---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/03/11: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:46 PM - AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it (RobHickman@aol.com) 2. 01:53 PM - Re: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it (Ralph E. Capen) 3. 02:39 PM - Re: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it (RobHickman@aol.com) 4. 04:56 PM - Re: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 10:11 PM - Re: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it (Ed Holyoke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:48 PM PST US From: RobHickman@aol.com Subject: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it I thought I better jump in here with an explanation on why we updated it. Most RV's only have two tanks so it is not an issue, the problem is when you have 4 tanks. We actually developed the software for the Glasair Sportsman. The Sportsman has two 15 gallon main tanks and two 10 gallon tip tanks, all 4 tanks have fuel sendors and we display all 4 tanks on the screen. The fuel computer has two buttons FILL MAINS and FILL ALL. If you press the FILL MAINS button it sets the gallons remaining to 30 gallons and gallons used to 20. If you press the FILL ALL button is sets the remaining to 50 and used to 0. If you only fill the mains technically you have used 20 gallons from what the aircraft is able to hold. If you keep the display in gallons remaining it will always show the correct amount. The following scenario is why we did it. Lets set the fuel computer gallons used to zero when you have only filled the mains. You go out and fly for 2 hours and burn 20 gallons of fuel, the gallons used shows 20. You or another person jumps in the plane in a week and sees that the gallons used is 20, you know that the plane holds 50 gallons so doing the math you have 30 gallons? No problem I am only going on a 2 hour trip..... about 10 gallons into the trip the engine stops. Rob Hickman Advanced Flight Systems Inc In a message dated 1/31/2011 5:02:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Thanks Greg - I didn't think I was being out of line to question this - as soon as I saw it I didn't like it. Your description matches how I have been using mine for the last two years..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg young" Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:11 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes > > You are not being picky at all. That is a bizarre way of thinking on their > part. One of the primary benefits of a totalizer is to know how much you > have flowed to the engine to give you a sanity check against the amount > you last added, what's shown on the level gauges and time. If you forget > to reset the totals or forget to note the total you start with the fuel > used provides no value. It also means you can't just zero the fuel used to > get a trip reading. I zero mine when flying in proficiency contests. If > there is any safety aspect to that it's not for your benefit but for their > protection. > > Greg Young > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 1:59 PM > To: rv-list; RV10-list; Avionics List > Subject: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes > > > First, I'll preface by saying that I really like the equipment that these > folks have for our planes and their customer service is top-notch - and I > am an outsider not related to the company other than as a customer. Not > bashing anyone here - just trying to get an understanding of who this > change impacts and how it impacts them. My configuration started as a > 3400EM - I have since upgraded to 3400sSP configuration (new processor and > screen in addition to six-pack display) to have a set of backup > instruments. The upgrade also included a Beta software release to fix a > couple of last minute bugs in my system. > > Here's the scoop: > > I have 19 gallons per side for main tanks and 9 gallons per side for tip > tanks for a total capacity of 56 gallons, with them all filled, the system > reports 56 gallons available. > > Previously, the "Fuel Used" display only showed that fuel that has flowed > through the flow-meter. If I only fill the mains, the system shows 38 > gallons available and zero used. As I ran the engine for my flight, the > "Fuel Used" display would increase from Zero by showing only fuel flowed > through the flow meter. > > Now, the "Fuel Used" display shows the fuel that has flowed through the > flow-meter plus the unfilled tanks. > If I only fill the mains, the system shows 38 gallons available and 18 > gallons used. As I ran the engine for my flight, the "Fuel Used" display > would increase from 18 while adding the fuel that has subsequently flowed > through the flow-meter. > > Somewhere during the flight, if I look at the "Fuel Used" display, I note > that what is reported is getting close to what I just put in.....18 > gallons early. Good safety margin - but not what I was expecting. > > I have queried the folks at AFS about this - they respond that the change > was made in the interest of safety and to reduce confusion. Yes, I could > simply not look at the "Fuel Used" display and only look at the "Fuel > Available" display and cross check that with my fuel guages and time > calculations for flight endurance planning purposes. I also asked for an > optional flowed-only mode or to allow the user the choice of calculation > methods (they still have the old code and it simply would be a system > setting). > > I know that I am not the only one having trouble with this change - AFS > indicated that they have received multiple indications of concern. > > Anyone else out there think this is an "odd change"? How are you > (planning to) accomodating this? I