---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/09/11: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:01 AM - Re: PMag (Matt Dralle) 2. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: PMag (Linn Walters) 3. 12:06 PM - FOR SALE (Robert Murillo) 4. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: PMag (Ed Anderson) 5. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: PMag (Panama Red) 6. 02:27 PM - Re: FOR SALE (Ralph & Maria Finch) 7. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: PMag (Ed Holyoke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:48 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Re: PMag I was browsing the P-Mag web site this week. They look pretty cool, but the web site really makes no mention of whether there's any real performance/economy benefit to them. Does anyone have any real world experience along these lines? I've got two standard Slick mags on my IO-390. If I dumped $2200 on a pair of P-Mags, would I really notice any difference? The IO-390 already starts and runs great. More power and better economy are always welcome, though... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 150+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... At 10:36 AM 3/9/2011 Wednesday, you wrote: >Do they even still make the E-mag, the non self powered version? > >I wonder what the performance differences are between E/P-Mags and the competing LSE- Systems in terms of additional power output as well as fuel savings? > >I wonder if anyone has ever run a single LSE in conjunction with not a Magneto, but rather an E/P-Mag for two truly redundant electronic ignitions? > >Hmm, I wonder how they would work together, i.e. if both competing EI systems would be mixed on one engine??? Hmm...? > >Konrad > > >On Mar 9, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote: > >>I think the early problems are behind them. I have one on my 8A based on some recommendations of RV pilots I trust that have had no issues in years of use. I plan to place on eon my -10 when they finally release the 6 cylinder version. >>Like most systems I prefer diversity so I would never run two PMags but I would never run two Light speed either. >> >> >>Robin >> >> >>From: owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HCRV6@comcast.net >>Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:45 AM >>To: rv6-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >> >> >>HI Konrad, >> >>Well, the evidence seems to be accumulating that they have. More and more of them are in use in RV's in my area, KLVK, and so far it looks like they may have worked through those early problems. I remain somewhat cautious but thinking about starting with one and see how it goes. >> >>Harry Crosby >>RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Konrad/Conny" <klwerner@comcast.net> >>To: rv6-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2011 8:25:25 PM >>Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >> >>Hi Harry, >> >> >>Talking about P-Mags. Have they ironed out their infancy-/ teething problems in the few years that I was not paying much attention to it all? >> >> >>Konrad >> >> >> >>On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:58 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net wrote: >> >> >> >>I'm still here. My RV-6 has been flying for six+ years (805 hours and counting) but I follow several of the lists most of the time and reply if a question comes up that I can help with. >> >>BTW, someone recently posted on one of the lists something about putting together group purchases of P-Mags. I didn't think I was interested when I saw it but I am rethinking it. I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me who it was and how to get in touch with him, Thanks. >> >>Harry Crosby >>RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:28 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: PMag Matt. If it ain't broke ...... $2200 will buy a couple tanks of avgas .... Linn On 3/9/2011 1:54 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle > > I was browsing the P-Mag web site this week. They look pretty cool, but the web site really makes no mention of whether there's any real performance/economy benefit to them. Does anyone have any real world experience along these lines? > > I've got two standard Slick mags on my IO-390. If I dumped $2200 on a pair of P-Mags, would I really notice any difference? The IO-390 already starts and runs great. More power and better economy are always welcome, though... > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 150+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... > > > At 10:36 AM 3/9/2011 Wednesday, you wrote: >> Do they even still make the E-mag, the non self powered version? >> >> I wonder what the performance differences are between E/P-Mags and the competing LSE- Systems in terms of additional power output as well as fuel savings? >> >> I wonder if anyone has ever run a single LSE in conjunction with not a Magneto, but rather an E/P-Mag for two truly redundant electronic ignitions? >> >> Hmm, I wonder how they would work together, i.e. if both competing EI systems would be mixed on one engine??? Hmm...? >> >> Konrad >> >> >> On Mar 9, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote: >> >>> I think the early problems are behind them. I have one on my 8A based on some recommendations of RV pilots I trust that have had no issues in years of use. I plan to place on eon my -10 when they finally release the 6 cylinder version. >>> Like most systems I prefer diversity so I would never run two PMags but I would never run two Light speed either. >>> >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> From:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf OfHCRV6@comcast.net >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:45 AM >>> To:rv6-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>> >>> >>> HI Konrad, >>> >>> Well, the evidence seems to be accumulating that they have. More and more of them are in use in RV's in my area, KLVK, and so far it looks like they may have worked through those early problems. I remain somewhat cautious but thinking about starting with one and see how it goes. >>> >>> Harry Crosby >>> RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Konrad/Conny"<klwerner@comcast.net> >>> To:rv6-list@matronics.