Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:00 AM - Need Instructor/Aircraft (John DeCuir)
2. 08:19 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Bill Judge)
3. 08:44 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Bubblehead)
4. 10:14 AM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (Matt Tucciarone)
5. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (Kelly McMullen)
6. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (Scott)
7. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (Scott)
8. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (Matt Tucciarone)
9. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (Kevin Horton)
10. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Landing RV-8 (bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net)
11. 08:16 PM - Wings and Wheels Fly-In/Cruise-In (Steve Eberhart)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Need Instructor/Aircraft |
Fellow listers, I'm in need of an Instructor with a Dual control RV to familiarize
a fellow pilot with RV's. He will be flying my RV4 occasionally after he's
insured and qualified. He has tons of hours ( Air Force with DC-3 gunship tour
in Viet Nam, retired Airline pilot) but will need an RV endorsement in the logbook
to satisfy the insurance people. We're in Salinas, CA, but he would be
willing to meet anywhere within about 100 miles of there.
John DeCuir
N204CP, RV4
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
Matt,
The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4, -6 and -7 so what
works well in those planes doesn't necessarily apply in a -8. The 8 has
spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all
have Whitman style tapered rods.
In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out that the
tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the wheels when
they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying interesting and less so
when you go slower. So lots of them prefer a min speed 3 pt to minimize
capital losses and hurt pride.
If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the angle
of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It seems like
everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you basically have to
fly the right attitude on to the pavement and continue to fly that attitude
during the roll as opposed to the C-170 and Citibria where you can get down
to a foot off the ground and totally get away with gradually putting the
stick in your gut and not bouncing at all.
You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think this
"belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the other
alternative of doing a wheelie.
So, unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies, touching
down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down pat(on pavement)
you can have a butter smooth landing every single time which, to me, is less
wear and tear than the regular crow hopping and tail first alternatives.
Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail first
becomes very easy when you need it.
I personally like wheelies because you get to pick more accurately where the
wheels will first touch as opposed to the "wait for it" full stall landing.
The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake
aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with the
elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator authority,
put the tail down, stick in your gut, and start breaking again. This is an
advanced technique that is right out of stick and rudder, nobody teaches it
anymore but it can be done and end up with very short landing rolls while
still doing a wheelie. The advantage here is that you get more control over
where you touch down by virtue of doing a wheelie and then if you need to
you can brake aggressively and end up with landing roll that is very similar
to a 3 pt min speed roll.
Bill
N84WJ, RV-8, 665 hrs, KSEE based
rv-8.blogspot.com
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM, RV-List Digest Server <
rv-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RV-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8 (Matt Tucciarone)
> 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Larry Bowen)
> 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (David Burton)
> 4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Paul Rice)
> 5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Michael Kraus)
> 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (HCRV6@comcast.net)
> 7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator (Denis Walsh)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US
> From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
> wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> From: Larry Bowen <larry@bowenaero.com>
>
> Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.
> On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn
> how
> > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
> wheel
> > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
> instructor
> > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
> > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a
> little
> > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US
> From: "David Burton" <d-burton@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel airplane since
> 100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the
> designer of the RV8, Van himself:
>
> "I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently
> land safely without a mastery of low speed control.
> While this point may be argued, the traditional landing
> objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum
> air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of
> Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for
> wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict
> my above statement of the "accepted" preferred
> landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook
> dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher
> touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation
> could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing
> because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that
> they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."
>
> He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and comments
> about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the factory,
> with no incidents. His point is that pilots tend to land too fast for the
> conditions. I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A while he
> was landing once. Amazing.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US
> From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hey Matt=2C I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50 guy. Man
> y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3 pointer beca
> use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree with that.
> I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer. And yes=2C
> you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a passenge
> r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet up. If I
> have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is easy to g
> rease on in that position. Visability over the nose should not be a factor
> in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat of cours
> e=2C and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have any prob
> lem in any tailwheel airplane. PaulRV8Flying Siren
> > From: m.tucciarone@hotmail.com
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> > Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400
> >
> m>
> >
> > Hi everyone=2C
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn ho
> w
> > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wh
> eel
> > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instruct
> or
> > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
>
> > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a littl
> e
> > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
>
> > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks=2C
> > Matt
> >
> >
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> From: Michael Kraus <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
>
>
> I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point landings. I am
> on
> a 2155' grass strip. The only time I did wheel landings was when I was
> carrying
> too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less flaps
> and
> carried more speed.
