RV-List Digest Archive

Wed 03/23/11


Total Messages Posted: 17



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:36 AM - Re: max gross weight test (Kyle Boatright)
     2. 05:54 AM - Re: RV7-List: Re: RV-8 Insurance... (Dave Henderson)
     3. 07:16 AM - Re: RV-8 Insurance... (mr.gsun@gmail.com)
     4. 07:20 AM - Re: max gross weight test (Ralph E. Capen)
     5. 07:31 AM - Re: max gross weight test (Linn Walters)
     6. 07:42 AM - Re: max gross weight test (jfogarty tds.net)
     7. 08:58 AM - Re: max gross weight test (Andrew Zachar)
     8. 11:28 AM - Re: max gross weight test (Louis Willig)
     9. 02:37 PM - Re: max gross weight test (Linn Walters)
    10. 02:44 PM - Re: max gross weight test (Andrew Zachar)
    11. 03:07 PM - Re: max gross weight test (Scott)
    12. 06:28 PM - Re: max gross weight test (HCRV6@comcast.net)
    13. 08:03 PM - Re: RV-8 Insurance... (Matt Dralle)
    14. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: RV-8 Insurance... (HCRV6@comcast.net)
    15. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: RV-8 Insurance... (vanremog)
    16. 08:56 PM - RV6 fuel tank sealant (N81JG@aol.com)
    17. 09:07 PM - links to common aviation insurers (vanremog)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:36:46 AM PST US
    From: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    I'm conserving vowls these days. ;-) Kyle Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: vanremog To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:29 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: max gross weight test I'll take the obvious cheap shot here (because I can) about taking advice from a guy who can't even spell his own name, but Kyle is correct about sneaking up on it. ;o) I would go further and suggest that you take a big guy with you who can also reposition the moment arm of the sand bags in the baggage area while you fly the plane. -GV In a message dated 03/22/11 15:56:24 Pacific Daylight Time, kboatright1@comcast.net writes: One thing I would recommend would be to go ahead and test to Van's published aft CG limit. One day (light fuel, big pax, lotsa luggage, etc.) you will probably find the airplane near that aft limit. Better to know test under those conditions (how much trim will you need? How will the stall behave?), than to experience it for the first time with a passenger on board. My $0.02 Kyle Botright


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:54:02 AM PST US
    From: "Dave Henderson" <wf-k@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: RE: RV7-List: Re: RV-8 Insurance...
    Good Grief, I paid half that on $100,000 RV-7. I have the same amount of hours in type and total. I suggest you contact my agent and ask her for a quote: klehman@andreini.com Direct 650-378-4310 No harm in at least asking. Dave Henderson RV-7 N925LW (Lord Willing) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:56 PM rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV7-List: Re: RV-8 Insurance... --> RV7-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com> Here's this year's Insurance Quotes along with the coverage details on my RV-8. Can you guess which one I went with? $1m/$100k Liability $5000-$10000 Medical $0 Deductible $150k Hull Ground/Air 153 Hours, Aircraft 153 Hours in Type, Pilot 450 Hours Total, Pilot 242 Hours TW, Pilot Avemco: $5811 EAA/Falcon: $2975 ($3075 last year included Test & 1st 10 hours) NationAir/Chartis $2888 AOPA/AIG $2475 - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do...


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:16:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: RV-8 Insurance...
