---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/31/11: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:42 AM - Re: vans airforce (MacDonald Doug) 2. 04:56 AM - Re: vans airforce (John Trollinger) 3. 05:29 AM - Re: vans airforce (Panama Red) 4. 06:57 AM - Re: vans airforce (Billy & Tami Britton) 5. 07:18 AM - Re: vans airforce (David) 6. 07:37 AM - Re: vans airforce (Valovich, Paul) 7. 10:06 AM - Heavy Right Wing... (Matt Dralle) 8. 10:18 AM - Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Matt Dralle) 9. 10:49 AM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (Ralph E. Capen) 10. 11:08 AM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Ralph E. Capen) 11. 11:58 AM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Steve Senegal) 12. 12:00 PM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Bruce) 13. 12:03 PM - Re: RV10-List: This could be bad....(storms in S-N-F) (Robin Marks) 14. 12:04 PM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (Mark Burns) 15. 12:14 PM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (MLWynn@aol.com) 16. 12:52 PM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Ralph E. Capen) 17. 01:05 PM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (Denis Walsh) 18. 03:15 PM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (Kelly McMullen) 19. 03:28 PM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Kelly McMullen) 20. 04:43 PM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Kevin Horton) 21. 05:18 PM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (Kevin Horton) 22. 05:26 PM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Doug Gray) 23. 08:53 PM - Re: Heavy Right Wing... (Matt Dralle) 24. 09:01 PM - Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:46 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce I don't know, my experience has been the opposite. The one time I posted a newbie question here I was clearly told not to bother the group. My questions have been promptly answered on VAF. It might be the list where your messages were posted. The guys on the RV-4 list seem pretty decent. Doug M RV-4 emp NW Ontario, Canada Do Not Archive > On 3/30/2011 7:39 PM, Vern wrote: > > > > How you ever noticed how clicky some the people are on > vaf. If you post something it just might get deleted. if > your not one of the gang. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce From: John Trollinger I am sorry to hear you have had problems on VAF, but I have always gotten and answer to my questions there, where every time I ask something on Matronics it is crickets.. so maybe you all have a click here too? On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ralph&Maria Finch wrote: > > Proudly "Banned For Life" on VAF. Guess I wasn't part of the > moderators clique either. > RF > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Vern wrote: >> >> How you ever noticed how clicky some the people are on vaf. If you post something it just might get deleted. if your not one of the gang. >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:04 AM PST US From: "Panama Red" Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce I never was banned, I just wasn't allowed to join. Bob RV6 >> Proudly "Banned For Life" on VAF. Guess I wasn't part of the > moderators clique either. > RF > >> >> How you ever noticed how clicky some the people are on vaf. If you post >> something it just might get deleted. if your not one of the gang. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:27 AM PST US From: "Billy & Tami Britton" Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce I am not going to complain about either list. Yes, to me it does seem like each has their own little "in" group. However, I've never had a bad experience with either. I do have to say that it seems to me that the Matronics group is more "that question has been answered a hundred times--search the forums or these websites for the answer." I've always had my question answered directly on VAF and, no, I'm not one of the "in" crowd on either group. Bottom line is that without these groups I would not enjoy the build nearly as much. It's not just the knowledge that's valuable, but the people/friendships made while making the journey. Besides, one can always call Vans directly and talk to them about our questions. I would much rather post on either site listed in this e-mail and risk no answer at all vs. phoning Vans directly and having to talk with a particular "engineer" who is everybody's favorite. So, I suggest that whether you feel you fit in or not, lets not self-destruct these lists or web-sites. If you feel you fit into one or the other better, then stick with them. Meanwhile, I've always monitored both on a daily basis (sometimes 2 or 3 times) and will continue to do so. Bill Still working on RV-10 Wings (tanks sealed finally) -------------------------------------------------- From: "MacDonald Doug" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 5:48 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce > > I don't know, my experience has been the opposite. The one time I posted > a newbie question here I was clearly told not to bother the group. > > My questions have been promptly answered on VAF. It might be the list > where your messages were posted. The guys on the RV-4 list seem pretty > decent. > > Doug M > RV-4 emp > NW Ontario, Canada > > Do Not Archive > >> On 3/30/2011 7:39 PM, Vern wrote: >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Vern" >> > >> > How you ever noticed how clicky some the people are on >> vaf. If you post something it just might get deleted. if >> your not one of the gang. >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:54 AM PST US From: David Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce I've had my wrist slapped on VAF, but I enjoy the forum, so I continue to participate. Doug's rules about what will be deleted are crystal clear, but I think sometimes the moderators are kind of like inspectors at different FSDO's. ^_^ David Maib RV-10 Transition Trainer On Mar 30, 2011, at 8:39 PM, Vern wrote: > > How you ever noticed how clicky some the people are on vaf. If you > post something it just might get deleted. if your not one of the gang. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335533#335533 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:52 AM PST US From: "Valovich, Paul" Subject: Re: RV-List: vans airforce No - I have never noticed that. Do you have examples? I've never had anythi ng deleted - and usually get rapid, knowledgeable answers. If it bothers you enough to post on this forum, why in the hell do you even open the VAF link? Seems like your only interested in igniting a pro/con V AF debate. Why? Paul Valovich N192NM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:32 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... Dear Listers, Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? Thanks! Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:34 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... Dear Listers, With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH that much, but starts dropping the speed. In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about 28-29. Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as described above? Thanks, - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:11 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... Before you squeeze either, take your airfoil template and make sure the leading edge of the aileron isn't sticking up in to the airstream. Mine was by just a little bit. I reset the aileron and haven't found the need to squeeze.... -----Original Message----- >From: Matt Dralle >Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:10 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... > > > >Dear Listers, > >Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? > >Thanks! > >Matt > >- >Matt Dralle >RV-8 #82880 N998RV >http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:54 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... Matt, I don't have an IO390 but the manual for my IO360B shows that combination as outside of the suggested area of continuous operation - yes it was a quick look and I didn't purely run the numbers. I would guess that combination might be detonation-prone. YMMV - see if you can get the appropriate chart for the IO390. They are a bugger to figure out too - but there are some guidelines. Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Matt Dralle >Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:21 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... > > >Dear Listers, > >With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. > >Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH that much, but starts dropping the speed. > >In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about 28-29. > >Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as described above? > >Thanks, > >- >Matt Dralle >RV-8 #82880 N998RV >http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:05 AM PST US From: Steve Senegal Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... Matt, I'm curious as to what model 72" Hartzell prop you're running? Steve (650) 346 6967 Sent from my iPhone On Mar 31, 2011, at 6:21 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > Dear Listers, > > With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. > > Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH that much, but starts dropping the speed. > > In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about 28-29. > > Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as described above? > > Thanks, > > - > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:35 PM PST US From: "Bruce" Subject: RE: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... Ralph, I looked at your attached chart and didn't see any warning about operation limits. These type charts are just used to predict what various RPM/MP/Altitude combinations will result in a given airspeed. As long as he stays in his engine/prop allowed range it's fine. Those numbers can be found on the props TC certificate or by a call to the props manufacturer. Low RPM, high MP has been used for years, every turbo-charged engine does it. Bruce WWW.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:07 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... Matt, I don't have an IO390 but the manual for my IO360B shows that combination as outside of the suggested area of continuous operation - yes it was a quick look and I didn't purely run the numbers. I would guess that combination might be detonation-prone. YMMV - see if you can get the appropriate chart for the IO390. They are a bugger to figure out too - but there are some guidelines. Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Matt Dralle >Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:21 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... > > >Dear Listers, > >With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. > >Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH that much, but starts dropping the speed. > >In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about 28-29. > >Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as described above? > >Thanks, > >- >Matt Dralle >RV-8 #82880 N998RV >http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:13 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RV-List: RE: RV10-List: This could be bad....(storms in S-N-F) Re: RV10-List: This could be bad....(storms in S-N-F) MARCH 31, 2011 *Strong Storms Batter Sun 'n Fun* ** [image: SNF damage] *Damage to total hundreds of millions of dollars.* *(Photo: Pia Bergqvist)* The scene at Sun 'n Fun at Lakeland Linder Regional Airport turned to chaos on Thursday as strong storms hammered the show site, flipping airplanes, knocking out power to the exhibit halls and collapsing a building, trapping dozens of people inside. The National Weather Service reported confirmed tornadoes in the area, and said more than 70 people were trapped inside the collapsed building at the Sun 'n Fun show site. Even though the first couple of days of the show were largely storm free, the week continued to be defined by heavy rain that soaked the grounds the day before the festivities started and kept thousands of airplanes from arriving in Lakeland. Despite the slow start to the week, some vendors reported doing good business even with the smaller crowds. Launch events by Aspen, Piper, Garmin and Cessna generated a good deal of buzz at the show, and as the week progressed and the scattered areas of decent weather surfaced, the mood of show goers seemed decidedly upbeat. But on Thursday morning show goers awoke to heavy rains and threatening skies before a massive storm cell swept through the area late in the morning. A tornado warning for the area remained in effect on Thursday afternoon. *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dj Merrill *Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2011 11:06 AM *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: This could be bad....