>
> I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on final, and
> bleed
> down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn
> how to
> land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
> landings
> (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be
> doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II
> seaplane
> and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try
> a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a
> lot
> less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel
> at
> my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> approach
> speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US
> From: HCRV6@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
> Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have who
> prefers wheel
> landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6 and 99% of
> my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I did not
> install
> the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a decent wheel
> landing without at least one hop.
>
> RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:18:27 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
> wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:14:13 PM PST US
> Subject: RV-List: Stall warning vane tone generator
> From: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
>
>
> > Listers:
> I have lost the second sheet of instructions that go with the stall
> warning kit for the RV 7 etc.
>
> If someone has it I need to know the wiring slots call out for the tone
> generator board. There are four slots. Surely they are power in; vane
> wire in; ground; and signal out. I just don't know which is which..
>
> If someone knows please give me the order from left to right, with the
> slots on the bottom.\
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Denis
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
I have about 400 hours on my RV-8 and when I first flew it, wheel landings were
a lot easier and more consistent. It just seemed to squeak on with the tail
slightly low and just above a stall, especially when flying solo. After about
50 landings or so I started working on 3-point landings. It just gives a little
different look over the nose and I was initially a little high on full flare
and would bounce a little.
Now I use either one depending on conditions. Cross wind and gusty I like wheel
landings and other times full stall.
When a passenger is in the back the 3-point landing is a little touchy. It seems
to stall quicker and with less warning but still very controllable throughout
the landing.
In summary, both are very doable, and I think you should learn and practice both
with the CG in many locations. It never hurts to have more options to chose
from.
--------
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354813#354813
Message 4
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|
| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar.
Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at ar
ound 80 knots.
The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
Bill Judge <bjudge@gmail.com> wrote:
Matt=2C
The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4=2C -6 and -7 so wha
t
works well in those planes doesn't necessarily apply in a -8. The 8 has
spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all
have Whitman style tapered rods.
In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out that th
e
tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the wheels when
they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying interesting and less so
when you go slower. So lots of them prefer a min speed 3 pt to minimize
capital losses and hurt pride.
If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the angle
of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It seems like
everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt=2C you basically have t
o
fly the right attitude on to the pavement and continue to fly that attitude
during the roll as opposed to the C-170 and Citibria where you can get down
to a foot off the ground and totally get away with gradually putting the
stick in your gut and not bouncing at all.
You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think this
"belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the other
alternative of doing a wheelie.
So=2C unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies=2C touchin
g
down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down pat(on pavement)
you can have a butter smooth landing every single time which=2C to me=2C is
less
wear and tear than the regular crow hopping and tail first alternatives.
Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail first
becomes very easy when you need it.
I personally like wheelies because you get to pick more accurately where th
e
wheels will first touch as opposed to the "wait for it" full stall landing.
The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake
aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with the
elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator authority=2C
put the tail down=2C stick in your gut=2C and start breaking again. This is
an
advanced technique that is right out of stick and rudder=2C nobody teaches
it
anymore but it can be done and end up with very short landing rolls while
still doing a wheelie. The advantage here is that you get more control over
where you touch down by virtue of doing a wheelie and then if you need to
you can brake aggressively and end up with landing roll that is very simila
r
to a 3 pt min speed roll.
Bill
N84WJ=2C RV-8=2C 665 hrs=2C KSEE based
rv-8.blogspot.com
On Wed=2C Oct 12=2C 2011 at 12:00 AM=2C RV-List Digest Server <
rv-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> ========================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
>
> Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&
Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C
hapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV
>
>
> ========================
=======================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
=======================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RV-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8 (Matt Tucciarone)
> 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Larry Bowen)
> 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (David Burton)
> 4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Paul Rice)
> 5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Michael Kraus)
> 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (HCRV6@comcast.net)
> 7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator (Denis Walsh)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US
> From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hi everyone=2C
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn ho
w
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
> wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instruct
or
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a littl
e
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks=2C
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> From: Larry Bowen <larry@bowenaero.com>
>
> Most RV-8 pilots=2C including this one=2C prefer wheel landings.