    From: mr.gsun@gmail.com
    Just for the sake of comparison, here is what I'm being gouged. 2004 RV7 $1790 thru Chartis $100K hull value 510 hrs total time on airframe 520 hrs total pilot time 350 hrs tailwheel time IFR current Greg I'm thinking of just going to "not in motion" coverage. do not archive On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@newwavecomm.net>wrote: > RV-7A unpainted > > 1st year 2007 > 0 hrs TT (Hobbs), 5 hrs in type, $70,000 hull = $1702 > 2nd year 2008 > About 150 hrs TT, 135 (Tach) hrs in type, $70,000 hull = $1621 > 3rd year 2009 > About 250 hrs TT, 200 hrs in type, $70,000 hull = $1465 > 4th year 2010 > About 320 hrs TT, 270 hrs in type, $70,000 hull = $1465 > 5th year 2008 still unpainted :-( > About 400 hrs TT, 320 hrs in type, $70,000 hull = $1297 > > Global Aerospace though NationAir > > ---- > Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY > Visit my web site:http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhester/RVSite.htm > > > On 3/22/2011 8:05 AM, Gene Lee wrote: > > In the interest of seeing what others pay I=92ll offer mine. > > > RV-7a > > > 1st year=85 > > 260hr TT, 0 in type, $95k hull = $2,200 > > > 2nd year=85 > > 420hr TT, 130hr in type, $95k hull = $1,440 > > > Chartis Aerospace Ins. > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:20:00 AM PST US
    From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    I did mine in stages. It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... -----Original Message----- >From: thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> >Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM >To: rv-list <rv-list@matronics.com> >Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test > >I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs and >will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I >know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in my >tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. > >Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's >still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it >that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or >72.5". > >Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it >reasonable to just go for it in one flight? > >-- >Tom Sargent


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:31:52 AM PST US
    From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    Too bad we have to do the phase 1 testing solo. It would be nice to take a fat friend for a ride!!!! Linn On 3/23/2011 10:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen"<recapen@earthlink.net> > > I did mine in stages. > > It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: thomas sargent<sarg314@gmail.com> >> Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM >> To: rv-list<rv-list@matronics.com> >> Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test >> >> I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs and >> will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I >> know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in my >> tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. >> >> Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's >> still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it >> that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or >> 72.5". >> >> Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it >> reasonable to just go for it in one flight? >> >> -- >> Tom Sargent > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:42:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    From: "jfogarty tds.net" <jfogarty@tds.net>
    Great post Kyle. Thanks for sharing this information. Jim On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Kyle Boatright <kboatright1@comcast.net>wrote: > Thomas, > > I recommend approaching the gross weight and aft CG gradually. IIRC, I was > right in the envelope expansion process about 10 years ago. What I did was > ballast the airplane about 50 lbs at a time to increase the weight up to > gross. Then I adjusted ballast to move the CG rearward in ~1/2" increments. > What I found was that the last 75 pounds of weight and the last inch or two > of CG travel were very noticeable. > > One thing I would recommend would be to go ahead and test to Van's > published aft CG limit. One day (light fuel, big pax, lotsa luggage, etc.) > you will probably find the airplane near that aft limit. Better to know > test under those conditions (how much trim will you need? How will the > stall behave?), than to experience it for the first time with a passenger on > board. > > My $0.02 > > Kyle Botright > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> > *To:* rv-list <rv-list@matronics.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:06 PM > *Subject:* RV-List: max gross weight test > > I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs and > will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I > know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in my > tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. > > Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's > still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it > that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or > 72.5". > > Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it > reasonable to just go for it in one flight? > > -- > Tom Sargent > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:58:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    From: Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com>
    I'm far from getting into phase 1 with my RV-7, but I have a little insight from my day job. We approach weight and CG changes with great care and in many small steps. Generally, someone like Van's will put weight and CG limits on the airplane because outside of those limits, some limit may be exceeded (this could be a handling requirement if it's a certified airplane, etc.). >From some guidance material, the effects of higher weights on the aircraft: -Higher takeoff speed. -Longer takeoff run. -Reduced rate and angle of climb. -Lower maximum altitude. -Shorter range (more weight lifted = more work done = more fuel requi red). -Reduced cruising speed. -Reduced maneuverability. -Higher stalling speed. -Higher landing speed. -Longer landing roll. -Excessive weight on the nosewheel. The effects of adverse CG conditions can be: FWD CG causes problems in controlling and raising the nose AFT CG affects longitudinal stability, and can reduce the airplane=92s capability to recover from stalls and spins (decreased rudder and elevator moments due to shorter arm (distance) from CG to control surfaces). AFT CG also yields