(storms in S-N-F) --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill On 03/31/2011 01:11 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > If you hear anything with good links, I'd love to hear > that nothing happened to all the airplanes.... There is more news on the Sun n Fun Facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/SunNFunFlyIn -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:41 PM PST US From: "Mark Burns" Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... I did the same thing as Ralph. It worked. Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Thu, Mar 31, 2011 16:48:32 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... Before you squeeze either, take your airfoil template and make sure the leading edge of the aileron isn't sticking up in to the airstream. Mine was by just a little bit. I reset the aileron and haven't found the need to squeeze.... -----Original Message----- >From: Matt Dralle >Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:10 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... > > > >Dear Listers, > >Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? > >Thanks! > >Matt > >- >Matt Dralle >RV-8 #82880 N998RV >http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:15 PM PST US From: MLWynn@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... Hey Matt, When I sent in my pledge, I got a great book called something like Airplane Rigging. It was an excellent read and a reference I plan to return to when I actually get my bird airborn. I am certainly no expert in this, but reviewing that book might give you some really good ideas. I wonder what is happening to your slip indicator as the airspeed goes up. Is the airplane going straight? If the issue is in yaw and is getting compensated by roll, then the aileron is probably not the place to start. If the issue is the prop wash affecting the wing ( I can't remember from the book which roll this affects) then I think they said something about changing the angle the engine sits (washer under the motor mount). I am probably just broadcasting my ignorance here, but I thought I would mention what a great book it was and how much it helped my understanding of the complexities of the rigging process. Good luck and let us know how this comes out. Regards, Michael Wynn RV 8 Wiring San Ramon, CA In a message dated 3/31/2011 10:11:52 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dralle@matronics.com writes: --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? Thanks! Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:04 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... There's a place just to the left of the dividing line towards the bottom that says "LIMITING MAN. PRESS FOR CONTINUOUS OPERATION". It points to both the left and right portions of the chart. That is what I was referring to - and that is what I try to go by. I would think it is even more critical if you're turbocharged. Or am I really misinterpreting the charts.....maybe Bart (Lalonde) or Rhonda (Barrett) or Mahlon (Russell) will chime in here and keep us honest. I'll take an education.... -----Original Message----- >From: Bruce >Sent: Mar 31, 2011 2:54 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... > > >Ralph, > >I looked at your attached chart and didn't see any warning about >operation limits. These type charts are just used to predict what >various RPM/MP/Altitude combinations will result in a given airspeed. As >long as he stays in his engine/prop allowed range it's fine. Those >numbers can be found on the props TC certificate or by a call to the >props manufacturer. Low RPM, high MP has been used for years, every >turbo-charged engine does it. > >Bruce >WWW.Glasair.org > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen >Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:07 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... > >Matt, > >I don't have an IO390 but the manual for my IO360B shows that >combination as outside of the suggested area of continuous operation - >yes it was a quick look and I didn't purely run the numbers. > >I would guess that combination might be detonation-prone. > >YMMV - see if you can get the appropriate chart for the IO390. They are >a bugger to figure out too - but there are some guidelines. > >Ralph > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Matt Dralle >>Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:21 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, >rv7-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... >> >> >>Dear Listers, >> >>With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 >RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. >These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower >GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. >> >>Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH >that much, but starts dropping the speed. >> >>In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest >cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about >28-29. >> >>Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as >described above? >> >>Thanks, >> >>- >>Matt Dralle >>RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >>http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >>Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:52 PM PST US From: Denis Walsh Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... Matt there are lots of good pieces of advice available, and most of what I've seen are worthwhile. I just want to add: If you do get around to squeezing a trailing edge, your technique is backwards. The wing whose aileron you squeeze will become heavier. Check everything else first. DW On Mar 31, 2011, at 10:10 , Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and > I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before > then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the > list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. > The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out > of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or > so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I > wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron > will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize > the issue? > > Thanks! > > Matt > > - > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:42 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... Seems to be very common on 7's and 8's for the rt aileron outer hinge to be high, allowing outer leading edge to stick up, while inner hinge is perfect. On 3/31/2011 9:48 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > Before you squeeze either, take your airfoil template and make sure the leading edge of the aileron isn't sticking up in to the airstream. Mine was by just a little bit. I reset the aileron and haven't found the need to squeeze.... > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Matt Dralle >> Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:10 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle >> >> >> Dear Listers, >> >> Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Matt >> >> - >> Matt Dralle >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:12 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... There is a difference between the early IO-360s that did not have dynamic counterweights on the crank and the later versions used in the Cardinal RG and Mooney 201 that have the dynamic counterweights. I am pretty sure the IO-390 does have the dynamic counterweights. Point being that the solid crank models have harmonic ranges between the Hartzell prop and the engine that restrict operations, usually in the 2100-2350 range. The later models do not have those restrictions but do have cautions against low MP and low rpm. So it is the prop and crank combination that matters. On 3/31/2011 12:46 PM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > > There's a place just to the left of the dividing line towards the bottom that says "LIMITING MAN. PRESS FOR CONTINUOUS OPERATION". It points to both the left and right portions of the chart. > > That is what I was referring to - and that is what I try to go by. I would think it is even more critical if you're turbocharged. > > Or am I really misinterpreting the charts.....maybe Bart (Lalonde) or Rhonda (Barrett) or Mahlon (Russell) will chime in here and keep us honest. > > > I'll take an education.... > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce >> Sent: Mar 31, 2011 2:54 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce" >> >> Ralph, >> >> I looked at your attached chart and didn't see any warning about >> operation limits. These type charts are just used to predict what >> various RPM/MP/Altitude combinations will result in a given airspeed. As >> long as he stays in his engine/prop allowed range it's fine. Those >> numbers can be found on the props TC certificate or by a call to the >> props manufacturer. Low RPM, high MP has been used for years, every >> turbo-charged engine does it. >> >> Bruce >> WWW.Glasair.org >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:07 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... >> >> Matt, >> >> I don't have an IO390 but the manual for my IO360B shows that >> combination as outside of the suggested area of continuous operation - >> yes it was a quick look and I didn't purely run the numbers. >> >> I would guess that combination might be detonation-prone. >> >> YMMV - see if you can get the appropriate chart for the IO390. They are >> a bugger to figure out too - but there are some guidelines. >> >> Ralph >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Matt Dralle >>> Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:21 PM >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, >> rv7-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... >>> >>> --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle >>> >>> Dear Listers, >>> >>> With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 >> RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. >> These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower >> GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. >>> Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH >> that much, but starts dropping the speed. >>> In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest >> cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about >> 28-29. >>> Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as >> described above? >>> Thanks, >>> >>> - >>> Matt Dralle >>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >>> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >>> Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... From: Kevin Horton That RPM/MP combo might very well be detonation prone at 50 to 100 deg ROP. But, I'm guessing (big emphasis on the word guessing) that it should be fine as long as you are well LOP, and all CHTs are not too hot. I'm no engine expert, so this advice is worth what you paid for it. Kevin Horton On 2011-03-31, at 13:07 , Ralph E. Capen wrote: > Matt, > > I don't have an IO390 but the manual for my IO360B shows that combination as outside of the suggested area of continuous operation - yes it was a quick look and I didn't purely run the numbers. > > I would guess that combination might be detonation-prone. > > YMMV - see if you can get the appropriate chart for the IO390. They are a bugger to figure out too - but there are some guidelines. > > Ralph > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Matt Dralle >> Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:21 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... >> >> >> Dear Listers, >> >> With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. >> >> Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH that much, but starts dropping the speed. >> >> In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about 28-29. >> >> Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as described above? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - >> Matt Dralle >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log >> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Heavy Right Wing... From: Kevin Horton On 2011-03-31, at 12:10 , Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? Matt, Given that the out of trim changes so much with speed, I doubt a simple squeeze of an aileron trailing edge is the answer. You'd end up with a heavy left wing at slow speed, and a heavy right wing at high speed. Study the info that Van's has published on this before you do any squeezing. http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Wing_Heavy.pdf I'm guessing you've either got a misrigged flap, or an aileron hinge that needs to be moved vertically. If you do squeeze an aileron, you squeeze the one on the light wing, i.e. you'd squeeze the left one. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... From: Doug Gray On Thu, 2011-03-31 at 09:21 -0700, Matt Dralle wrote: > a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP The Lycoming engine plots say to me that operation at full power, full throttle, full rich (but with zero RAM air boosting) down to 2400 RPM is OK. But the limit line is clearly saying that if the RPM is set below 2400 RPM the maximum power has to be dialed back. This is not unreasonable since the engines are rated at max RPM. Power is the product of RPM and Torque. To retain the same HP at reduced RPM requires increasing the Torque output - increasing the peak forces withing the engine. Both the max RPM and max Torque define the operating limits of the engine from a mechanical point of view. (You need to hit the cylinders harder to get the same HP at lower RPM) The max RPM and the lines marked 'Limiting man pressure for continuous operation.' is how these limits are conveyed to the operator. What the limiting factor for the torque is really not generally known - perhaps detonation is a factor - peak cylinder pressures or perhaps it is something else. Talk to the design authority for this engine - if you can find one. For the few Lycoming engines I have looked at the max power is limited to somewhere between 65 and70% at 2150 RPM. My question is for the propeller manufacturers, when they test for suitability on the respective engines do they take this secondary limitation into consideration? If you are operating your engine outside this range you may also be operating the propeller outside its tested and approved range as well. (Bigger hitting cylinders will augment their tendency to resonance.) Just my thoughts on the matter - worth just exactly what you paid. Doug ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:02 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Re: Heavy Right Wing... Thanks to everyone for the great feedback on this issue!! I went out after work tonight and had a look at the aileron alignment and sure enough, the outboard edge of the right aileron was high by about 1/16-3/32 of an inch. I took the hinge off the aileron and elongated the holes slightly and reassembled, dropping the outboard side by about 1/16". I went out and took it up to about 220mph and now - are you ready for this - it requires full RIGHT trim! Completely the opposite from before. So, obviously I need to reduce the drop by 50% and I should be dead-on neutral trim! Its amazing to me how such a little movement had such a HUGE impact on the trim. No, aileron edge smooshing necessary, by the way! Whew! Best, - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... At 09:10 AM 3/31/2011 Thursday, Matt Dralle wrote: > > >Dear Listers, > >Well, taking the RV-8 in for paint is getting closer and closer and I'm trying to get all the little things that need doing done before then. Dealing with the heavy right wing is the next thing on the list. Currently, at low speed I have about neutral aileron trim. The faster I go, the more LEFT trim I need. Above 200mph, I run out of left trim and the left aileron is noticeably "up", maybe .125" or so. Both of my ailerons are "chubby" at the trailing edge. I wanted to confirm with the List that "squeezing" the RIGHT aileron will add a bit of lift on the RIGHT side and hopefully neutralize the issue? > >Thanks! > >Matt ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:23 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Re: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... Hum, interesting. In that graph, albeit for the IO-360, the "Limiting MP For Continuous Ops" at 26 MP is 2100 RPM. 27 MP is 2200. Assuming the IO-390 is similar, 2150 at 26.5 ought to be good to go. BTW, I flew tonight and at 26/2150 I was seeing about 10.2-10.5 GPH @ 2500ft. Better than I recalled. Where can I get a sweet chart like that for my IO-390? I looked quickly though the manuals that came with the engine, and I didn't see one. Thanks for the feedback everyone! - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 160+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left... At 10:07 AM 3/31/2011 Thursday, you wrote: >Matt, > >I don't have an IO390 but the manual for my IO360B shows that combination as outside of the suggested area of continuous operation - yes it was a quick look and I didn't purely run the numbers. > >I would guess that combination might be detonation-prone. > >YMMV - see if you can get the appropriate chart for the IO390. They are a bugger to figure out too - but there are some guidelines. > >Ralph > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Matt Dralle >>Sent: Mar 31, 2011 12:21 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RV-List: Low RPM/High MP vs. High RPM/Low MP... >> >> >>Dear Listers, >> >>With the IO-390 and Hartzell 72" CS on my RV-8, a combination of 2150 RPM and 25-26 MP gives me nice 200MPH True and about 10.5-10.8 GPH. These number are down low, maybe 3000ft. Higher altitude gives lower GPHs. At 2150, the cockpit is pretty quiet too. >> >>Increasing the RPM and Decreasing the MP doesn't really change the GPH that much, but starts dropping the speed. >> >>In all configurations, I'm running LOP at about 1360 on the hottest cylinder. Oil temps are about 178 F. Max MP at low altitude is about 28-29. >> >>Are there any issues running in a low-RPM, high-MP configuration as described above? >> >>Thanks, >> >>- >>Matt Dralle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.