> On Oct 11=2C 2011 8:22 AM=2C "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Hi everyone=2C
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn
> how
> > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
> wheel
> > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
> instructor
> > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like t
he
> > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a
> little
> > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are yo
ur
> > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks=2C
> > Matt
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US
> From: "David Burton" <d-burton@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel airplane sinc
e
> 100% of my time is in tricycle gear=2C here is a pearl of wisdom of the
> designer of the RV8=2C Van himself:
>
> "I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently
> land safely without a mastery of low speed control.
> While this point may be argued=2C the traditional landing
> objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum
> air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of
> Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for
> wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict
> my above statement of the "accepted" preferred
> landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook
> dictate is the 3-point landing=2C user preference is a higher
> touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so=2C one explanation
> could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing
> because it is smoother for them=2C or it could mean that
> they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."
>
> He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and comments
> about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the factor
y=2C
> with no incidents. His point is that pilots tend to land too fast for th
e
> conditions. I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A while h
e
> was landing once. Amazing.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US
> From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hey Matt=2C I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50 guy
. Man
> y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3 pointer be
ca
> use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree with t
hat.
> I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer. And yes
=2C
> you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a pass
enge
> r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet up. I
f I
> have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is eas
y to g
> rease on in that position. Visability over the nose should not be a fact
or
> in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat of c
ours
> e=2C and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have an
y prob
> lem in any tailwheel airplane. PaulRV8Flying Siren
> > From: m.tucciarone@hotmail.com
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> > Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400
> >
> m>
> >
> > Hi everyone=2C
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn
ho
> w
> > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
wh
> eel
> > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instru
ct
> or
> > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like t
he
>
> > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a lit
tl
> e
> > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are yo
ur
>
> > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks=2C
> > Matt
> >
> >
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> From: Michael Kraus <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
>
>
> I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point landings. I
am
> on
> a 2155' grass strip. The only time I did wheel landings was when I was
> carrying
> too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less flaps
> and
> carried more speed.
>
> I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind=2C 80 mph on base=2C 70 mph on final
=2C and
> bleed
> down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 11=2C 2011=2C at 8:18 AM=2C "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmai
l.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi everyone=2C
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn
> how to
> land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
> landings
> (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be
> doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II
> seaplane
> and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just t
ry
> a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a
> lot
> less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel
> at
> my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are yo
ur
> approach
> speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks=2C
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US
> From: HCRV6@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
> Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have who
> prefers wheel
> landings=2C seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6 and 99%
of
> my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I did not
> install
> the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a decent whe
el
> landing without at least one hop.
>
> RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX=2C 883 hours
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX=2C 883 hours
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday=2C October 11=2C 2011 5:18:27 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hi everyone=2C
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn ho
w
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting
> wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instruct
or
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a littl
e
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks=2C
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:14:13 PM PST US
> Subject: RV-List: Stall warning vane tone generator
> From: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
>
>
> > Listers:
> I have lost the second sheet of instructions that go with the stall
> warning kit for the RV 7 etc.
>
> If someone has it I need to know the wiring slots call out for the tone
> generator board. There are four slots. Surely they are power in=3B vane
> wire in=3B ground=3B and signal out. I just don't know which is which..
>
> If someone knows please give me the order from left to right=2C with the
> slots on the bottom.\
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Denis
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
The C190/195 and C170 series have a Wittman spring steel gear of flat
spring steel. The tubular gear of later model Cessnas and RV was a later
development. A C170B (the model I have ~700 hours in) can be landed
equally well with wheel or 3 pt landings, and preference will depend on
recency of experience, wind and loading. It seemed to ebb and flow which
I preferred. Can't comment on RV landings as the only RV's I've had the
pleasure of flying were nose wheel.
On 10/12/2011 8:16 AM, Bill Judge wrote:
> Matt,
> The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4, -6 and -7 so
> what works well in those planes doesn't necessarily apply in a -8. The
> 8 has spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all
> have Whitman style tapered rods.
>
> In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out
> that the tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the
> wheels when they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying
> interesting and less so when you go slower. So lots of them prefer a
> min speed 3 pt to minimize capital losses and hurt pride.
>
> If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the
> angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It
> seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you
> basically have to fly the right attitude on to the pavement and
> continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170
> and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and
> totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not
> bouncing at all.
>
> You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think
> this "belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the
> other alternative of doing a wheelie.
>
> So, unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies,
> touching down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down
> pat(on pavement) you can have a butter smooth landing every single
> time which, to me, is less wear and tear than the regular crow hopping
> and tail first alternatives.