very light control forces. (This makes it easy for the pilot to inadvertently overstress the airplane.) FWD CG is also limited by elevator effectiveness at slow speeds. Anyway, the point is that by expanding the envelopes during testing, you ca n watch for these effects. If you do it slowly, you can watch for trends, instead of just going to the endpoint all in one go and getting yourself into a situation where something (like light longitudinal control forces) can get you into trouble if you aren't expecting it. Hope this helps. -az On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net>wro te: > > I did mine in stages. > > It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com> > >Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM > >To: rv-list <rv-list@matronics.com> > >Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test > > > >I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs > and > >will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I > >know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in > my > >tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. > > > >Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's > >still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it > >that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or > >72.5". > > > >Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it > >reasonable to just go for it in one flight? > > > >-- > >Tom Sargent > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:28:29 AM PST US
    From: Louis Willig <larywil@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    Andrew, this is an excellent post. Wish you gave us your "day job" description. It sounds interesting. I wasn't going to post on this question, since many members on this list have so much more experience than I have. However, as a 12 year RV-4 veteran, I just want to re-enforce your CG guidelines. Most of us quickly feel the effects of extra gross weight each time we take off after refueling, or take off or land with a passenger. What we don't "feel" as quickly or as often is the effects of pushing close to the CG limits. We are constantly making small adjustments in trim while always remaining within the envelope. It would be a shock to most of us if we made these adjustments to a plane that was loaded near the edge to start with. I had an "aft CG" experience many years ago with a passenger who weighed 240#. I don't know how he even fit in the back seat, but he did. And I didn't realize what I was doing ( yes, I was stupid). When landing, I failed to add extra speed, and the aircraft stalled sharply, dropped a wing, and raised my blood pressure. All this, in the blink of an eye, with no telltale to a novice like me. I was only 6 inches off the ground but you would have thought I was two feet high. No damage, but very embarrassing. This problem is probably more acute in the -4's and -8's. So we pay more attention to CG. Look, I am not experience or capable enough to advise anyone how to fly their RV. I just thought I would step in to say that an aft CG lightens the stick feel under some circumstances (when you are already slow and trimmed forward) and can help you learn the "Flying Farmer" routine very quickly. :-) Louis At 11:54 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: >I'm far from getting into phase 1 with my RV-7, >but I have a little insight from my day job. > >We approach weight and CG changes with great >care and in many small steps. Generally, someone >like Van's will put weight and CG limits on the >airplane because outside of those limits, some >limit may be exceeded (this could be a handling >requirement if it's a certified airplane, etc.). > > From some guidance material, the effects of higher weights on the aircraft: > >Higher takeoff speed. >Longer takeoff run. >Reduced rate and angle of climb. >Lower maximum altitude. >Shorter range (more weight lifted = more work done = more fuel required). >Reduced cruising speed. >Reduced maneuverability. >Higher stalling speed. >Higher landing speed. >Longer landing roll. >Excessive weight on the nosewheel. > >The effects of adverse CG conditions can be: > >FWD CG causes problems in controlling and raising the nose >AFT CG affects longitudinal stability, and can >reduce the airplanes capability to recover from >stalls and spins (decreased rudder and elevator >moments due to shorter arm (distance) from CG to control surfaces). >AFT CG also yields very light control forces. >(This makes it easy for the pilot to inadvertently overstress the airplane.) >FWD CG is also limited by elevator effectiveness at slow speeds. > >Anyway, the point is that by expanding the >envelopes during testing, you can watch for >these effects. If you do it slowly, you can >watch for trends, instead of just going to the >endpoint all in one go and getting yourself into >a situation where something (like light >longitudinal control forces) can get you into >trouble if you aren't expecting it. > >Hope this helps. > >-az > >On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen ><<mailto:recapen@earthlink.net>recapen@earthlink.net> wrote: ><<mailto:recapen@earthlink.net>recapen@earthlink.net> > >I did mine in stages. > >It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: thomas sargent <<mailto:sarg314@gmail.com>sarg314@gmail.com> > >Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM > >To: rv-list <<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>rv-list@matronics.com> > >Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test > > > >I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs and > >will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I > >know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in my > >tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. > > > >Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's > >still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it > >that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or > >72.5". > > > >Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it > >reasonable to just go for it in one flight? > > > >-- > >Tom Sargent > > >======================= >get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >========== >http://forums.matronics.com >========== >le, List Admin. >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >========== > > >-- >Andrew Zachar ><mailto:andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com>andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com >


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:37:27 PM PST US