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2011 8:25:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>> >>> Hi Harry, >>> >>> >>> Talking about P-Mags. Have they ironed out their infancy-/ teething problems in the few years that I was not paying much attention to it all? >>> >>> >>> Konrad >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:58 PM,HCRV6@comcast.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm still here. My RV-6 has been flying for six+ years (805 hours and counting) but I follow several of the lists most of the time and reply if a question comes up that I can help with. >>> >>> BTW, someone recently posted on one of the lists something about putting together group purchases of P-Mags. I didn't think I was interested when I saw it but I am rethinking it. I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me who it was and how to get in touch with him, Thanks. >>> >>> Harry Crosby >>> RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:09 PM PST US From: Robert Murillo Subject: RV-List: FOR SALE Lost My medical: I have to sell my beautiful RV6A.. A steal at $36,000 FIRM has all the goodies... Plane at Deland Airport, Florida Nick picking,, tire kicking, need not apply.. If you have the money and are serious about, you got yourself e nice plane....have references friends pilots, who know my plane and me, for a long time. beautiful Yellow white and blue trim 150 HP Lyc. total time 100 hrs. call; 407.878.3491 after 7PM Bert ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:33 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: PMag Matt, In addition to many other nice features and factors, one of the "features" of the Pmag is that the ignition parameters can be changed by the user fairly easily. That is - such parameters as your maximum rpm limit, maximum ignition advance permitted, the aggressiveness of your advance curve, etc, can be changed. The Pmags come with two pre-set curves and "A" and a "B" curve, with the "B" curve being a bit more aggressive (by about 5 deg) than the stock Lycoming ignition advance. For most folk this is sufficient, but what some may not realize is that you can set up your own ignition configurations for your Pmags. For those with forced induction (turbocharger), the Pmag can be set up to use an even less aggressive advance curve than the stock Lycoming ignition set up. another example, if you fly with high compression pistons, it might be nice to have an ignition configuration that would retard ignition timing - if you ever had to use Mogas or low octane fuel. This would enable you to fly home without danger of damaging your engine. Another possibility is for those who like to fly at 17,500 MSL and would benefit from more ignition advance to gain better fuel economy - could set up a configuration with great ignition advance to meet those conditions. And for those individuals who perhaps like the pylon pattern, a "Race" ignition configuration might be set up, etc. The other thing that may be worth considering is the TBO for the Pmags - the last time I checked, I believe at 1400 hours the Emag folks wanted you to return the unit for a check up. So for some, this benefit may be worth the cost over time. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.eicommander.com -------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Dralle" Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 1:54 PM ; Subject: RV-List: Re: PMag > > I was browsing the P-Mag web site this week. They look pretty cool, but > the web site really makes no mention of whether there's any real > performance/economy benefit to them. Does anyone have any real world > experience along these lines? > > I've got two standard Slick mags on my IO-390. If I dumped $2200 on a > pair of P-Mags, would I really notice any difference? The IO-390 already > starts and runs great. More power and better economy are always welcome, > though... > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 150+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... > > > At 10:36 AM 3/9/2011 Wednesday, you wrote: >>Do they even still make the E-mag, the non self powered version? >> >>I wonder what the performance differences are between E/P-Mags and the >>competing LSE- Systems in terms of additional power output as well as fuel >>savings? >> >>I wonder if anyone has ever run a single LSE in conjunction with not a >>Magneto, but rather an E/P-Mag for two truly redundant electronic >>ignitions? >> >>Hmm, I wonder how they would work together, i.e. if both competing EI >>systems would be mixed on one engine??? Hmm...? >> >>Konrad >> >> >>On Mar 9, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote: >> >>>I think the early problems are behind them. I have one on my 8A based on >>>some recommendations of RV pilots I trust that have had no issues in >>>years of use. I plan to place on eon my -10 when they finally release the >>>6 cylinder version. >>>Like most systems I prefer diversity so I would never run two PMags but I >>>would never run two Light speed either. >>> >>> >>>Robin >>> >>> >>>From: >>>owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com] >>>On Behalf Of HCRV6@comcast.net >>>Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:45 AM >>>To: rv6-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>> >>> >>>HI Konrad, >>> >>>Well, the evidence seems to be accumulating that they have. More and >>>more of them are in use in RV's in my area, KLVK, and so far it looks >>>like they may have worked through those early problems. I remain >>>somewhat cautious but thinking about starting with one and see how it >>>goes. >>> >>>Harry Crosby >>>RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Konrad/Conny" <klwerner@comcast.net> >>>To: rv6-list@matronics.com >>>Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2011 8:25:25 PM >>>Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>> >>>Hi Harry, >>> >>> >>>Talking about P-Mags. Have they ironed out their infancy-/ teething >>>problems in the few years that I was not paying much attention to it all? >>> >>> >>>Konrad >>> >>> >>> >>>On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:58 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>I'm still here. My RV-6 has been flying for six+ years (805 hours and >>>counting) but I follow several of the lists most of the time and reply if >>>a question comes up that I can help with. >>> >>>BTW, someone recently posted on one of the lists something about putting >>>together group purchases of P-Mags. I didn't think I was interested when >>>I saw it but I am rethinking it. I would appreciate it if anyone could >>>tell me who it was and how to get in touch with him, Thanks. >>> >>>Harry Crosby >>>RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:00 PM PST US From: "Panama Red" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: PMag Wait until the slick mags need to be replaced/OH then go for the P-mag. There are a lots of extra upgrades that you will probably do over the life of the airplane, you do not have to do all them now! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linn Walters" Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:37 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: PMag > > Matt. If it ain't broke ...... > $2200 will buy a couple tanks of avgas .... > Linn > On 3/9/2011 1:54 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: >> --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle >> >> I was browsing the P-Mag web site this week. They look pretty cool, but >> the web site really makes no mention of whether there's any real >> performance/economy benefit to them. Does anyone have any real world >> experience along these lines? >> >> I've got two standard Slick mags on my IO-390. If I dumped $2200 on a >> pair of P-Mags, would I really notice any difference? The IO-390 already >> starts and runs great. More power and better economy are always >> welcome, though... >> >> Matt Dralle >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> Status: 150+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... >> >> >> At 10:36 AM 3/9/2011 Wednesday, you wrote: >>> Do they even still make the E-mag, the non self powered version? >>> >>> I wonder what the performance differences are between E/P-Mags and the >>> competing LSE- Systems in terms of additional power output as well as >>> fuel savings? >>> >>> I wonder if anyone has ever run a single LSE in conjunction with not a >>> Magneto, but rather an E/P-Mag for two truly redundant electronic >>> ignitions? >>> >>> Hmm, I wonder how they would work together, i.e. if both competing EI >>> systems would be mixed on one engine??? Hmm...? >>> >>> Konrad >>> >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote: >>> >>>> I think the early problems are behind them. I have one on my 8A based >>>> on some recommendations of RV pilots I trust that have had no issues in >>>> years of use. I plan to place on eon my -10 when they finally release >>>> the 6 cylinder version. >>>> Like most systems I prefer diversity so I would never run two PMags but >>>> I would never run two Light speed either. >>>> >>>> >>>> Robin >>>> >>>> >>>> From:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com >>>> [mailto:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com] >>>> On Behalf OfHCRV6@comcast.net >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:45 AM >>>> To:rv6-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>>> >>>> >>>> HI Konrad, >>>> >>>> Well, the evidence seems to be accumulating that they have. More and >>>> more of them are in use in RV's in my area, KLVK, and so far it looks >>>> like they may have worked through those early problems. I remain >>>> somewhat cautious but thinking about starting with one and see how it >>>> goes. >>>> >>>> Harry Crosby >>>> RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Konrad/Conny"<klwerner@comcast.net> >>>> To:rv6-list@matronics.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2011 8:25:25 PM >>>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>>> >>>> Hi Harry, >>>> >>>> >>>> Talking about P-Mags. Have they ironed out their infancy-/ teething >>>> problems in the few years that I was not paying much attention to it >>>> all? >>>> >>>> >>>> Konrad >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:58 PM,HCRV6@comcast.net >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm still here. My RV-6 has been flying for six+ years (805 hours and >>>> counting) but I follow several of the lists most of the time and reply >>>> if a question comes up that I can help with. >>>> >>>> BTW, someone recently posted on one of the lists something about >>>> putting together group purchases of P-Mags. I didn't think I was >>>> interested when I saw it but I am rethinking it. I would appreciate it >>>> if anyone could tell me who it was and how to get in touch with him, >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Harry Crosby >>>> RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:39 PM PST US From: "Ralph & Maria Finch" Subject: RE: RV-List: FOR SALE Yes, I am interested. Do you have a website with more information? I shall call also. Ralph Finch Davis, CA 530-756-7791 home 916-396-7702 cell -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Murillo Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: RV-List: FOR SALE Lost My medical: I have to sell my beautiful RV6A.. A steal at $36,000 FIRM has all the goodies... Plane at Deland Airport, Florida Nick picking,, tire kicking, need not apply.. If you have the money and are serious about, you got yourself e nice plane....have references friends pilots, who know my plane and me, for a long time. beautiful Yellow white and