>
> Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail
> first becomes very easy when you need it.
>
> I personally like wheelies because you get to pick
> more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the
> "wait for it" full stall landing.
>
> The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake
> aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with
> the elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator
> authority, put the tail down, stick in your gut, and start breaking
> again. This is an advanced technique that is right out of stick and
> rudder, nobody teaches it anymore but it can be done and end up with
> very short landing rolls while still doing a wheelie. The advantage
> here is that you get more control over where you touch down by virtue
> of doing a wheelie and then if you need to you can brake aggressively
> and end up with landing roll that is very similar to a 3 pt min speed
> roll.
>
> Bill
> N84WJ, RV-8, 665 hrs, KSEE based
> rv-8.blogspot.com <http://rv-8.blogspot.com>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM, RV-List Digest Server
> <rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>> wrote:
>
> *
>
> ========================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
>
> Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
> Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> version
> of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV
> <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV>
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV
> <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV>
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RV-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8 (Matt Tucciarone)
> 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Larry Bowen)
> 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (David Burton)
> 4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Paul Rice)
> 5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Michael Kraus)
> 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (HCRV6@comcast.net
> <mailto:HCRV6@comcast.net>)
> 7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator (Denis Walsh)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US
> From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com
> <mailto:m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>>
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
> learn how
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
> getting wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
> instructor
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
> like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt
> a little
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
> are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> From: Larry Bowen <larry@bowenaero.com <mailto:larry@bowenaero.com>>
>
> Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.
> On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone"
> <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
> learn how
> > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
> getting wheel
> > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are
> telling me I
> > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in
> a slow
> > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
> instructor
> > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
> like the
> > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I
> felt a little
> > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
> are your
> > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US
> From: "David Burton" <d-burton@comcast.net
> <mailto:d-burton@comcast.net>>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel
> airplane since
> 100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the
> designer of the RV8, Van himself:
>
> "I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently
> land safely without a mastery of low speed control.
> While this point may be argued, the traditional landing
> objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum
> air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of
> Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for
> wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict
> my above statement of the "accepted" preferred
> landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook
> dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher
> touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation
> could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing
> because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that
> they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."
>
> He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and
> comments
> about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the
> factory,
> with no incidents. His point is that pilots tend to land too fast
> for the
> conditions. I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A
> while he
> was landing once. Amazing.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US
> From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com <mailto:rice737@msn.com>>
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hey Matt=2C I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50
> guy. Man
> y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3
> pointer beca
> use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree
> with that.
> I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer.
> And yes=2C
> you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a
> passenge
> r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet
> up. If I
> have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is
> easy to g
> rease on in that position. Visability over the nose should not be
> a factor
> in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat
> of cours
> e=2C and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have
> any prob
> lem in any tailwheel airplane. PaulRV8Flying Siren
> > From: m.tucciarone@hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> > Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400
> >
> m>
> >
> > Hi everyone=2C
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
> learn ho
> w
> > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
> getting wh
> eel
> > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are
> telling me I
> > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in
> a slow
> > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
> instruct
> or
> > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
> like the
>
> > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I
> felt a littl
> e
> > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
> are your
>
> > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks=2C
> > Matt
> >
> >
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> From: Michael Kraus <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net
> <mailto:n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>>
>
>
> I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point
> landings. I am on
> a 2155' grass strip. The only time I did wheel landings was when
> I was carrying
> too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less
> flaps and
> carried more speed.
>
> I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on
> final, and bleed
> down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone"
> <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
> learn how to
> land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
> getting wheel landings
> (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be
> doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane
> and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could
> just try
> a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you
> have a lot
> less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the
> tail wheel at
> my grass strip.
> >
> > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
> are your approach
> speeds? Touchdown speeds?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US
> From: HCRV6@comcast.net <mailto:HCRV6@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
> Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have
> who prefers wheel
> landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6
> and 99% of
> my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I
> did not install
> the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a
> decent wheel
> landing without at least one hop.
>
> RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone@hotmail.com
> <mailto:m.tucciarone@hotmail.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:18:27 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
> learn how
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
> getting wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
> instructor
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
> like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt
> a little
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
> are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:14:13 PM PST US
> Subject: RV-List: Stall warning vane tone generator
> From: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net
> <mailto:denis.walsh@comcast.net>>
>
>
> > Listers:
> I have lost the second sheet of instructions that go with the stall
> warning kit for the RV 7 etc.