    From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    Good post Louis. If you're gonna push the CG limits, don't push the aft one. When things get hairy an aft CG is the worst to recover from, and unfortunately it gets hairy close to the ground. Having said that, when you find what loading gets you close to aft CG ...... make a note in your aircraft manual what those weights are, and when you have large passengers/baggage, take the time to check. Oh, and use your calibrated eye .... all us overweight people lie about our weight. :-P As for your 'plop' .... it was an educational experience ..... and we re-learn all to frequently. Embarrassing? Shouldn't have been ..... you get to use the plane again. Here's a video of a bad landing ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aydbBl6_W0... Feel better??? Linn On 3/23/2011 2:09 PM, Louis Willig wrote: > > > Andrew, this is an excellent post. Wish you gave us your "day job" > description. It sounds interesting. > > I wasn't going to post on this question, since many members on this > list have so much more experience than I have. However, as a 12 year > RV-4 veteran, I just want to re-enforce your CG guidelines. Most of us > quickly feel the effects of extra gross weight each time we take off > after refueling, or take off or land with a passenger. What we don't > "feel" as quickly or as often is the effects of pushing close to the > CG limits. We are constantly making small adjustments in trim while > always remaining within the envelope. It would be a shock to most of > us if we made these adjustments to a plane that was loaded near the > edge to start with. > > I had an "aft CG" experience many years ago with a passenger who > weighed 240#. I don't know how he even fit in the back seat, but he > did. And I didn't realize what I was doing ( yes, I was stupid). When > landing, I failed to add extra speed, and the aircraft stalled > sharply, dropped a wing, and raised my blood pressure. All this, in > the blink of an eye, with no telltale to a novice like me. I was only > 6 inches off the ground but you would have thought I was two feet > high. No damage, but very embarrassing. This problem is probably more > acute in the -4's and -8's. So we pay more attention to CG. > > Look, I am not experience or capable enough to advise anyone how to > fly their RV. I just thought I would step in to say that an aft CG > lightens the stick feel under some circumstances (when you are already > slow and trimmed forward) and can help you learn the "Flying Farmer" > routine very quickly. :-) > > Louis > > > At 11:54 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: >> I'm far from getting into phase 1 with my RV-7, but I have a little >> insight from my day job. >> >> We approach weight and CG changes with great care and in many small >> steps. Generally, someone like Van's will put weight and CG limits on >> the airplane because outside of those limits, some limit may be >> exceeded (this could be a handling requirement if it's a certified >> airplane, etc.). >> >> From some guidance material, the effects of higher weights on the >> aircraft: >> >> Higher takeoff speed. >> Longer takeoff run. >> Reduced rate and angle of climb. >> Lower maximum altitude. >> Shorter range (more weight lifted = more work done = more fuel >> required). >> Reduced cruising speed. >> Reduced maneuverability. >> Higher stalling speed. >> Higher landing speed. >> Longer landing roll. >> Excessive weight on the nosewheel. >> >> The effects of adverse CG conditions can be: >> >> FWD CG causes problems in controlling and raising the nose >> AFT CG affects longitudinal stability, and can reduce the airplanes >> capability to recover from stalls and spins (decreased rudder and >> elevator moments due to shorter arm (distance) from CG to control >> surfaces). >> AFT CG also yields very light control forces. (This makes it easy for >> the pilot to inadvertently overstress the airplane.) >> FWD CG is also limited by elevator effectiveness at slow speeds. >> >> Anyway, the point is that by expanding the envelopes during testing, >> you can watch for these effects. If you do it slowly, you can watch >> for trends, instead of just going to the endpoint all in one go and >> getting yourself into a situation where something (like light >> longitudinal control forces) can get you into trouble if you aren't >> expecting it. >> >> Hope this helps.


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:44:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    From: Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com>
    Flight Test Engineer. Worked in Kansas and North Carolina. But, I'm a young guy and don't have as much experience as a lot of guys who are probably reading this list, so full disclosure, most of my knowledge comes from various advisory circulars and flight test guides. Being a CFI has reinforced that I need to be conservative and being in Flight Test has reinforced that I need to seek other's experiences before embarking on stuff on my own. Modern flight test is a little like being a litigation attorney. We don't ever ask a question in the courtroom (fly a test) for which we don't already know the answer (have previous experience, data, or windtunnel predictions.) Surprises during any type of flight test are a bad, bad thing. I think with aft-CG testing of RVs, going slow is good advice, but I'm actually most interested in hearing the data from others' expansions. Did they expand slow or fast, what results did they see? Your shared experience is a good one to keep in mind. -az On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Louis Willig <larywil@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Andrew, this is an excellent post. Wish you gave us your "day job" > description. It sounds interesting. > > I wasn't going to post on this question, since many members on this list > have so much more experience than I have. However, as a 12 year RV-4 > veteran, I just want to re-enforce your CG guidelines. Most of us quickly > feel the effects of extra gross weight each time we take off after > refueling, or take off or land with a passenger. What we don't "feel" as > quickly or as often is the effects of pushing close to the CG limits. We are > constantly making small adjustments in trim while always remaining withi n > the envelope. It would be a shock to most of us if we made these adjustme nts > to a plane that was loaded near the edge to start with. > > I had an "aft CG" experience many years ago with a passenger who weighed > 240#. I don't know how he even fit in the back seat, but he did. And I > didn't realize what I was doing ( yes, I was stupid). When landing, I > failed to add extra speed, and the aircraft stalled sharply, dropped a wi ng, > and raised my blood pressure. All this, in