > reduction, they put these spirals on chimneys, cell towers and TV antennas > so that the oscillations break up before the hardware does. > > http://peterlynnhimself.com/Why_Kites_Dont_Fly2.php#vonkarmaneffects > rv-8.blogspot.com > > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:59 PM, RV-List Digest Server < > rv-list@matronics.com> wrote: > >> * >> >> ======================== >> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >> ======================== >> >> Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-01-10&Archive=RV >> >> Text Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-01-10&Archive=RV >> >> >> =============================================== >> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >> =============================================== >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> RV-List Digest Archive >> --- >> Total Messages Posted Mon 01/10/11: 6 >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Today's Message Index: >> ---------------------- >> >> 1. 09:32 AM - Airfoil Drag Video... (Matt Dralle) >> 2. 11:25 AM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Ralph Finch) >> 3. 11:39 AM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Bill Boyd) >> 4. 12:23 PM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Doug Gray) >> 5. 01:25 PM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Bill Boyd) >> 6. 04:34 PM - Re: Airfoil Drag Video... (Doug Gray) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 09:32:20 AM PST US >> From: Matt Dralle >> Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> >> >> This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >> Matt >> >> - >> Matt Dralle >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 2 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:25:32 AM PST US >> From: "Ralph Finch" >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> >> >> Not repeatable therefore not real useful for comparison. The guy should >> rotate the airfoils to minimum drag each time, otherwise, he doesn't know >> if >> they are in comparable positions. It's also a shame he didn't replace the >> airfoil with an equal-flow-area rectangular shape. As a result he produces >> confusing and misleading results, inferring that a round shape has more >> drag >> than a rectangular shape! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle >> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 9:29 AM >> rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> >> >> This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >> Matt >> >> - >> Matt Dralle >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 3 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:39:34 AM PST US >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> From: Bill Boyd >> >> Would like to see this repeated with the spiral-cut profile common on >> automotive AM/FM whip antennas now. Seems to eliminate the resonant >> vibrations - probably cuts drag by vortex generation, too. >> >> -Bill B >> >> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ralph Finch > >wrote: >> >> > >> > Not repeatable therefore not real useful for comparison. The guy should >> > rotate the airfoils to minimum drag each time, otherwise, he doesn't >> know >> > if >> > they are in comparable positions. It's also a shame he didn't replace >> the >> > airfoil with an equal-flow-area rectangular shape. As a result he >> produces >> > confusing and misleading results, inferring that a round shape has more >> > drag >> > than a rectangular shape! >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle >> > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 9:29 AM >> > To: rv-list@matronics.com; rv7-list@matronics.com; >> rv8-list@matronics.com; >> > rv10-list@matronics.com >> > Subject: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> > >> > >> > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... >> > >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> > >> > Matt >> > >> > - >> > Matt Dralle >> > RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... >> > >> > >> >> ________________________________ Message 4 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 12:23:08 PM PST US >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> From: Doug Gray >> >> >> For a clear easily understood mathematical discussion see page 27 and >> Appendix A of this document: >> www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publications/3442/DSTO-TR-1622.pdf >> >> After reading this I designed and manufactured my own gearleg fairings >> with an accurate aerodynamic profile. Angled round whip antennas will >> present an elliptical profile - this does reduce their drag coefficient >> slightly. >> >> Doug Gray >> RV-6 flying >> >> >> On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 09:29 -0800, Matt Dralle wrote: >> > >> > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... >> > >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> > >> > Matt >> > >> > - >> > Matt Dralle >> > RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 5 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 01:25:44 PM PST US >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> From: Bill Boyd >> >> Does the article give actual formulae or coordinates for that streamline >> foil shape? So as to be able to construct one? How far off the ideal are >> the commercially available fairings from Van's and some of the aftermarket >> suppliers? Inquiring minds...!!! >> >> I always wondered how much the spiraling propeller slipstream would affect >> ideal alignment of the gear leg fairings for minimum drag - and how to >> determine this experimentally. Remotely adjustable-incidence tufted gear >> leg fairings and remote cameras were the stuff of my pipe-dreams while my >> fairings were being finished, but I never got around to it. Has anyone >> done >> the work and posted results? >> >> I know my RV is kinda slow for a 160hp FP 6A, but I always wondered how >> much >> room for improvement there still was. >> >> Stormy >> >> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Doug Gray >> wrote: >> >> > >> > For a clear easily understood mathematical discussion see page 27 and >> > Appendix A of this document: >> > www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publications/3442/DSTO-TR-1622.pdf >> > >> > After reading this I designed and manufactured my own gearleg fairings >> > with an accurate aerodynamic profile. Angled round whip antennas will >> > present an elliptical profile - this does reduce their drag coefficient >> > slightly. >> > >> > Doug Gray >> > RV-6 flying >> > >> > >> > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 09:29 -0800, Matt Dralle wrote: >> > > >> > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no idea... >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> > > >> > > Matt >> > > >> > > - >> > > Matt Dralle >> > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> > > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> > > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> ________________________________ Message 6 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 04:34:38 PM PST US >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Airfoil Drag Video... >> From: Doug Gray >> >> I used Javafoil to generate an NACA 63 airfoil plot and data points for >> a section that was approximately what I needed in terms of thickness >> ratio. I used 22% which gave me a wider fairing than most I have seen. >> These were used as patterns to build the parts. >> >> Javafoil also gives drag co-efficients for the shapes. Plug these values >> in the equations given. >> >> My guess is that the leading edge shape is critical, I cannot comment >> about the accuracy of Vans or other parts. >> >> Doug >> >> On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 16:16 -0500, Bill Boyd wrote: >> >> > Does the article give actual formulae or coordinates for that >> > streamline foil shape? So as to be able to construct one? How far >> > off the ideal are the commercially available fairings from Van's and >> > some of the aftermarket suppliers? Inquiring minds...!!! >> > >> > >> > >> > I always wondered how much the spiraling propeller slipstream would >> > affect ideal alignment of the gear leg fairings for minimum drag - >> > and how to determine this experimentally. Remotely >> > adjustable-incidence tufted gear leg fairings and remote cameras were >> > the stuff of my pipe-dreams while my fairings were being finished, but >> > I never got around to it. Has anyone done the work and posted >> > results? >> > >> > >> > I know my RV is kinda slow for a 160hp FP 6A, but I always wondered >> > how much room for improvement there still was. >> > >> > >> > Stormy >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Doug Gray >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > For a clear easily understood mathematical discussion see page >> > 27 and >> > Appendix A of this document: >> > www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publications/3442/DSTO-TR-1622.pdf >> > >> > After reading this I designed and manufactured my own gearleg >> > fairings >> > with an accurate aerodynamic profile. Angled round whip >> > antennas will >> > present an elliptical profile - this does reduce their drag >> > coefficient >> > slightly. >> > >> > Doug Gray >> > RV-6 flying >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 09:29 -0800, Matt Dralle wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > This is a REALLY interesting video about drag. I had no >> > idea... >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> > > >> > > Matt >> > > >> > > - >> > > Matt Dralle >> > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> > > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> > > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube >> > Channel >> > > Status: 132+ Hours TTSN - The Fun Never Stops... >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > ========= >> > get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >> > ========= >> > http://forums.matronics.com >> > ========= >> > le, List Admin. >> > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > ========= >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.