>
> If someone has it I need to know the wiring slots call out for the
> tone
> generator board. There are four slots. Surely they are power in;
> vane
> wire in; ground; and signal out. I just don't know which is which..
>
> If someone knows please give me the order from left to right, with the
> slots on the bottom.\
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Denis
>
>
> ==========
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
On 10-12-2011 15:16, Bill Judge wrote:
>
>
> If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the
> angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It
> seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you
> basically have to fly the right attitude on to the pavement and
> continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170
> and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and
> totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not
> bouncing at all.
Is what you describe true with the flaps down or up? If up, try a
couple notches (half flaps) and see if that helps. With the flaps down,
that portion of the wings have an "increased" angle of attack (relative
chord I think it's called) and reach the critical angle a bit sooner
than the rest of the wing. At least it sounds good in theory. I've
used this technique to good effect in Cessna 140s that have been
converterted from the original Scott 2000 tailwheel to the 3200, which
is, of course, a bigger wheel and thus lower angle of attack in the
three point position.
>
>
> I personally like wheelies because you get to pick
> more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the
> "wait for it" full stall landing.
No comment, pro or con ;) I can get my airplane within 50 or 100 feet
of intended spot when I really need to (ie 1500 foot strip carved out of
the trees.
>
> The kicker is ...edited here... and start breaking again.
I HOPE you mean braking (stopping) rather than breaking ($$$) :)
Scott
Corben Junior Ace (a whole different league than the RV!)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58
MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of
course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....
On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:
> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
>
> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is
> similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in
> around final at around 80 knots.
>
> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
>
> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
>
> Bill Judge <bjudge@gmail.com> wrote:
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
Yes it does sound a bit fast but it seems to get pretty sloppy below 70.
Like I said, I am still working it out. With enough practice, I will
eventually get it.
I do feel like I am learning to fly all over again.
Matt
From: Scott
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Landing RV-8
Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58
MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of
course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....
On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:
Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is
similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around
final at around 80 knots.
The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
Bill Judge mailto:bjudge@gmail.com wrote:
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
Two comments:
1. Each homebuilt aircraft has its own, individual ASI instrument error and static
system position error. The sum of these errors may be more than 10 kt on
some aircraft. Thus the final approach IAS that is perfect for one aircraft may
be completely wrong on another aircraft. Be careful taking someone else's
numbers as the gospel and assuming that they will work for you in your aircraft.
2. The 1.3 Vso "rule" is not universally correct. Large aircraft have historically
used an approach speed of 1.3 times the stall speed, with both speeds measured
in calibrated airspeed, not indicated airspeed (there has been a recent change
to 1.23 times the stall speed, but they changed the way the stall speed
is measured, so the approach speeds haven't really changed). Most aircraft have
large static source position errors at the stall speed, and the sense of the
usual error is to make the indicated speed lower than the calibrated speed.
I used to fly a C182 that had a ridiculously low indicated airspeed at the stall.
If I were to fly final at 1.3 times the indicated stall speed I would be
much too slow in that aircraft, and would risk having a hard landing if there
was the slightest wind gust.
We need to keep in mind that this 30% margin over the stall speed is actually quite
a few knots on a big aircraft, as the stall speed is fairly high. But 30%
of a 50 mph stall speed is a much smaller margin than 30% of a 100 mph stall
speed. A 20 mph wind gust will cause both aircraft to lose 20 mph on final,
so the smaller aircraft may need more than 30% speed margin to allow for the gusts.
In my opinion, the best way to figure out the best approach speed for your aircraft
is to simply try approaches at ever slower speeds on a calm day. Reduce
the approach speed by one or two mph each time. The plane will talk to you, and
you'll figure out where the lowest practical approach speed is. Now, for "every
day" flying, you should add a small buffer above the demonstrated lowest
practical approach speed, to allow for a bit of pilot inattention, or minor wind
gusts. In flight testing, we have to demonstrate that the aircraft can be
landed safely when the approach speed is 5 kt less than the recommended one.
Operators typically add another 5 kts over the recommended speed, so they are
actually flying 10 kt faster than was shown to be safe during flight testing.
And of course if the winds are gusting, you all know you need to add even more
speed.
And we know that you need a higher approach speed at higher weights. And we also
know that the stall speed (and thus the required approach) is higher at forward
CG than it is at aft CG. Note: the aircraft will handle differently at forward
and aft CG, and these handling changes may require different approach speeds
at different CGs.