the blink of an eye, with no > telltale to a novice like me. I was only 6 inches off the ground but you > would have thought I was two feet high. No damage, but very embarrassing. > This problem is probably more acute in the -4's and -8's. So we pay more > attention to CG. > > Look, I am not experience or capable enough to advise anyone how to fly > their RV. I just thought I would step in to say that an aft CG lightens t he > stick feel under some circumstances (when you are already slow and trimme d > forward) and can help you learn the "Flying Farmer" routine very quickly. > :-) > > Louis > > > At 11:54 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: > >> I'm far from getting into phase 1 with my RV-7, but I have a little >> insight from my day job. >> >> We approach weight and CG changes with great care and in many small step s. >> Generally, someone like Van's will put weight and CG limits on the airpl ane >> because outside of those limits, some limit may be exceeded (this could be a >> handling requirement if it's a certified airplane, etc.). >> >> From some guidance material, the effects of higher weights on the >> aircraft: >> >> =B5=D9igher takeoff speed. >> =B2onger takeoff run. >> >> =AF=C3educed rate and angle of climb. >> =B2ower maximum altitude. >> >> =CAhorter range (more weight lifted = more work done = more fuel required). >> =AF=C3educed cruising speed. >> =AF=C3educed maneuverability. >> =B5=D9igher stalling speed. >> =B5=D9igher landing speed. >> =B2onger landing roll. >> >> =C0hxcessive weight on the nosewheel. >> >> The effects of adverse CG conditions can be: >> >> FWD CG causes problems in controlling and raising the nose >> AFT CG affects longitudinal stability, and can reduce the airplane=B7=F6 >> capability to recover from stalls and spins (decreased rudder and elevat or >> moments due to shorter arm (distance) from CG to control surfaces). >> >> AFT CG also yields very light control forces. (This makes it easy for th e >> pilot to inadvertently overstress the airplane.) >> FWD CG is also limited by elevator effectiveness at slow speeds. >> >> Anyway, the point is that by expanding the envelopes during testing, you >> can watch for these effects. If you do it slowly, you can watch for tren ds, >> instead of just going to the endpoint all in one go and getting yourself >> into a situation where something (like light longitudinal control forces ) >> can get you into trouble if you aren't expecting it. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> -az >> >> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen <<mailto: >> recapen@earthlink.net>recapen@earthlink.net> wrote: >> recapen@earthlink.net>recapen@earthlink.net> >> >> >> I did mine in stages. >> >> It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: thomas sargent <<mailto:sarg314@gmail.com>sarg314@gmail.com> >> >Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM >> >To: rv-list <<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>rv-list@matronics.com> >> >Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test >> > >> >I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs >> and >> >will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I >> >know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far i n >> my >> >tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. >> > >> >Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it' s >> >still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown i t >> >that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" >> or >> >72.5". >> > >> >Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it >> >reasonable to just go for it in one flight? >> > >> >-- >> >Tom Sargent >> >> >> >> >> ======================= >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Andrew Zachar >> <mailto:andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com>andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com >> >> > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:07:18 PM PST US
    From: Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net>
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    Especially one you could jettison overboard if things go South ;) On 3-23-2011 14:27, Linn Walters wrote: > > > Too bad we have to do the phase 1 testing solo. It would be nice to > take a fat friend for a ride!!!! > Linn > > --


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:28:06 PM PST US
    From: HCRV6@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: max gross weight test
    My own experience with aft CG loading was an eye opener and scary. After a long day of reassembling a friends RV-7A after painting, a friend in the ov er 200 lb class and I tossed all our tool boxes and several jugs of gallons of liquid speed polish in the back of my RV-6. I was down to less than 10 gallons of fuel and with a light Catto prop up front I have to be aware of potential for aft CG loading, but that day I was tired and not thinking. We took off for a less than 5 minute flight to a nearby airport where fuel wa s cheaper and I did not notice anything particularly different about my RV' s handling until I slowed for landing. I very quickly realized that the nor mal light stick force in pitch had become close to zero or possibly even ne gative. I added power and made a fast wheel landing, and vowed to never get beyond Van's aft CG again. I later calculated that while we were well unde r max gross, the CG was almost a inch aft of Van's specified range. In short , I highly recommend approaching aft CG loading very cautiously. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Zachar" <andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:38:15 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: max gross weight test Flight Test Engineer. Worked in Kansas and North Carolina. But, I'm a young guy and don't have as much experience as a lot of guys who are probably reading this list, so full disclosure, most of my knowledge c omes from various advisory circulars and flight test guides. Being a CFI has reinforced that I need to be conservative and being in Flig ht Test has reinforced that I need to seek other's experiences before embar king on stuff on my own. Modern flight test is a little like being a litiga tion attorney. We don't ever ask a question in the courtroom (fly a test) f or which we don't already know the answer (have previous experience, data, or windtunnel predictions.) Surprises during any type of flight test are a bad, bad thing. I think with aft-CG testing of RVs, going slow is good advice, but I'm actu ally most interested in hearing the data from others' expansions. Did they expand slow or fast, what results did they