am planning to try ignoring the "Fuel > Used" display and see how that works....with a plan B of having multiple > configurations (with and without tip-tanks) that I can upluad when Iplan > to fuel the tiptanks. I don't expect them to change it back - but they > may provide options if enough folks ask for it. Or, am I being overly > picky about something that shouldn't matter - in the big picture? > > Your opinions please, > Ralph Capen > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:18 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it While I understand the reasoning behind the change, I don't necessarily agree with their validity. The changes do protect the pilot that doesn't do an adequate pre-flight from himself. The changes do protect the pilot/builder that didn't read the manual that came with the system from himself. Even the newest manual still states: "The fuel amount calculated from the starting fuel level you programmed in the system, minus the fuel used while the engine was running." I would still like to have the option of programming the starting fuel level. Meanwhile, I will continue to use the gallons remaining mode and manually calculate the burn each time to ensure my K-factor calibration is accurate. I have also asked for the software configuration changes that need to be made in order to remove the tiptanks and carry two configurations - so that I can load the other one depending on my mission requirements....haven't gotten a response on that one yet. I still think this is the best equipment available for this function. Hopefully, I have maintained a respectful disagreement. Ralph Capen -----Original Message----- >From: RobHickman@aol.com >Sent: Feb 3, 2011 3:12 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it > >I thought I better jump in here with an explanation on why we updated it. > >Most RV's only have two tanks so it is not an issue, the problem is when >you have 4 tanks. We actually developed the software for the Glasair >Sportsman. The Sportsman has two 15 gallon main tanks and two 10 gallon tip >tanks, all 4 tanks have fuel sendors and we display all 4 tanks on the >screen. The fuel computer has two buttons FILL MAINS and FILL ALL. If you >press the FILL MAINS button it sets the gallons remaining to 30 gallons and >gallons used to 20. If you press the FILL ALL button is sets the remaining >to 50 and used to 0. If you only fill the mains technically you have used 20 >gallons from what the aircraft is able to hold. If you keep the display >in gallons remaining it will always show the correct amount. > > >The following scenario is why we did it. Lets set the fuel computer >gallons used to zero when you have only filled the mains. You go out and fly for >2 hours and burn 20 gallons of fuel, the gallons used shows 20. You or >another person jumps in the plane in a week and sees that the gallons used is >20, you know that the plane holds 50 gallons so doing the math you have >30 gallons? No problem I am only going on a 2 hour trip..... about 10 >gallons into the trip the engine stops. > > >Rob Hickman >Advanced Flight Systems Inc > > >In a message dated 1/31/2011 5:02:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >recapen@earthlink.net writes: > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > >Thanks Greg - I didn't think I was being out of line to question this - as >soon as I saw it I didn't like it. Your description matches how I have >been >using mine for the last two years..... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Greg young" >To: >Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:11 PM >Subject: RE: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes > > >> >> You are not being picky at all. That is a bizarre way of thinking on >their >> part. One of the primary benefits of a totalizer is to know how much you >> have flowed to the engine to give you a sanity check against the amount >> you last added, what's shown on the level gauges and time. If you forget >> to reset the totals or forget to note the total you start with the fuel >> used provides no value. It also means you can't just zero the fuel used >to >> get a trip reading. I zero mine when flying in proficiency contests. If >> there is any safety aspect to that it's not for your benefit but for >their >> protection. >> >> Greg Young >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen >> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 1:59 PM >> To: rv-list; RV10-list; Avionics List >> Subject: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes >> >> >> First, I'll preface by saying that I really like the equipment that >these >> folks have for our planes and their customer service is top-notch - and >I >> am an outsider not related to the company other than as a customer. Not >> bashing anyone here - just trying to get an understanding of who this >> change impacts and how it impacts them. My configuration started as a >> 3400EM - I have since upgraded to 3400sSP configuration (new processor >and >> screen in addition to six-pack display) to have a set of backup >> instruments. The upgrade also included a Beta software release to fix a >> couple of last minute bugs in my system. >> >> Here's the scoop: >> >> I have 19 gallons per side for main tanks and 9 gallons per side for tip >> tanks for a total capacity of 56 gallons, with them all filled, the >system >> reports 56 gallons available. >> >> Previously, the "Fuel Used" display only showed that fuel that has >flowed >> through the flow-meter. If I only fill the mains, the system shows 38 >> gallons available and zero used. As I ran the engine for my flight, the > >> "Fuel Used" display would increase from Zero by showing only fuel flowed >> through the flow meter. >> >> Now, the "Fuel Used" display shows the fuel that has flowed through the >> flow-meter plus the unfilled tanks. >> If I only fill the mains, the system shows 38 gallons available and 18 >> gallons used. As I ran the engine for my flight, the "Fuel Used" >display >> would increase from 18 while adding the fuel that has subsequently >flowed >> through the flow-meter. >> >> Somewhere during the flight, if I look at the "Fuel Used" display, I >note >> that what is reported is getting close to what I just put in.....18 >> gallons early. Good safety margin - but not what I was expecting. >> >> I have queried the folks at AFS about this - they respond that the >change >> was made in the interest of safety and to reduce confusion. Yes, I >could >> simply not look at the "Fuel Used" display and only look at the "Fuel >> Available" display and cross check that with my fuel guages and time >> calculations for flight endurance planning purposes. I also asked for >an >> optional flowed-only mode or to allow the user the choice of calculation > >> methods (they still have the old code and it simply would be a system >> setting). >> >> I know that I am not the only one having trouble with this change - AFS >> indicated that they have received multiple indications of concern. >> >> Anyone else out there think this is an "odd change"? How are you >> (planning to) accomodating this? I am planning to try ignoring the >"Fuel >> Used" display and see how that works....with a plan B of having multiple >> configurations (with and without tip-tanks) that I can upluad when Iplan >> to fuel the tiptanks. I don't expect them to change it back - but they >> may provide options if enough folks ask for it. Or, am I being overly >> picky about something that shouldn't matter - in the big picture? >> >> Your opinions please, >> Ralph Capen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:28 PM PST US From: RobHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it In a message dated 2/3/2011 1:53:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: The changes do protect the pilot that doesn't do an adequate pre-flight from himself. The changes do protect the pilot/builder that didn't read the manual that came with the system from himself We did consult a very experienced aviation attorney and actually did it to protect ourselves. I have also asked for the software configuration changes that need to be made in order to remove the tiptanks and carry two configurations All you have to do is go into calibration and set the size of tank 3 and 4 to 0 and it will work, you can then use the knob to add more fuel when you use the tip tanks or set tanks 3 & 4 back when you use them. Rob Hickman Advanced Flight Systems Inc. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:03 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it Thanks for your response.....that makes sense. I'll try setting the size to zero this weekend. Please continue with these systems - they are great to fly behind! ----- Original Message ----- From: RobHickman@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 5:30 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it In a message dated 2/3/2011 1:53:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: The changes do protect the pilot that doesn't do an adequate pre-flight from himself. The changes do protect the pilot/builder that didn't read the manual that came with the system from himself We did consult a very experienced aviation attorney and actually did it to protect ourselves. I have also asked for the software configuration changes that need to be made in order to remove the tiptanks and carry two configurations All you have to do is go into calibration and set the size of tank 3 and 4 to 0 and it will work, you can then use the knob to add more fuel when you use the tip tanks or set tanks 3 & 4 back when you use them. Rob Hickman Advanced Flight Systems Inc. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:30 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: Re: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes Why we did it Howdy, I'm planning AFS for my next airplane. I'm sorry to hear that it behaves that way. I don't intend to have more than the standard two tanks, at least not at first, but I agree with Greg that it's bizarre logic. I'm opposed to programming equipment to satisfy lawyers instead of pilots. To say that the change was made to avoid confusion ignores the fact that a lot of confusion was just created. When you're tired and maybe a little hypoxic you don't need the further intellectual strain of trying to figure out why you have two different figures for how much gas you've got left. I've got an EI and I think that the way they do it makes more sense. When you power up, it shows fuel remaining and flashes a light to remind you to change it if you just fueled up. You can shift it to show fuel used - on this flight - it shows zero until you burn some. Fuel used resets to 0 for each flight. Fuel remaining is always what you told it was in the tanks minus what went through the flow sender until you tell it that you put more in. When I fill up, I subtract what it shows remaining from 38 and see how that jibes with what I pump. The proverbial sanity check. It also shows time to empty at current fuel flow. That's the most critical and useful function, in my book. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 2/3/2011 12:12 PM, RobHickman@aol.com wrote: > I thought I better jump in here with an explanation on why we updated it. > Most RV's only have two tanks so it is not an issue, the problem is > when you have 4 tanks. We actually developed the software for the > Glasair Sportsman. The Sportsman has two 15 gallon main tanks and two > 10 gallon tip tanks, all 4 tanks have fuel sendors and we display all > 4 tanks on the screen. The fuel computer has two buttons FILL MAINS > and FILL ALL. If you press the FILL MAINS button it sets the gallons > remaining to 30 gallons and gallons used to 20. If you press the > FILL ALL button is sets the remaining to 50 and used to 0. If you only > fill the mains technically you have used 20 gallons from what the > aircraft is able to hold. If you keep the display in gallons > remaining it will always show the correct amount. > The following scenario is why we did it. Lets set the fuel computer > gallons used to zero when you have only filled the mains. You go out > and fly for 2 hours and burn 20 gallons of fuel, the gallons used > shows 20. You or another person jumps in the plane in a week and sees > that the gallons used is 20, you know that the plane holds 50 gallons > so doing the math you have 30 gallons? No problem I am only going on > a 2 hour trip..... about 10 gallons into the trip the engine stops. > Rob Hickman > Advanced Flight Systems Inc > In a message dated 1/31/2011 5:02:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > recapen@earthlink.net writes: > > > > Thanks Greg - I didn't think I was being out of line to question > this - as > soon as I saw it I didn't like it. Your description matches how I > have been > using mine for the last two years..... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg young" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:11 PM > Subject: RE: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes > > > > > > You are not being picky at all. That is a bizarre way of > thinking on their > > part. One of the primary benefits of a totalizer is to know how > much you > > have flowed to the engine to give you a sanity check against the > amount > > you last added, what's shown on the level gauges and time. If > you forget > > to reset the totals or forget to note the total you start with > the fuel > > used provides no value. It also means you can't just zero the > fuel used to > > get a trip reading. I zero mine when flying in proficiency > contests. If > > there is any safety aspect to that it's not for your benefit but > for their > > protection. > > > > Greg Young > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph > E. Capen > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 1:59 PM > > To: rv-list; RV10-list; Avionics List > > Subject: RV-List: AFS fuel flow system display changes > > > > > > > First, I'll preface by saying that I really like the equipment > that these > > folks have for our planes and their customer service is > top-notch - and I > > am an outsider not related to the company other than as a > customer. Not > > bashing anyone here - just trying to get an understanding of who > this > > change impacts and how it impacts them. My configuration > started as a > > 3400EM - I have since upgraded to 3400sSP configuration (new > processor and > > screen in addition to six-pack display) to have a set of backup > > instruments. The upgrade also included a Beta software release > to fix a > > couple of last minute bugs in my system. > > > > Here's the scoop: > > > > I have 19 gallons per side for main tanks and 9 gallons per side > for tip > > tanks for a total capacity of 56 gallons, with them all filled, > the system > > reports 56 gallons available. > > > > Previously, the "Fuel Used" display only showed that fuel that > has flowed > > through the flow-meter. If I only fill the mains, the system > shows 38 > > gallons available and zero used. As I ran the engine for my > flight, the > > "Fuel Used" display would increase from Zero by showing only > fuel flowed > > through the flow meter. > > > > Now, the "Fuel Used" display shows the fuel that has flowed > through the > > flow-meter plus the unfilled tanks. > > If I only fill the mains, the system shows 38 gallons available > and 18 > > gallons used. As I ran the engine for my flight, the "Fuel > Used" display > > would increase from 18 while adding the fuel that has > subsequently flowed > > through the flow-meter. > > > > Somewhere during the flight, if I look at the "Fuel Used" > display, I note > > that what is reported is getting close to what I just put in.....18 > > gallons early. Good safety margin - but not what I was expecting. > > > > I have queried the folks at AFS about this - they respond that > the change > > was made in the interest of safety and to reduce confusion. > Yes, I could > > simply not look at the "Fuel Used" display and only look at the > "Fuel > > Available" display and cross check that with my fuel guages and > time > > calculations for flight endurance planning purposes. I also > asked for an > > optional flowed-only mode or to allow the user the choice of > calculation > > methods (they still have the old code and it simply would be a > system > > setting). > > > > I know that I am not the only one having trouble with this > change - AFS > > indicated that they have received multiple indications of concern. > > > > Anyone else out there think this is an "odd change"? How are you > > (planning to) accomodating this? I am planning to try ignoring > the "Fuel > > Used" display and see how that works....with a plan B of having > multiple > > configurations (with and without tip-tanks) that I can upluad > when Iplan > > to fuel the tiptanks. I don't expect them to change it back - > but they > > may provide options if enough folks ask for it. Or, am I being > overly > > picky about something that shouldn't matter - in the big picture? > > > > Your opinions please, > > Ralph Capen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List > Contribution Web Site p; > > > * > > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.