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
On 2011-10-12, at 17:58 , Scott wrote:
> Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I
would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of course, one has
to take into account any gusts, etc....
>
>
>
> On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:
>> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
>>
>> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar.
Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around
80 knots.
>>
>> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
>>
>> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
>>
>> Bill Judge <bjudge@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Landing RV-8 |
Just a note to say I think I learn more about flying airplanes from Kevin
Horton than anyone I know, and just wanted to thank him publicly for
outstanding information.
Do not archive
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 12, 2011 23:01:11 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Landing RV-8
Two comments:
1. Each homebuilt aircraft has its own, individual ASI instrument error and
static system position error. The sum of these errors may be more than 10
kt on some aircraft. Thus the final approach IAS that is perfect for one
aircraft may be completely wrong on another aircraft. Be careful taking
someone else's numbers as the gospel and assuming that they will work for
you in your aircraft.
2. The 1.3 Vso "rule" is not universally correct. Large aircraft have
historically used an approach speed of 1.3 times the stall speed, with both
speeds measured in calibrated airspeed, not indicated airspeed (there has
been a recent change to 1.23 times the stall speed, but they changed the way
the stall speed is measured, so the approach speeds haven't really changed).
Most aircraft have large static source position errors at the stall speed,
and the sense of the usual error is to make the indicated speed lower than
the calibrated speed. I used to fly a C182 that had a ridiculously low
indicated airspeed at the stall. If I were to fly final at 1.3 times the
indicated stall speed I would be much too slow in that aircraft, and would
risk having a hard landing if there was the slightest wind gust.
We need to keep in mind that this 30% margin over the stall speed is
actually quite a few knots on a big aircraft, as the stall speed is fairly
high. But 30% of a 50 mph stall speed is a much smaller margin than 30% of
a 100 mph stall speed. A 20 mph wind gust will cause both aircraft to lose
20 mph on final, so the smaller aircraft may need more than 30% speed margin
to allow for the gusts.
In my opinion, the best way to figure out the best approach speed for your
aircraft is to simply try approaches at ever slower speeds on a calm day.
Reduce the approach speed by one or two mph each time. The plane will talk
to you, and you'll figure out where the lowest practical approach speed is.
Now, for "every day" flying, you should add a small buffer above the
demonstrated lowest practical approach speed, to allow for a bit of pilot
inattention, or minor wind gusts. In flight testing, we have to demonstrate
that the aircraft can be landed safely when the approach speed is 5 kt less
than the recommended one. Operators typically add another 5 kts over the
recommended speed, so they are actually flying 10 kt faster than was shown
to be safe during flight testing.
And of course if the winds are gusting, you all know you need to add even
more speed.
And we know that you need a higher approach speed at higher weights. And we
also know that the stall speed (and thus the required approach) is higher at
forward CG than it is at aft CG. Note: the aircraft will handle differently
at forward and aft CG, and these handling changes may require different
approach speeds at different CGs.
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
On 2011-10-12, at 17:58 , Scott wrote:
> Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH,
I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of course,
one has to take into account any gusts, etc....
>
>
>
> On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:
>> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
>>
>> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is
similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around
final at around 80 knots.
>>
>> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
>>
>> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
>>
>> Bill Judge <bjudge@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Wings and Wheels Fly-In/Cruise-In |
Join us for our first annual
*Wings and Wheels Fly-In/Cruise-In*
http://www.eaa21.org
October 15, 2011
Tri-State Aero Parking Lot on US 41 and General Aviation Ramp
Evansville Regional Airport (EVV)
Evansville, Indiana
10:00 AM to 3:00 PM
Awards Presentation at 2:00 PM
Doesn't matter if you're cruising on LAND, WATER or AIR...
Just cruise on in
/where we're making flying fun again!/
Free Admission
Food Booths
Travel and Vacation Vendors
Military, General Aviation and Experimental Aircraft Displays
Fly-In, Cruise-In
Meet the Pilots and Drivers
Door Prizes & 1/2 Pot
Great Music with DJ
Dance Exhibitions - E'ville Swing Cats
Awards for Airplanes and Cruisers
Awards to the Top 25
Award For Best Home-Built Electric Vehicle
Commemorative Vinyl Decals to All Fly-In and Cruise-In Vehicles
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