see? Your shared experience is a good one to keep in mind. -az On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Louis Willig < larywil@comcast.net > wrote : Andrew, this is an excellent post. Wish you gave us your "day job" descript ion. It sounds interesting. I wasn't going to post on this question, since many members on this list ha ve so much more experience than I have. However, as a 12 year RV-4 veteran, I just want to re-enforce your CG guidelines. Most of us quickly feel the effects of extra gross weight each time we take off after refueling, or tak e off or land with a passenger. What we don't "feel" as quickly or as often is the effects of pushing close to the CG limits. We are constantly making small adjustments in trim while always remaining within the envelope. It w ould be a shock to most of us if we made these adjustments to a plane that was loaded near the edge to start with. I had an "aft CG" experience many years ago with a passenger who weighed 24 0#. I don't know how he even fit in the back seat, but he did. And I didn't realize what I was doing ( yes, I was stupid). When landing, I failed to a dd extra speed, and the aircraft stalled sharply, dropped a wing, and raise d my blood pressure. All this, in the blink of an eye, with no telltale to a novice like me. I was only 6 inches off the ground but you would have tho ught I was two feet high. No damage, but very embarrassing. This problem is probably more acute in the -4's and -8's. So we pay more attention to CG. Look, I am not experience or capable enough to advise anyone how to fly the ir RV. I just thought I would step in to say that an aft CG lightens the st ick feel under some circumstances (when you are already slow and trimmed fo rward) and can help you learn the "Flying Farmer" routine very quickly. :-) Louis At 11:54 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: I'm far from getting into phase 1 with my RV-7, but I have a little insight from my day job. We approach weight and CG changes with great care and in many small steps. Generally, someone like Van's will put weight and CG limits on the airplane because outside of those limits, some limit may be exceeded (this could be a handling requirement if it's a certified airplane, etc.). >From some guidance material, the effects of higher weights on the aircraft : =E8=8F=B1igher takeoff speed. =E7-=A2onger takeoff run. =E7=B4=90educed rate and angle of climb. =E7-=A2ower maximum altitude. =E7=99=BEhorter range (more weight lifted = more work done = more fuel required). =E7=B4=90educed cruising speed. =E7=B4=90educed maneuverability. =E8=8F=B1igher stalling speed. =E8=8F=B1igher landing speed. =E7-=A2onger landing roll. =E9=AB=ADxcessive weight on the nosewheel. The effects of adverse CG conditions can be: FWD CG causes problems in controlling and raising the nose AFT CG affects longitudinal stability, and can reduce the airplane=E7=97=B4 capability to recover from stalls and spins (decreased rudder and elevator moments due to shorter arm (distance) from CG to control surfaces). AFT CG also yields very light control forces. (This makes it easy for the p ilot to inadvertently overstress the airplane.) FWD CG is also limited by elevator effectiveness at slow speeds. Anyway, the point is that by expanding the envelopes during testing, you ca n watch for these effects. If you do it slowly, you can watch for trends, i nstead of just going to the endpoint all in one go and getting yourself int o a situation where something (like light longitudinal control forces) can get you into trouble if you aren't expecting it. Hope this helps. -az On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen <<mailto: recapen@earthlin k.net > recapen@earthlink.net > wrote: .net > recapen@earthlink.net > I did mine in stages. It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... -----Original Message----- >From: thomas sargent <<mailto: sarg314@gmail.com > sarg314@gmail.com > >Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM >To: rv-list <<mailto: rv-list@matronics.com > rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test > >I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs and >will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I >know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in my >tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. > >Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's >still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it >that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or >72.5". > >Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it >reasonable to just go for it in one flight? > >-- >Tom Sargent ======================== get="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List =========== http://forums.matronics.com =========== le, List Admin. ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== -- Andrew Zachar <mailto: andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com > andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com =========== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List =========== MS - k">http://forums.matronics.com =========== e - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com ==


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:03:03 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Re: RV-8 Insurance...
    Just to follow up on the insurance information I posted, I got an email from EAA/Falcon this morning indicating that they had quoted this year's policy based on last year's flight time numbers (basically 0). They re-quoted on my current hours (153 TTSN) and their quote came more into line at $2490.00. I just wanted to set the record straight. Also, the AOPA coverage for $2475 is really with USAIG (United States Aviation Insurance Group), which is not the bailout "AIG" (American International Group). At least I don't think so. Here are their respective web sites: United Status Aviation Insurance Group http://www.usau.com/usau.nsf/doc/index American International Group http://www.aigcorporate.com/index.html FYI - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... > >Here's this year's Insurance Quotes along with the coverage details on my RV-8. Can you guess which one I went with? > >$1m/$100k Liability >$5000-$10000 Medical >$0 Deductible >$150k Hull Ground/Air > >153 Hours, Aircraft >153 Hours in Type, Pilot >450 Hours Total, Pilot >242 Hours TW, Pilot > > Avemco: $5811 > EAA/Falcon: $2975 ($3075 last year + Test & 1st 10 hours) > NationAir/Chartis $2888 > AOPA/AIG $2475


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:39:46 PM PST US
    From: HCRV6@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: RV-8 Insurance...