blue trim 150 HP Lyc. total time 100 hrs. call; 407.878.3491 after 7PM Bert ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:14 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: PMag The principal improvements of EIs over magnetos are a much hotter spark over a larger plug gap, spark advance as well as more reliability. A hotter spark will ignite a leaner mixture more reliably. It should start easier, too. Magnetos stay at the same timing whatever the RPM and manifold pressure, until the points wear anyway. They were made with no advance to avoid the possibility of detonation at high power settings. EIs advance at lower manifold pressure, where detonation margins are increased, to gain back some of the lost power that occurs as the flame front takes longer to make it's way across the bore. This puts the timing of the maximum cylinder pressure at the proper angle for the connecting rod to do it's best work. With one EI and one mag and when the EI is advanced, the magneto fires much later than the EI and much of the burn is over before the magneto contributes. If I turn mine off at altitude, it's barely noticeable, if at all. We have a Lightspeed and a Bendix on an O-320, so you know. There shouldn't be a problem with mixing brands of EIs. The advance curves aren't likely to be exactly the same and that probably won't matter much, especially if the maximum advance is the same for both. There should be a measurable fuel savings with the use of EIs. I can't document that as our plane has always been equipped like this. The Lightspeed has no moving parts which can be a consideration for reliability. The P-mag will run if electrical power to it is lost. Here's a link to an article from Sport Aviation that covers some of the basics of ignition systems: http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Technicalities/sport_aviation95.html I've flown for more than six years behind an EI and I do like it better than the magneto and trust it more. I've never had a fouled plug on the EI and the plugs are cheap enough to throw out every year. Can't say the same for the aviation plugs fired by magneto. I'm not trying to sell one EI system over another. Do your own research. With any electronic ignition, you'll get most of the performance/economy boost with the first one. A second one will add a little, but not as much. One approach might be to replace one mag with an EI and save the other mag for when the first one starts acting up. If and when the second one needs replaced, you'll probably want a second EI. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 3/9/2011 10:54 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle > > I was browsing the P-Mag web site this week. They look pretty cool, but the web site really makes no mention of whether there's any real performance/economy benefit to them. Does anyone have any real world experience along these lines? > > I've got two standard Slick mags on my IO-390. If I dumped $2200 on a pair of P-Mags, would I really notice any difference? The IO-390 already starts and runs great. More power and better economy are always welcome, though... > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 150+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... > > > At 10:36 AM 3/9/2011 Wednesday, you wrote: >> Do they even still make the E-mag, the non self powered version? >> >> I wonder what the performance differences are between E/P-Mags and the competing LSE- Systems in terms of additional power output as well as fuel savings? >> >> I wonder if anyone has ever run a single LSE in conjunction with not a Magneto, but rather an E/P-Mag for two truly redundant electronic ignitions? >> >> Hmm, I wonder how they would work together, i.e. if both competing EI systems would be mixed on one engine??? Hmm...? >> >> Konrad >> >> >> On Mar 9, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote: >> >>> I think the early problems are behind them. I have one on my 8A based on some recommendations of RV pilots I trust that have had no issues in years of use. I plan to place on eon my -10 when they finally release the 6 cylinder version. >>> Like most systems I prefer diversity so I would never run two PMags but I would never run two Light speed either. >>> >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> From:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv6-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf OfHCRV6@comcast.net >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:45 AM >>> To:rv6-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>> >>> >>> HI Konrad, >>> >>> Well, the evidence seems to be accumulating that they have. More and more of them are in use in RV's in my area, KLVK, and so far it looks like they may have worked through those early problems. I remain somewhat cautious but thinking about starting with one and see how it goes. >>> >>> Harry Crosby >>> RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Konrad/Conny"<klwerner@comcast.net> >>> To:rv6-list@matronics.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2011 8:25:25 PM >>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Anyone here? >>> >>> Hi Harry, >>> >>> >>> Talking about P-Mags. Have they ironed out their infancy-/ teething problems in the few years that I was not paying much attention to it all? >>> >>> >>> Konrad >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:58 PM,HCRV6@comcast.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm still here. My RV-6 has been flying for six+ years (805 hours and counting) but I follow several of the lists most of the time and reply if a question comes up that I can help with. >>> >>> BTW, someone recently posted on one of the lists something about putting together group purchases of P-Mags. I didn't think I was interested when I saw it but I am rethinking it. I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me who it was and how to get in touch with him, Thanks. >>> >>> Harry Crosby >>> RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.