    Matt, Just to put your mind at ease I was informed by Nationair a year ago that the AIG that carried my insurance was a completely separate group from the AIG that received the bailout. I assume that was the truth but who knows? Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 805 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:59:20 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-8 Insurance... Just to follow up on the insurance information I posted, I got an email from EAA/Falcon this morning indicating that they had quoted this year's policy based on last year's flight time numbers (basically 0). They re-quoted on my current hours (153 TTSN) and their quote came more into line at $2490.00. I just wanted to set the record straight. Also, the AOPA coverage for $2475 is really with USAIG (United States Aviation Insurance Group), which is not the bailout "AIG" (American International Group). At least I don't think so. Here are their respective web sites: United Status Aviation Insurance Group http://www.usau.com/usau.nsf/doc/index American International Group http://www.aigcorporate.com/index.html FYI - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... > >Here's this year's Insurance Quotes along with the coverage details on my RV-8. Can you guess which one I went with? > >$1m/$100k Liability >$5000-$10000 Medical >$0 Deductible >$150k Hull Ground/Air > >153 Hours, Aircraft >153 Hours in Type, Pilot >450 Hours Total, Pilot >242 Hours TW, Pilot > > Avemco: $5811 > EAA/Falcon: $2975 ($3075 last year + Test & 1st 10 hours) > NationAir/Chartis $2888 > AOPA/AIG $2475


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:54:52 PM PST US
    From: vanremog <vanremog@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: RV-8 Insurance...
    The linked article would seem to support this viewpoint as factual. http://www.gwbaa.com/news060615.pdf -GV In a message dated 03/23/11 20:03:48 Pacific Daylight Time, dralle@matronics.com writes: Just to follow up on the insurance information I posted, I got an email from EAA/Falcon this morning indicating that they had quoted this year's policy based on last year's flight time numbers (basically 0). They re-quoted on my current hours (153 TTSN) and their quote came more into line at $2490.00. I just wanted to set the record straight. Also, the AOPA coverage for $2475 is really with USAIG (United States Aviation Insurance Group), which is not the bailout "AIG" (American International Group). At least I don't think so. Here are their respective web sites: United Status Aviation Insurance Group http://www.usau.com/usau.nsf/doc/index American International Group http://www.aigcorporate.com/index.html FYI - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint Job Is All That's Left To Do... > >Here's this year's Insurance Quotes along with the coverage details on my RV-8. Can you guess which one I went with? > >$1m/$100k Liability >$5000-$10000 Medical >$0 Deductible >$150k Hull Ground/Air > >153 Hours, Aircraft >153 Hours in Type, Pilot >450 Hours Total, Pilot >242 Hours TW, Pilot > > Avemco: $5811 > EAA/Falcon: $2975 ($3075 last year + Test & 1st 10 hours) > NationAir/Chartis $2888 > AOPA/AIG $2475


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:56:59 PM PST US
    From: N81JG@aol.com
    Subject: RV6 fuel tank sealant
    New subject--- Does anyone have experience with the sloshing agent used to seal the fuel tanks prior to about 1994? I have heard of the agent sloughing off and blocking fuel pickup. Is this a sudden occurrence without any warning? Sho uld all the sloshed tanks be replaced with Prosealed tanks? This is not a prob lem with my RV7A, but the tanks in a friend's RV6A. John Greaves RV7A N781JG Redding, CA In a message dated 3/23/2011 2:44:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com writes: Flight Test Engineer. Worked in Kansas and North Carolina. But, I'm a young guy and don't have as much experience as a lot of guys who are probably reading this list, so full disclosure, most of my knowledg e comes from various advisory circulars and flight test guides. Being a CFI has reinforced that I need to be conservative and being in Flight Test has reinforced that I need to seek other's experiences before embarking on stuff on my own. Modern flight test is a little like being a litigation attorney. We don't ever ask a question in the courtroom (fly a test) for which we don't already know the answer (have previous experience, data , or windtunnel predictions.) Surprises during any type of flight test are a bad, bad thing. I think with aft-CG testing of RVs, going slow is good advice, but I'm actually most interested in hearing the data from others' expansions. Did t hey expand slow or fast, what results did they see? Your shared experience is a good one to keep in mind. -az On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Louis Willig <_larywil@comcast.net_ (mailto:larywil@comcast.net) > wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Louis Willig <_larywil@comcast.net_ (mailto:larywil@comcast.net) > Andrew, this is an excellent post. Wish you gave us your "day job" description. It sounds interesting. I wasn't going to post on this question, since many members on this list have so much more experience than I have. However, as a 12 year RV-4 veteran, I just want to re-enforce your CG guidelines. Most of us quickly feel the effects of extra gross weight each time we take off after refueling, or take off or land with a passenger. What we don't "feel" as quickly or as often is the effects of pushing close to the CG limits. We are constantly making small adjustments in trim while always remaining within the envelo pe. It would be a shock to most of us if we made these adjustments to a plane that was loaded near the edge to start with. I had an "aft CG" experience many years ago with a passenger who weighed 240#. I don't know how he even fit in the back seat, but he did. And I didn't realize what I was doing ( yes, I was stupid). When landing, I fa iled to add extra speed, and the aircraft stalled sharply, dropped a wing, and raised my blood pressure. All this, in the blink of an eye, with no tellta le to a novice like me. I was only 6 inches off the ground but you would hav e thought I was two feet high. No damage, but very embarrassing. This problem is probably more acute in the -4's and -8's. So we pay more attent ion to CG. Look, I am not experience or capable enough to advise anyone how to fly their RV. I just thought I would step in to say that an aft CG lightens th e stick feel under some circumstances (when you are already slow and trimmed forward) and can help you learn the "Flying Farmer" routine very quickly. :-) Louis At 11:54 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: I'm far from getting into phase 1 with my RV-7, but I have a little insight from my day job. We approach weight and CG changes with great care and in many small steps. Generally, someone like Van's will put weight and CG limits on the airplane because outside of those limits, some limit may be exceeded (this could be a handling requirement if it's a certified airplane, etc.). >From some guidance material, the effects of higher weights on the aircraft: =E8=8F=B1igher takeoff speed. =E7-=A2onger takeoff run. =E7=B4=90educed rate and angle of climb. =E7-=A2ower maximum altitude. =E7=99=BEhorter range (more weight lifted = more work done = more fuel required). =E7=B4=90educed cruising speed. =E7=B4=90educed maneuverability. =E8=8F=B1igher stalling speed. =E8=8F=B1igher landing speed. =E7-=A2onger landing roll. =E9=AB=ADxcessive weight on the nosewheel. The effects of adverse CG conditions can be: FWD CG causes problems in controlling and raising the nose AFT CG affects longitudinal stability, and can reduce the airplane=E7=97 =B4 capability to recover from stalls and spins (decreased rudder and elevator moments due to shorter arm (distance) from CG to control surfaces). AFT CG also yields very light control forces. (This makes it easy for the pilot to inadvertently overstress the airplane.) FWD CG is also limited by elevator effectiveness at slow speeds. Anyway, the point is that by expanding the envelopes during testing, you can watch for these effects. If you do it slowly, you can watch for trends , instead of just going to the endpoint all in one go and getting yourself into a situation where something (like light longitudinal control forces) can get you into trouble if you aren't expecting it. Hope this helps. -az On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen <<mailto:_recapen@earthlink.net_ (mailto:recapen@earthlink.net) >_recapen@e arthlink.net_ (mailto:recapen@earthlink.net) > wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <<mailto:_recapen@earthlink.net_ (mailto:recapen@earthlink.net) >_recapen@e arthlink.net_ (mailto:recapen@earthlink.net) > I did mine in stages. It was pretty weird strapping in a bag of sand...... -----Original Message----- >From: thomas sargent <<mailto:_sarg314@gmail.com_ (mailto:sarg314@gmail.com) >_sarg314@gmail.com_ (mailto:sarg314@gmail.com) > >Sent: Mar 22, 2011 4:06 PM >To: rv-list <<mailto:_rv-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:rv-list@matronics.com) >_rv-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:rv-list@mat ronics.com) > >Subject: RV-List: max gross weight test > >I am just about done testing my 6A. I specified a max gross at 1720lbs an d >will fly it at that weight in a couple days. (Empty weight was 1076.) I >know some planes have significantly higher max gross weights. So far in my >tests (all solo), weight doesn't seem to change behavior very much. > >Fully loaded the CG will be at 74.6" (in the 68.7 - 76.8 range), so it's >still more than 2" forward of the aft limit, although I haven't flown it >that far aft before. I think I've had it no further aft than about 72" or >72.5". > >Should I approach the max gross configuration in a few steps or is it >reasonable to just go for it in one flight? > >-- >Tom Sargent ======================= get="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) le, List Admin. ="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) -- Andrew Zachar <mailto:_andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com_ (mailto:andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com) >_andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com_ (mailto:andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com) target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List MS - k">http://forums.matronics.com e - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Andrew Zachar _andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com_ (mailto:andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:07:47 PM PST US
    From: vanremog <vanremog@aol.com>
    Subject: links to common aviation insurers
    http://www.insurancestates.com/aviation.html -GV




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